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Tags donald trump , internet incidents , Trump controversies , US-Russia relations , vladimir putin

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Old 1st November 2016, 07:19 AM   #81
uke2se
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
http://secondnexus.com/politics-and-...3ee3ca348530db


I'll just leave that there.

A server that communicates directly from Trump Tower to banks in Russia?

Nah, still. Nothing to see here!
About time someone takes a leaf from the alt-right playbook and starts a meme with Trump as the Manchurian Candidate.
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Old 1st November 2016, 07:30 AM   #82
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Quote:
A VETERAN SPY REPORTS HE PROVIDED THE FBI WITH EVIDENCE TRUMP WAS COMPROMISED AND HAS BEEN WORKING FOR RUSSIA FOR FIVE YEARS

Mother Jones was the next news organization out with its own equally disturbing late October surprise on Monday. It reported that, earlier this summer, an experienced Western Intelligence officer had reported to the FBI that he had found evidence of “an established exchange of information” between the Kremlin and Trump going back no less than five years.
LOL
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Old 13th December 2016, 09:27 AM   #83
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While the specifics may have been off, are we still willing to dismiss Russia / Trump ties? And that those ties deal with money?
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Old 14th December 2016, 05:19 PM   #84
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NBC Reporting that Putin (A former KGB chief) was directly involved.
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Old 14th December 2016, 11:21 PM   #85
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Since Bob would apparently prefer not fouling up his thread with discussion of the validity of the claim itself:

https://theintercept.com/2016/12/14/...ts-not-enough/

First up, the disclaimer:
Quote:
Again, it’s completely possible (and probable, really) that the CIA possesses hard evidence that could establish Russian attribution — it’s their job to have such evidence, and often to keep it secret.
This is my position on it, as well. There are many aspects of the current theory that 'pass the smell test' as it were. There are also, however, some claims that contradict other claims, such as:
Quote:
Compare that description to CrowdStrike’s claim it was able to finger APT 28 and 29, described above as digital spies par excellence, because they were so incredibly sloppy. Would a group whose “tradecraft is superb” with “operational security second to none” really leave behind the name of a Soviet spy chief imprinted on a document it sent to American journalists? Would these groups really be dumb enough to leave cyrillic comments on these documents? Would these groups that “constantly [go] back into the environment to change out their implants, modify persistent methods, move to new Command & Control channels” get caught because they precisely didn’t make sure not to use IP addresses they’d been associated before? It’s very hard to buy the argument that the Democrats were hacked by one of the most sophisticated, diabolical foreign intelligence services in history, and that we know this because they screwed up over and over again.
(Emphasis added)

That has perhaps been my one issue with this as it has grown. The 'orgy of evidence' (to use a term from one of the best horrible movies ever :9) starts to work against itself as a credible implication. Among them being the 'business hours in Russian time zones' bit. When I think hackers, I don't think of people working 9 to 5 shifts (which they may very well do, but not in the sense of being directly related to their nefarious activities). Even state-sponsored electronic espionage being structured around 'office hours' seems a little weird.

Naturally some of this goes off in the other direction of tin-foil-hattery, so I take it with a grain of salt.

What I do consider a rational exercise, however, is considering the open question: what other plausible explanations remain in the face of the most direct, irrefutable evidence?

Which is incredibly tough to consider since there is an abundance of circumstantial evidence and a lot of plausible theorizing that some sources have presented as concrete fact.
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Old 15th December 2016, 05:28 AM   #86
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It seems like the story is far from settled:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-us...-idUSKBN14204E

Exclusive: Top U.S. spy agency has not embraced CIA assessment on Russia hacking - sources

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-insiders.html

EXCLUSIVE: Ex-British ambassador who is now a WikiLeaks operative claims Russia did NOT provide Clinton emails - they were handed over to him at a D.C. park by an intermediary for 'disgusted' Democratic whistleblowers
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Old 15th December 2016, 07:09 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
It seems like the story is far from settled:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-us...-idUSKBN14204E

Exclusive: Top U.S. spy agency has not embraced CIA assessment on Russia hacking - sources

<snip>

I think the headline is just a little bit misleading. The first line of the second paragraph in the article cited;
Quote:
While the Office of the Director of National Intelligence (ODNI) does not dispute the CIA's analysis of Russian hacking operations, it has not endorsed their assessment because of a lack of conclusive evidence that Moscow intended to boost Trump over Democratic opponent Hillary Clinton, said the officials, who declined to be named.
Sounds like some "declined to be named" "officials" are trying to cover both sides of the street.

Plausible dissimulation.
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Old 15th December 2016, 12:58 PM   #88
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If the Putin/Trump bromance ends prematurely, and Russia did indeed hack RNC computers and plans to embarrass Republicans next election, we can bet Democrats will argue we should ignore the dirt on Donald since it's being released by a foreign power with the intention of influencing American voters.
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Old 15th December 2016, 07:39 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
If the Putin/Trump bromance ends prematurely, and Russia did indeed hack RNC computers and plans to embarrass Republicans next election, we can bet Democrats will argue we should ignore the dirt on Donald since it's being released by a foreign power with the intention of influencing American voters.
Meh, "Oh come on! That was four years ago, let's focus on this election, please" is all it will take to defuse that one. American voters are easily duped by a good platitude such as "we need to look forward, not backwards."

If the RNC was also hacked, the most potential for it is probably blackmail fodder for the present or immediate future. The value of it diminishes with every passing day.
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Old 15th December 2016, 07:58 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
About time someone takes a leaf from the alt-right playbook and starts a meme with Trump as the Manchurian Candidate.
It's been done.

ETA: "Muscovite," actually.
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Old 15th December 2016, 08:00 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Meh, "Oh come on! That was four years ago, let's focus on this election, please" is all it will take to defuse that one. American voters are easily duped by a good platitude such as "we need to look forward, not backwards."

If the RNC was also hacked, the most potential for it is probably blackmail fodder for the present or immediate future. The value of it diminishes with every passing day.
Hack both, attack one and blackmail the one you have the worse dirt on or you believe is the weaker, less morally courageous, side.

So much respect Putin has for the Republicans.
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Old 29th December 2016, 11:24 AM   #92
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Now that the US is in the process of retaliating, are the usual suspects still convinced this was non-story?
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Old 29th December 2016, 11:30 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Now that the US is in the process of retaliating, are the usual suspects still convinced this was non-story?
Link?
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Old 29th December 2016, 11:36 AM   #94
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Sure would be nice to have actual evidence. Not anonymous leaks from self-interested parties.

Amazing how many people are willing to take the FBI's and CIA's word for it when it suits them.
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Old 29th December 2016, 11:51 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Link?
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-us...-idUSKBN14H1SR
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Old 29th December 2016, 11:52 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by KwamiFabu View Post
Sure would be nice to have actual evidence. Not anonymous leaks from self-interested parties.

Amazing how many people are willing to take the FBI's and CIA's word for it when it suits them.
Yea. I hear ya.

Russia and Trump are both is WAY more trustworthy.

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Old 29th December 2016, 11:58 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Thanks.
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Old 29th December 2016, 12:38 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by KwamiFabu View Post
Sure would be nice to have actual evidence. Not anonymous leaks from self-interested parties.

Amazing how many people are willing to take the FBI's and CIA's word for it when it suits them.
Every intelligence agency agrees the Russians hacked us. The only people that don't believe it is Trump, his people, and some of his more fervent supporters. Since Trump has been skipping his security briefings he may not be the most trustworthy one in all of this.
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Old 29th December 2016, 12:48 PM   #99
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Sooo...
Not reacting dramatically to the "red line crossing" in Syria was wrong for Obama, but completely ignoring Russian interference in the election is right ?
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Old 29th December 2016, 01:18 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Hack both, attack one and blackmail the one you have the worse dirt on or you believe is the weaker, less morally courageous, side.

So much respect Putin has for the Republicans.
How would hacking the Republican party give Putin blackmail leverage over Trump?
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Old 29th December 2016, 01:24 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Sooo...
Not reacting dramatically to the "red line crossing" in Syria was wrong for Obama
No. Creating a "red line" in the first place was the mistake. Don't make threats you can't or won't back up.
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Old 29th December 2016, 01:39 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How would hacking the Republican party give Putin blackmail leverage over Trump?
It wouldn't. It would give him leverage over the people who will actually be running things for Trump, as he doesn't know what the hell he's doing.

It's possible that wouldn't work as well as Putin hypothetically hopes, but it also doesn't hurt.
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Old 29th December 2016, 02:10 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by KwamiFabu View Post
Sure would be nice to have actual evidence. Not anonymous leaks from self-interested parties.

Amazing how many people are willing to take the FBI's and CIA's word for it when it suits them.

No. What is actually amazing is how people believe what they read on fake news sites (some of which have ties back to Russia) stating that this is all made up and Russia had nothing to do with the hacks... instead of believing what the CIA and FBI are reporting. Heck, congressmen from both parties, which have seen some of the evidence the CIA and FBI have provided them behind closed doors, agree Russia was behind the hacks.

But sure, trust Putin's word instead of the CIA. Yeah. Sounds like a solid plan.
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Old 29th December 2016, 03:05 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by foophil View Post
No. What is actually amazing is how people believe what they read on fake news sites (some of which have ties back to Russia) stating that this is all made up and Russia had nothing to do with the hacks... instead of believing what the CIA and FBI are reporting. Heck, congressmen from both parties, which have seen some of the evidence the CIA and FBI have provided them behind closed doors, agree Russia was behind the hacks.

But sure, trust Putin's word instead of the CIA. Yeah. Sounds like a solid plan.
What are the CIA and FBI "reporting" exactly? What concrete evidence have we seen of this? If it existed, believe me it would've been on the front page of the NYT the next day. Assange denies Russian involvement, and Guccifer 2.0 has freely admitted it. Which is eminently credible since this stuff was on an unsecure server. A teenager could've "hacked" these emails. This is the real scandal, but ... squirrel!

Really rich when you consider Obama was eavesdropping on Merkel's phone calls, Hillary and DWS conspired to deny Bernie the nomination and we spent $350k in taxpayer money to defeat Netanyahu.

But sure, trust Obama and Hillary. They've never lied to us before.
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Old 29th December 2016, 03:40 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by KwamiFabu View Post
What are the CIA and FBI "reporting" exactly? What concrete evidence have we seen of this? If it existed, believe me it would've been on the front page of the NYT the next day. Assange denies Russian involvement, and Guccifer 2.0 has freely admitted it. Which is eminently credible since this stuff was on an unsecure server. A teenager could've "hacked" these emails. This is the real scandal, but ... squirrel!

Really rich when you consider Obama was eavesdropping on Merkel's phone calls, Hillary and DWS conspired to deny Bernie the nomination and we spent $350k in taxpayer money to defeat Netanyahu.

But sure, trust Obama and Hillary. They've never lied to us before.

I get the sense if the Director of the FBI held the evidence onto your forehead while the Director of the CIA stapled it there, you'd still not believe it.


...seems if you ask, you receive.

Just need patience.

http://thehill.com/policy/national-s...russia-hacking
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Old 29th December 2016, 04:08 PM   #106
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President Obama has ordered the expulsion of diplomats. This reminds me of the back and forth "get your diplomats out of here" the Soviets and the US did for a few decades during the cold war when the spy game was played seriously. I expect that Mr Putin will ensure that an equal number of American diplomats are sent home, as he's an old Cold War player.

Same Stuff, Different Decade
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Old 29th December 2016, 07:15 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
I get the sense if the Director of the FBI held the evidence onto your forehead while the Director of the CIA stapled it there, you'd still not believe it.


...seems if you ask, you receive.

Just need patience.

http://thehill.com/policy/national-s...russia-hacking
The same Director of the FBI that Democrats and Republicans both insisted we wait for word from on Hillary's emails? Then Republicans lambasted and Democrats praised for the lack of indictments? Oh, and then Democrats lambasted and Republicans praised for sending a letter to Congress about the emails from the Weiner case? and then...and then...

He does have a bit of a point, but I also think he's "only right by half."

I don't know quite which direction the players in the 'deep state' are going to take. My inclination is that they see clueless reactionaries in power pumping out lots of existential fear. So the really easy play for them is to make a big stink about intelligence and espionage and viola, the money faucets flow and the oversight relaxes as blank checks of every metaphorical variety are written out to them.

The link you supplied is carrying a lot of water for a report that has maybe a 2-page summary of all the same circumstantial, indirect claims I've read over the last few months. The bulk of the report seems to be some graphics that very generically illustrate what 'hacking' is and several pages of suggested security settings for network administrators to be aware of.

It's like a network security PSA with 'the Russians are coming' tacked on to it.
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Old 29th December 2016, 07:49 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by KwamiFabu View Post
If it existed, believe me it would've been on the front page of the NYT the next day.
While we are being skeptical, I don't think this is an evidence based claim.
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Old 29th December 2016, 08:07 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
The same Director of the FBI that Democrats and Republicans both insisted we wait for word from on Hillary's emails? Then Republicans lambasted and Democrats praised for the lack of indictments? Oh, and then Democrats lambasted and Republicans praised for sending a letter to Congress about the emails from the Weiner case? and then...and then...

He does have a bit of a point, but I also think he's "only right by half."

I don't know quite which direction the players in the 'deep state' are going to take. My inclination is that they see clueless reactionaries in power pumping out lots of existential fear. So the really easy play for them is to make a big stink about intelligence and espionage and viola, the money faucets flow and the oversight relaxes as blank checks of every metaphorical variety are written out to them.

The link you supplied is carrying a lot of water for a report that has maybe a 2-page summary of all the same circumstantial, indirect claims I've read over the last few months. The bulk of the report seems to be some graphics that very generically illustrate what 'hacking' is and several pages of suggested security settings for network administrators to be aware of.

It's like a network security PSA with 'the Russians are coming' tacked on to it.
So, stick your fingers in your ears, close your eyes and say "lalala I can't hear you"?

Didn't see that coming.

Isn't that going to be official US policy for just about everything the next 4 years?
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Old 29th December 2016, 08:14 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by KwamiFabu View Post
What are the CIA and FBI "reporting" exactly? What concrete evidence have we seen of this?

Good Lord, why on Earth do you think the CIA would let you in on their no doubt highly classified info? They have shown it to the President and to Congressmen, all who now agree with their assessment. I remind you that people from both parties have looked at it and agreed. But you, a person with zero security clearance, should be privy to material that may put other people's lives at risk? Oh wait, they did release some evidence already to the public (the code used in the hacking), but I imagine you are ready to hand wave that away next.


Quote:
Really rich when you consider Obama was eavesdropping on Merkel's phone calls, Hillary and DWS conspired to deny Bernie the nomination and we spent $350k in taxpayer money to defeat Netanyahu.

All legitimate complaints, though none of which are the topics of this thread. Take them elsewhere and stick to the topic please.


Quote:
But sure, trust Obama and Hillary. They've never lied to us before.

I'm not trusting just them. I'm trusting the CIA, FBI, and others who have seen the evidence and confirmed it is real.
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Old 29th December 2016, 08:39 PM   #111
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Russian MFA spokeswoman has warmed up on her private facebook for tomorrow:

Originally Posted by Maria Zakharova
[...] Today America, the American people were humiliated by their own President. Not by international terrorists, not by enemy troops. This time Washington received a slap in the face by its own master, maximizing the number of urgent matters for the incoming team. Complex steps are needed for the Middle East, not for revenge.

Curtain call. The bad play is over. The whole world, from the orchestra to the balcony, is watching a devastating blow to America's and its leadership's prestige caused by Barack Obama and his illiterate foreign policy team, which disclosed its main secret to the world - the exclusivity was a disguise for helplessness. And no enemy of the United States could do more harm.

P.S. Tomorrow will come the official statements, countermeasures and much more.
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Old 29th December 2016, 09:01 PM   #112
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Ooh...

Scary!
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Old 29th December 2016, 09:08 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Isn't that going to be official US policy for just about everything the next 4 years?
Given that Donald Trump's rhetoric has been all over the map in the last three months, anyone who thinks they can predict what policy will be for the next five months, no less the next 4 years, is on some serious mind altering substances.
You don't know.
I don't know.
I am not sure that The Donald knows.
It is my opinion that he's playing it by ear, so far. Not sure if that will change. We'll see.

Get yourself some popcorn. It will be entertaining, regardless of how it plays out.
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Old 29th December 2016, 09:58 PM   #114
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Okee doke
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Old 29th December 2016, 11:07 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
So, stick your fingers in your ears, close your eyes and say "lalala I can't hear you"?

Didn't see that coming.

Isn't that going to be official US policy for just about everything the next 4 years?
I'm not sticking my fingers in my ears, I remain open to the possibility and numerous ways in which a Russian connection are probable, official or unofficial.

Here's the thing that really kinda scares me. Our President-Elect seems trivially unconcerned with it. He's not all that fire-and-brimstone about waving it off, even. True or untrue, I agree that there should be some impetus to get to the bottom of it. Putting this together with his casual attitude about his security briefings, the intelligence community is probably having some rough sleep lately.
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Old 30th December 2016, 03:09 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
It seems like the story is far from settled:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-us...-idUSKBN14204E

Exclusive: Top U.S. spy agency has not embraced CIA assessment on Russia hacking - sources

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-insiders.html

EXCLUSIVE: Ex-British ambassador who is now a WikiLeaks operative claims Russia did NOT provide Clinton emails - they were handed over to him at a D.C. park by an intermediary for 'disgusted' Democratic whistleblowers
All this comes from the CIA deciding policy, or cocaine Importation and torture and bugging agency as it is sometimes known. America needs sane government, not this CIA policy of supporting Al-Qaeda groups in Syria with military equipment and training in order to topple Assad, and not offending the Jews.

Part of the trouble is that the Russians and wily Turks and Iranians are semi -Asiatics. They don't think like red-blooded Englishmen and they don't play cricket. Crimea always has been part of Russia and they speak Russian in the east of Ukraine.

This CIA propaganda, with their close connections in the mainstream media, that Putin is planning aggression against Latvia and Estonia and Sweden and Poland is not based on evidence. Personally, I think Putin thinks that would interfere with international trade and he is right.

All these silly sanctions to "keep Russia under control" is not right judgment. I think it would be a disaster if Cameron was put in charge of Nato. It would just lead to the spread of Isis, as happened in Libya. It's a monstrous and dangerous policy as usual.
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Old 30th December 2016, 07:01 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
All this comes from the CIA deciding policy, or cocaine Importation and torture and bugging agency as it is sometimes known. America needs sane government, not this CIA policy of supporting Al-Qaeda groups in Syria with military equipment and training in order to topple Assad, and not offending the Jews.

Part of the trouble is that the Russians and wily Turks and Iranians are semi -Asiatics. They don't think like red-blooded Englishmen and they don't play cricket. Crimea always has been part of Russia and they speak Russian in the east of Ukraine.

This CIA propaganda, with their close connections in the mainstream media, that Putin is planning aggression against Latvia and Estonia and Sweden and Poland is not based on evidence. Personally, I think Putin thinks that would interfere with international trade and he is right.

All these silly sanctions to "keep Russia under control" is not right judgment. I think it would be a disaster if Cameron was put in charge of Nato. It would just lead to the spread of Isis, as happened in Libya. It's a monstrous and dangerous policy as usual.

I don't have much to say one way or the other about the rest of your post, but the highlighted portion is simply not true. Read up on the history of Crimea and you'll see it was only recently part of Russia (in historical timelines).

Quote:
Crimea (or the Tauric Peninsula, as it was called from antiquity until the early modern period) has historically been at the boundary between the classical world and the Pontic–Caspian steppe. Its southern fringe was colonised by the ancient Greeks, the Persians, the Romans, the Byzantine Empire, the Crimean Goths, the Genoese and the Ottoman Empire, while at the same time its interior was occupied by a changing cast of invading steppe nomads and empires, such as the Cimmerians, Scythians, Sarmatians, Goths, Alans, Bulgars, Huns, Khazars, Kipchaks, Mongols and the Golden Horde. Crimea and adjacent territories were united in the Crimean Khanate during the 15th to 18th century.

In 1783, Crimea was annexed by the Russian Empire. Following the Russian Revolution of 1917, Crimea became an autonomous republic within the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic in the USSR, though later, during World War Two, it was downgraded to the Crimean Oblast.

In 1954, the Crimean Oblast was transferred to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, by Nikita Khrushchev in order to bolster the "unity of Russians and Ukrainians" and the "great and indissoluble friendship" between the two peoples.[3] It became the Autonomous Republic of Crimea within newly independent Ukraine in 1991, with Sevastopol having its own administration, within Ukraine but outside of the Autonomous Republic.

For only 177 years (give or take) out of thousands of years in the total history of Crimea has it been in Russian/Soviet Union hands. For the last 23 of 25 years, it was part of Ukraine in one form or another... right up until Russia rolled in and took it by force.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea
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Old 30th December 2016, 07:05 AM   #118
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If you want to know what Murray claims or doesn't claim I suggest you listen to the man instead of using filters like the Daily Fail.
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Old 30th December 2016, 08:44 AM   #119
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Putin's reaction is in, a true gem from the master. He's treating the clowns as who they are, refuses to take the bait and ... "moreover I invite all children of US diplomats accredited in Russia to the New Year and Christmas children’s parties in the Kremlin. "



Originally Posted by VV Putin
We regard the recent unfriendly steps taken by the outgoing US administration as provocative and aimed at further weakening the Russia-US relationship. This runs contrary to the fundamental interests of both the Russian and American people. Considering the global security responsibilities of Russia and the United States, this is also damaging to international relations as a whole.

As it proceeds from international practice, Russia has reasons to respond in kind. Although we have the right to retaliate, we will not resort to irresponsible ‘kitchen’ diplomacy but will plan our further steps to restore Russian-US relations based on the policies of the Trump Administration.

The diplomats who are returning to Russia will spend the New Year’s holidays with their families and friends. We will not create any problems for US diplomats. We will not expel anyone. We will not prevent their families and children from using their traditional leisure sites during the New Year’s holidays. Moreover, I invite all children of US diplomats accredited in Russia to the New Year and Christmas children’s parties in the Kremlin.

It is regrettable that the Obama Administration is ending its term in this manner. Nevertheless, I offer my New Year greetings to President Obama and his family.

My season’s greetings also to President-elect Donald Trump and the American people.

I wish all of you happiness and prosperity.
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Last edited by Childlike Empress; 30th December 2016 at 08:48 AM. Reason: copy statement for the pussies afraid to visit the Kremlin website... ;o)
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Old 30th December 2016, 10:01 AM   #120
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Breaking: State Dept expels 20 Nigerian diplomats after John Podesta fails to receive $1 million wire transfer from nephew of General Okezi
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