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Old 19th January 2010, 04:39 PM   #161
idoubtit
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New post about the Yowie from Darren Naish.
http://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzool...an_bigfoot.php
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Old 20th January 2010, 02:22 AM   #162
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I like this sentiment:

"Maybe all the reports represent misidentifications, hoaxes and the manifestations of cultural stereotypes or something, but even if this is so, there's still an interesting phenomenon here that's worthy of investigation. Those of us predominantly interested in zoology sometimes forget that cryptozoological reports might tell us more about folklore, psychology, witness perception and/or cultural transmission than anything else (see Meurger 1995, Meurger & Gagnon 1988). As a result I still think that investigation of subjects like the Yowie is worthwhile, and within the remit of science. Please remember this as you read the following: I'm nowhere near happy with the idea that the Yowie might be real, but - whatever the phenomenon represents - it's interesting."

http://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzool...an_bigfoot.php
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Old 20th January 2010, 05:31 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Night Walker View Post
I like this sentiment:

"Maybe all the reports represent misidentifications, hoaxes and the manifestations of cultural stereotypes or something, but even if this is so, there's still an interesting phenomenon here that's worthy of investigation. Those of us predominantly interested in zoology sometimes forget that cryptozoological reports might tell us more about folklore, psychology, witness perception and/or cultural transmission than anything else (see Meurger 1995, Meurger & Gagnon 1988). As a result I still think that investigation of subjects like the Yowie is worthwhile, and within the remit of science. Please remember this as you read the following: I'm nowhere near happy with the idea that the Yowie might be real, but - whatever the phenomenon represents - it's interesting."

http://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzool...an_bigfoot.php


I don't disagree, but I want to highlight part of the above quote.


Quote:
Those of us predominantly interested in zoology sometimes forget that cryptozoological reports might tell us more about folklore, psychology, witness perception and/or cultural transmission than anything else . . .


Quote:
. . .within the remit of science


I agree strongly with this, but in doing so I note that the 'researchers' who claim that Yowies exist have little expertise in any of these areas, and certainly not in all of them.
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Old 4th February 2010, 08:27 PM   #164
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Yowie Eye-Shine

By far the most commonly reported aspect of alleged yowie eye-shine is the distinctive red colour. Conventional eye-shine from nocturnal animals is caused by the tapetum lucidum which is not present in humans and apes. The closest thing which approximates it is the red-eye effect from flash photography.

Because the light of the flash occurs too fast for the pupil to close, much of the very bright light from the flash passes into the eye through the pupil, reflects off the fundus at the back of the eyeball, and out through the pupil. The camera records this reflected light. The main cause of the red color is the ample amount of blood in the choroid which nourishes the back of the eye and is located behind the retina. The blood in the retinal circulation is far less than in the choroid, and plays virtually no role. The eye contains several photostable pigments that all absorb in the short wavelength region, and hence contribute somewhat to the red eye effect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red-eye_effect

It is highly unlikely that a relict primate or hominid species could re-evolve the tapetum lucidum in such a relatively short span of time. Given the high degree of fictionalising and exaggerationin many alleged yowie sightings it is highly likely that many of the reported incidents of yowie eye-shine are false and/or misidentification (purposely misidentified or otherwise).

However, one lesser reported aspect of nocturnal yowie reports is of yowies showing an intense dislike (discomfort?) of bright lights. This is what could be expected in the absence of a tapetum lucidum and is certainly more consistent with how an ape or human would react to light when their pupils have dilated in the dark.

If yowies are relic hominids - WLH 50, Homo erectus - then perhaps it is possible that their enlarged occipital lobes (the occipital bun) allows voluntary control of their pupils rather than the standard human reflex of constricting the pupils in the presence of bright light. This would present both the red-eye effect and an aversion to the light. Such voluntary control of the mechanics of the eye have been lost by modern humans (no occipital bun) who are more active during the daylight and who acquired a greater mastery of fire to overcome the darkness of night.

What do you guys think? Feel free to pick holes in my reasoning or to correct any misconceptions (other than "yowies don't exist" - consider this a hypothetical discussion).
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Old 4th February 2010, 08:40 PM   #165
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you are saying is...

Because Yowies eyes are for nocturnal use, they don't like bright lights.
And because they don't like bright lights they dont come near humans or their night tools.
And it's because of this we don't see them.

Is that about it?
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Old 4th February 2010, 09:11 PM   #166
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Yowies have red eye-shine? Is it possible that they are actually large Siamese cats? Are Yowies often associated with unearthly yowling?
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Old 5th February 2010, 01:18 AM   #167
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Yowies have exactly the same eyeshine characteristics as wyverns, centaurs, leprechauns and Cornish pixies.
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Old 5th February 2010, 04:31 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Night Walker View Post


What do you guys think? Feel free to pick holes in my reasoning or to correct any misconceptions (other than "yowies don't exist" - consider this a hypothetical discussion).


Which is faster, a Federation Galaxy Class Starship or a Klingon Bird of Prey?

The question makes as much sense as a question about Yowie physiology.
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Old 5th February 2010, 03:26 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
Which is faster, a Federation Galaxy Class Starship or a Klingon Bird of Prey?
That question would surely create much debate among trekkies (true fans/believers).

If I wanted the opinions of the yowie faithful I would have asked on a "believers" forum. I believe that I have stated my position on yowies firmly enough and I am at least attempting to make some degree of sense from a field of enquiry more used to dealing with nonsense.

I get it that you guys think/know the yowie doesn't exist, however IF there is any kernal of truth to the yowie phenomenon other than myth-making and misidentification then I would like to understand it. Is this not an appropriate thing to do? Is this not an appropriate forum to discuss such hypotheticals - What is possible as opposed to what is not?
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Old 5th February 2010, 05:49 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Night Walker View Post
That question would surely create much debate among trekkies (true fans/believers).


And a great deal of mirth for everyone else. I love Star Trek myself, but comparison of the performance of pretend starships is childish and nonsensical.


Originally Posted by Night Walker View Post
If I wanted the opinions of the yowie faithful I would have asked on a "believers" forum. I believe that I have stated my position on yowies firmly enough and I am at least attempting to make some degree of sense from a field of enquiry more used to dealing with nonsense.


You can't make sense out of a fairytale. No matter how you phrase your enquiries, there are no sensible answers to the physiology of a myth.


Originally Posted by Night Walker View Post
I get it that you guys think/know the yowie doesn't exist, however IF there is any kernal of truth to the yowie phenomenon other than myth-making and misidentification then I would like to understand it.


There isn't. No if's, no but's no Yowies.


Originally Posted by Night Walker View Post
Is this not an appropriate thing to do? Is this not an appropriate forum to discuss such hypotheticals - What is possible as opposed to what is not?


This is an appropriate place to discuss the evidence* for Yowies. What have you got?

I can't say that Yowies are impossible, any more than I can say there's no life on Jupiter, but as a working knowledge, "No way!" works pretty well.



* Anecdotes are not evidence. WLH50 is not evidence. Newspaper sensationalism is not evidence.

In fact, given the extraordinary nature of a fairytale come to life, I'd say the only evidence that would work is an actual Yowie. Nothing less will work for me, I'm afraid.

Maybe Professors Norm and Alfie will be more amenable, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.
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Old 5th February 2010, 07:12 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
Maybe Professors Norm and Alfie will be more amenable, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.
I will call your farm and raise the outback.

I would go a step further. Yowies are impossible.
But they are a good source of piss-taking fodder that is hopeful foreigners.

NW. You seem like a really decent bloke, but your hypotheticals are little more than that, hypotheticals. We could discuss the possibility of rhonocerous roaming the savannas of Australia too, but the fact is, there aren't any rhino's and we don't have savannas to support them. But it would be a lot of fun (I s'pose) to speculate on it....

As our learned pharaoh states, we would need some proof, not conjecture. And to date there is absolutely nothing with any semblance of credibility to support the existence of yowies.

Bunyips however are a completely different thing.

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Old 5th February 2010, 07:35 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
NW. You seem like a really decent bloke, but your hypotheticals are little more than that, hypotheticals. We could discuss the possibility of rhonocerous roaming the savannas of Australia too, but the fact is, there aren't any rhino's and we don't have savannas to support them. But it would be a lot of fun (I s'pose) to speculate on it....
Oh yeah? - This is a 15 minute drive from my place:



However, seriously, I agree with both Akhenaten and Alfie. Hypotheticals can be fun, but are usually confined to Philosophy and not hard science subjects. I will state that anything is possible, provided it is within the laws of Physics and Chemistry, and if I liked, I could probably make up a plausable explanation for Nessie. I could speculate about life on Io, or other Jupiter moons, but until we actually go there and investigate, a hypothetical about life forms on Io is a waste of time.

But the real problem is that the Yowie is as real as Dropbears. It has the exact same problem as Bigfoot has - no scat, no roadkill, no pictures, no spore, no bones, no DNA, no anything. No evidence whatsoever.

Australian Aboriginals are among the best trackers of anything natural in the outback, and in bushland - 50,000 years of experience is pretty helpful in handing down precedent, and training future trackers - they could tell you how much earlier a Goanna rested at a certain spot, and if it had a broken leg or not, and even how fast it was travelling, when it was moving.

There is, AFAIK, no, none, zip, nada, zero legitimate dreamtime Yowie legends, and no actual post European Invasion Yowie claims from any of the Aboriginal populations. Dropbears..., well be more careful, because they might just get you when you are in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Yowie sightings are like feral Panther sightings in Gippsland and the Otways- people claim to have seen them, and the evidence adds up to zero. Third rate photos, useless eye witness reports, nothing at all which adds up to "evidence" There is nobody behind these particular curtains.

Norm

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Old 5th February 2010, 10:49 PM   #173
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We could use a mathematician here. I think there's gotta be a formula to predict the likelihood of scientific verification of a beast based on the number of anecdotes. You know, the first couple of anecdotes you figure, "meh." When you get a few more, you start thinking, "Hmm...could be interesting." Once they start piling in and no scientific evidence comes to light, you're back to "meh." When they have gone on for years, you're going "aaaahhhh! Will you people shut up already? It ain't gonna happen!"

I said essentially the same thing to a friend the other day in casual conversation: "You know, if there have been thousands of sightings of something for years, then the lack of solid evidence is even more damning. I can understand getting excited after the first few sightings, but after a while you gotta figure it's a bunch of ********. Of course, the reason it persists is because people like talking about it, both for and against. Sort a like games of who would you do? in college, only in those games we all knew nobody would be doing anybody."
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Old 5th February 2010, 11:26 PM   #174
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UncaYimmy, an upside down Bell Curve works just fine.

I would cite Elvis sightings.

Norm

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Old 5th February 2010, 11:56 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
UncaYimmy, an upside down Bell Curve works just fine.

I would cite Elvis sightings.
There's some pretty solid evidence behind Elvis sightings. Take the example below:



The picture is clear. The location is known (Alice Cooperstown in downtown Phoenix). The conditions are easily duplicated. There's no doubt that Elvis took this picture of me at a gig.
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Old 6th February 2010, 03:02 AM   #176
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There is a strange orange-like glow just past the inside of your left forearm.
It might be a yowie's reflective eye - or at the very least something paranormal.
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Old 6th February 2010, 05:21 AM   #177
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Ok. Thank you for your time.

If I get any evidence I'll let you know. I know you guys won't be holding your breath for that but I do appreciate honest feedback.

Respect.
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Old 6th February 2010, 05:51 AM   #178
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One more thing:

If any of you with a sceptical interest in yowies would like to participate in any investigations (e.g. interviewing alleged witnesses from future newspaper articles) in your local area send me a PM. I am willing and able to travel between Gympie and the Gold Coast to do so but that still leaves most of the east coast that I cannot easily access. You'd be able to nominate your preferred area for your own convenience.

I'd rather such things were examined by hard-nosed realists than dreamy-eyed believers...

Ed
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Old 6th February 2010, 06:40 AM   #179
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<derail - fromdownunder - is your pic of the Western Plains Zoo in Dubbo?
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Old 6th February 2010, 07:03 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Night Walker View Post
One more thing:

If any of you with a sceptical interest in yowies . . .

my bolding


I'd love to see a definition of this.

I think 'skeptical lack of interest' would be more accurate. As in, there's nothing to be interested in.

Except, as you've pointed out yourself, as a study into why people believe weird stuff.


Originally Posted by Night Walker View Post
. . . would like to participate in any investigations (e.g. interviewing alleged witnesses from future newspaper articles) in your local area send me a PM.


I hope you've cleared out your inbox, mate. I'm sure it's about to be flooded by all of the potential volunteer Yowie hunters here.


Originally Posted by Night Walker View Post
I am willing and able to travel between Gympie and the Gold Coast to do so but that still leaves most of the east coast that I cannot easily access. You'd be able to nominate your preferred area for your own convenience.


Professor Alfie and myself live in Melbourne, and Professor Norm appears to live in Dubbo or Peak Hill.

I'm not sure, but I don't think either of these are notorious Yowie-spotting areas.

In Gympie, however, there are few things that I woud doubt. For instance, many believe that the Gympie Pyramid was built by Yowies.


Originally Posted by Night Walker View Post
I'd rather such things were examined by hard-nosed realists than dreamy-eyed believers...

Ed

Already done, but you're still tryin' to convince us that we're too hard-nosed.


Originally Posted by philkensebben View Post
<derail - fromdownunder - is your pic of the Western Plains Zoo in Dubbo?


Speaking out of turn on Professor Norm's behalf, yes.

Speaking out of turn for everyone, don't sweat the derail thing. By convention, any thread with two or more Australians in it is automatically deemed to be a derail from Post #1 onwards.
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Old 6th February 2010, 12:33 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by philkensebben View Post
<derail - fromdownunder - is your pic of the Western Plains Zoo in Dubbo?
It's Werribee Park Open Range Zoo. I live in Lara, near Geelong (go catters! Premiers again in 2010)

Norm.
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Old 6th February 2010, 12:59 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
It's Werribee Park Open Range Zoo. I live in Lara, near Geelong (go catters! Premiers again in 2010)

Norm.


I was close!

Right continent and everything!


When I first saw that pic, I thought, "That's funny, I thought Professor Norm was a Vic."

What's really embarrassing is that I've been to Werribee heaps (I like the Lions) and Western Plains a couple of times.

I have teh Dumb!


Apologies to Night Walker for the bum steer, and to yourself for thinkin' you were a cockroach.

As penance:



Go Catters!
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Old 6th February 2010, 03:43 PM   #183
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Only three flags in 50 years! And how many lost GFs?
Come talk to me when you are approaching double figures.
Cats. Yawn. Flash in the pan.
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Old 6th February 2010, 04:15 PM   #184
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I only did that to make up for insulting Professor Norm by thinking he was from New South.

I'm a Blue's man, which is probably even more embarrassing.
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Old 6th February 2010, 05:02 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Only three flags in 50 years! And how many lost GFs?
Come talk to me when you are approaching double figures.
Cats. Yawn. Flash in the pan.
And two in the last three years (Re: lost GFs, Principal Tamzarian let us never speak of this again). besides, to get back on topic, we have our very own resident Yowie - Moons....



Norm
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Old 6th February 2010, 05:11 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
I only did that to make up for insulting Professor Norm by thinking he was from New South.
I have friends in Nambucca Heads, and Macksville. I love the place. If I ever get up there again, I will ask them to take me Yowie hunting. Can't stand Sydney (or even Melbourne any more - commuted to, and worked there for over 30 years). Far too big for a Lara Lad.

Norm
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Old 6th February 2010, 05:18 PM   #187
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I hear ya! My city living days are long behind me.

By coincidence, I used to have rellos at South West Rocks. I imagine they're long dead by now, which is generally a good thing for rellos to be.

They had the Post Office there at one stage (it was just a little agency-type affair at the side of their house). Use to flood up to the bloody ceiling every other year, and it's the only place in Australia I've ever seen fresh-water crabs.

No Yowies, that I recall.
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Old 6th February 2010, 05:19 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
And two in the last three years (Re: lost GFs, Principal Tamzarian let us never speak of this again). besides, to get back on topic, we have our very own resident Yowie - Moons....



Norm


Snork
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Old 6th February 2010, 05:23 PM   #189
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Without reading the whole thread:

If "Bigfoot" doesn't exist, then why does EVERY continent have its own version...?

And not just modern people claim to have 'seen' them. You'd be hard pressed to find a culture 'close to nature' that does not contain such tales or myths, if that's what they are.

*NOT an attempt to derail the thread. Just wondering how "skeptics" respond to that argument.
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Old 6th February 2010, 05:28 PM   #190
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Stupid is international.
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Old 6th February 2010, 05:31 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Stupid is international.
No doubt about that...but is "blind" too?
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Old 6th February 2010, 05:34 PM   #192
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Actually that was pretty unkind of me. My point is I suppose that myths are not halted by borders, humanity is global and there are common threads of belief across all tribes, nations and continents.

There will always be belief based ideas that lack evidence, it is part of what we are.
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Old 6th February 2010, 05:34 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
No doubt about that...but is "blind" too?
No thats Love
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Old 6th February 2010, 05:35 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
No doubt about that...but is "blind" too?
What do you mean "blind"?
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Old 6th February 2010, 05:40 PM   #195
Marduk
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
*NOT an attempt to derail the thread. Just wondering how "skeptics" respond to that argument.
The usual sceptic way of requiring at least some credible evidence
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Old 6th February 2010, 06:11 PM   #196
fromdownunder
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Without reading the whole thread:

If "Bigfoot" doesn't exist, then why does EVERY continent have its own version...?

And not just modern people claim to have 'seen' them. You'd be hard pressed to find a culture 'close to nature' that does not contain such tales or myths, if that's what they are.

*NOT an attempt to derail the thread. Just wondering how "skeptics" respond to that argument.
Since you did not read the thread, you might want to note that on this thread, I have already noted that there are no Australian Aboriginal Dreamtime legends, nor post European occupation Aboriginal discussions regarding the Yowie. I have also made this comment before and on this and other threads about legendary exotics. I think I have done this more than once.

Perhaps, just maybe, possibly, you should do at least minimal (read the thread) research before butting in to something you know nothing about.

ETA The above is actually on this page, if you are running on 40 posts per page, so it appears that you did no read anything at all. Is this typical of you?

ETA again. There is not a single Aboriginal culture. The different cultures (and languages, and lifestyles) range over a huge continent, which never naturally contained a lot of people (until WE got here), simply because it could not contain a lot of hunter/gatherers. Limited resources, limited population, and at leat read my post on tracking, and the ability of Australian Aboriginals to find literally anything that would keep them alive.

Norm

Last edited by fromdownunder; 6th February 2010 at 06:21 PM.
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Old 6th February 2010, 06:43 PM   #197
King of the Americas
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
Since you did not read the thread, you might want to note that on this thread, I have already noted that there are no Australian Aboriginal Dreamtime legends, nor post European occupation Aboriginal discussions regarding the Yowie. I have also made this comment before and on this and other threads about legendary exotics. I think I have done this more than once.

Perhaps, just maybe, possibly, you should do at least minimal (read the thread) research before butting in to something you know nothing about.

ETA The above is actually on this page, if you are running on 40 posts per page, so it appears that you did no read anything at all. Is this typical of you?

ETA again. There is not a single Aboriginal culture. The different cultures (and languages, and lifestyles) range over a huge continent, which never naturally contained a lot of people (until WE got here), simply because it could not contain a lot of hunter/gatherers. Limited resources, limited population, and at leat read my post on tracking, and the ability of Australian Aboriginals to find literally anything that would keep them alive.

Norm
My apologies, really.

I was hoping for a singular answer, from THE bigfoot skeptic, and wasn't interested in getting into a long drawn out discussion.

The question struck me from another thread, about how different unconnected cultures had similar buildings of similar sizes.

I've heard similar stories about bigfoot, the world over-

They have many names:

Yeti, Almasti, Yeren, Yowie, Orang Kubu, Beruang Rambai, Orang Gadang, Zana, Ameranthropoides loysi, Mono Rei, Grey Man, rakshasa, meh-the, abominable snowman, Sasquatch, Jangali Mosh, Barmanu, Chuchunaa, wildman, Yahoo, Great Hair Moehau, Orang Dalam, Orang Sanat, kapre, waray-waray, orang gugu, beruang rambai, batutut, atu, sedapa, mawa, Malay, Sedapa, Momo, MacDhu, and Liath Mori.
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Old 6th February 2010, 06:53 PM   #198
Hallo Alfie
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
I've heard similar stories about bigfoot, the world over-

They have many names:

Yeti, Almasti, Yeren, Yowie, Orang Kubu, Beruang Rambai, Orang Gadang, Zana, Ameranthropoides loysi, Mono Rei, Grey Man, rakshasa, meh-the, abominable snowman, Sasquatch, Jangali Mosh, Barmanu, Chuchunaa, wildman, Yahoo, Great Hair Moehau, Orang Dalam, Orang Sanat, kapre, waray-waray, orang gugu, beruang rambai, batutut, atu, sedapa, mawa, Malay, Sedapa, Momo, MacDhu, and Liath Mori.
And it seems to me they can all be collectively placed under one name.
MYTH.

Especially the Yowie, which (as professor Norm has explained already) only found a voice after European settlement.
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Old 6th February 2010, 06:58 PM   #199
fromdownunder
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
The question struck me from another thread, about how different unconnected cultures had similar buildings of similar sizes.

I've heard similar stories about bigfoot, the world over-
Perhaps, as on that other thread, it is because logic dictated that these were better designs than ones which fell over, and somehow logic took over, and people started saying "let's build something that will stay up, and not collapse". Rinse and repeat - eventually you will find something (homo sapien sapien was not actually dumb) that does stay up - see Sprague de Camp's The Ancient Architects.

To stay close to topic (us Aussies are born to go off topic) there are also world wide myths about lake monsters (and oddly enough, the areas in which they are promoted attract a lot of tourists, but no actual evidence of lake monsters), so do you accept lake monsters (living pliosaurs) as valid?

Norm

Last edited by fromdownunder; 6th February 2010 at 07:06 PM. Reason: spalling
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Old 6th February 2010, 07:13 PM   #200
King of the Americas
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
Perhaps, as on that other thread, it is because logic dictated that these were better designs than ones which fell over, and somehow logic took over, and people started saying "let's build something that will stay up, and not collapse". Rinse and repeat - eventually you will find something (homo sapien sapien was not actually dumb) that does stay up - see Sprague de Camp's The Ancient Architects.

To stay close to topic (us Aussies are born to go off topic) there are also world wide myths about lake monsters (and oddly enough, the areas in which they are promoted attract a lot of tourists, but no actual evidence of lake monsters), so do you accept lake monsters (living pliosaurs) as valid?

Norm
...I don't think numerous sightings throughout history excise the possibility...
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