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Tags donald trump , internet incidents , Trump controversies , US-Russia relations , vladimir putin

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Old 10th January 2017, 07:46 PM   #641
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The detestable Jonah Goldberg cautioned for a wait-and-see approach on National Review's blog before concluding: "Even if this whole thing is a complete fabrication, there’s still the vexing question: Why is admiration for Putin and his government the only issue Trump has never wavered, equivocated, or flip-flopped on? If these allegations are false, that question still remains."

Because Putin's a boss. And besides, Trump's not an idea guy; he couldn't give a **** about ideas. He's interested in people -- mostly what they're thinking or saying about Donald Trump.
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Old 10th January 2017, 07:52 PM   #642
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Problem: the documents in question are not an 'official classified intelligence report', they come from outside the chain-of-custody described in the portion you quoted. These are purportedly the original (or copies of the original to be precise) reports sent to clients who paid him for his research.

There's a lot of layers to peel on this onion. Even if the allegations themselves are not true, if there are intelligence operatives all over Europe passing such information around, what does that say in and of itself, etc.
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Old 10th January 2017, 07:57 PM   #643
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post

There's a lot of layers to peel on this onion. Even if the allegations themselves are not true, if there are intelligence operatives all over Europe passing such information around, what does that say in and of itself, etc.
Lots of agents send a lot of junk around to justify their pay?
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Old 10th January 2017, 08:00 PM   #644
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I'm dying here!
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Old 10th January 2017, 08:10 PM   #645
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Problem: the documents in question are not an 'official classified intelligence report', they come from outside the chain-of-custody described in the portion you quoted. These are purportedly the original (or copies of the original to be precise) reports sent to clients who paid him for his research.

There's a lot of layers to peel on this onion. Even if the allegations themselves are not true, if there are intelligence operatives all over Europe passing such information around, what does that say in and of itself, etc.

As it looks now there are "intelligence operatives" all over 4chan. I would post an image of an anime frog but apparently he has developed into a Nazi.

This is so funny.
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Old 10th January 2017, 08:19 PM   #646
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
I'm dying here!

Russian psychologists have deep research into Anglo fascination with excrements, and help available. Ask John McCain for the number of Peet Poomagniskoff.
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Old 10th January 2017, 08:30 PM   #647
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Wait a minute here. CNN says Trump himself was briefed on this matter. Is Trump denying that he was briefed?
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Old 10th January 2017, 08:41 PM   #648
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Michael Cohen stated he has never been to Prague. If that is proven untrue, I will gladly consider there veracity of these. Until then I'm going to operate assuming they are false.
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Old 10th January 2017, 10:30 PM   #649
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Kellyanne is going with the "never heard of it" defense.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefi...-against-trump
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Old 10th January 2017, 10:44 PM   #650
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More from the document:

Wikileaks disclosures are only the tip of the iceberg.

Trump team happy to have Russia be the boogyman because Trump stuff with China (bribes and kickbacks) is worse.

Manafort payment was a kickback. When it was discovered, Manafort had to go, too much liability exposing Russian involvement.

Carter Page, oil industry guy is Trumps' man in Moscow.

Trump has been giving Putin (through channels) info on the Russian oligarchs Putin has issues with.

Kremlin has been in contact with Flynn.

Jill Stein was a player?

Trump's lawyer met with Kremlin players in Prague in August.

Russia has an interest in changing or eliminating the TPP

Veterans' pension ruse used to launder payments to Russian operatives.

Putin worried a liberal US government would care more about Ukraine. Sanctions another issue.

Trump/Page have been offered a 19% share of Rosnet if sanctions lifted.

Cohen, Trump's lawyer, is deeply involved. So was Manafort. Does anyone doubt Tillerson's involvement?

Anti-Clinton hackers paid by both Trump team and the Kremlin.

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Old 10th January 2017, 10:45 PM   #651
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Kellyanne is going with the "never heard of it" defense.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefi...-against-trump
Seth Meyers calls her on her BS. Saw a preview, you can watch it tonight about 12:30.
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Old 10th January 2017, 10:58 PM   #652
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Michael Cohen stated he has never been to Prague. If that is proven untrue, I will gladly consider there veracity of these. Until then I'm going to operate assuming they are false.
I'd assume they're all false, too, but they seem to be quite a collection of stuff from all over, and remember what they used to say about Bill Clinton: If only 10% of this stuff is true...

But it would be karma if a pack of lies destroyed Donald Trump's political career.
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Old 10th January 2017, 11:13 PM   #653
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What a hypocrite Comey is.

FBI chief given dossier by John McCain alleging secret Trump-Russia contacts
Quote:
Some of the reports – which are dated from 20 June to 20 October last year – also proved to be prescient, predicting events that happened after they were sent.

One report, dated June 2016, claims that the Kremlin has been cultivating, supporting and assisting Trump for at least five years, with the aim of encouraging “splits and divisions in western alliance”....

The former Democratic Senate leader, Harry Reid, has lambasted Comey for publicising investigations into Hillary Clinton’s private server, while allegedly sitting on “explosive” material on Trump’s ties to Russia.

Another Democratic senator, Ron Wyden, questioned Comey insistently at a Senate intelligence committee hearing on Tuesday on whether the FBI was pursuing leads on Trump campaign contacts with Russia.

“Has the FBI investigated these reported relationships?” Wyden asked.

Comey replied: “I would never comment on investigations … in a public forum....
Riiight, unless it's to diss Clinton.

This answers a question I asked earlier, when did Comey know:
Quote:
The Guardian can confirm that the documents reached the top of the FBI by December. The Guardian can confirm that the documents reached the top of the FBI by December. Senator John McCain, who was informed about the existence of the documents separately by an intermediary from a western allied state, dispatched an emissary overseas to meet the source and then decided to present the material to Comey in a one-on-one meeting on 9 December, according to a source aware of the meeting. The documents, which were first reported on last year by Mother Jones, are also in the hands of officials in the White House.
And here's another bombshell:
Quote:
The Guardian has learned that the FBI applied for a warrant from the foreign intelligence surveillance (Fisa) court over the summer in order to monitor four members of the Trump team suspected of irregular contacts with Russian officials. The Fisa court turned down the application asking FBI counter-intelligence investigators to narrow its focus. According to one report, the FBI was finally granted a warrant in October, but that has not been confirmed, and it is not clear whether any warrant led to a full investigation.
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Old 10th January 2017, 11:18 PM   #654
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
...
But it would be karma if a pack of lies destroyed Donald Trump's political career.
Looks like his Hubris is about to get Trump. Thinks he's too smart to get caught, all he needs to do is keep denying it. But if you read the 35 page (minus 14 redacted pages) intelligence report, it's clear this is not a speculative document. And it's clear there are multiple ties directly to the Trump camp.

Part of me wonders if this wasn't Paul Ryan's plan all along, get Trump elected and you impeach him and get Pence, someone who would not have won against Clinton.

Just watch, you'll start to see evidence (faux or not) that Pence knew nothing about all these goings on.

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Old 11th January 2017, 12:20 AM   #655
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As damning as some of the allegations are, let's remember that only 2 pages worth end up as part of a classified brief that claim to be from good sources and possibly independently corroborated.

This blade cuts both ways since it means some of it may be inaccurate, but also any inaccuracies identified don't necessarily condemn the whole bundle.
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Old 11th January 2017, 12:39 AM   #656
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Anyone with more familiarity on EU travel than me, he could enter any Schengen-area port on a Visa and get to Prague and back on a round trip ticket with no issue, right?
Yes, no internal border checks.

Another reason for skepticism is that the document seems to be written by someone with affiliation with Clinton-style political rhetoric. Such as juxtaposing Putin's purported "19th century Great Power" politics with "liberal" and "ideals-based" international politics (yeah right, liberal and ideals-based...).
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Old 11th January 2017, 12:48 AM   #657
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
As damning as some of the allegations are, let's remember that only 2 pages worth end up as part of a classified brief that claim to be from good sources and possibly independently corroborated.

This blade cuts both ways since it means some of it may be inaccurate, but also any inaccuracies identified don't necessarily condemn the whole bundle.
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Yes, no internal border checks.

Another reason for skepticism is that the document seems to be written by someone with affiliation with Clinton-style political rhetoric. Such as juxtaposing Putin's purported "19th century Great Power" politics with "liberal" and "ideals-based" international politics (yeah right, liberal and ideals-based...).
What a bunch of denial malarky. Did you even read the actual intelligence report?
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Old 11th January 2017, 12:56 AM   #658
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
What a bunch of denial malarky. Did you even read the actual intelligence report?
Delphic Oracle is the one who posted the report here, so yes, I'm pretty sure they read it. As have I, as you can tell by me arguing several statements in it which betray political affiliation with Clinton-style rhetoric.
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Old 11th January 2017, 01:03 AM   #659
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Well, to be very nit-picky I have not read the intelligence report. I have read some opposition research documents that a 2-page addendum to an intelligence report references some parts of.
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Old 11th January 2017, 01:04 AM   #660
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Delphic Oracle is the one who posted the report here, so yes, I'm pretty sure they read it. As have I, as you can tell by me arguing several statements in it which betray political affiliation with Clinton-style rhetoric.
Now you think you can read clues from Clinton in the report?

I repeat, what a bunch of denial malarky.
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Old 11th January 2017, 01:17 AM   #661
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The author is a former MI6 agent whose services were retained by Republican primary opponents as well as Clinton, so skepticism along the lines of these documents being fabricated by Clinton supporters doesn't carry much water. McCain was an intermediary in passing some of them along to the FBI, so again a partisan disinformation plot doesn't quite fit.

I would say the language is probably more accurately read in terms of European political discourse than American left-right discourse since they are written by a former British intelligence agent interacting with other spooks in Europe and Russia.
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Old 11th January 2017, 01:28 AM   #662
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Now you think you can read clues from Clinton in the report?
What that language shows is that it may have problems with a "tell them what they want to hear" aspect to it.

Quote:
I repeat, what a bunch of denial malarky.
Repeat all you want, doesn't make it any more true. I get it, you "want to believe", and you are free to do so but can't expect anyone else to just follow you with it.
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Old 11th January 2017, 01:30 AM   #663
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
The author is a former MI6 agent whose services were retained by Republican primary opponents as well as Clinton, so skepticism along the lines of these documents being fabricated by Clinton supporters doesn't carry much water.
I didn't say it was "fabricated by Clinton supporters".
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Old 11th January 2017, 01:41 AM   #664
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
McCain was an intermediary in passing some of them along to the FBI, so again a partisan disinformation plot doesn't quite fit.
This faux "partisan" distinction is clouding your[*] thinking. McCain and plenty of other Republicans would be equally, if not more, amenable to such language. When language seems designed to resonate with the recipients' prior world-view there's grounds for skepticism that the people who use the language are just telling the recipients what they want to hear. The distinction isn't along "partisan" lines but along lines of people holding such world-view and people who don't.

* not just you personally but plenty of people here
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Old 11th January 2017, 01:51 AM   #665
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Whatever, you have fun with your 'Clinton-style political rhetoric' theory.

Opposition research that turns out to be bunk is worth nothing, maybe even less than nothing since it would backfire on anyone trying to use it. Operatives who generate opposition research that turns out to be bunk tend to end up with no clients after a while.

What, other than the terms "liberal" and "ideals-based" supposedly being sekrit Clintonian ciphers are you basing this on?

ETA: I also again remind you that Clinton was not the agent's only client, many Republicans purchased access to these reports. So was the agent telling Republican primary candidates what they wanted to hear by invoking a "liberal" and "ideals-based" Clinton-style worldview?

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Old 11th January 2017, 02:03 AM   #666
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Whatever, you have fun with your 'Clinton-style political rhetoric' theory.

Opposition research that turns out to be bunk is worth nothing, maybe even less than nothing since it would backfire on anyone trying to use it. Operatives who generate opposition research that turns out to be bunk tend to end up with no clients after a while.

What, other than the terms "liberal" and "ideals-based" supposedly being sekrit Clintonian ciphers are you basing this on?

ETA: I also again remind you that Clinton was not the agent's only client, many Republicans purchased access to these reports. So was the agent telling Republican primary candidates what they wanted to hear by invoking a "liberal" and "ideals-based" Clinton-style worldview?
I'm not going to dignify this with a response other than to tell you to have fun with your "partisan" theory.
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Old 11th January 2017, 02:28 AM   #667
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post



Why?
Because the figures promoting this jolly conspiracy theory are on-the-record, self-confessed liars, e.g. James Clapper
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Old 11th January 2017, 02:34 AM   #668
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Some of the allegations are vague, others quite specific. If they were just confabulations, by now at least some would have been debunked by either intelligence services or the media.
Since they are not, this pile of manure definitely has the power to stick to Trump for the next few years.
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Old 11th January 2017, 02:38 AM   #669
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Some of the allegations are vague, others quite specific. If they were just confabulations, by now at least some would have been debunked by either intelligence services or the media.
Since they are not, this pile of manure definitely has the power to stick to Trump for the next few years.
If the allegations are true, chances are that there won't be any "next few years" for Trump in any official position.
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Old 11th January 2017, 02:42 AM   #670
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Some of the allegations are vague, others quite specific. If they were just confabulations, by now at least some would have been debunked by either intelligence services or the media.
Since they are not, this pile of manure definitely has the power to stick to Trump for the next few years.
Former CIA and NSA Officials Just Joined Forces & Debunked the Russian “Hack” Conspiracy Theory
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Old 11th January 2017, 02:50 AM   #671
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It does make me cross when America and their CIA so-called political intelligence officers have been interfering in elections and overthrowing governments all over the world, including Nicaragua and Guatemala and Ukraine and Peru and Syria and Iraq, and possibly Brazil, and yet as soon as some other people start meddling in toppling the American government they threaten violence and sanctions to interfere in international trade. I don't want to march on Moscow, or attack Iran or China. The Japanese have been described as ghastly people in the past. I don't like mad mullahs, but I don't want nuclear war over the matter.
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Old 11th January 2017, 02:57 AM   #672
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
"Two bitter has-been Trumptards assert a bunch of **** with no evidence" is a better headline for that crap.
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Old 11th January 2017, 03:27 AM   #673
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
None of this has anything to do with burden of proof. If I assert that there are no swans, then it is up to me to give evidence. If you assert that there are, then you must give evidence.

There is absolutely no reasonable rule that, if your claim is hard or impossible to prove, then you don't have to.
You don't think that having an impossible burden of proof is unreasonable?
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Old 11th January 2017, 03:29 AM   #674
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
There is an obvious perception they're corrupt.

You don't sense that people have a mistrust about them?
You're not answering my question: what does the CIA have to do with Hillary not getting charged by the DOJ?

When you're done answering that, you can tell me what the perception of other people have to do with you knowing that they're corrupt.
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Old 11th January 2017, 03:46 AM   #675
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Some of the allegations are vague, others quite specific. If they were just confabulations, by now at least some would have been debunked by either intelligence services or the media.
Since they are not, this pile of manure definitely has the power to stick to Trump for the next few years.
The easiest one, the trip to Prague, took about 8 hours for people to reach out to the baseball team and confirm Cohen at the school with his son August 29th. That is a pretty good start.

ETA: and before people start saying,"but he was in Italy in July, he could have..." That is how psychic cold reads get their power. Someone makes a prediction up and you give it credibility by mentally giving it a pass on some of the details.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 11th January 2017 at 03:52 AM.
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Old 11th January 2017, 05:26 AM   #676
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The easiest one, the trip to Prague, took about 8 hours for people to reach out to the baseball team and confirm Cohen at the school with his son August 29th. That is a pretty good start.

ETA: and before people start saying,"but he was in Italy in July, he could have..." That is how psychic cold reads get their power. Someone makes a prediction up and you give it credibility by mentally giving it a pass on some of the details.
A big-shot dad spending time with his son?
I find that deeply suspicious ...

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Old 11th January 2017, 05:53 AM   #677
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You're not answering my question: what does the CIA have to do with Hillary not getting charged by the DOJ?

When you're done answering that, you can tell me what the perception of other people have to do with you knowing that they're corrupt.
I'm not answering yours until you answer mine.
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Old 11th January 2017, 05:55 AM   #678
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You're not answering my question: what does the CIA have to do with Hillary not getting charged by the DOJ?

When you're done answering that, you can tell me what the perception of other people have to do with you knowing that they're corrupt.
Did I use the word knowing? Do you see how you changed my word perception into knowing? This is why you get so confused.

Last edited by logger; 11th January 2017 at 05:58 AM.
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Old 11th January 2017, 05:57 AM   #679
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
It's unverified information sourced to anonymous figures whose existence has not been proven. I'm skeptical as this seems almost too perfect. There needs to be an independent probe into these long standing allegations but the Satanic Cheeto will never allow it.

ETA: It's almost too perfectly lurid. He allegedly hired prostitutes for a “golden shower” party on Ritz Moscow bed where Obama/Michelle slept. I wouldn't put it past him but he's a well known germophobe.

ETA2: "Trumped-up trickle down" is now a much better line than when it was used in the debates.
Fake news?
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-0...mp-report-hoax
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Old 11th January 2017, 05:58 AM   #680
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I get the feeling Trump is setting the left up again, this is going to be epic!
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