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Tags racism charges , Trump supporters

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Old 19th November 2016, 04:47 PM   #41
Skeptical Greg
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Spoken like a true privileged white male heterosexual.
.....
You forgot gun hugging....
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Old 19th November 2016, 05:18 PM   #42
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It becomes clearer why Trump won.
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Old 19th November 2016, 05:54 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
It becomes clearer why Trump won.
Hell it is becoming clearer that the dems are going to lose the midterms and maybe the 2020 at this point.

Newsflash: dems have lost touch with rural middle class voters.
Response: everyone who voted for trump is teh bigot!

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Old 19th November 2016, 06:22 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Hell it is becoming clearer that the dems are going to lose the midterms and maybe the 2020 at this point.

Newsflash: dems have lost touch with rural middle class voters.
Response: everyone who voted for trump is teh bigot!


Are you finally done pretending to be a Sanders supporter then?

Nice cherry picking too. I see a lot of people in this thread answering 'no' including the OP.
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Old 19th November 2016, 06:37 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Many folks say ALL Trump supporters are racists and bigots.

I disagree.

I think many of them are. But the majority are not.

However, EVERY Trump supporter I know or have encountered in person or on the internet, is a racist and a bigot.
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Are you finally done pretending to be a Sanders supporter then?

Nice cherry picking too. I see a lot of people in this thread answering 'no' including the OP.
Talk about cherry picking, ya missed the last line did ya?

'K.

I assume that most sanders supporters are horrified at the extensive whining the Shillaries have done the last two weeks.
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Old 19th November 2016, 06:48 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Talk about cherry picking, ya missed the last line did ya?

'K.

I assume that most sanders supporters are horrified at the extensive whining the Shillaries have done the last two weeks.

I didn't miss the last line. His post still contradicts your assertion though.

Basically he's saying he assumes some are good people.

And are you still pretending to be a Sanders supporter or not? It's getting confusing.

EDIT: That last line is a sampling bias example. The only people he was able to identify as Trump supporters are those openly bigoted towards a race. This doesn't mean that all the Trump supports he's spoken to are, but that he was unable to identify them as Trump supporters. It's an easy error to make, and is exacerbated by things like the loudest supporters also being people who have displayed racist words or actions.
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Last edited by tyr_13; 19th November 2016 at 07:05 PM. Reason: To add
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Old 19th November 2016, 06:57 PM   #47
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All human beings are racist, but Trump supporters on the whole are nowhere near as racist as I'd like them to be.
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Old 19th November 2016, 07:25 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
'Almost certainly not' and 'we don't know' aren't mutually exclusive.
Right, they're not mutually exclusive.

As it happens, I know a non-racist Trump supporter. You might not believe me, but my buddy is sufficient evidence for me, so in fact I know that some Trump supporters aren't racist.
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Old 19th November 2016, 07:50 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
....This, on the other hand... you say that like Trump's promises mean something.

This is a bit of a mix of things, though. Soaring student debt, for example, isn't Trump or his administration's fault, whether or not they address it. Furthermore, Trump's already given notable reason to believe that he's breaking a bunch of his campaign promises. Going past that, the Senate and House being dominated by Republicans with goals like what you pointed out is of notably more real concern in a number of ways.

Still, to single out that last bit, Trump trying to charge into outright war is closer to an expection than a mere unsubstantiated possibility. Whether Congress gives him enough rope to make it official is a notably different matter.
The alt-right that brought Trump to power and are now using him to lead their quests most certainly can carry out those threats. It's been a long time leading up to this. It didn't happen overnight.
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Old 19th November 2016, 07:54 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by zorro99 View Post
A significant number of his supporters are racist.
And the rest of them didn't care enough about it to not vote for him.
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Old 19th November 2016, 08:20 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
It becomes clearer why Trump won.
Yup.

I try to tell myself that the membership at ISF is not a representative sample of the population at large. Because if it is, then we're going to see a lot of red in all three branches of government for a long time.

That Jonathan Pie Youtube clip should be mandatory viewing every time we fire up a browser window, every day for the next two years.
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Old 19th November 2016, 08:23 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Probably not, but they voted for one. They need to own that.
Originally Posted by Travis View Post
No, they are not all racist. But they are all terrible people. It just happens there are many ways to be terrible.
Originally Posted by Ray Brady View Post
No, not all Trump supporters are racist. But for every last one of them, Trump's racism was not a deal-breaker.
All that too ^
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Old 19th November 2016, 08:31 PM   #53
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How will Trump's presidency affect me? Probably not much, myself. However, my fiancee could very well lose her health insurance and die (she is very sick right now with several surgery related issues). If it wasn't for Obama care, she would be dead right now. And if you're wondering why we just don't get married so she can have insurance, you're stupid and probably don't take marriage very seriously.
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Old 19th November 2016, 08:33 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
You know what, you're right.

I'm not a Muslim.

I'm not a woman.

I'm not a homosexual.

I'm not Hispanic.

I'm not an illegal immigrant.

I don't work for the media.

Trump would never hurt me. I'm safe.

**** the rest of em'. I'll be safe.
Substitute "he" for the name and you'd have a pretty good poem.

ETA:
Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
My comment had no hyperbole.

But yours did include some nonsense about GITMO.
Not GITMO. Guatemala.

Last edited by Minoosh; 19th November 2016 at 08:38 PM.
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Old 19th November 2016, 08:39 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
Yup.

I try to tell myself that the membership at ISF is not a representative sample of the population at large. Because if it is, then we're going to see a lot of red in all three branches of government for a long time.

That Jonathan Pie Youtube clip should be mandatory viewing every time we fire up a browser window, every day for the next two years.
I had never heard of Jonathan Pie, but I watched the video.

It's a very good video. People should watch it. And think about it.
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Old 19th November 2016, 08:48 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
It becomes clearer why Trump won.
Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
Yup.

I try to tell myself that the membership at ISF is not a representative sample of the population at large. Because if it is, then we're going to see a lot of red in all three branches of government for a long time.

That Jonathan Pie Youtube clip should be mandatory viewing every time we fire up a browser window, every day for the next two years.
It really, really doesn't.

As much as I think people thinking all Trump supporters are racist isn't helpful and is a negative, it is not, from all I've been able to figure out, why Trump won. There are many factors, and I think that's a relatively minor one.

I've been trying very hard not to read into the election only what I wanted to hear. I don't want to just reinforce what I already believed; I want to find the truth. One terrible problem is that other people, even on the 'winning side', will be predisposed to see only what they wanted to see. For example, some are going to say that the election was proof that America is massively racist while others are going to say that it's a refuting of progressive ideas in general. Both of these things have evidence against them.

People not getting the message you advocate doesn't mean they aren't willing to listen. People not agreeing doesn't make one right. It doesn't mean they aren't giving it a fair shake.

So I've been listening to why people think they voted for Trump, and while some (well, in fact many) are in fact racist reasons, others are not. There are non-racist Trump voters. Trying to bring this back to the OP anyway.

Something I saw earlier was the implication that minorities 'can't be racist'. This is an idea that isn't as popular on the left or with progressives as Trump supporters and other conservatives think it is, but it does exist. Many of us on the left have for a long time combated this thinking in our fellow liberals. Yes, minorities can be racist. As a point of fact, I know some black Trump voters who did so for extremely racist reasons. I've been exposed to some horrid racism from black people, both against me and against minorities who are not black. Latinos can be racist. Asians can be racist. Part of Trump's appeal was people heard what they wanted to hear, and for example, some black people ignored the few racist things Trump said about blacks and approved of the racist things he said about 'Mexicans' (like the judge in his fraud case) or refugees from the Middle East.
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Old 19th November 2016, 08:48 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The alt-right that brought Trump to power and are now using him to lead their quests most certainly can carry out those threats. It's been a long time leading up to this. It didn't happen overnight.
Unfortunately.
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Old 19th November 2016, 08:51 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And the rest of them didn't care enough about it to not vote for him.
It didn't seem to bother Hillary supporters that she is a rapist enabler..
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Old 19th November 2016, 08:59 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
I didn't miss the last line. His post still contradicts your assertion though.

Basically he's saying he assumes some are good people.

And are you still pretending to be a Sanders supporter or not? It's getting confusing.

EDIT: That last line is a sampling bias example. The only people he was able to identify as Trump supporters are those openly bigoted towards a race. This doesn't mean that all the Trump supports he's spoken to are, but that he was unable to identify them as Trump supporters. It's an easy error to make, and is exacerbated by things like the loudest supporters also being people who have displayed racist words or actions.
Say you learned about cherry picking.

Nice defense tho of the silly thread. Not all trump supporters are racists just everyone I have ever met!



Not all Shillaries are whiners either I assume.
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Old 19th November 2016, 09:31 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post

If you are low income and you need birth control, funding and clinics are becoming scarce in some areas.
Stop screwing?
Quote:
If you are black and worried the police are a little trigger happy, no worries, Trump is just going to add more cops in your town.
Less police would make it better?
[quote]
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Old 19th November 2016, 09:33 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Say you learned about cherry picking.
I wish you would...

Quote:
Nice defense tho of the silly thread. Not all trump supporters are racists just everyone I have ever met!

...because then you'd feel bad when you post stuff like this!

Quote:
Not all Shillaries are whiners either I assume.
Are you accusing anyone specifically of being paid to post, rather than honestly holding the views they are espousing? It would take actual honesty and intellectual fortitude to make such an accusation outright, while what you're doing here is in fact the opposite. You're attempting to cast those arguing with you as dishonest without actually calling them dishonest, which is in and of itself dishonest. You're not engaging in this discussion in good faith, and thus your input in it is without use. You're exactly what I was talking about when I said that while looking for the truth I had to watch out of those who only see what they want to see from the election.

I'd advise everyone to discount your views on this. The views themselves may or may not have merit, but your argument of them is without merit.
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Old 19th November 2016, 09:40 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
I wish you would...



...because then you'd feel bad when you post stuff like this!



Are you accusing anyone specifically of being paid to post, rather than honestly holding the views they are espousing? It would take actual honesty and intellectual fortitude to make such an accusation outright, while what you're doing here is in fact the opposite. You're attempting to cast those arguing with you as dishonest without actually calling them dishonest, which is in and of itself dishonest. You're not engaging in this discussion in good faith, and thus your input in it is without use. You're exactly what I was talking about when I said that while looking for the truth I had to watch out of those who only see what they want to see from the election.

I'd advise everyone to discount your views on this. The views themselves may or may not have merit, but your argument of them is without merit.
Why would anyone take your advice? You voted for Hillary.
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Old 19th November 2016, 09:42 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Why would anyone take your advice? You voted for Hillary.
This is an completely invalid argument. Hopefully other conservatives recognize that if they don't dispute people on their side doing what you're doing here, they'll end up in the same position as the liberals are now. Again.
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Old 19th November 2016, 10:12 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
It really, really doesn't.

As much as I think people thinking all Trump supporters are racist isn't helpful and is a negative, it is not, from all I've been able to figure out, why Trump won. There are many factors, and I think that's a relatively minor one.
<...>

Apologies for snipping so much, but I wanted to focus on this bit - don't take that as me writing off or ignoring the rest of what you had to say.

I agree with you - liberal intolerance is not at all the only reason we elected the Bloviating Gasbag. I think my PoV is that it played a larger part in things than you seem to think it did, but that's okay - your view vs. mine is merely a difference of degree, rather than kind, and there's nothing wrong with that. For my part I didn't for a moment want to imply that "SAFE SPACES!" were the single only reason Trump won. But I strongly feel intolerance of deviation from what we've come to see as the Right Way played a non-trivial part in bringing us to where we are.

One of the few meatspace rhetorical victories I've won was arguing with someone who thought marriage equality would open the floodgates for people looking to 'scam the system' in some unspecified way. Rather than shouting him down as a bigot I asked him to clarify what he meant, and challenged him on what I thought were the weaknesses in his position. He had a regressive repugnance about him, but rather than shriek and denounce him for it, I tried to show him the flaws in his line of thought. I don't think I totally convinced him, but I know I at least shook the foundations of his certainty. I got him to at least reconsider his bigoted PoV, and that was at least something.

Getting him to be less cock-sure about 'them faggots who just wanted to rip the rest of us off' was just one step in getting one person to consider a viewpoint different to the one he'd been married to. If I'd simply called him a homophobic knuckle-dragger, there wouldn't have even been that much of a victory. I most likely won't be able to convince a Stormfronter that that Jews really aren't out to get him. But maybe I can give a fellow liberal a gentle nudge and convince them that someone failing to use a preferred pronoun doesn't make that person as evil as Goebbels, and that treating that person as such will most likely deafen them to the message of tolerance and acceptance we'd like them to hear.

Liberal intolerance is not the only reason we're in the situation we're in, and it may or may not be the largest reason. But it's the one we, as liberals, have the most immediate influence on, and is where I feel we should start the work on restoring some sanity to social/political discourse in our society.
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Old 19th November 2016, 10:55 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
Apologies for snipping so much, but I wanted to focus on this bit - don't take that as me writing off or ignoring the rest of what you had to say.

I agree with you - liberal intolerance is not at all the only reason we elected the Bloviating Gasbag. I think my PoV is that it played a larger part in things than you seem to think it did, but that's okay - your view vs. mine is merely a difference of degree, rather than kind, and there's nothing wrong with that. For my part I didn't for a moment want to imply that "SAFE SPACES!" were the single only reason Trump won. But I strongly feel intolerance of deviation from what we've come to see as the Right Way played a non-trivial part in bringing us to where we are.
One of the problems with analyzing election results is that we look at something that played only a minor role in influencing the way people vote, and dismiss it as insignificant, forgetting that this election was lost by something like 0.5% of the vote. Change that many votes, and Florida and Michigan turn blue. I'm not sure about Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. Maybe they would need a full 1%.

You also have to remember that most of the electorate had made up their minds before the first vote was cast in the primaries. Most people were going to vote for either the Republican or Democratic nominee regardless of who it was.

So you have to look at what swayed the remainder, and there, I think the things you mention, and the things Jonathan Pie mentioned, come into play in a pretty big way.

Also, when considering the margin of victory, I think racism played almost no role in this election at all. The real racists were among those who were going to vote Republican no matter what. Four years ago, Mitt Romney lost to Barack Obama. There hasn't been a whole lot of turnover in the population during those four years. If we say that racism is the reason people voted for Trump, you have to explain why some of those people, enough to form the margin of victory, voted for Obama four years ago. Their racism prevented them from voting for Hillary Clinton, but not for Barack Obama? Or was it that Romney was insufficiently racist, so they figured they might as well vote for the black guy, but now that they had a real racist to vote for, they went for it?

I don't think it makes sense.
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Old 19th November 2016, 11:08 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Check back when you have more than hyperbole...
Or you could check back after <SNIP>
Edited by Locknar:  SNIPed, breach of rule 12.
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Old 19th November 2016, 11:13 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
No, they are not all racist. But they are all terrible people. It just happens there are many ways to be terrible.
Far too many!!!!!! It's part of why I am often accused of having a bad attitude................ Doesn't bother me though!!!!!
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Old 20th November 2016, 12:41 AM   #68
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This is a question like "were all Germans fascists in the 1930s?" The answer is obviously no but there was manipulation of the majority by the right wing through the media particularly social media to provide a scapegoat that people could feel was responsible for the failings in the economy, security and status of the country. This is what we are potentially seeing both in the USA and in the U.K. It is easier to blame someone else for a countries failings rather than tackle real problems and the right wing has no scruples about the use of propaganda. So no not all Trump supporters were racists probably not even the majority of them but their justified fear was used and manipulated and given a target and a name.

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Old 20th November 2016, 04:55 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
It really, really doesn't.

As much as I think people thinking all Trump supporters are racist isn't helpful and is a negative, it is not, from all I've been able to figure out, why Trump won. There are many factors, and I think that's a relatively minor one.

I've been trying very hard not to read into the election only what I wanted to hear. I don't want to just reinforce what I already believed; I want to find the truth. One terrible problem is that other people, even on the 'winning side', will be predisposed to see only what they wanted to see. For example, some are going to say that the election was proof that America is massively racist while others are going to say that it's a refuting of progressive ideas in general. Both of these things have evidence against them.

People not getting the message you advocate doesn't mean they aren't willing to listen. People not agreeing doesn't make one right. It doesn't mean they aren't giving it a fair shake.

So I've been listening to why people think they voted for Trump, and while some (well, in fact many) are in fact racist reasons, others are not. There are non-racist Trump voters. Trying to bring this back to the OP anyway.

Something I saw earlier was the implication that minorities 'can't be racist'. This is an idea that isn't as popular on the left or with progressives as Trump supporters and other conservatives think it is, but it does exist. Many of us on the left have for a long time combated this thinking in our fellow liberals. Yes, minorities can be racist. As a point of fact, I know some black Trump voters who did so for extremely racist reasons. I've been exposed to some horrid racism from black people, both against me and against minorities who are not black. Latinos can be racist. Asians can be racist. Part of Trump's appeal was people heard what they wanted to hear, and for example, some black people ignored the few racist things Trump said about blacks and approved of the racist things he said about 'Mexicans' (like the judge in his fraud case) or refugees from the Middle East.
Can I just please state that left and liberal and not synonyms. Liberal and left policies are very different in many areas, but they do overlap in some areas as do liberal and right policies. That does not mean that liberal policies are inherently "centralist" they are simply not on the same axis as the traditional right and left.
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Old 20th November 2016, 05:46 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Why would anyone take your advice? You voted for Hillary.
So did the vast majority of voters.

Don't pretend you people have some sort of mandate. You're skating on very thin ice.
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Old 20th November 2016, 06:11 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
Yup.

I try to tell myself that the membership at ISF is not a representative sample of the population at large. Because if it is, then we're going to see a lot of red in all three branches of government for a long time.

That Jonathan Pie Youtube clip should be mandatory viewing every time we fire up a browser window, every day for the next two years.
ISF is a fascinating echo chamber. It is fun to watch.
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Old 20th November 2016, 09:51 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
It becomes clearer why Trump won.
By all means, expand on this point so that readers can share your in your new found clarity.

What specifically in this thread clears things up for you, and why?
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Old 20th November 2016, 11:09 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
How, exactly, is the Trump administration going to effect your life?

Looking at being sent back to Guatemala?
Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Check back when you have more than hyperbole...
Seriously?
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Old 20th November 2016, 12:21 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh I think we put equal weight on emails (dishonesty) her malignant narcissism (it is her turn!) and fascist tendencies (clear the field or get crushed) and less on her fake news stories (media matters etal)
To put things straight. Absent Trump, this was Jeb Bush's time on the republicker side and it was Hillary's on the good side. And anyone who does not follow that does not know enough about the political process (skipping the voter thing) to be talking about it. Trump was the idiot triumphant that stole the election from both of them. Neither party will forget that and neither will fail to do whatever is necessary to fix it for the future.
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Old 20th November 2016, 12:28 PM   #75
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Everyone who doesn't agree with me about every topic to the exact same degree, with the exact same priorities, using the exact same rhetoric, while drawing the exact same lines in the sand and choosing the exact same hills to die defending is obviously a racist, sexist, homophobic, Islamaphobic, Croc wearing, Nickelback listening to, hypocritical, bigot.
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Old 20th November 2016, 12:37 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Everyone who doesn't agree with me about every topic to the exact same degree, with the exact same priorities, using the exact same rhetoric, while drawing the exact same lines in the sand and choosing the exact same hills to die defending is obviously a racist, sexist, homophobic, Islamaphobic, Croc wearing, Nickelback listening to, hypocritical, bigot.
That was uncalled for.
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Old 20th November 2016, 01:22 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I think the answer is: almost certainly not. Even if a great number of Trump supporters are racist, it is almost certainly not the case that all of them are.
The problem is that even if many are not racists they, by helping elect one, are effectively acting as/supporting racists and racism. By your choices you are known.
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Old 20th November 2016, 01:24 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's a wonder your side not only lost the election, but was completely blindsided by this inferior moron horde.
Nope, blindsided by incompetent pollsters.
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Old 20th November 2016, 01:29 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
The problem is that even if many are not racists they, by helping elect one, are effectively acting as/supporting racists and racism. By your choices you are known.
To be honest, I don't think that Trump is a racist. I think he hasn't the conviction to be a racist. He's just a weenie.
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Old 20th November 2016, 01:32 PM   #80
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Seriously though I gonna buck the trend.

No I don't think everyone who voted for Trump is a racist, either intentionally or by proxy or by complacence.

We could quibble that they aren't showing appropriate levels of racial sensitivity, but they are not racist.

Semantics aside I fully do believe that for the most part the "Voter Base" that elected Trump did so in spite of his racially charged rhetoric, not because of it.
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