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Old 8th October 2016, 06:43 AM   #321
John Jones
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- I think that it does (in a sense), but I'm just saying that according to the scientific model, my self comes out of nowhere. Science would say that there is no pool of potential selves, and reproducing the exact chemistry would produce a copy of me, but not Me. Where in the hell did I come from? Nowhere!
- I was created. But, I wasn't created by any God. Each new consciousness just brings with it a brand new self.
What makes you an authority on the scientific model? Nothing that I can see indicates that you even understand it.
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Old 8th October 2016, 06:51 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I think that it does (in a sense), but I'm just saying that according to the scientific model, my self comes out of nowhere.

You're wrong.

Quote:
Science would say that there is no pool of potential selves, and reproducing the exact chemistry would produce a copy of me, but not Me.

Yes, an identical copy of something is not the thing it is a copy of; it is a second, identical, thing.

Quote:
Where in the hell did I come from? Nowhere!

Nope. Your consciousness is a process going on in your brain.

Quote:
- I was created. But, I wasn't created by any God. Each new consciousness just brings with it a brand new self.

In the model you are trying to attack, consciousness is a process. The "self" does not exist other than as that process.
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Last edited by Mojo; 8th October 2016 at 06:53 AM.
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Old 8th October 2016, 07:03 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- I think that it does (in a sense), but I'm just saying that according to the scientific model, my self comes out of nowhere.
No, it does not say that, it says your self arises from the chemistry of your brain. Repeating your falsehood does not make it true.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Science would say that there is no pool of potential selves
Correct. 'Potential selves is some bizarre concept you created to beg the question of souls.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
, and reproducing the exact chemistry would produce a copy of me, but not Me.
Correct. They would not be the same carbon atoms for example.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Where in the hell did I come from? Nowhere!
Repeating your falsehood does not make it true.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I was created. But, I wasn't created by any God.
Correct, it was sperm and an egg.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Each new consciousness just brings with it a brand new self.
Brings with it???
What does that even mean?
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Old 8th October 2016, 07:04 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- I'm claiming that by 'unifying' the parts, an emergent property creates a "whole," ...

You have that completely backwards.
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Old 8th October 2016, 07:16 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
You have that completely backwards.
Indeed, and I suspect that's intentional. Because, obviously, if the Emergent property is created by the parts unifying, then the Emergent property stops with the component parts stop.
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Old 8th October 2016, 07:36 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- I think that it does (in a sense), but I'm just saying that according to the scientific model, my self comes out of nowhere. Science would say that there is no pool of potential selves, and reproducing the exact chemistry would produce a copy of me, but not Me. Where in the hell did I come from? Nowhere!
Not from nowhere. You came from the same places as your parts came from:

The biological processes and random chances that created your body.
The incidences, experiences, and random chances that your current mind.

Quote:
- I was created. But, I wasn't created by any God. Each new consciousness just brings with it a brand new self.
You might use the word 'created' although it is usually connoted with a willful action.

But your consciousness did not bring a brand new self. Your consciousness is part of the self, and the self is constantly evolving. Every second of your life brings a new self.

Hans
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Old 8th October 2016, 08:51 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by jond View Post
Indeed, and I suspect that's intentional. Because, obviously, if the Emergent property is created by the parts unifying, then the Emergent property stops with the component parts stop.

It's just another attempt to beg the question.
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Old 8th October 2016, 09:30 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
I'm claiming that by 'unifying' the parts, an emergent property creates a "whole,"...
No, that's not what it means to be an emergent property.

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And, that's how (I claim that) being an emergent property makes a difference.
Asked and answered. You're trying to trump up a difference by redefining what your critics have said and then cramming it back in their mouths. That's the straw-man fallacy. Quit it.
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Old 8th October 2016, 09:43 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
I think that it does (in a sense), but I'm just saying that according to the scientific model, my self comes out of nowhere.
No. It emerges from the system. If I make a snowball, does the white color or round shape "come out of nowhere?"

Quote:
Science would say that there is no pool of potential selves...
Such a statement simply makes no sense in the scientific hypothesis. The white color is an emergent property of snowfall. There is no pool of "potential white." The crenelated conical shape of Mt Ranier is an emergent property of the processes that created the mountain. There is no pool of "potential shape."

You're still trying to shoehorn the notion of the self as a "thing" into the scientific hypothesis and then complaining because the hypothesis cannot explain that thing. That's as straw-manny as it gets, Jabba.

Quote:
and reproducing the exact chemistry would produce a copy of me, but not Me.
Capitalizing words doesn't fix your problem, Jabba. Reproducing the organism exactly will create a system from which emergent properties will emerge identically.

If I make a snowball, and then make another snowball, both are white. There are not two "whites." If I magically have the capability to produce two quantumly identical snowballs, they will be identically white down to the smallest ability to observe them.

Quote:
Where in the hell did I come from? Nowhere!
Under the scientific hypothesis your sense of "self" emerged as a property of a functioning brain. Stop trying to think of the self as a soul. Under the scientific hypothesis, it is no such thing. The sense of self under H is an abstract property.

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Each new consciousness just brings with it a brand new self.
No. You don't understand the scientific hypothesis at all.
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Old 8th October 2016, 10:49 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- I think that it does (in a sense), but I'm just saying that according to the scientific model, my self comes out of nowhere. Science would say that there is no pool of potential selves, and reproducing the exact chemistry would produce a copy of me, but not Me. Where in the hell did I come from?
You came from your brain, which came from a biological process called sexual reproduction.

When I strike a match, where does the flame come from?
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Old 8th October 2016, 11:46 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Not from nowhere. You came from the same places as your parts came from:

The biological processes and random chances that created your body.
The incidences, experiences, and random chances that your current mind.



You might use the word 'created' although it is usually connoted with a willful action.

But your consciousness did not bring a brand new self. Your consciousness is part of the self, and the self is constantly evolving. Every second of your life brings a new self.

Hans
Hans,
- But, it brought with it some thing, process or illusion that never existed before, that continues to exist while this brain is conscious and healthy, that will cease to exist when this brain dies, and that will never exist again. And personally, whatever this 'thing' is, it cares, is happy that it came about, and that it has continued so far -- and also, it doesn't want to cease to exist forever.
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Old 8th October 2016, 12:04 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Hans,
- But, it brought with it some thing, process or illusion that never existed before, that continues to exist while this brain is conscious and healthy, that will cease to exist when this brain dies, and that will never exist again. And personally, whatever this 'thing' is, it cares, is happy that it came about, and that it has continued so far -- and also, it doesn't want to cease to exist forever.
That's nice. But reality doesn't care about what you want.
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Old 8th October 2016, 12:13 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
But, it brought with it some thing, process or illusion...
It is a process.

Quote:
that never existed before...
That's like saying there was no such thing as white until you made a snowball.

Quote:
And personally, whatever this 'thing' is, it cares, is happy that it came about, and that it has continued so far --
All aspects of the process. Emotion is a part of the self, and an emergent property of a functioning brain. That you experience them subjectively doesn't make them external or self-existent, no matter how badly you wish it to be.

Quote:
and also, it doesn't want to cease to exist forever.
Which specific terror, of course, is all this is about. Remember the part where you told us you couldn't handle it emotionally if it turned out you couldn't prove mathematically the existence of a soul? Yeah, that's the part that's making you ignore and/or misrepresent your critics.
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Old 8th October 2016, 12:24 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by jond View Post
That's nice. But reality doesn't care about what you want.
You mean real mathematical proofs don't end with quod erat desiderandum?
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Old 8th October 2016, 12:35 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Hans,
- But, it brought with it some thing, process or illusion that never existed before, that continues to exist while this brain is conscious and healthy, that will cease to exist when this brain dies, and that will never exist again. And personally, whatever this 'thing' is, it cares, is happy that it came about, and that it has continued so far -- and also, it doesn't want to cease to exist forever.
Well, it may not want that, but it is (usually) smart enough to realize that it will not exist forever.

Hans
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Old 8th October 2016, 12:59 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
You mean real mathematical proofs don't end with quod erat desiderandum?
Oh! You speak French!
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Old 8th October 2016, 02:36 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Hans,
- But, it brought with it some thing, process or illusion that never existed before, that continues to exist while this brain is conscious and healthy, that will cease to exist when this brain dies, and that will never exist again. And personally, whatever this 'thing' is, it cares, is happy that it came about, and that it has continued so far -- and also, it doesn't want to cease to exist forever.
Can you think of any reason why this fear of no longer existing is relevant to the topic of this thread?
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Old 8th October 2016, 02:42 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
You mean real mathematical proofs don't end with quod erat desiderandum?
Lol! It took me a moment of reflection, but it was worth it.
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Old 8th October 2016, 02:53 PM   #339
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Saying the observer was "brought" is begging the question.
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Old 8th October 2016, 03:04 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by jond View Post
Oh! You speak French!

No, Latin. That satin doll.

Or maybe Italian.
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Old 8th October 2016, 03:08 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Hans,
- But, it brought with it some thing, process or illusion that never existed before, that continues to exist while this brain is conscious and healthy, that will cease to exist when this brain dies, and that will never exist again.

You might have something there.

Quote:
And personally, whatever this 'thing' is, it cares, is happy that it came about, and that it has continued so far -- and also, it doesn't want to cease to exist forever.

The universe doesn't care what it wants.
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Old 8th October 2016, 03:23 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
No, Latin. That satin doll.

Or maybe Italian.
(sorry, obscure Thomas Dolby reference...)
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Old 8th October 2016, 03:48 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by jond View Post
(sorry, obscure Thomas Dolby reference...)

(Obscure Duke Ellington reference)
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Old 8th October 2016, 04:14 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
(Obscure Duke Ellington reference)
Not that obscure
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Old 8th October 2016, 05:45 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Hans,
- But, it brought with it some thing, process or illusion that never existed before, that continues to exist while this brain is conscious and healthy, that will cease to exist when this brain dies, and that will never exist again. And personally, whatever this 'thing' is, it cares, is happy that it came about, and that it has continued so far -- and also, it doesn't want to cease to exist forever.

Are you the same person you were 30 years ago? Do you have the same characteristics, likes and dislikes, worries, loves, memories?

If not, then I don't think you've supported your mere assertion that the self is a thing at all.
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Old 8th October 2016, 06:23 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by jond View Post
Oh! You speak French!
..."Italian"...
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Old 9th October 2016, 06:37 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
You came from your brain, which came from a biological process called sexual reproduction.

When I strike a match, where does the flame come from?
Dave,
- Consciousness came from my brain. My consciousness naturally came with, or produced, a particular self -- ME. If we were able to reproduce my brain, consciousness would again come with it, but this consciousness would not be ME. This would be a brand new self. We would not get the same self via the same chemistry.
- The point is that there is ‘something’ here that never existed before -- in any form whatsoever. In that sense, it came from nowhere. And, there was no limited pool of potential selves from which this self came. And, if there is no limited pool of potential selves, the number of potential selves is unlimited. And, the likelihood of the current existence of my self (and your self) – given the scientific model (and OOFLam) -- is 7 billion divided by infinity.
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Old 9th October 2016, 07:01 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- Consciousness came from my brain. My consciousness naturally came with, or produced, a particular self -- ME. If we were able to reproduce my brain, consciousness would again come with it, but this consciousness would not be ME. This would be a brand new self. We would not get the same self via the same chemistry.
Well sorta, but ok.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- The point is that there is ‘something’ here that never existed before -- in any form whatsoever. In that sense, it came from nowhere.
No, wrong, false. I cannot see why you are making that jump. It comes as a process from the brain.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
And, there was no limited pool of potential selves from which this self came.
There is no such thing as potential selves. What the hell are you talking about?

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
And, if there is no limited pool of potential selves, the number of potential selves is unlimited.
Again, what the hell is a potential self? You act like it is a concrete thing that exists. You're begging the question that their are souls out there existing, just waiting to be actualized into a brain. Which is hogwash.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
And, the likelihood of the current existence of my self (and your self) – given the scientific model (and OOFLam) -- is 7 billion divided by infinity.
Full circle fringe reset depending on flawed and false premises.
And even if you had a point, which you do not, what the hell does one life vs reincarnation have to do with your particular emerging conciousness being potentially unique.

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Old 9th October 2016, 07:20 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Consciousness came from my brain. My consciousness naturally came with, or produced, a particular self -- ME.

There is no "self" in the sense if a separate entity. The feeling of "self" is just part of consciousness.

Quote:
If we were able to reproduce my brain, consciousness would again come with it, but this consciousness would not be ME. This would be a brand new self. We would not get the same self via the same chemistry.

Because a copy of something is not the original, and if you have two things there are two of them, even if they are identical.

Quote:
- The point is that there is ‘something’ here that never existed before -- in any form whatsoever. In that sense, it came from nowhere.

It is a process going on in your brain, not an entity that can "come from somewhere".

Quote:
And, there was no limited pool of potential selves from which this self came. And, if there is no limited pool of potential selves, the number of potential selves is unlimited. And, the likelihood of the current existence of my self (and your self) – given the scientific model (and OOFLam) -- is 7 billion divided by infinity.

There is no pool of potential selves, limited or not limited. Consciousness is just something your brain does. There is no question of there being a multiplicity of "selves" competing for the privilege of occupying your brain. Once your brain exists the likelihood that it will produce your consciousness is one.

As The Sparrow said, this is just another full-blown reset. The flaws in your argument have been repeatedly pointed out to you, and you just restate it as if nothing had happened. This is not a method that is going to result in Effective DebateTM.
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Old 9th October 2016, 07:33 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- Consciousness came from my brain. My consciousness naturally came with, or produced, a particular self -- ME. If we were able to reproduce my brain, consciousness would again come with it, but this consciousness would not be ME. This would be a brand new self. We would not get the same self via the same chemistry.

If we were to reproduce your brain, when you woke up from the procedure, would you KNOW you are You, or simply the Copy of You?
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Old 9th October 2016, 07:41 AM   #351
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Would the new Jabba be able to actually argue his point?
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Old 9th October 2016, 08:09 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Would the new Jabba be able to actually argue his point?
Which would be the new one?
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Old 9th October 2016, 08:25 AM   #353
sackett
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Jabba, you forgot to say "anyway." And people are starting to swear at you. On the sabbath!

Surely you see the connection. Now cover your ears with your hands and cry Anyway! Anyway! Anyway! until everything's all right again.
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Old 9th October 2016, 08:52 AM   #354
JayUtah
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Consciousness came from my brain. My consciousness naturally came with, or produced, a particular self -- ME.
No, that's not the scientific hypothesis. In the scientific hypothesis your sense of self is the same thing as your consciousness. If you want to argue that the scientific hypothesis includes or should include a separate concept of "self" then you'll have to show scientific evidence for that distinction.

Quote:
If we were able to reproduce my brain, consciousness would again come with it, but this consciousness would not be ME. This would be a brand new self. We would not get the same self via the same chemistry.
That is exactly the opposite of the scientific hypothesis. Do not just make up crap and call it H. If your purpose is to falsify H you have to falsify the real H, not just crap you invent.

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The point is that there is ‘something’ here that never existed before -- in any form whatsoever.
Nonsense. Emergent properties are properties. It's meaningless to talk about the supposed existence of a property separately from the entity of which it is a property. To say it came from nothing is like saying there's no such thing as white until I make a snowball. You're still stuck in the rut of thinking properties are things.

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And, there was no limited pool of potential selves from which this self came.
That concept is wholly inapplicable to the scientific hypothesis. Properties do not come from a "pool".

Quote:
And, if there is no limited pool of potential selves, the number of potential selves is unlimited.
NO

Just, no. You are doing your best to cobble up some rationale for dividing by infinity, but not because the rationale bears any sort of relationship to reality or to principles of mathematics.

First, you are applying quantitative reasoning to things you assume are discrete and are countable. That assumption does not apply here. We're talking about properties, not objects. You simply refuse to listen to anyone who tries to instruct you.

Second, none of this has a single whit to do with science. If you are going to falsify the scientific hypothesis H by asserting that it has practically zero chance of producing people with a sense of self, you can't just make up whatever you want and call it H. H actually has to derive from scientific principles.

BLATANT STRAW MAN

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And, the likelihood of the current existence of my self (and your self) – given the scientific model (and OOFLam) -- is 7 billion divided by infinity.
No, you're just pulling stuff out of your kiester and calling it the scientific hypothesis. Why don't you listen to the people who actually subscribe to the scientific hypothesis and falsify that instead of your rambling pseudo-philosophical nonsense?
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Old 9th October 2016, 08:55 AM   #355
JayUtah
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Allow dividing or multiplying by infinity, and we can prove that 1=2.
But it's a red herring anyway. The properties of infinity don't bear on the problem because Jabba's torturous route to get to infinity is just his typical deceptive word play. His argument is akin to, "Snow wasn't white until it fell, therefore there is infinity white, therefore any snowball is too improbable to exist according to science."
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Old 9th October 2016, 08:57 AM   #356
godless dave
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- Consciousness came from my brain.
And so did your self.

If we reproduced your brain we wouldn't get the same consciousness, we would get one exactly like it.

It still seems like you're trying to get us to concede that souls exist so you can then try to prove souls are immortal.

We don't believe souls exist.
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Old 9th October 2016, 11:27 AM   #357
Jabba
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- Consciousness came from my brain. My consciousness naturally came with, or produced, a particular self -- ME. If we were able to reproduce my brain, consciousness would again come with it, but this consciousness would not be ME. This would be a brand new self. We would not get the same self via the same chemistry.
- The point is that there is ‘something’ here that never existed before -- in any form whatsoever. In that sense, it came from nowhere. And, there was no limited pool of potential selves from which this self came. And, if there is no limited pool of potential selves, the number of potential selves is unlimited. And, the likelihood of the current existence of my self (and your self) – given the scientific model (and OOFLam) -- is 7 billion divided by infinity.
Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
And so did your self.
If we reproduced your brain we wouldn't get the same consciousness, we would get one exactly like it.

It still seems like you're trying to get us to concede that souls exist so you can then try to prove souls are immortal.
We don't believe souls exist.
Dave,
- I basically agree with your part that I hilited. Scientifically speaking, we cannot reproduce the particular self. IOW, there are no potential selves in the sense that specific chemistry would produce the same self each time.
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Old 9th October 2016, 11:29 AM   #358
JoeBentley
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Jabba seriously stop telling people you agree with them and then making the exact opposite point they are making.
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Old 9th October 2016, 11:48 AM   #359
godless dave
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- I basically agree with your part that I hilited. Scientifically speaking, we cannot reproduce the particular self. IOW, there are no potential selves in the sense that specific chemistry would produce the same self each time.
Specific chemistry wouldn't produce the same brain each time either. Because a copy is not the original, even if it's identical to the original.
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Old 9th October 2016, 11:52 AM   #360
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Jabba, what do the words "same" and "identical" mean to you?
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