|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
![]() |
#81 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,674
|
Kewl. That's my research done! I'd already looked ½ way into the story, and your bits confirm my suspicions. O rly? There are no Yowies. There are no witnesses. People selling pictures of them are lying. No technology involved. Would you like me to draw some more? I'll bet HE has a different POV. |
__________________
![]() Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#82 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,691
|
I was in Halls Gap last New Year having a holiday with the family.
We were staying about 10km out of town on a private track off the road to Pomonal. We are on the road home after dinner one night, and an animal about 5 to 6 foot tall comes flying out of the scrub on my left and running out in front of my 4wd. I managed to break sufficiently quickly to avoid running the animal down and injuring it or my family in the car with me. When I first saw this thing (in the blink of an eye) a few possibilities as to what it was ran through my head, as I breaked sufficiently whilst retaining my line and control of the vehicle. A roo? - nah, too big for around here. An emu? - no, no beak and the head's too big Feral pig?- nah, too graceful A man? - no, it's got 4 legs! A woman? - nah - it's got no ti .. er, no the head's too big. A rabbit ? - Big rabbit! Wombat? - don't be daft Alfie, wombats dont have antlers. Antlers!?! What the... Anyway, the car was filled with much excitement. Our eldest (17 and on his 'P' plates) and my wife were very impressed with my driving skills and lightning reflexes. The daughter (15) was worried that we had frightened the poor thing. And the other two boys (13 and 11) were disappointed in missing out on a fresh kill. It turns out naturally enough that there are any number of wild deer in the area and we had happened upon a large buck. I knew of a few deer farms in the area but had no clue of the large feral population. As mentioned in a previous post of mine, I checked around with the locals the next day anyway - just to get the story proper. Now, any er.. novice (or family of novices), who might have happened upon that large beast in the scrub - in the middle of the night - with no bush skills - nor understanding of local conditions - or fauna - and with less of a look than we got, may easily have been fooled into thinking they had sighted a Yowie. All six of them would have concluded the same thing - the power of suggestion and the phenomenon of group think being what they are, after the youngest mentioned the possibility. He had them in his mind after he bought a Yowie chocolate bar earlier that day in the local general store and read about the mythical creature on the wrapper. No doubt, should our novices have called at the local pub with stories of large beasts in the bush, the locals would have had a blast! "X-mas early!" they would think rubbing their collective hands together in inward excitement. They would then have no end of fun at the expense of the unwitting witnesses of yet another run-of-the-mill event in country Australia. Yowies If you haven't got a dead one and eaten it yet, they aint real. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#83 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,674
|
This is where I got to when I said "It's a deer." There's at least trillions of them up here. ![]() Your story illustrates the point about unexpected things happening very well though. My scariest non-event was when I was sitting in a hole in the ground in Western Queensland playing soldiers and I knew for sure that there wasn't a critter for miles, and yet something was crawling towards me in the starlight. It jumped in the hole and I jumped out and my mate said "It's a frakkin' cane toad, ya moron!" I knew that, I was just trickin'. |
__________________
![]() Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#84 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,691
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#85 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,674
|
You should have seen us when we saw the Min Min light on another trip. There were ten or so big hairy blokes, with guns and stuff, and not one of us was going to go and see what it was.
We jumped back in the trucks after our smoko and never really thought about it again, until times like this. Goodness knows what it was, but as is sometimes said, Discretion is the better part of Valour. Similar to the Arthurian practice known as "Run Away!" |
__________________
![]() Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#86 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,691
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#87 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,955
|
At the end of The Sound of Music, you can see a Yowiie, on the next hill over, when the Von Trapps are getting ready to cross into Switzerland.
|
__________________
"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker "I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325 Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#88 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,674
|
So, there's evidence of Yowies in Austria, not Australia. That could explain why we've been having trouble.
Can we start again please? |
__________________
![]() Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#89 |
Featherless biped
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 18,628
|
|
__________________
'The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.' - Richard Feynman |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#90 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,674
|
This sceptical thinking is really great.
I believe we need a new thread (probably in Community) titled Evidence for Dinosaurs, Yowies, Blimps, Bigfoot, UFOs and Why the New Testament Writers Told the Truth in Austria. I'm sure much would be revealed, although I doubt any of it would be useful. |
__________________
![]() Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#91 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,691
|
Australia and Austria were one, once upon a time?
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#92 |
Thinker
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 243
|
Originally Posted by Night Walker
The sighting happened July 31. The paper reported it on August 7 along with Rex's impending visit to investigate. Nothing suss there. Sorry, I don't understand the point you are trying to make. The alleged sighting occurred 7 days before the newspaper article. Although I am sceptical about Rex's "yowie research" he does have an ear to the ground for these things and was quick off the mark to make contact with the alleged witnesses well before the newspaper article. Could you explain what is suspicious about the newspaper reporting the alleged yowie sighting along with Rex's impending visit to investigate? |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#93 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,674
|
Well, I might point out that it's suss from the outset. It's a Yowie story, for goodness sake. Specific things what seem suss: 1. Why did it take a week to report this story anyway? This is terrifying stuff and the public needs to be warned! By a short, belated article in the Manning River Times. Sure. Seems to me the story wouldn't have run at all if Gilroy hadn't urged them to publish it. 2. Gilroy might have his ear to the ground, but how did he know about this story before the report was published? How could he possibly know about the hallucinations of two silly women in Wauchope, unless he was also a miraculous bystander at Big W, Taree, the day after it happened? Like the other lady, who has also seen a Yowie. 3. The article itself is suss. Look at the photograph that accompanies it, and relate these statements to it: "I looked back up at the road and I saw ahead in the headlights this big hairy animal thing on the side of the winding road." Except that it's not a winding road. "It was about eight foot tall and four foot wide." And moves through dense forest without leaving a trail of destruction and hasn't discovered the metric system yet. "Alana said they yelled out 'holy hell' along with a list of other unmentionable words. 'We panicked,' they said." THIS bit, I can believe. "'I couldn't turn the car around because I had the trailer and the road was too narrow', Faye said." Look at the photo. You could do a uey in a 747 on that road. Although why anyone would think that stopping and doing a U-turn would be the best IA is a mystery to me. "I was [redacted)-scared and thought I better not mess with this thing in case it lifts the trailer up and tips us over the bank edge." What edge? And why would you think such a thing anyway? Experience? And finally the humdinger . . . "Keeping her foot on the accelerator and speeding past the thing, Faye said she turned to Alana and said: 'Did you see that?' She said in a scared voice: 'Do you mean that thing that looked like a Big Foot?' I said: No it was a Yowie." That's absolute rubbish. Every word of it. I'm sure there's more sussness, but that's about where I lost interest, sorry. |
__________________
![]() Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#94 |
In the Peanut Gallery
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 41,530
|
Night Walker, you must realise that most, if not all of us here would be delighted in the existance of the Yowie. We don't take this skeptical position to piss people off. We just want evidence, and also possibly have a better refined BS detector than many.
|
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#95 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,674
|
This is something I've often noticed about some bleevers (not Night Walker). They seem to think that skeptics are 'anti' things, but I'd have no more objection to the discovery of a real yowie-like creature than I would to the discovery of a new type of Bandicoot. It would be science, wouldn't it? Yowies, on the other hand, aren't in contention for discovery. They're a bloody made-up joke pretend urban legend thingy. I might say that bleevers make it all worthwhile though. ![]() |
__________________
![]() Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#96 |
Thinker
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 243
|
Yeah, I know. I want evidence too but I have to acknowledge there is none.
I am dying for a yowie sighting in my area (Gold Coast - Gympie) to investigate but the only recent ones need debunking not investigation. The one quoted under "Kilcoy" in Wikipedia was a practical joke on some poor fellow who will undoubtedly continue to get random phone calls from yowie researchers and the Gympie "yowie attack" is a hoax by a prominent "researcher". It is difficult to find credible sources of information. I appreciate your skepticism and value your input, forum readers. I am still a few posts away from being able to provide direct links so, continuing with the Mt George sighting, I would appreciate your opinions on Rex Gilroy's report on it and the "evidence" within (should be within his Mysterious Australia site). |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#97 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,674
|
Here's a credible source: Come to think of it, the bloke that wrote that is a known fruitcake. Might be best to ignore it. There are no Yowies. There are no witnesses. There is no evidence. There is nothing to investigate. |
__________________
![]() Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#98 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,110
|
No wonder there are so few Yowies. That photograph shows they have no external genitalia.
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#99 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,691
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#100 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,674
|
Yowies keep their tackle in another dimension until required for use.
There's a button on the bottom of the statue that tourists can press which illuminates said equipment by means of a quantum ray projector fitted into the base. |
__________________
![]() Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#101 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 365
|
This post helped me update my website entry on the Yowie. I couldn't find a whole lot but you guys helped.
http://spookspot.wordpress.com/2009/11/11/yowie/ [This is a website aimed for kids so I try to use small words and big ideas.] |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#102 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,674
|
I'll give that page a big fat "Good on yer, Mate!"
No nitpicks from me, and if you want any more help, please sing out. Consider yourself an Honorary Cobber. |
__________________
![]() Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#103 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 365
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#104 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,691
|
I'll reply on the "cobber" IDI.
It is an informal word to describe a friend, mate or pal. It is very Australian and the great Pharoah has just paid you the ultimate Aussie compliment. I second his sentiments. You may use his post as your entry to the most erudite and exclusive discussions in the whole world - namely the Australians only thread viz 'Australia" - in your honorary capacity. It is your "reality check" that caught my eye and I assume Akhenaten's too.
Quote:
Well done Cobber. ![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#105 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,674
|
Thank you Professor Alfie.
!00% agreement. |
__________________
![]() Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#106 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 365
|
I am humbled.
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#107 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,779
|
I cannot be bothered looking at Gilroy's "evidence" (and this is the same Gilroy who believes that there are living Dinosaurs running around in the Northern Territory), because the original story does not make a lot of sense and Gilroy has a vested interest in spinning everything unusual that happens - A Yowie took Harold Holt! you read it here first!.
We are discussing your "best most recent case" from AFAIK, the only primary source. Akhenaten commented on most of it, and I agree with his comments, but I believe he missed this bit:
Quote:
A car carrying a trailer passes it within touching distance, accelerating, to probably 50 -70 KPH and our Yowie stands still "like it was at attention". Is there a wild animal anywhere who would not even flinch when something came roaring at it at probably 60 KPH? Maybe an elephant, but I suspect it would react in some way. Norm |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#108 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,779
|
Since you have talked to Greg. please invite him to join the Board here, and let him add his POV to the discussion, since from his extensive postings on this topic, he seems to know more about this than anyone else apart from Faye and Alana (you might ask him to contact either/both of them as well, and then they can join as well and clear up all the missing bits).
Or go whole hog, and talk to Gilroy, and have him come along, join up here, and defend his position. Norm |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#109 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,691
|
That does sound like fun.
Nightwalker, I second FDUs proposal to have these friends come and join the party. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#110 |
Thinker
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 243
|
Greg is very passionate about Rex's "research" and often appears on forums to defend Rex's position. He may well be following this thread but I suspect it would be like stepping into the lion's den for him here at JREF. However, I will invite him the next time we correspond.
I have discussed my own concerns about Rex's "research" with Greg and, although I don't consider my relationship with the Gilroy camp to be hostile, I am not currently in contact with them as I don't consider their data to be reliable for a number of reasons. I loathe to label all yowie witnesses as being nuts or liars but I do acknowledge there is a very large hoaxing/joking element within the alleged reports. Is there anything more fun than scaring the sh*t out of your mates at night (and in the bush)? Who hasn't done that? Some of these spread via word of mouth become stories in their own right and take on a life of their own. The psychology and folklore of the yowie phenomenon are interesting enough even if you don't believe in the existence of these hairy men. Finding even reasonably credible and recent alleged sightings is difficult. That many "researchers" focus on the story while little is collected in the way of tangible data only further increases suspicions that it is largely bogus. It's a difficult position for a "believer" like myself to be in. Has anyone read Healy & Cropper's (2006) "The Yowie: In Search of Australia's Bigfoot"? Any opinions? |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#111 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,691
|
I mean no personal offence when I point out the following - you seem a reasonable person - but, it must be said, might as well be me..
No, it's impossible. There are no Yowies. Because it is bogus. There is no tangible evidence. It really should make it an impossible position; But I like your persistence and hope. What on earth for? Do they provide any new evidence that Yowies are real? Or is it more of the discredited sightings and disproved 'science' already proffered? |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#112 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,779
|
These are not the only options. Misinterpeting visual evidence is certainly another option - here is a true story.
In a former life, I decided to visit friends in Nambucca Heads, and because I did not have much time off available from work, my wife and I decided to drive there in one hit, and she could not drive. We were leaving from Geelong (Go Cats, Premiers again in 2010). We are talking close to 24 hours non stop (well, except for meals) here, because I had a car that was not all that keen on going over 50MPH (when it went at all). About 18 hours in "on a full moon bright, lovely night ![]() There are options which involve neither lying or any form of insanity. Norm |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#113 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,691
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#114 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,779
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#115 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,674
|
I've heard this place called a lion's den before, and Thunderdome as well, but I hope you realise that it's wrong thinking that gets mauled here, not wrong people. I count many Christians and Jews among my friends here, even though I'm a rabid atheist, and I'd never think of attacking their beliefs, save that they should attempt to convince me that I should share them. Then it's on for young and old. Having an [insert oddity] believer come here and present his case for scrutiny with an open mind and an expectation that some of his 'evidence' is going to be shredded is one of the aims of the place. It only turns to worms when we have someone lob up with 'proof' of [insert oddity] and refusing to see otherwise. Wilful ignorance is grist for the mill to some of us here, including Pharaoh, and it will be attacked remorselessly and with vigour. You're being polite to a fault. The reason for the Gilroy's data(?) being considered unreliable is that it relates to a non-existant creature. What reliability would you assign to data purporting to indicate the existence of Santa Claus? Noble enough sentiments for me. Looking at the phenomena of Yowies is completely different to looking for actual Yowies. Myself and the other professors are doing the former in this very thread. And of course you're quite correct to avoid labelling all reports and stories about Yowies as lies and hoaxes. I myself will lie through my teeth to convince a n00b that the bush is crawling with Yowies, but I have no doubt that some reports are generated by people who have had a nasty scare, and the stories that they've heard from people just like me have filled in too many blanks for them. I'd like to think that these people see sense in the cold, hard light of day and realise that what they saw was just a buggeredifiknowasaurus, whilst people such as the Gilroy's choose to make a profession out of becoming part of the joke. I'm sure they don't see it that way, of course. Well, you'll never find a credible report. Would you expect to find credible reports of Santa Claus sightings? Author's note: Well, yes you would, but only from the little kids whom we convinced of the bloke's existence in the first place. Us growed-ups are supposed to realise they're not real. ETA: Credibility can be a funny thing. Our own Gubmint, through the agency of the DoM, issues Santa Claus tracking information. I don't know how I'd go about explaining that in terms of critical thinking, so I'll just leave it out there for all to see and to speak for itself ![]() That's because the story is all there is, mate. As your suspicions increase, for the reasons that you state, you'll eventually arrive at about the same POV that Alfie, Norm and myself share. I know what you mean, but I'm going to suggest that it's a good position to be in. You're having some of your beliefs challenged and dealing with it quite well. I sincerely hope you end up becoming a Yowie Unbeliever™ just like me, but in any case I admire your tenacity in seeking your own answers. Automatically taking our word for things would serve you far less well, especially me. (I haz the fibs, occasionally, when the mood calls for it) Someone probably has, but I'll bet it wasn't any of us, and if it was, I'll further bet Melbourne to a rusty rabbit trap that if they have, it wasn't with a view to tracking down a real, live Yowie, being as how there's no such thing. Cheers, Dave |
__________________
![]() Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#116 |
Thinker
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 243
|
I also try to get out into the bush as often as I can. Bushwalking at night is an experience and very enjoyable - far safer than walking the 'burbs after dark. No yowie activity around my neck of the woods to report, though.
If yowies exist now or in the past what could they be? There is nothing remotely in the Australian fossil record to even suggest the possibility of a large man-like marsupial having evolved here. Cross that one out. Very little is known about Gigantopithecus from the two fossil jaw bones and hundred+ teeth (rumoured to be sold as "Dragon's Teeth" on the Asian exotic black market). A close relative to the orang-utan, Gigantopithecus may not even have been bipedal. Habituating northern India and southern China it is difficult to see how it could have even accidently made it to Australia (eg swept out to sea after a tsunami). Cross that one out until much more information is known. The archaeolgical jury is out as to whether Homo floresiensis represents an archaic species or deformed modern population. More information needed. That leaves the Homo erectus-type populations of south-east Asia. When modern humans left Africa they expanded and travelled east along the Asian coastline reaching south-east Asia around 85k - 75k years ago. Would these modern humans have encountered the resident erectus populations? Would relations always have been hostility over competition to resources or would there have been at least occassions for co-operation between these 2 distinct forms of humans? If so, is it possible that the modern humans who migrated across the Wallace Line 65k-50k years ago were accompanied by some of the local erectus populations? |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#117 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,691
|
No
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#118 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,674
|
No
|
__________________
![]() Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#119 |
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sapporo ichiban!
Posts: 9,240
|
|
__________________
Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer. 2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum. I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6 |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#120 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,674
|
|
__________________
![]() Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
Bookmarks |
Thread Tools | |
|
|