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Tags 2016 election results , 2016 elections , donald trump , Trump controversies

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Old 9th November 2016, 05:47 PM   #321
Ambrosia
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
That is why the role of 50 equal sovereigns must also be a factor.
That may well be true. I'm from the UK so how you choose your leaders is your business, but, there must be a better way to apportion votes for the most important office in the land than the existing rules.

If the roles of 50 equal sovereign states needs to factor into the choice of the POTUS then outright abolishing the Electoral College is bad, but it's also bad to keep using a system that was setup long before the difference in population between states was so large.
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Old 9th November 2016, 05:47 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
That's the point. A lot of the manufacturing jobs that Trump wants to "Bring back" don't exist anymore.Automated out.
I think that having a stronger manufacturing base in the US is actually a good idea, but don't expect it to bring back thousands of jobs. Donald is selling them a line.
And, BTW, this is pretty much accepted by economist of all stripes,liberal and conservative.
Exactly. Trump was selling bs and the public not knowing any better ate it up.

Me, I'd like to see huge free vocational schools set up across the country where new skills are taught. I also think we have to reduce the standard work week from 40 to maybe 36 or 32. Overtime pay being mandatory for anyone working 36 or 32 hours or more. Companies would put either more money in their employee's pockets or hire more workers. Employers will scream but they screamed when the 40 hour became standard.
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Old 9th November 2016, 05:55 PM   #323
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If somebody offered Trump $6 billion cash to quit the Presidency he would take that deal.
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Old 9th November 2016, 05:58 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Like I said - no good solution I can come up with. It's equally disproportionate for those Chicago and LA folks to decide that Alaskans can't have guns because of the problems with violence in cities

Neither equal representation nor population representation is a good solution by itself.
This is true. But this has got way out of hand. Note that most densely populated area have real needs for social programs and these are inevitably blocked by some Senator from Wyoming or Nebraska.

I've always found it interesting that urban areas tend to be liberal, but if you live in the sticks they are terrified of change.
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Old 9th November 2016, 06:01 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
[Four]times in history the winning candidate has lost the popular vote but won the presidential election. 1876, 1888, 2000, 2016. That's almost 9% of the time an election is held.
The defense of the electoral college is, it depends on how you define fair. In the four elections you mention, the winner, despite losing the overall popular vote (by a narrow margin), always won the most states. As this year, Trump won 30 states to Clinton's 20 while losing the popular vote by 0.2%.

It was the same thing in 2000. Although Gore won the popular vote by 0.5% George Bush carried 30 states. In 1888 Grover Cleveland won the popular vote by 0.8% but carried only 18 states compared to the 20 won by winner Benjamin Harrison. In 1876 Samuel Tilden won the popular vote by 1.0% but carried four fewer states.
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Old 9th November 2016, 06:02 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
That may well be true. I'm from the UK so how you choose your leaders is your business, but, there must be a better way to apportion votes for the most important office in the land than the existing rules.

If the roles of 50 equal sovereign states needs to factor into the choice of the POTUS then outright abolishing the Electoral College is bad, but it's also bad to keep using a system that was setup long before the difference in population between states was so large.
I agree with you Ambrosia. And as an American who loves England, I want to profoundly apologize for Donald Trump.
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Old 9th November 2016, 06:03 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
From what I have seen discussed by historians and scholars that is a pretty good answer ....

This introduction makes it sound like it is some deep academic topic beyond the ken of average Americans. It's actually basic U.S. History. Or don't we teach students about the Great Compromise anymore?

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Old 9th November 2016, 06:07 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
...Me, I'd like to see huge free vocational schools set up across the country where new skills are taught...
That was one of the ideas Hillary Clinton had and, when I heard her talk about it, she emphasized she thought it was "doable" even in the highly partisan age we live in. That it was an idea she'd work on right away if elected.

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Old 9th November 2016, 06:08 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by shuize View Post
This introduction makes it sound like it is some deep academic topic beyond the ken of average Americans. It's actually basic U.S. History. Or don't we teach student about the Great Compromise anymore?
Not everyone on this forum is American and studied US history in depth.
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Old 9th November 2016, 06:11 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
First, each state can allocate their electoral college delegates however they wish. The simple majority rule is not required and two states do not use it.

Second, there are other important values than democracy. The UN does not use global population votes nor assign proportional representation based on population. The EU is bicameral with the council having one vote per nation. The idea that there is a circle of equals among nations is an important value in unions. The electoral college manages to reflect both values at once.
This.
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Old 9th November 2016, 06:14 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
That was one of the ideas Hillary Clinton had and, when I heard her talk about it, she emphasized she thought it was "doable" even in the highly partisan age we live in. That it was an idea she'd work on right away if elected.


I'm not sure about "free," but I like the idea of more training in the skilled trades. I'm not going to tell anyone not to go to university, but I think many people would be better off without the student loan debt for a B.A. in art history or other completely unmarketable degrees.
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Old 9th November 2016, 06:16 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Sorry, I don't understand what you are asking. That is the system they currently use AIUI. The number of EC votes depend on that state's number of Senators and House Reps, which I think might be ultimately dependent on population.

Are you asking me how I would change it and still have it work for 50 states?
I'm asking for A) how you would make it work and B) how would you force all 50 states to use it?
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Old 9th November 2016, 06:19 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Not everyone on this forum is American and studied US history in depth.

Fair enough. But it is something that reasonably educated Americans should know from high school Civics.
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Old 9th November 2016, 06:19 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
It's why we have both a house and a senate, with representation done in two different ways. There is no one-size-fits-all.
I prefer the parliamentary system we have in the commonwealth, but the US system is pretty good, too. It's just become bogged down in a number of ways, not the least of which is partisan politics, but I think having the population elect every single branch of government is a bad idea.
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Old 9th November 2016, 06:19 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
That was one of the ideas Hillary Clinton had and, when I heard her talk about it, she emphasized she thought it was "doable" even in the highly partisan age we live in. That it was an idea she'd work on right away if elected.

I know. I've been suggesting a form of that for years. I hate the for profit schools that are in it only for the money.

I don't think everyone needs to go to college but there are millions of jobs that are not filled because they need people with skills that people aren't getting training for.

I'm disgusted that Trump was elected saddened that Hillary wasn't. She was a horrible candidate but I believe she would have made a great President.
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Old 9th November 2016, 06:20 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
You haven't a clue, the jobs they have will always be around, the trick is getting their wages up.
Why would they always be around when workers in another country will work for much less?

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
That's the point. A lot of the manufacturing jobs that Trump wants to "Bring back" don't exist anymore.Automated out.
I think that having a stronger manufacturing base in the US is actually a good idea, but don't expect it to bring back thousands of jobs. Donald is selling them a line.
And, BTW, this is pretty much accepted by economist of all stripes,liberal and conservative.
We seem to accept that blue collar workers voted for the political equivalent of a homeopathic remedy.
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Old 9th November 2016, 06:22 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by shuize View Post
Fair enough. But it is something that reasonably educated Americans should know from high school Civics.
I agree. But if you look, the people asking these questions about the electoral college are from Canada or overseas.
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Old 9th November 2016, 06:24 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Why would they always be around when workers in another country will work for much less?

We seem to accept that blue collar workers voted for the political equivalent of a homeopathic remedy.
I'm convinced of it.
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Old 9th November 2016, 06:24 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I want to profoundly apologize for Donald Trump.
Don't sweat it. I watched his victory speech, and he sounded more presidential then than at any point in his campaign, so maybe there's a chance that President Trump is better than many of us fear.

I blame the voting system, people cast their votes to try to get the best outcome they can within the confines of the system, and noone can blame them for that. I do exactly the same thing when I vote.

Our election systems are flawed, the Electoral College perhaps a little, the FPTP system extremely so. Until we get a system that represents the voters more fairly we are doomed to be stuck with a 2 party system where the winning party represents a minority of the people it represents.

If Trump does no other good, perhaps his election will point to how flawed our elections are and how much they could be improved.

ETA: You might well be wondering why a non US person is so interested in the US voting system. It's because what America does tends to follow on in other countries later. (which is also why California voting to legalise recreational use of weed is such a good thing, but I digress)

If the US scrapped the FPTP voting system and replaced it with a proportional representation system like STV then it would be a lot more likely that in the UK we would do a similar thing, which can't come soon enough imo.

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Old 9th November 2016, 06:26 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
That was one of the ideas Hillary Clinton had and, when I heard her talk about it, she emphasized she thought it was "doable" even in the highly partisan age we live in. That it was an idea she'd work on right away if elected.
I wonder if there would be a downside to that if it was wildly popular. You could have hundreds or thousands of new graduates showing up at a job opening and all of them have identical degrees from the free school and no work experience.

You'd definitely need a lot of available jobs that pay well and that's a problem now.

Employers would have a dilemma choosing a person out of all the cookie-cutter identical candidates without engaging discrimination. It might force filling a job by lottery because everyone is the same and there are so many of them.

Employers might favor applicants from non-free colleges just because it turns out that they are better educated.
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Old 9th November 2016, 06:34 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't think everyone needs to go to college but there are millions of jobs that are not filled because they need people with skills that people aren't getting training for.
There aren't a million jobs in any small town in rural America. It doesn't matter what your skills may be. Those are the people who elected him.
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Old 9th November 2016, 06:35 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by shuize View Post
I'm not sure about "free," but I like the idea of more training in the skilled trades. I'm not going to tell anyone not to go to university, but I think many people would be better off without the student loan debt for a B.A. in art history or other completely unmarketable degrees.
I have one of those unmarketable degrees. I have a degree in political science from the University of Washington. The joke was, now I'm qualified to vote and teach and teaching was questionable. I then spent 30 years in sales. I still think I would be better off if I had chosen engineering.

But I do think it should be free or damn close to free. Most of my college was paid for though scholarships and government grants. I can't imagine being saddled with 100 thousand dollars of debt as so many people are these days.
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Old 9th November 2016, 06:44 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
There aren't a million jobs in any small town in rural America. It doesn't matter what your skills may be. Those are the people who elected him.
There are millions of job opportunities in America not specifically in the sticks. But there are lots of small factories in small towns all across the country. No leader is going to reverse the demographic shift to the cities.
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Old 9th November 2016, 06:45 PM   #344
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We don't know what the popular vote would have looked like without the electoral college, because the fact that if exists heavily informs campaign strategy. Trump put very little focus in California, knowing that there was no way he could surpass 50% of the vote. Similarly, voter turnout was suppressed because a lot of people won't bother voting when they know the candidate they support has zero chance of taking any electoral votes in the state. If it was a popular vote, Trump would have campaigned hard in the state and thousands more would have gone to vote knowing that every vote mattered and it wasn't just a throwaway. Hillary would still have won more than 50% in the state, but not by nearly as large a margin.

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Old 9th November 2016, 06:50 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by shuize View Post
I wasn't a huge Trump fan. But I'm enjoying watching all the smug liberals turning into pouty crybabies.
Will you get out of my brain!
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Old 9th November 2016, 07:03 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
Don't sweat it. I watched his victory speech, and he sounded more presidential then than at any point in his campaign, so maybe there's a chance that President Trump is better than many of us fear.
I didn't see it, but I'm encouraged by your description.

So I guess he must've apologized for his pathological lying, his contemptible behavior to the press, his heartless mocking of the disabled? He no doubt offered heartfelt regret for his treatment and disregard of women (not to mention minorities), his un-American contempt for the constitution, his blatant greed? And I bet it was wonderful to hear him finally apologize to President Obama for his multiyear campaign to undermine and delegitimize his eligibility and citizenship, right?

What, he did none of those things?

Then please don't suggest that somehow Donald Trump, who's been Donald Trump for 70 years, is suddenly not going to be Donald Trump. Please don't imagine that if we only let it simmer on the stove a little longer a frying pan of feces is going to turn into sirloin steak.

Honestly.
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Old 9th November 2016, 07:03 PM   #347
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I don't know why people make the "save the small States from big States" claim with regards to the EC. The small fly-over States are not swing States and get no attention anyway. The large States like California and New York are too lopsided and get no attention as well.

In practice it is the few competitive States that decide the election vs the majority (in number and population) non-competitive ones that are ignored. This is reflected in campaigning.

As for the "will of the Founders", the current system is a jury rigging of the original one, which was even more undemocratic.

The idea that we need to preserve State dignity or some such thing is archaic nonsense as well. We are a federation with a national government, not a confederation or vague union like the UN or EU. No one is loyal to their State like they were in the Articles of Confederation days.
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Old 9th November 2016, 07:04 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
That may well be true. I'm from the UK so how you choose your leaders is your business, but, there must be a better way to apportion votes for the most important office in the land than the existing rules.

If the roles of 50 equal sovereign states needs to factor into the choice of the POTUS then outright abolishing the Electoral College is bad, but it's also bad to keep using a system that was setup long before the difference in population between states was so large.

Here's the big problem, though: short of a straight-up revolution, only the winners have the power to change the system, and they won't be very inclined to "fix" the very system that made them winners in the first place. They take the fact that they won, and not the other person, as evidence it isn't broken.

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Old 9th November 2016, 07:07 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
We don't know what the popular vote would have looked like without the electoral college, because the fact that if exists heavily informs campaign strategy. Trump put very little focus in California, knowing that there was no way he could surpass 50% of the vote. Similarly, voter turnout was suppressed because a lot of people won't bother voting when they know the candidate they support has zero chance of taking any electoral votes in the state. If it was a popular vote, Trump would have campaigned hard in the state and thousands more would have gone to vote knowing that every vote mattered and it wasn't just a throwaway. Hillary would still have won more than 50% in the state, but not by nearly as large a margin.

Yes. This describes many of my right of center family members in California who often stay home because they feel their votes are Basically worthless.
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Old 9th November 2016, 07:15 PM   #350
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We don't know what the popular vote would have looked like without the electoral college, because the fact that if exists heavily informs campaign strategy. Trump put very little focus in California, knowing that there was no way he could surpass 50% of the vote. Similarly, voter turnout was superseded because a lot of people won't bother voting when they know the candidate they support has zero chance of taking any electoral votes in the state. If it was a popular vote, Trump would have campaigned hard in the state and thousands more would have gone to vote. Hillary would still have won, but not by nearly as large a margin. It's very possible, even likely, that Trump would have won a popular vote contest if that had been the system within which they were campaigning.

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Old 9th November 2016, 07:19 PM   #351
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Sorry for the semi duplicate post. Added a line at the end and somehow it posted again.
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Old 9th November 2016, 07:22 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
I didn't see it, but I'm encouraged by your description.

So I guess he must've apologized for his pathological lying, his contemptible behavior to the press, his heartless mocking of the disabled? He no doubt offered heartfelt regret for his treatment and disregard of women (not to mention minorities), his un-American contempt for the constitution, his blatant greed? And I bet it was wonderful to hear him finally apologize to President Obama for his multiyear campaign to undermine and delegitimize his eligibility and citizenship, right?

What, he did none of those things?

Then please don't suggest that somehow Donald Trump, who's been Donald Trump for 70 years, is suddenly not going to be Donald Trump. Please don't imagine that if we only let it simmer on the stove a little longer a frying pan of feces is going to turn into sirloin steak.

Honestly.

yes, discounting him worked so well before, do continue to take that route, I'm sure it will work out great....this time
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Old 9th November 2016, 07:29 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm not sure that matters. How do you get rid of it?

1. It's part of the Constitution and amending it has become close to an impossibility.
2. The popular vote has issues as well, but it might work today.
Amending the Constitution is not necessary. While the Electoral College is established by the Constitution, it is the state governments that determine how their electoral votes are awarded. Most states go by the winner take all strategy, but if a group of states worth more than 270 electoral votes agreed to give their votes to whoever won the nationwide popular vote, we can have a de facto popular vote for president.
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Old 9th November 2016, 07:30 PM   #354
Regnad Kcin
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
yes, discounting him worked so well before, do continue to take that route, I'm sure it will work out great....this time
More than a three word post! I'm honored.

To reply, sometimes past performance does predict future results.
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Old 9th November 2016, 07:38 PM   #355
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by Random View Post
Amending the Constitution is not necessary. While the Electoral College is established by the Constitution, it is the state governments that determine how their electoral votes are awarded. Most states go by the winner take all strategy, but if a group of states worth more than 270 electoral votes agreed to give their votes to whoever won the nationwide popular vote, we can have a de facto popular vote for president.
The states have always been allowed to apportion their votes as the states themselves see fit. So I guess you are right Your idea would be an end around to amending the constitution.
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Old 9th November 2016, 07:42 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
More than a three word post! I'm honored.
Print it and laminate it.
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Old 9th November 2016, 07:49 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The states have always been allowed to apportion their votes as the states themselves see fit. So I guess you are right Your idea would be an end around to amending the constitution.
Not really his idea, but an actual movement discussed on PBS NewsHour the other day. I don't recall the name of the pact.

Note the downside: there will be no reason really to visit rural areas, since dense areas give more bang for the buck in a purely popular election. It ends up removing emphasis from the states and placing it on population density.
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Old 9th November 2016, 08:10 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Not really his idea, but an actual movement discussed on PBS NewsHour the other day. I don't recall the name of the pact.

Note the downside: there will be no reason really to visit rural areas, since dense areas give more bang for the buck in a purely popular election. It ends up removing emphasis from the states and placing it on population density.

Not to mention diluting their influence in the overall election. But, hey, fair's fair. I say we start by asking Democrats to give up their headlock on the 84 electoral votes California and New York represent.

Last edited by shuize; 9th November 2016 at 08:11 PM.
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Old 9th November 2016, 08:11 PM   #359
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Not really his idea, but an actual movement discussed on PBS NewsHour the other day. I don't recall the name of the pact.

Note the downside: there will be no reason really to visit rural areas, since dense areas give more bang for the buck in a purely popular election. It ends up removing emphasis from the states and placing it on population density.
This is true but right now they are ignoring New York, Massachusetts, California, Texas and a dozen other states.
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Old 9th November 2016, 08:21 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
FWIW, we have probably finished putting the nails in the coffin for the battle against climate change tonight too.
Indeed. Greed and stupidity will cost humanity a livable environment. Yay, cockroaches.
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