Swamp not to be drained

[332nd]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

One of my customers used to be a manufacturer near Manchester that makes all the 5th wheel couplings for HGV manufacturers in Europe, they supplied several.
They used to have a welding shop staffed by about twenty welders per shift. Now they employ one welder per shift in case any welds fail inspection and all the welding work is done by robots.

Yeah, I've worked at Amazon warehouses off & on up until about 2 years ago, & the last one I worked at was their "cutting edge" facility in Kenosha WI. Has less than half of the (item) pickers of the older facilities because bots are doing the work.

[quadraginta]

Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes

<snip>

the old fossil fuel extraction industries are not driving a great deal of new employment. How are Republican policies with regards to the energy industry, and how might they return growth in jobs in a sustainable, non-suicidal fashion?

And they aren't going to.

In the last half of the 20th century coal production per man-hour increased around fivefold, both in underground and surface mining. That's what automation did. Jobs for people were not filled by more people as that production per man-hour increased. They were mining as much coal as they could sell.

Those jobs aren't coming back.

In a sort of irony, in the last ten years production per man-hour has declined a bit. This is probably because there is a minimum infrastructure of employees need to maintain a certain output even though sales are declining due to the availability of cheaper energy sources. Not because they were hiring more people.

A lot of that competition comes from other fossil fuels which conservatives have been busily boosting. Shale oil, fracking, etc. All having extraction technology which requires even less people for an equivalent energy harvest. A little more irony there.

Quote:

I think I'll rest my case with respect to automation.

<snip>

The only ones with any doubts are the ones wearing their Trump supplied blindfolds.

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes

When running EMEA, I had our country sales leaders look at revenues and corporate profits per capita, and total company employment, then cross-index business databases for sales opportunity. The top employers at the time were in banking and automotive manufacturing, of which the second is germane to discussion. That is, in very many countries, manufacturing jobs were dominated by various component enterprises serving the automotive industry, and, of course, the main manufacturers. Have you been in an automotive or part manufacturing facility recently? The change in this industry alone is significant, and no amount of bringing those factories back will bring back 1980's Reagan levels of employment in the industry.

It is true that most of the local factories here are in support of the automotive industry. I've been inside many of our factories in KY. Some as an employee but most as a visitor. I've seen automation yes but it's not anything that would replace the hundreds/thousands of workers employed at most facilities. In response I'd have to bring up Detroit as an example. "Motor City" has been gutted by the exit of the automotive industry there. Automation was not a key factor. The factories simply left for lower wages outside the US. However, the support factories here and the factories in Detroit were doing fairly well during the Reagan years. You see, even though automation may replace certain workers during a process, relocation of the company replaces them all.

Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes

This leaves us the post-industrial IT revolution, and given your certainty, I'd like to hear about your views as to trends in IT itself with respect to automation.... If that seems a wash, we might try the so-called green industries (energy) as vehicles for future manufacturing growth, especially since the old fossil fuel extraction industries are not driving a great deal of new employment. How are Republican policies with regards to the energy industry, and how might they return growth in jobs in a sustainable, non-suicidal fashion?

I do agree that IT has been the new cash cow for the US beginning sometime around the era that everyone began using home computers. But even that has been outsourced just as the auto industry jobs of old. So even though the IT sector may appear to be strong on Wall Street now, with more outsourcing happening every day, it will quickly follow the automobile in production outside the US. So with the current view of the US as merely the end consumer, IT jobs will still be plentiful, just not within the US as far as the manufacturing is concerned. Support work, sure, that'll remain. Just like auto mechanics. As no matter where it's made, somebody has to fix it when it breaks.

The Green jobs plan was a failure. And while the US is fully capable of leading the World in Green tech and production the reality is we cannot compete with a closed system such as China. You see, when you don't allow your currency to be traded outside the Country you have a great deal of control over its value as compared with other World currencies. You are able to make the value of it less when compared to other currencies, but since you have a closed system, internally your currency still has its normal value for purchasing power. China has been doing this for years. Though the trend seems to be slowing now and China seems to be raising their currency in baby steps (guess why) the damage has already been done. It's a very clever business strategy and has worked much the same as Walmart's. Move into a market, lower prices below competitor's, bankrupt competitors, raise prices. The only difference is China has done this with the World market by lowering the value of their currency. Now with mission complete they can raise their currency value to appear as though they've been playing fairly all along. Of course our negotiators on trade deals have been too stupid to recognize this very simple yet effective strategy.

US energy production could very well open up. Even though Obama has been working frantically to tie up future energy production for some reason before leaving office. EPA regulations that limit production and make it more costly to produce oil could very well be lifted.

I have a great example for you. I have property and other oil leases in LeGrande KY. It was a major oil production pool in the 1930's. Many wells came in flowing 300 to 500 barrels per day back when they were first drilled then were plugged when they went down to 6 barrels a day production.

During the early 90's, I purchased an old cable tool drilling rig, restored it and began opening up some of those old wells. 6 barrels of oil a day wasn't profitable in the 1930's, but at $50+ a barrel in the 90's, these old wells were money makers. So I was doing fairly good until.......the EPA put a stop to it.

You see, I had been producing my wells legally without problem then came some new regulations requiring me to drop about $50K on a new deep injection well for my sulfur water. You see, oil from that formation is pumped to the surface mixed with sulfur water, the oil is separated from the water and goes into a tank, the sulfur water was then piped back into a disposal well (a dry well drilled to the exact same depth in the exact same formation the oil and water had come from.) But now that wasn't good enough.

Previously oil producers were allowed to have evaporation pools to rid themselves of the sulfur water, then this changed to disposal wells, then to costly deep injection wells. This wasn't to protect the environment, it was to remove small producers from the oil business. A few changes is all that's required for me to put those wells back into production.

Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes

Before going on, since you claim Reaganomics was a success, please now explain to me how stagflation was ultimately defeated, by whom, and who was appointed by whom. We then might discuss how the extreme measure affected political discourse. Further, specifically, what was the immediate outcome of the 1980s savings and loan deregulation, and then what happened? What has the long-term impact of supply side economics been, in terms of budget deficits?

As for management substance vs style, on the substance front we have 185 officials indicted under the Reagan administration, and the sale of weapons to Iran, diverting them from Nicaragua, in exchange for continuing to hold Americans hostage until after the election. Precursor and precedent, of course, for Trump's flirtation with yet another enemy to influence an election. There is a pattern here, and were I to adopt the GOP style manual, I'd be shouting something typically hyperbolic and nasty involving ropes.

I'll address the hilite portion. Yes Reagan did secretly sell weapons to Iran and send the money to the rebels in Nicaragua. But, you're accusing him of doing this as part of a deal with Iran to hold the hostages. That's wrong. Many Democrats made those charges and it was investigated. Not because there were any facts or any evidence to support those charges, but because the "seriousness of the charges warrant investigation" And guess what they found. Nothing. He did not do this. It was a made up story by the Democrats.....imagine that. Liars trying to soil a good man yet were proven to be the liars they were. And now you are repeating their lies in an attempt to rewrite history to better suit your views.

Reagan supported the rebels because it was the right thing to do. Socialism and Communism go hand in hand.
Chris B.

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Will Trump start manufacturing his 'Signature' Clothing line and home furnishing ranges in the USA?

I don't know? Perhaps Congress will pass legislation to make it more costly for him and people like him to bypass US workers?

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

One of my customers used to be a manufacturer near Manchester that makes all the 5th wheel couplings for HGV manufacturers in Europe, they supplied several.
They used to have a welding shop staffed by about twenty welders per shift. Now they employ one welder per shift in case any welds fail inspection and all the welding work is done by robots.

Well, that's bad but at least there is someone still working there. Now if the factory had been relocated overseas, every job would have left.

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Past employment and prosperity figures aren't opinions, they are a matter of fact.

Information within can be presented in such a way as to support any position.
The traditional methods of propaganda are alive and well I assure you. It is funny to read how the US is doing so well under Obama, yet at the same time reading labor participation is the lowest it had been since WW II. And while reading that millions more people are on food stamps and Government welfare programs........Of course the US is doing great! Right?.........Anything sound like it doesn't go together to you?
Chris B.

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin

*No. There is no mandate. Of course, the Republicans will proclaim they have one in their never-ending efforts to bludgeon debate much less dissent regarding their self-serving policies.

**No. A reasonably strong economic recovery (including a forceful rescue of the domestic auto industry as well as significant stock market gains), millions of citizens able to enjoy the benefits and security of health insurance, the advancement of marriage equality (while a state-level achievement, the administration supported and celebrated the gains, unlike countless in the GOP who desire to remove the liberty), deportations cooking along, the almost entirely peaceful resolution of the Ruby Ridge standoff, the negotiations leading to the nuclear agreement with Iran... These (simplified, of course), just off the top of my head.

***No. That's your opinion. Opinions may coincide with facts, but they are separate animals.

****Is this the current hand wave meme? A voter in California is no less a voter than one in any other location. (The Electoral College system's uneven valuation of votes is a related matter but separate of the point you're attempting to sneak past the judges.)

Donald Trump? The thoroughly ignorant, arrogant, immoral, self-serving, criminal conman/huckster who's already giving everyone a wide-eyed glimpse into "happenings?" That guy you expect will deliver you to the promised land? Yeah, good luck with that.

I realize the results of the election seem sour to you and many other Liberals. Yet, the election is over. Since it is over the Left will have to get used to having legislation shoved down its throat just as Obama did to the Right. Turn about being fair play. Nuclear options enacted by the Left still remain for the Right. Obama paved a highway around the Constitution and Trump can now travel smoothly upon it. Ain't it great. Chris B.

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

There are bound to be some very interesting things to be learnt about political polling in our current technological age, perhaps related to sampling. What is the lesson this lucrative industry has learnt? Something there for statisticians and students of the field I suspect. Is there something as interesting as the infamous 1936 polling failure, which has become a atudent case study in sampling failure.

I can tell you exactly what happened. They over sampled not only people but areas specifically to get a preconceived outcome, and so created a poll to influence the outcome of the election, or so they thought. If nothing else this election cycle has exposed just how deeply intertwined and sympathetic the US press is with Liberalism. Chris B.

[Sideroxylon]

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

I can tell you exactly what happened. They over sampled not only people but areas specifically to get a preconceived outcome, and so created a poll to influence the outcome of the election, or so they thought. If nothing else this election cycle has exposed just how deeply intertwined and sympathetic the US press is with Liberalism. Chris B.

Evidence of this conspiracy?

Conservative America has often been in conflict with mainstream thought full stop. Its why abominations like Conservapedia and home schooling exist.

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Originally Posted by uke2se

We're learning that you aren't interested in learning.

I learn something new every day. Sometimes I learn things that seem unpopular to those with preconceived positions. I used to be a Democrat once.

Originally Posted by uke2se

Didn't see Clinton mentioned in my post. Maybe you could point it out for me?

Also, it's 'poll', not 'pole'.

Perhaps I used Clinton to support my position not yours.

Thanks for the spelling check. You're right of course, sometimes I need to check that stuff prior to hitting "reply". Some I will catch some I won't, I'm not perfect like Trump. Perhaps I'm merely("unpresidented")

Chris B.

[Regnad Kcin]

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

I realize the results of the election seem sour to you and many other Liberals. Yet, the election is over. Since it is over the Left will have to get used to having legislation shoved down its throat just as Obama did to the Right. Turn about being fair play. Nuclear options enacted by the Left still remain for the Right. Obama paved a highway around the Constitution and Trump can now travel smoothly upon it. Ain't it great. Chris B.

Your balsa glider-weight flight of rhetoric does not respond to a single word of the post of mine you quoted. No surprise. Oh, and:

**Add opening up diplomatic relations with Cuba and killing Osama bin Laden to the list of Obama's failures.

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin

*No. There is no mandate. Of course, the Republicans will proclaim they have one in their never-ending efforts to bludgeon debate much less dissent regarding their self-serving policies.

**No. A reasonably strong economic recovery (including a forceful rescue of the domestic auto industry as well as significant stock market gains), millions of citizens able to enjoy the benefits and security of health insurance, the advancement of marriage equality (while a state-level achievement, the administration supported and celebrated the gains, unlike countless in the GOP who desire to remove the liberty), deportations cooking along, the almost entirely peaceful resolution of the Ruby Ridge standoff, the negotiations leading to the nuclear agreement with Iran... These (simplified, of course), just off the top of my head.

***No. That's your opinion. Opinions may coincide with facts, but they are separate animals.

****Is this the current hand wave meme? A voter in California is no less a voter than one in any other location. (The Electoral College system's uneven valuation of votes is a related matter but separate of the point you're attempting to sneak past the judges.)

Donald Trump? The thoroughly ignorant, arrogant, immoral, self-serving, criminal conman/huckster who's already giving everyone a wide-eyed glimpse into "happenings?" That guy you expect will deliver you to the promised land? Yeah, good luck with that.

1. This is something we'll never agree on. I see the destruction of the Democrat party and removal from power as a mandate to the Republicans. I mean really, the Democrats have not been this powerless since the reconstruction period. I'll never understand how it could be viewed any other way.

2. Another example of our disagreement. You see that Obama has created a wonderful US economy, yet seemingly ignoring the fact, the fact that the US has the lowest participation in the work force it has ever had. People kinda need jobs......they make paying for stuff possible.
More people are on Government assistance than at anytime before. Obama spent more money than any President before him. Someone has to pay that back you know. I'm sure you consider running the Country on a credit card a perfectly reasonable solution, but reality comes knocking sooner or later. Who was the last President to balance the budget? Bill Clinton. That's great but he was a lame duck with a Republican house and Senate.......
I don't think Obama even knows what a budget is. Just kept pushing his agenda thru Congress and if they bawked by trying to use the power of the purse, charge the Republicans with shutting down the Government. Beautiful plan and it worked. Almost 20 trillion........Wow what a number.

3. If Obama's policies were so great and Clinton was going to continue them, why was she rejected? Opinion based on the circumstances of the election outcome is a pretty solid thing.

4. A voter in CA has just as much power as anyone else. Unfortunately, there are only a limited number of Electoral votes to be distributed. The answer? Move some of those blue bloods into red states. Since one or two states cannot control the direction of the Country, you'll need to spread out to other states and turn them blue too until you have the majority or at least 270 Electoral votes.

5. I fully expect Trump to deliver. Of course this is a matter of opinion. If he doesn't, he will not receive my vote next time. I, like many others are tired of sending politicians to Washington who promise change yet never deliver. If Trump doesn't deliver, he's gone. Easy peasy.

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin

Your balsa glider-weight flight of rhetoric does not respond to a single word of the post of mine you quoted. No surprise. Oh, and:

**Add opening up diplomatic relations with Cuba and killing Osama bin Laden to the list of Obama's failures.

OK, though likely a waste of time as we can never agree, I have a lot of time to waste now so I'll address your post above for fun.

I'll give Obama credit that bin Laden was killed during his Admin. I would not brag about opening up relations with Cuba though. The US generally expects Countries we associate with the have some sort of Human rights policies in place......With the Cuban example we should go ahead and have some good relations with North Korea too I suppose........Yeah not so much.
Chris B.

[uke2se]

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

I learn something new every day. Sometimes I learn things that seem unpopular to those with preconceived positions. I used to be a Democrat once.

"I used to be an evolutionist".

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

Perhaps I used Clinton to support my position not yours.

Then you shouldn't have quoted me.

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Originally Posted by uke2se

"I used to be an evolutionist".




Then you shouldn't have quoted me.

Oh come on. If I didn't quote your previous post, you'd be bored now.
Chris B.

[uke2se]

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

Oh come on. If I didn't quote your previous post, you'd be bored now.
Chris B.

I'm bored anyway. Nothing you can say or do would change that.

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Evidence of this conspiracy?

Conservative America has often been in conflict with mainstream thought full stop. Its why abominations like Conservapedia and home schooling exist.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-1...gh-oversamples

John Podesta's email outlining how and where.

"I also want to get your Atlas folks to recommend oversamples for our polling before we start in February. By market, regions, etc. I want to get this all compiled into one set of recommendations so we can maximize what we get out of our media polling."





There is no conflict with mainstream thought.
The only conflict between mainstream media is when it fudges on the truth.
I wouldn't see any threat from a website that serves Conservatives with Christian media. MSNBC doesn't have a particular audience in mind? Of course they do, just as Fox plays to Conservatives there are other outlets that serve Liberals.

Obama just spoke a few hours ago about getting out of the bubble. People should stop only watching what they agree with and want to believe in order to do a little fact checking to see what they're being sold.

Chris B.

[Sideroxylon]

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-1...gh-oversamples

John Podesta's email outlining how and where.

"I also want to get your Atlas folks to recommend oversamples for our polling before we start in February. By market, regions, etc. I want to get this all compiled into one set of recommendations so we can maximize what we get out of our media polling."





There is no conflict with mainstream thought.
The only conflict between mainstream media is when it fudges on the truth.
I wouldn't see any threat from a website that serves Conservatives with Christian media. MSNBC doesn't have a particular audience in mind? Of course they do, just as Fox plays to Conservatives there are other outlets that serve Liberals.

Obama just spoke a few hours ago about getting out of the bubble. People should stop only watching what they agree with and want to believe in order to do a little fact checking to see what they're being sold.

Chris B.

Conservapedia itself is no threat. It is a shameful example of how America has given up on the hard work of finding truth, even the kind defined by the pragmatic standards of American philosophy. The egalitarian notions of truth where everyman is equal to the consensus of experts, no matter how erudite the field. The idea of equal time in reporting, no matter how poorly based one side may be. This is the culmination of a long war on learning and science by evolution and old earth deniers and their ******** arguments and circus of experts. Look at the ridiculous trash that gets served up on American documentary channlels.

Its all the antithesis of the scientific enquiry approach that this board in its original incarnation was based on. Trump is making America a joke.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-1...gh-oversamples

Chris B.

Zerohedge as as source ? C'mon

Why not just have WorldNewsDaily and be done with it...

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes

"A stranger showed up in town. The next day, a girl was raped. We killed the stranger." I hope this is not your logic. There are reasons for how the economy behaved which may have been thanks to, in spite of, or irrespective of Reagan.

Except that in the case of Kentucky and actual figures (as opposed to ChrisBFRPKY's memories of his perception at the time), unemployment soared before coming back to its original level and real wages fell......

So it's more like "A stranger showed up in town. The next day, no-one was raped. We killed the stranger because we thought that someone had been raped."

[Garrison]

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

3. If Obama's policies were so great and Clinton was going to continue them, why was she rejected? Opinion based on the circumstances of the election outcome is a pretty solid thing.

Chris B.

She wasn't, she got more votes than Trump. Trump is simply the beneficiary of the vagaries of the US Electoral College. Yes he's the president, but please don't pretend he has some massive mandate from the voters.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Exactly.
Look at a modern car production line and compare it with one from just twenty years ago, there's hardly anyone in sight.

Just look at the automotive factory parking lots. I have seen ones that are covered in solar panels and still have huge open parking spaces in the remaining lots.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

If you ever watch the show "How It's Made" it is often surprising when there is something that actually requires a lot of hands-on work. A huge chunk of the time the only people involved are the ones who dump in the ingredients. Some times, there is the point where the worker has to connect the two pieces together and tighten.

I have to admit, when I see that, all I can think is, I'm glad there are other people to do those jobs because it looks mind-numbingly boring to me. If I had that job, I'd be constantly trying to come up ways to automate so I didn't have to do it.

A lot of the factories on how it's made are not even remotely modern. I remember one on all the hand labor involved in making monochrome CRT screens.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

That is interesting, especially since the only known 2 factories are overseas. One in Japan and the other in the Netherlands.....

It's just not possible with most automotive and support industries. There are too many processes that still require humans.
Chris B.

Nope. Leaving automated machines running overnight is not at all uncommon in many industries. They are not lights out plants because people are there during the day but at night they are running lights out.

So not an entire factory but many processes

[Cabbage]

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-1...gh-oversamples

John Podesta's email outlining how and where.

"I also want to get your Atlas folks to recommend oversamples for our polling before we start in February. By market, regions, etc. I want to get this all compiled into one set of recommendations so we can maximize what we get out of our media polling."





There is no conflict with mainstream thought.
The only conflict between mainstream media is when it fudges on the truth.
I wouldn't see any threat from a website that serves Conservatives with Christian media. MSNBC doesn't have a particular audience in mind? Of course they do, just as Fox plays to Conservatives there are other outlets that serve Liberals.

Obama just spoke a few hours ago about getting out of the bubble. People should stop only watching what they agree with and want to believe in order to do a little fact checking to see what they're being sold.

Chris B.

Are you simply not familiar with the term "oversampling"?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oversampling

Edited to Add: Sorry, I screwed up and put the wrong link. Here's the correct link:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...-poll-results/

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

Since the signing of NAFTA the US has lost about 70,000 factories that were moved to overseas and Mexico locations. Automation had nothing to do with it.

How did NAFTA make it better or worse to move to china?

[The Don]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

How did NAFTA make it better or worse to move to china?

I suspect that NAFTA has become the focus for all disenchantment whether or not it actually had anything to do with the NAFTA agreement.

If your manufacturing job has gone or is less well paid that you think it was 20, 30, 40 years ago then blame NAFTA.

If you lose your job in the car plant, it's not because they're producing the same number of cars with a third of the workforce it's because of NAFTA.

If you lost your job in the VHS player assembly plant, it's not because no-one wants to buy one, it's because of NAFTA.

If your wages have fallen in real terms and your job security and working conditions are bad, it's not because you allowed yourself to be de-unionised and then your employer took advantage of a naive and splintered workforce to drive through cuts to increase their profits, it's because of NAFTA.

[pgwenthold]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

A lot of the factories on how it's made are not even remotely modern. I remember one on all the hand labor involved in making monochrome CRT screens.

And a lot of the factories are relatively small, and therefore don't have the capital to automate like they do in larger factories. It would be the difference between designer monochrome CRT screens and the cheap ones you used to buy at WalMart.

Yeah, it takes more manpower to make designer skateboards. But most skateboards aren't made like that, and they don't require near as much manpower.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

You are taking a very literalist reading of what I wrote.

No, I think you're the one who took a very literalist view when you argued that countries cannot be fine because they're not people.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by elemental

I don't understand trump's plan. Don't raise the minimum wage, bring all jobs back to America, get rid of regulations, and the middle class in middle America comes out ahead?

Of course you don't understand: there is no plan.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

How many of those Clinton poles will it take for you to question something? Are we learning yet?
Chris B.

*Polls and historical data aren't the same thing.

[Spindrift]

Originally Posted by Argumemnon

*Polls and historical data aren't the same thing.

In an age where facts and opinions are the same thing, you might be wrong.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by Spindrift

In an age where facts and opinions are the same thing, you might be wrong.

I stand corrected. I knew the post-fact world was fully in force when I saw that unicorn fly in front of my gingerbread house during a double eclipse of the sun AND moon.

[quadraginta]

Originally Posted by Argumemnon

I stand corrected. I knew the post-fact world was fully in force when I saw that unicorn fly in front of my gingerbread house during a double eclipse of the sun AND moon.

That was just the alien lizard peoples' giant mother ship.
Pay it no mind.

[Hlafordlaes]

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

It is true that most of the local factories here are in support of the automotive industry. I've been inside many of our factories in KY. Some as an employee but most as a visitor. I've seen automation yes but it's not anything that would replace the hundreds/thousands of workers employed at most facilities. In response I'd have to bring up Detroit as an example. "Motor City" has been gutted by the exit of the automotive industry there. Automation was not a key factor. The factories simply left for lower wages outside the US. However, the support factories here and the factories in Detroit were doing fairly well during the Reagan years. You see, even though automation may replace certain workers during a process, relocation of the company replaces them all.

This still overlooks the issue that, relocated or not, those factories are heavily roboticized, vastly more than in the 1980s.

Quote:

I do agree that IT has been the new cash cow for the US beginning sometime around the era that everyone began using home computers. But even that has been outsourced just as the auto industry jobs of old. So even though the IT sector may appear to be strong on Wall Street now, with more outsourcing happening every day, it will quickly follow the automobile in production outside the US. So with the current view of the US as merely the end consumer, IT jobs will still be plentiful, just not within the US as far as the manufacturing is concerned. Support work, sure, that'll remain. Just like auto mechanics. As no matter where it's made, somebody has to fix it when it breaks.

Much of circuit board manufacture and final assembly of electronic goods is now automated. This is IT eating the manual labor it created initially, but it is also moving way out, into places such as X-Ray interpretation, and legal research; that is, knowledge work. Automation has a significant impact on the accelerating shift of returns to capital, and can be seen in income disparity as a natural result. It's how these numbers work.

Quote:

The Green jobs plan was a failure. And while the US is fully capable of leading the World in Green tech and production the reality is we cannot compete with a closed system such as China. You see, when you don't allow your currency to be traded outside the Country you have a great deal of control over its value as compared with other World currencies. You are able to make the value of it less when compared to other currencies, but since you have a closed system, internally your currency still has its normal value for purchasing power. China has been doing this for years. Though the trend seems to be slowing now and China seems to be raising their currency in baby steps (guess why) the damage has already been done. It's a very clever business strategy and has worked much the same as Walmart's. Move into a market, lower prices below competitor's, bankrupt competitors, raise prices. The only difference is China has done this with the World market by lowering the value of their currency. Now with mission complete they can raise their currency value to appear as though they've been playing fairly all along. Of course our negotiators on trade deals have been too stupid to recognize this very simple yet effective strategy.

This is a mix of stuff. For the moment, I agree China has not been a good-faith player. In this area alone, Trump does have the advantage over a Democrat who, even or especially if a Sanders type, would be hounded and hung for going after the source of income for many wealthy players who depend on getting their goods cheaply in China (they are legion).

Quote:

US energy production could very well open up. Even though Obama has been working frantically to tie up future energy production for some reason before leaving office. EPA regulations that limit production and make it more costly to produce oil could very well be lifted.

In isolation (all things being equal), this is true. But there is the issue of CO2.

Quote:

I have a great example for you.

Understood. It is perfectly normal to be pissed at the personal impact of any measure. But, CO2 is more important than me or you.

Quote:

I'll address the hilite portion. Yes Reagan did secretly sell weapons to Iran and send the money to the rebels in Nicaragua. But, you're accusing him of doing this as part of a deal with Iran to hold the hostages. That's wrong. Many Democrats made those charges and it was investigated. Not because there were any facts or any evidence to support those charges, but because the "seriousness of the charges warrant investigation" And guess what they found. Nothing. He did not do this. It was a made up story by the Democrats.....imagine that. Liars trying to soil a good man yet were proven to be the liars they were. And now you are repeating their lies in an attempt to rewrite history to better suit your views.

There was a piquant bittersweet feel to the announcement of their release on the day or just thereafter of Reagan taking office. I do not believe in coincidences in geopolitics.

Quote:

Reagan supported the rebels because it was the right thing to do. Socialism and Communism go hand in hand.Chris B.

Not really. Socialism predates Communism, and has major, significant differences. In current form, it usually takes the form of recognizing there is a legitimate place for public goods, such as roads, transport, or some forms of insurance. These are no more "red" than say, pooling community resources for protection (police, fire dept.) and defense (military).

Communism preaches the dictatorship of the proletariat, considers itself an absolute (historically inevitable), has a known track record as one would expect of any system highly concentrating power, and is a lousy load of crap. Not so Marx's descriptive analyses, but prescriptively, dangerous and utopic.

***
Thank you for your considered response. We may disagree, but I enjoyed reading something that was clearly your own thinking, and a fair statement.

[Mader Levap]

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

Not long ago there were graphs available that showed how much Hillary was going to win by...

Comparing poll about uncertain future filled by unreliable people to statistic about unchangeable past based on known values (state of economy, who produced what, how much % was employed etc) - historical data - is pretty silly.

You are just in denial.

[BobTheCoward]

Originally Posted by Argumemnon

No, I think you're the one who took a very literalist view when you argued that countries cannot be fine because they're not people.

Fair enough.

I get get the notion that people are trying to convey. They are wrong, they are tying together individuals in an identity, and trying to argue that there is a collective benefit or loss when individuals have no right to another individual's purchase decisions.

[BobTheCoward]

Is this where we talk about Booker's testimony today was completely stupid?

[turingtest]

Originally Posted by Garrison

She wasn't, she got more votes than Trump. Trump is simply the beneficiary of the vagaries of the US Electoral College. Yes he's the president, but please don't pretend he has some massive mandate from the voters.

"Because California" seems to have become the standard meme response (as Regnad Kcin said) to this- which makes no sense at all (or, at best, a childish sense only). The popular vote is an aggregate vote of an entire body of people- by its nature, it's not broken down into states. That's what the Electoral College is for, so the complaint seems to be that the popular vote didn't reflect the EC vote, instead of the other way around.*

So...ok. Trump won the EC, and, in our system, that makes him our President. No dispute there, and I guess we'll just make the best of it, hope for the best from it. But there's also no dispute that Clinton beat Trump, by a pretty comfortable margin of those who voted, in the popular vote. To claim a popular mandate for someone who lost the popular vote just defies reality.

*The whole "because California" thing reminds me of a kid who lost the election for president of his 7th grade History Club and says "well, that's just because the winner got more votes from the kids on that side of the room!" (Yes, this actually happened to me, and I'm still not over it Boy, if we'd have had an EC for that vote, I would have shown that bunch of slobby California elites!)

[The Don]

Originally Posted by turingtest

So...ok. Trump won the EC, and, in our system, that makes him our President. No dispute there, and I guess we'll just make the best of it, hope for the best from it. But there's also no dispute that Clinton beat Trump, by a pretty comfortable margin of those who voted, in the popular vote. To claim a popular mandate for someone who lost the popular vote just defies reality.

Not only that but because of the turnout, neither candidate got close to 30% of the electorate......

Neither candidate could claim a popular vote mandate but Trump's claim is even weaker than Hillary's would have been.

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Originally Posted by Mader Levap

Comparing poll about uncertain future filled by unreliable people to statistic about unchangeable past based on known values (state of economy, who produced what, how much % was employed etc) - historical data - is pretty silly.

You are just in denial.

Not at all. I simply maintain reports are created and have a certain political spin on them depending who compiles the data.

Data is a fun thing. We could have an unemployment number fall to 0% while not creating a single job. All that's required is the current percentage of unemployed workers simply give up participating in work force / job searches.

A good deal of people could be further inclined to stop looking for a job if you give them free food, free lodging, a free phone, and other government provided financial aid........

Chris B.

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Conservapedia itself is no threat. It is a shameful example of how America has given up on the hard work of finding truth, even the kind defined by the pragmatic standards of American philosophy. The egalitarian notions of truth where everyman is equal to the consensus of experts, no matter how erudite the field. The idea of equal time in reporting, no matter how poorly based one side may be. This is the culmination of a long war on learning and science by evolution and old earth deniers and their ******** arguments and circus of experts. Look at the ridiculous trash that gets served up on American documentary channlels.

Its all the antithesis of the scientific enquiry approach that this board in its original incarnation was based on. Trump is making America a joke.

You make an excellent point. The media has changed over the past 15 years or so. It used to be fair and neutral reporting for all sides. Now, it has become a play for a particular side. If you're Liberal, you watch CNN, or if hard Left then it's MSNBC. Conservatives tune into Fox.

Finding correct and neutral reporting has become a task. No longer can one simply tune into the news to find out what's happening in the World, you have to research what they say,and then fact check! I swear, just watching the news can be an exhausting process anymore.

And that goes for all of it. Responsible, neutral and factual reporting has died.

Chris B.

[The Great Zaganza]

CHris, you obviously don't know what an oversampled poll is and why everyone is doing them.