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Tags donald trump , internet incidents , Trump controversies , US-Russia relations , vladimir putin

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Old 10th January 2017, 05:45 PM   #601
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What part do you claim is treason?
His surrogates working with russia.
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Old 10th January 2017, 05:46 PM   #602
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
His surrogates working with russia.
Giving Russia the dumb Dems passwords?
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Old 10th January 2017, 05:47 PM   #603
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What part do you claim is treason?
Cohen and Manafort aiding in and knowingly working to benefit from Russian espionage, passing information back and forth. This included direct meetings and discussions with Kermlin 'representatives and associated operators/hackers'. (If those papers are correct.)
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Old 10th January 2017, 05:49 PM   #604
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
His surrogates working with russia.
Please elaborate.
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Old 10th January 2017, 05:51 PM   #605
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Please elaborate.
The allegation is that Trump's team was in on the hacking to the extent that they were taking part in planning, follow, and even paying the actual hackers.
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Old 10th January 2017, 05:52 PM   #606
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Cohen and Manafort aiding in and knowingly working to benefit from Russian espionage, passing information back and forth. This included direct meetings and discussions with Kermlin 'representatives and associated operators/hackers'. (If those papers are correct.)
Okay. So not treason because not our enemy. But ignoring that for now.

What part of that is not actually allowed and why?
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Old 10th January 2017, 05:55 PM   #607
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Okay. So not treason because not our enemy. But ignoring that for now.

What part of that is not actually allowed and why?
The 'paying people to commit crimes' is, in and of itself, a crime. Not reporting such is also, if I remember correctly, a crime.
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Old 10th January 2017, 05:56 PM   #608
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
The 'paying people to commit crimes' is, in and of itself, a crime. Not reporting such is also, if I remember correctly, a crime.
But just a crime....Not treason?
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Old 10th January 2017, 05:57 PM   #609
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
ETA: It's almost too perfectly lurid. He allegedly hired prostitutes for a “golden shower” party on Ritz Moscow bed where Obama/Michelle slept. I wouldn't put it past him but he's a well known germophobe.

ETA2: "Trumped-up trickle down" is now a much better line than when it was used in the debates.
Yes, probably too good to be true. However, urine is sterile.
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Old 10th January 2017, 05:59 PM   #610
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
But just a crime....Not treason?
No, I'm thinking it's treason. I'm trying to look up the definition of 'enemy' as it pertains to 18 U.S. Code § 2381.


EDIT: Ah, right. 'Enemy' means 'country at war with'. Russia doesn't currently qualify.
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Last edited by tyr_13; 10th January 2017 at 06:02 PM.
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Old 10th January 2017, 06:02 PM   #611
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
No, I'm thinking it's treason. I'm trying to look up the definition of 'enemy' as it pertains to 18 U.S. Code § 2381.
Let's establish the upper and lower bounds. What country would definitely be treason and which ones would just be illegal?
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Old 10th January 2017, 06:02 PM   #612
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The document only says a 'golden showers' (urination) show was performed, it doesn't say he personally got peed on.

Let's not get distracted by the details like junior high kids, please?
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Old 10th January 2017, 06:05 PM   #613
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
The document only says a 'golden showers' (urination) show was performed, it doesn't say he personally got peed on.

Let's not get distracted by the details like junior high kids, please?
Right now, all we have to go on are the details in the papers themselves as far as believably of them.

It's not a lot to go on, and while it's not going to be enough to conclude 'these are real', it might make us lean that way, and could be debunked making us reject them as true unless further information is provided.

Not like we can do much else on them.

EDIT: Besides working on the image data itself, which isn't providing me with much yet.

EDIT2: Well, besides the words under the paper are in fact the next page photographed, so doesn't look like more information will be gotten there. Working on seeing if I can extract EXIF data and if the redacted parts will be readable from when they were the underpage.

EDIT3: Nope, physical redaction.
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Last edited by tyr_13; 10th January 2017 at 06:09 PM.
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Old 10th January 2017, 06:11 PM   #614
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Well, the news moves fast.

Buzzfeed has published the 35 pages in question:

https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...legations.html
As I understand it, anyone can post documents on documentcloud. Is this true? I'm skeptical; there is just too much certainty in them. Admittedly I've never actually read real intelligence documents, but I would expect that they would contain qualifiers and indications of the known credibility of the sources of various claims.
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Old 10th January 2017, 06:12 PM   #615
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Let's not forget what Russia has said about this publically.

Quote:
The Russian government was in touch with members of President-elect Donald Trump's campaign staff during the U.S. election campaign, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov told the Interfax news agency on Thursday.

"There were contacts," Interfax cited Ryabkov as saying. He did not give details.

When asked whether these contacts would now intensify after Trump's election victory, Ryabkov said: "These working moments and follow-up on this or that matter will depend on the situation and the questions which face us. But we will of course continue this work after the elections."
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Old 10th January 2017, 06:19 PM   #616
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
As I understand it, anyone can post documents on documentcloud. Is this true? I'm skeptical; there is just too much certainty in them. Admittedly I've never actually read real intelligence documents, but I would expect that they would contain qualifiers and indications of the known credibility of the sources of various claims.
These are purportedly documents created by a former MI6 agent who was hired to dig up dirt on Trump by various other candidates during the course of the campaign season.

Again 'unnamed' intelligence officials claim these sources were identified and considered reliable and they now have independent corroborations (if I understand CNN's claims correctly).

So Harry Reid's letter blasting Comey alludes to damning evidence prompting some outlets to investigate what he was hinting at. Mother Jones finds out about the MI6 agent's reports. Now summaries of those reports are appearing in classified briefings, which may indicate they have been vetted and considered authentic enough to include in official briefs.
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Old 10th January 2017, 06:21 PM   #617
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Oh I see, you thought they were in contact about the hacking. Did it ever occur to your critical mind they may have been discussing future relations between our two countries?
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Old 10th January 2017, 06:23 PM   #618
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He seems pissed.
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Old 10th January 2017, 06:30 PM   #619
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Say, what was in the content of the Republican and Trump campaign emails, that didn't get released?
Not to mention the tax returns.
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Old 10th January 2017, 06:32 PM   #620
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
I see what you did there...
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Old 10th January 2017, 06:51 PM   #621
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I'm trying to piece together the events. This is what I have so far.

These documents were put together by a former MI6 guy that now does opposition research. He did it since some point since 2015. I am guessing that these actually represent all the evidence he compiled?

Everyone and their mother had these...News...Campaigns...FBI...Etc.

Recently, the FBI verified the ex agent's credibility. Not that he is right, but that he is not a crackpot.

Media had these docs, and locked down enough that these are the documents by the non crackpot (but the docs themselves could be crackpot).

I think the starting question is what is normal for opposition research? Does this exceed the bounds, or did some memo back in 2000 allege Gore liked cuckolding and coordinated with Bulgarian agents?
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Old 10th January 2017, 06:55 PM   #622
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[click on image for source]

PS: The Ferrari is AWESOME!!!



Seriously, people.
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Old 10th January 2017, 07:00 PM   #623
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm trying to piece together the events. This is what I have so far.

These documents were put together by a former MI6 guy that now does opposition research. He did it since some point since 2015. I am guessing that these actually represent all the evidence he compiled?

Everyone and their mother had these...News...Campaigns...FBI...Etc.

Recently, the FBI verified the ex agent's credibility. Not that he is right, but that he is not a crackpot.

Media had these docs, and locked down enough that these are the documents by the non crackpot (but the docs themselves could be crackpot).

I think the starting question is what is normal for opposition research? Does this exceed the bounds, or did some memo back in 2000 allege Gore liked cuckolding and coordinated with Bulgarian agents?
Well, no, not everyone had them. The FBI got them because the 'former' MI6 agent gave them to an FBI asset friend in Rome. Then a British intelligence official independently gave the same information to McCain, who also took it to US intelligence.

US Intelligence has not released anything that we know of confirming the details of the allegations.

However, they have (reportedly) verified not only the former MI6 guy and his credibility, but also that of his sources. This was with independent confirmation. So the sources are people who exist and did provide information, but the accuracy of the information isn't completely confirmed. Of course that is how most intelligence works, and you have to cross reference to see what is most likely true because several independent sources of information agree.

And no, the copies are not supposed to be all the information, but just summaries.
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Old 10th January 2017, 07:08 PM   #624
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A stream of comments flowing on twitter.
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Old 10th January 2017, 07:09 PM   #625
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Cohen insists he has never been to Prague, including the cover of his passport on a Twitter post.

His being in Prague was allegedly in August, referenced as aftermath to the Manafort resignation, so that would be late August.

Well, that should be fairly easy to work considering the high profile he carries.

Anyone with more familiarity on EU travel than me, he could enter any Schengen-area port on a Visa and get to Prague and back on a round trip ticket with no issue, right?
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Old 10th January 2017, 07:10 PM   #626
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Is this what they mean by trickle down?
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Old 10th January 2017, 07:13 PM   #627
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I wonder who leaked?
Do you think the allegations hold water? or is it just yellow journalism?
Anyway, we know where he gets his colour from.
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Old 10th January 2017, 07:14 PM   #628
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Well makes sense now why Trump said it was disgusting when Hillary had to use the restroom. He was disgusted he couldn't watch!
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Old 10th January 2017, 07:15 PM   #629
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Anybody stomached to watch that c-span recording of the sic hearing (I didn't)? This looks like fog to cover something up.
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Old 10th January 2017, 07:16 PM   #630
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Captain Swoop, you're killing me!
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Old 10th January 2017, 07:17 PM   #631
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Old 10th January 2017, 07:18 PM   #632
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I wonder who leaked?

Apparently it went from Ken Bensinger to Ben Smith to be published by BuzzFeed, whoever these people are.
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Old 10th January 2017, 07:26 PM   #633
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Anybody stomached to watch that c-span recording of the sic hearing (I didn't)? This looks like fog to cover something up.
I don't have the patience for committees and hearings and Blunt's face makes my blood boil. That a committee is convened for a certain purpose out of the ordinary schedule is often the most noteworthy thing about it. I usually rely on a wide array of viewpoints to pick out the moments or quotes that might be 'telling', assuming any exist at all.

As I said earlier, most of them are just a chance for the elected officials to be seen on camera fighting for Americans against the appointed officials across from them.
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Old 10th January 2017, 07:27 PM   #634
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Another reason that Trump is so hilariously unprepared for this job. The major implication here (besides the Russia thing itself) is that the intel chiefs and some powerful members of Congress now have this info, as well.

So what do you say, Mr. Trump? Would you like to play ball with us or would you like us to have some very public hearings about all of this so that Americans can watch us go through all of the opposition research with painstaking detail? Live. On C-Span. For the next 3 months.
Interesting.
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Old 10th January 2017, 07:32 PM   #635
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post

And no, the copies are not supposed to be all the information, but just summaries.
John podesta and Jeb Bush would have the details, right? If they paid this guy to conduct opposition research, he would have turned it over?

Earlier I asked what we actually know about opposition research. Is it normally this fancy?
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Old 10th January 2017, 07:33 PM   #636
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I don't have the patience for committees and hearings and Blunt's face makes my blood boil. That a committee is convened for a certain purpose out of the ordinary schedule is often the most noteworthy thing about it. I usually rely on a wide array of viewpoints to pick out the moments or quotes that might be 'telling', assuming any exist at all.

As I said earlier, most of them are just a chance for the elected officials to be seen on camera fighting for Americans against the appointed officials across from them.

In these times one should always go as close to the source as possible, given that most filters aren't trustworthy, and given that we are able to get closer to the sources than ever before.

That said, we could have a royal LOL in the making, bigger than expected, with this nonsense report.
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Old 10th January 2017, 07:34 PM   #637
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I wonder who leaked?
Do you think the allegations hold water? or is it just yellow journalism?
Anyway, we know where he gets his colour from.
Well, oppo research potentially seen by primary candidates and senior campaign staffs, the intelligence community, probably into the hands of several media organizations during the campaign(s), widely available in the media sphere for weeks, now.

So it's probably several leaks leading to even more leaks. This is an example of the very phenomenon that conspiracy theories never seem to take into account, there's always leaks. This is why opposition research has a 'shelf life', from the moment you uncover something there's a clock running on how long until someone expands the circle of the informed.

As to credibility/veracity. Who knows. We still have the problem of anonymous experts of other (still unknown) claims. We only know they consider sources to be credible and that some independent corroborations exist. I haven't seen the same kind of 'high degree of confidence' claims, but on the other hand, they are apparently including 2-page summaries of this information in classified briefings, so...?

What we do have is details of rough dates and times that activities occurred or persons were purported to be in certain places. That can be combed through for hints at whether the claims have even basic facts right, if not their explanations/interpretations.

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Old 10th January 2017, 07:36 PM   #638
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I'm seeing on Twitter Republicans still have no idea what fake news is. These documents are being passed around d government right now. These are the documents in question. That is real news.
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Old 10th January 2017, 07:45 PM   #639
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
That said, we could have a royal LOL in the making, bigger than expected, with this nonsense report.

4Chan Claims To Have Fabricated Anti-Trump Report As A Hoax

Originally Posted by zerohedge
In a story that is getting more surreal by the minute, a post on 4Chan now claims that the infamous "golden showers" scene in the unverified 35-page dossier, allegedly compiled by a British intelligence officer, was a hoax and fabricated by a member of the chatboard as "fanfiction", then sent to Rick Wilson, who proceeded to send it to the CIA, which then put it in their official classified intelligence report on the election.

Here is 4Chan's explanation of how the story came to light: [...]
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Old 10th January 2017, 07:46 PM   #640
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Has the actual document been posted yet? Courtesy of Buzzfeed.

Dang, I wonder what Trump said in the briefing when he was told the Russians had video of Trump watching whores peeing on each other?

The claim Trump had moles inside the DNC and shared that info with Russia is rather startling.
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