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#241 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,208
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The poster formerly known as Redtail |
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#242 |
Becoming Beth
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 20,956
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And they aren't going to. In the last half of the 20th century coal production per man-hour increased around fivefold, both in underground and surface mining. That's what automation did. Jobs for people were not filled by more people as that production per man-hour increased. They were mining as much coal as they could sell. Those jobs aren't coming back. In a sort of irony, in the last ten years production per man-hour has declined a bit. This is probably because there is a minimum infrastructure of employees need to maintain a certain output even though sales are declining due to the availability of cheaper energy sources. Not because they were hiring more people. A lot of that competition comes from other fossil fuels which conservatives have been busily boosting. Shale oil, fracking, etc. All having extraction technology which requires even less people for an equivalent energy harvest. A little more irony there.
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The only ones with any doubts are the ones wearing their Trump supplied blindfolds. |
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"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it." ![]() *********************************************** "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." - Saul Bellow |
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#243 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,591
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It is true that most of the local factories here are in support of the automotive industry. I've been inside many of our factories in KY. Some as an employee but most as a visitor. I've seen automation yes but it's not anything that would replace the hundreds/thousands of workers employed at most facilities. In response I'd have to bring up Detroit as an example. "Motor City" has been gutted by the exit of the automotive industry there. Automation was not a key factor. The factories simply left for lower wages outside the US. However, the support factories here and the factories in Detroit were doing fairly well during the Reagan years. You see, even though automation may replace certain workers during a process, relocation of the company replaces them all.
I do agree that IT has been the new cash cow for the US beginning sometime around the era that everyone began using home computers. But even that has been outsourced just as the auto industry jobs of old. So even though the IT sector may appear to be strong on Wall Street now, with more outsourcing happening every day, it will quickly follow the automobile in production outside the US. So with the current view of the US as merely the end consumer, IT jobs will still be plentiful, just not within the US as far as the manufacturing is concerned. Support work, sure, that'll remain. Just like auto mechanics. As no matter where it's made, somebody has to fix it when it breaks. The Green jobs plan was a failure. And while the US is fully capable of leading the World in Green tech and production the reality is we cannot compete with a closed system such as China. You see, when you don't allow your currency to be traded outside the Country you have a great deal of control over its value as compared with other World currencies. You are able to make the value of it less when compared to other currencies, but since you have a closed system, internally your currency still has its normal value for purchasing power. China has been doing this for years. Though the trend seems to be slowing now and China seems to be raising their currency in baby steps (guess why) the damage has already been done. It's a very clever business strategy and has worked much the same as Walmart's. Move into a market, lower prices below competitor's, bankrupt competitors, raise prices. The only difference is China has done this with the World market by lowering the value of their currency. Now with mission complete they can raise their currency value to appear as though they've been playing fairly all along. Of course our negotiators on trade deals have been too stupid to recognize this very simple yet effective strategy. US energy production could very well open up. Even though Obama has been working frantically to tie up future energy production for some reason before leaving office. EPA regulations that limit production and make it more costly to produce oil could very well be lifted. I have a great example for you. I have property and other oil leases in LeGrande KY. It was a major oil production pool in the 1930's. Many wells came in flowing 300 to 500 barrels per day back when they were first drilled then were plugged when they went down to 6 barrels a day production. During the early 90's, I purchased an old cable tool drilling rig, restored it and began opening up some of those old wells. 6 barrels of oil a day wasn't profitable in the 1930's, but at $50+ a barrel in the 90's, these old wells were money makers. So I was doing fairly good until.......the EPA put a stop to it. You see, I had been producing my wells legally without problem then came some new regulations requiring me to drop about $50K on a new deep injection well for my sulfur water. You see, oil from that formation is pumped to the surface mixed with sulfur water, the oil is separated from the water and goes into a tank, the sulfur water was then piped back into a disposal well (a dry well drilled to the exact same depth in the exact same formation the oil and water had come from.) But now that wasn't good enough. Previously oil producers were allowed to have evaporation pools to rid themselves of the sulfur water, then this changed to disposal wells, then to costly deep injection wells. This wasn't to protect the environment, it was to remove small producers from the oil business. A few changes is all that's required for me to put those wells back into production. I'll address the hilite portion. Yes Reagan did secretly sell weapons to Iran and send the money to the rebels in Nicaragua. But, you're accusing him of doing this as part of a deal with Iran to hold the hostages. That's wrong. Many Democrats made those charges and it was investigated. Not because there were any facts or any evidence to support those charges, but because the "seriousness of the charges warrant investigation" And guess what they found. Nothing. He did not do this. It was a made up story by the Democrats.....imagine that. Liars trying to soil a good man yet were proven to be the liars they were. And now you are repeating their lies in an attempt to rewrite history to better suit your views. Reagan supported the rebels because it was the right thing to do. Socialism and Communism go hand in hand. Chris B. |
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One could choose to be civil though and still disagree. For example, since I know Bigfoot does exist, I don't call others "idiot" just because they're uneducated on the subject and share a different view based on that lack of experience. Chris B. |
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#244 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,591
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I don't know? Perhaps Congress will pass legislation to make it more costly for him and people like him to bypass US workers?
Well, that's bad but at least there is someone still working there. Now if the factory had been relocated overseas, every job would have left. Information within can be presented in such a way as to support any position. The traditional methods of propaganda are alive and well I assure you. It is funny to read how the US is doing so well under Obama, yet at the same time reading labor participation is the lowest it had been since WW II. And while reading that millions more people are on food stamps and Government welfare programs........Of course the US is doing great! Right?.........Anything sound like it doesn't go together to you? Chris B. |
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One could choose to be civil though and still disagree. For example, since I know Bigfoot does exist, I don't call others "idiot" just because they're uneducated on the subject and share a different view based on that lack of experience. Chris B. |
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#245 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,591
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I realize the results of the election seem sour to you and many other Liberals. Yet, the election is over. Since it is over the Left will have to get used to having legislation shoved down its throat just as Obama did to the Right. Turn about being fair play. Nuclear options enacted by the Left still remain for the Right. Obama paved a highway around the Constitution and Trump can now travel smoothly upon it. Ain't it great.
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One could choose to be civil though and still disagree. For example, since I know Bigfoot does exist, I don't call others "idiot" just because they're uneducated on the subject and share a different view based on that lack of experience. Chris B. |
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#246 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,591
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I can tell you exactly what happened. They over sampled not only people but areas specifically to get a preconceived outcome, and so created a poll to influence the outcome of the election, or so they thought. If nothing else this election cycle has exposed just how deeply intertwined and sympathetic the US press is with Liberalism. Chris B.
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One could choose to be civil though and still disagree. For example, since I know Bigfoot does exist, I don't call others "idiot" just because they're uneducated on the subject and share a different view based on that lack of experience. Chris B. |
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#247 |
Featherless biped
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 18,640
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'The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.' - Richard Feynman |
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#248 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,591
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I learn something new every day. Sometimes I learn things that seem unpopular to those with preconceived positions. I used to be a Democrat once.
Perhaps I used Clinton to support my position not yours. Thanks for the spelling check. You're right of course, sometimes I need to check that stuff prior to hitting "reply". Some I will catch some I won't, I'm not perfect like Trump. Perhaps I'm merely("unpresidented") ![]() Chris B. |
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One could choose to be civil though and still disagree. For example, since I know Bigfoot does exist, I don't call others "idiot" just because they're uneducated on the subject and share a different view based on that lack of experience. Chris B. |
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#249 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 8,678
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My heros are Alex Zanardi and Evelyn Glennie. |
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#250 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,591
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1. This is something we'll never agree on. I see the destruction of the Democrat party and removal from power as a mandate to the Republicans. I mean really, the Democrats have not been this powerless since the reconstruction period. I'll never understand how it could be viewed any other way.
2. Another example of our disagreement. You see that Obama has created a wonderful US economy, yet seemingly ignoring the fact, the fact that the US has the lowest participation in the work force it has ever had. People kinda need jobs......they make paying for stuff possible. More people are on Government assistance than at anytime before. Obama spent more money than any President before him. Someone has to pay that back you know. I'm sure you consider running the Country on a credit card a perfectly reasonable solution, but reality comes knocking sooner or later. Who was the last President to balance the budget? Bill Clinton. That's great but he was a lame duck with a Republican house and Senate....... I don't think Obama even knows what a budget is. Just kept pushing his agenda thru Congress and if they bawked by trying to use the power of the purse, charge the Republicans with shutting down the Government. Beautiful plan and it worked. Almost 20 trillion........Wow what a number. 3. If Obama's policies were so great and Clinton was going to continue them, why was she rejected? Opinion based on the circumstances of the election outcome is a pretty solid thing. 4. A voter in CA has just as much power as anyone else. Unfortunately, there are only a limited number of Electoral votes to be distributed. The answer? Move some of those blue bloods into red states. Since one or two states cannot control the direction of the Country, you'll need to spread out to other states and turn them blue too until you have the majority or at least 270 Electoral votes. 5. I fully expect Trump to deliver. Of course this is a matter of opinion. If he doesn't, he will not receive my vote next time. I, like many others are tired of sending politicians to Washington who promise change yet never deliver. If Trump doesn't deliver, he's gone. Easy peasy. OK, though likely a waste of time as we can never agree, I have a lot of time to waste now so I'll address your post above for fun. I'll give Obama credit that bin Laden was killed during his Admin. I would not brag about opening up relations with Cuba though. The US generally expects Countries we associate with the have some sort of Human rights policies in place......With the Cuban example we should go ahead and have some good relations with North Korea too I suppose........Yeah not so much. Chris B. |
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One could choose to be civil though and still disagree. For example, since I know Bigfoot does exist, I don't call others "idiot" just because they're uneducated on the subject and share a different view based on that lack of experience. Chris B. |
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#251 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 11,431
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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#252 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,591
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One could choose to be civil though and still disagree. For example, since I know Bigfoot does exist, I don't call others "idiot" just because they're uneducated on the subject and share a different view based on that lack of experience. Chris B. |
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#253 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 11,431
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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#254 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,591
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http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-1...gh-oversamples
John Podesta's email outlining how and where. "I also want to get your Atlas folks to recommend oversamples for our polling before we start in February. By market, regions, etc. I want to get this all compiled into one set of recommendations so we can maximize what we get out of our media polling." There is no conflict with mainstream thought. The only conflict between mainstream media is when it fudges on the truth. I wouldn't see any threat from a website that serves Conservatives with Christian media. MSNBC doesn't have a particular audience in mind? Of course they do, just as Fox plays to Conservatives there are other outlets that serve Liberals. Obama just spoke a few hours ago about getting out of the bubble. People should stop only watching what they agree with and want to believe in order to do a little fact checking to see what they're being sold. Chris B. |
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One could choose to be civil though and still disagree. For example, since I know Bigfoot does exist, I don't call others "idiot" just because they're uneducated on the subject and share a different view based on that lack of experience. Chris B. |
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#255 |
Featherless biped
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 18,640
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Conservapedia itself is no threat. It is a shameful example of how America has given up on the hard work of finding truth, even the kind defined by the pragmatic standards of American philosophy. The egalitarian notions of truth where everyman is equal to the consensus of experts, no matter how erudite the field. The idea of equal time in reporting, no matter how poorly based one side may be. This is the culmination of a long war on learning and science by evolution and old earth deniers and their ******** arguments and circus of experts. Look at the ridiculous trash that gets served up on American documentary channlels.
Its all the antithesis of the scientific enquiry approach that this board in its original incarnation was based on. Trump is making America a joke. |
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'The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.' - Richard Feynman |
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#256 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 24,177
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#257 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 24,177
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Except that in the case of Kentucky and actual figures (as opposed to ChrisBFRPKY's memories of his perception at the time), unemployment soared before coming back to its original level and real wages fell......
So it's more like "A stranger showed up in town. The next day, no-one was raped. We killed the stranger because we thought that someone had been raped." ![]() |
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#258 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,070
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So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/ And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX |
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#259 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 42,322
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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#260 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 42,322
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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#261 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 42,322
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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#262 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 273
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Are you simply not familiar with the term "oversampling"?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oversampling Edited to Add: Sorry, I screwed up and put the wrong link. Here's the correct link: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...-poll-results/ |
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#263 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 42,322
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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#264 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 24,177
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I suspect that NAFTA has become the focus for all disenchantment whether or not it actually had anything to do with the NAFTA agreement.
If your manufacturing job has gone or is less well paid that you think it was 20, 30, 40 years ago then blame NAFTA. If you lose your job in the car plant, it's not because they're producing the same number of cars with a third of the workforce it's because of NAFTA. If you lost your job in the VHS player assembly plant, it's not because no-one wants to buy one, it's because of NAFTA. If your wages have fallen in real terms and your job security and working conditions are bad, it's not because you allowed yourself to be de-unionised and then your employer took advantage of a naive and splintered workforce to drive through cuts to increase their profits, it's because of NAFTA. |
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#265 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 16,905
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And a lot of the factories are relatively small, and therefore don't have the capital to automate like they do in larger factories. It would be the difference between designer monochrome CRT screens and the cheap ones you used to buy at WalMart.
Yeah, it takes more manpower to make designer skateboards. But most skateboards aren't made like that, and they don't require near as much manpower. |
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I have a permanent room at the Home for the Chronically Groovy - Floyd from the Muppets |
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#266 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
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Master of the Shining Darkness ![]() ![]() |
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#267 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
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Master of the Shining Darkness ![]() ![]() |
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#268 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
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Master of the Shining Darkness ![]() ![]() |
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#269 |
Time Person of the Year, 2006
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Right here!
Posts: 19,246
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I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black. Enjoy every sandwich. - Warren Zevon |
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#270 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
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Master of the Shining Darkness ![]() ![]() |
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#271 |
Becoming Beth
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 20,956
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__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it." ![]() *********************************************** "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." - Saul Bellow |
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#272 |
Disorder of Kilopi
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 7,053
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This still overlooks the issue that, relocated or not, those factories are heavily roboticized, vastly more than in the 1980s.
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Communism preaches the dictatorship of the proletariat, considers itself an absolute (historically inevitable), has a known track record as one would expect of any system highly concentrating power, and is a lousy load of crap. Not so Marx's descriptive analyses, but prescriptively, dangerous and utopic. *** Thank you for your considered response. We may disagree, but I enjoyed reading something that was clearly your own thinking, and a fair statement. |
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#273 |
Muse
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 561
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Sanity is overrated. |
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#274 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 12,436
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Fair enough.
I get get the notion that people are trying to convey. They are wrong, they are tying together individuals in an identity, and trying to argue that there is a collective benefit or loss when individuals have no right to another individual's purchase decisions. |
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#275 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 12,436
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Is this where we talk about Booker's testimony today was completely stupid?
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#276 |
Mistral, mistral wind...
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,705
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"Because California" seems to have become the standard meme response (as Regnad Kcin said) to this- which makes no sense at all (or, at best, a childish sense only). The popular vote is an aggregate vote of an entire body of people- by its nature, it's not broken down into states. That's what the Electoral College is for, so the complaint seems to be that the popular vote didn't reflect the EC vote, instead of the other way around.*
So...ok. Trump won the EC, and, in our system, that makes him our President. No dispute there, and I guess we'll just make the best of it, hope for the best from it. But there's also no dispute that Clinton beat Trump, by a pretty comfortable margin of those who voted, in the popular vote. To claim a popular mandate for someone who lost the popular vote just defies reality. *The whole "because California" thing reminds me of a kid who lost the election for president of his 7th grade History Club and says "well, that's just because the winner got more votes from the kids on that side of the room!" (Yes, this actually happened to me, and I'm still not over it ![]() |
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I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV; I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems Deep Purple- "The Aviator" Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King |
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#277 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 24,177
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#278 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,591
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Not at all. I simply maintain reports are created and have a certain political spin on them depending who compiles the data.
Data is a fun thing. We could have an unemployment number fall to 0% while not creating a single job. All that's required is the current percentage of unemployed workers simply give up participating in work force / job searches. A good deal of people could be further inclined to stop looking for a job if you give them free food, free lodging, a free phone, and other government provided financial aid........ Chris B. |
__________________
One could choose to be civil though and still disagree. For example, since I know Bigfoot does exist, I don't call others "idiot" just because they're uneducated on the subject and share a different view based on that lack of experience. Chris B. |
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#279 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,591
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You make an excellent point. The media has changed over the past 15 years or so. It used to be fair and neutral reporting for all sides. Now, it has become a play for a particular side. If you're Liberal, you watch CNN, or if hard Left then it's MSNBC. Conservatives tune into Fox.
Finding correct and neutral reporting has become a task. No longer can one simply tune into the news to find out what's happening in the World, you have to research what they say,and then fact check! I swear, just watching the news can be an exhausting process anymore. And that goes for all of it. Responsible, neutral and factual reporting has died. Chris B. |
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One could choose to be civil though and still disagree. For example, since I know Bigfoot does exist, I don't call others "idiot" just because they're uneducated on the subject and share a different view based on that lack of experience. Chris B. |
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#280 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 3,735
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CHris, you obviously don't know what an oversampled poll is and why everyone is doing them.
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"When someone asks you if you're a god, you say "YES"!" |
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