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Old 25th December 2016, 09:30 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
I find that seriously hard to believe, do you have any sort of a citation to back up that assertion?
Not just any citation. I want to see a scientific study.

The notion that Trump might assault women at the inauguration it a bit far-fetched. What's not at all far-fetched though is the notion that women might find any association with Trump objectionable, and not for political reasons per se.
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Old 25th December 2016, 09:56 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
No, I don't deny that it happened. No, I don't deny that Trump is more powerful today than then.

The part I'm having trouble with is that those two things add up to cancelling a performance. I think it's political. Which is fine. I could see where people might not want to attend a Bill Cosby show using the same kind of protest logic. But the bit about increased risk of sexual assault is silly.
"Political?" They're being asked to participate in a celebration of his election -- his coronation as King of America -- by performing to entertain His Highness. They're being asked to normalize the fact that our new President is a misogynistic turd who has not only assaulted women but bragged about it as proof that he is an entitled "star," and who now threatens to sue his victims for talking about it -- and you're calling it "political" since he probably won't assault them at this event, or at least they can take steps to prevent it? It's okay because the worst he will do is rate them on a scale of 1 to 10, depending largely on their breast sizes?

Empathy isn't your thing, is it?
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Old 25th December 2016, 10:22 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
And I'm supposed to connect those dots to come up with: "...requiring women to willingly place themselves at risk of sexual assault" ?

...snip...
Well I was assuming that they would meet Trump of course if they aren't going to meet him than I agree we have no reason to be concerned about him sexually assaulting the women. If they are meeting him then I have what I think is quite a common reaction to the idea of letting a person who sexually assaults a certain group be with people in that group.

But I will admit I don't have any actual data that for example a kid meeting a known peadophile is in more danger of sexual assualt than one meeting a non-peadophile. But since we know that Trump - thanks to what he has said and the testimony of some of those he has assaulted - has repeatedly sexually assaulted women so it follows that it is more likely they will be at a risk of sexual assault if they are meeting him rather than meeting someone who doesn't sexually assault women.
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Old 25th December 2016, 10:27 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
I feel like I need to lay out the story problem for my own satisfaction.

The idea is that a newly elected president, at his own inauguration, is going to sneak backstage to catch women changing for the show. And further, this is deemed so likely that these same women - established stage professionals - feel it constitutes a credible risk of sexual assault.

Instead of, say, some of the women don't like Trump and don't want to perform at his inauguration?

Has anyone suggested they could change into their outfits at their hotels and just do hair and makeup at the venue?
Your scenario doesn't match the facts as we know them to cast your scenario to match the known facts:
The idea is that a self-confessed sexual abuser newly elected president, at his own inauguration, is going to behave as he has in the past and go backstage to catch women changing for the show. And further, this is known to be behaviour he has admitted to doing several times in the past when he was previously in a position of authority so there is reason to believe that he will repeat his behaviour.
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Old 25th December 2016, 10:56 AM   #85
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Scantily clad female entertainers? Dancers for crying out loud. Enough to raise the blood pressure of any normal 1950s-oriented male such as The Trumpmeister, that's for sure. Who could blame our President if he, say, paid a little backstage visit to thank the 'girls' in person for making the show.

Or as The Don might put it - Woof!

Marsplot have you been in the Antarctica the past fifteen months? Maybe on an expedition?
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Old 25th December 2016, 11:07 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Isn't the idea to reduce the risk of sexual assault? Doing things to reduce that risk would seem to be as spot on as possible. Of the two courses of action, not showing up at all and changing in one's hotel room, the second seems much less a radical idea than the first.
So you agree then, it is possible Trump would go backstage when the women were dressing, got it.
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Old 25th December 2016, 11:41 AM   #87
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Sonny Bono would do it but he skied into a tree.
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Old 25th December 2016, 01:14 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So you agree then, it is possible Trump would go backstage when the women were dressing, got it.
What I understand is, it is a woman's responsibility to avoid rape, and not a man's responsibility to not rape. If the Rockettes perform, and anything happens.to them at/by the hands of the Cheeto, it's their own fault for not preventing him from doing in the first place.

Unfortunately many men believe this is the case, and if they are able to get away with assaulting you, it's your fault.
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Old 25th December 2016, 01:58 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by shuize View Post
Exactly. When the shoe's on the other foot, you will be made to care. But when it's their convictions, "Hey, that's, like, totally different and stuff, Man."

As best I can tell, religious freedom/freedom of conscience is good when it involves peyote smoking Native American drug counselors or performers who just don't like Trump. But double plus ungood when it involves religious employers who don't want to pay for abortions or bakers who prefer not to cater homosexual weddings.


Well, you know, elections have consequences. It seems a majority* of Americans have decided, and voted, that it be the law of the land that people be allowed to discriminate in any way they want when there is a matter of personal conviction on the line. As such, these performers are doing nothing more than following the law of the land as was voted on in a fair** election.

And if it turns out that the results of this aren't exactly what that majority*** thought they'd be, well, sucks to be them, they should have thought of that back when we told them how bad of an idea this was. But, hey, we lost, they won, and elections have consequences. Hope you enjoy them!



*Yes, I know.

**Yes, I know that too.

***Yes, I still know.
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Old 25th December 2016, 03:05 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post
Sonny Bono would do it but he skied into a tree.
Some people will do anything to avoid performing at Trump's inauguration.
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Old 25th December 2016, 03:33 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
No, I don't deny that it happened. No, I don't deny that Trump is more powerful today than then.

[...] the bit about increased risk of sexual assault is silly.
There appears to be a disconnect between the beginning of your post and the end. That's exactly why the increased risk of sexual assault is perfectly reasonable.

It's not like there is any evidence that Trump has changed in any in the last 10 years or so.
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Old 25th December 2016, 05:45 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
That or they would all prefer to not be grabbed by any part of their bodies.

Spoilsports.
Lock the dressing room door.
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Old 25th December 2016, 06:16 PM   #93
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Putin to Sing at Trump Inauguration

Andy Borowitz 12/18/16

WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report)—After having difficulty persuading prominent entertainers to participate at the event, the Trump transition team announced on Sunday that the Russian President Vladimir Putin would sing at Donald J. Trump’s Inauguration next month.

In a brief statement from the Kremlin, Putin said, “I will be most delighted to perform for my comrade.”

http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borow...p-inauguration
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Old 25th December 2016, 06:35 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Magrat View Post
What I understand is, it is a woman's responsibility to avoid rape, and not a man's responsibility to not rape. If the Rockettes perform, and anything happens.to them at/by the hands of the Cheeto, it's their own fault for not preventing him from doing in the first place.

Unfortunately many men believe this is the case, and if they are able to get away with assaulting you, it's your fault.
Actually, if they believe it they do not deserve to be called men.
also I would be happy to kill any I found doing that - and hopefully no one is forgetting the teen girl's ones he visited. Good father /mother should have already blown his sorry ass to hell - surprised no one tried.
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Old 25th December 2016, 06:37 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Lock the dressing room door.
He or one of his flunkies would certainly have the key.
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Old 25th December 2016, 06:40 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So you agree then, it is possible Trump would go backstage when the women were dressing, got it.
Besides, the costumes (and potential costume changes and/or makeup repair) make the changing in hotel room and walking/riding to the event unlikely to be completed successfully/without needing repairs that reopen the problem anyway.
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Old 25th December 2016, 06:47 PM   #97
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One wonders how it will be possible to staff the White House during the Trump administration, what with the increased risk of sexual assault. Surely we can't ask women to work in such an environment?
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Old 25th December 2016, 10:00 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
I feel like I need to lay out the story problem for my own satisfaction.

The idea is that a newly elected president, at his own inauguration, is going to sneak backstage to catch women changing for the show. And further, this is deemed so likely that these same women - established stage professionals - feel it constitutes a credible risk of sexual assault.

Instead of, say, some of the women don't like Trump and don't want to perform at his inauguration?

Has anyone suggested they could change into their outfits at their hotels and just do hair and makeup at the venue?
For live entertainment events and/or filming, one of the unwritten rules is "don't wear your wardrobe in transit."

Nothing will piss off a costumer/wardrobe designer more than wrinkles and creases caused by carelessness and cutting corners.
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Old 25th December 2016, 10:06 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
No, I don't deny that it happened. No, I don't deny that Trump is more powerful today than then.

The part I'm having trouble with is that those two things add up to cancelling a performance. I think it's political. Which is fine. I could see where people might not want to attend a Bill Cosby show using the same kind of protest logic. But the bit about increased risk of sexual assault is silly.
"It's political" in the sense that it involves a politician.

Maybe their objection is moral and based on his own descriptions of himself walking in on female performers in various states of undress and his rationalizing away any incivility of doing so because of his status.

There's also a huge difference between 'she shouldn't go out drinking' (victim blaming) and a rationally arrived at correlation between proximity to a known and unashamed sex offender and one's personal safety.

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Old 25th December 2016, 10:49 PM   #100
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He doesn't own the Rockettes, don't think he'd be admitted to dressing room, but the fact that this is brought up and treated seriously a sad day for the presidency.
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Old 25th December 2016, 10:52 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
One wonders how it will be possible to staff the White House during the Trump administration, what with the increased risk of sexual assault. Surely we can't ask women to work in such an environment?

Perhaps they could fill the positions with White House interns. I'm so old, I can remember when our friends on the left considered them fair game.

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Old 25th December 2016, 10:53 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
One wonders how it will be possible to staff the White House during the Trump administration, what with the increased risk of sexual assault. Surely we can't ask women to work in such an environment?
Simple, when you're president you can treat them however you want and they'll let you do it. Don't even ask, just pop a Tic-Tac. Donald's not the first dirty old man to come along. Practical advice is try not to be alone with him. Unless you want to bag a president which some might want.
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Old 25th December 2016, 10:59 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
One wonders how it will be possible to staff the White House during the Trump administration, what with the increased risk of sexual assault. Surely we can't ask women to work in such an environment?
I'm still a little jarred by language usage because in my state sexual assault is a synonym for rape. Groping would be sexual abuse. But apparently this state is unusual.

It's unnerving to realize in a crowded subway car that the guy behind you is pressing his boner against your butt. Should that be the same crime as rape? I'm not sure.
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Old 25th December 2016, 10:59 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
He doesn't own the Rockettes, don't think he'd be admitted to dressing room, but the fact that this is brought up and treated seriously a sad day for the presidency.
He didn't own the underage models performing at his pageants either. Both are contracted performers or 'talent' at an event where he held/holds a position of high regard (I cannot emphasize enough that the position is held in high regard and not the person).
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Old 25th December 2016, 11:01 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by zorro99 View Post
Putin to Sing at Trump Inauguration

Andy Borowitz 12/18/16
He's a satirist.
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Old 25th December 2016, 11:20 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
He didn't own the underage models performing at his pageants either. Both are contracted performers or 'talent' at an event where he held/holds a position of high regard (I cannot emphasize enough that the position is held in high regard and not the person).
But he owned the pageant, which I thought gave more access.
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Old 26th December 2016, 12:00 AM   #107
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Awww.. Conservatives are butt-hurt that the Rockettes don't want to perform for Mango Mussolini.
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Old 26th December 2016, 12:28 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
But he owned the pageant, which I thought gave more access.
Can a male business owner barge into the women's room simply because he owns it? His behavior is even more dubious since he likely didn't own the venue and thus the dressing room.

Owning a pageant in no ways infers that the person has any particular reason to need to be in the dressing room while performers are getting into costume. That's what you hire a wardrobe supervisor for, generally someone who has a working relationship with talent and a reputation for respectful discretion. The 'value' in owning it would be having your name mentioned repeatedly on air, giving interviews to fashion and entertainment media outlets, schmoozing and rubbing elbows with other mover-and-shakers, etc.

Besides, the balls and entertainment are handled by the Presidential Inaugural Committee, who all answer to Trump. So the same implication of it being 'his' event(s) exists.

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Old 26th December 2016, 01:10 AM   #109
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The idea he'd molest the Rockettes is a red herring. It allows liberals and progressives to make fools of ourselves kicking a dead horse and conservatives to obfuscate the more important issue... that people of conscience don't want anything to do with Trump or his inauguration.

They'll find some people to perform. Probably not anyone I give a crap about, but there's always this generation's Sinatra or John Wayne or Wayne Newton out there somewhere. They might find B-List singing acts, but they'll be headlining in the Day's Inn Lounge in Tallahassee after this gig.
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Old 26th December 2016, 01:17 AM   #110
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I don't think anyone actually believes he would molest the Rockettes. However, I applaud all those who refuse to perform for DJT because he deserves no respect and no praise.
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Old 26th December 2016, 01:55 AM   #111
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I also doubt that he would have physically molested any of them, either. However, that doesn't make privacy violation 'nothing to worry about' either (not suggesting anyone has asserted such).

I'm also in no way convinced that increased scrutiny would dissuade him from such behavior. Rational people are making that connection and he seems to have a remarkable ability to avoid seeing anything he ever does as wrong to begin with.

This is all that would come of it:
Quote:
@therealdonaldtrump: Americans watch porn all day at work wasting employers money, but I can't sign off on wardrobe I paid for? SO UNFAIR!
and then an army of morons would march forth telling us that women who dress up sexy for money have no grounds to assert their personal privacy rights, they are probably all prostitutes on the side, and inundate them with death/rape threats whether they spoke out on it publicly or not.

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Old 26th December 2016, 02:08 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
One wonders how it will be possible to staff the White House during the Trump administration, what with the increased risk of sexual assault. Surely we can't ask women to work in such an environment?
It depends we know he seeks out a certain specific type of person to assault, we've no evidence that he has changed the type of victim he goes after so the HR people can just ask him his score for any potential hire.
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Old 26th December 2016, 02:11 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I'm still a little jarred by language usage because in my state sexual assault is a synonym for rape. Groping would be sexual abuse. But apparently this state is unusual.

It's unnerving to realize in a crowded subway car that the guy behind you is pressing his boner against your butt. Should that be the same crime as rape? I'm not sure.
Rape is just one type of sexual assault not the only type.
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Old 26th December 2016, 02:31 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I don't think anyone actually believes he would molest the Rockettes. However, I applaud all those who refuse to perform for DJT because he deserves no respect and no praise.
To be fair I don't know if the Rockettes are in his usual victim group but if they are then there is every reason to belive they are at risk. We know he assaults women even with his wife in the next room, if he can get someone that is in his victim group alone we have every reason to belive they are at risk of being sexually assaulted by him.
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Old 26th December 2016, 06:08 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
For live entertainment events and/or filming, one of the unwritten rules is "don't wear your wardrobe in transit."

Nothing will piss off a costumer/wardrobe designer more than wrinkles and creases caused by carelessness and cutting corners.
Perhaps, but preventing a sexual assault might surmount the objections. Besides, they don't have to wear the entire thing, just the stuff that covers their naughty bits.
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Old 26th December 2016, 06:17 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
"It's political" in the sense that it involves a politician.

Maybe their objection is moral and based on his own descriptions of himself walking in on female performers in various states of undress and his rationalizing away any incivility of doing so because of his status.

There's also a huge difference between 'she shouldn't go out drinking' (victim blaming) and a rationally arrived at correlation between proximity to a known and unashamed sex offender and one's personal safety.
It's a subjective evaluation of risk and the significance of an unwanted outcome. If I am made too anxious by a task, I will refuse to do that task. The question is whether or not we (or, more properly, the employer) accepts the evaluation proffered. I do not.

I would try to accommodate the wishes of the performers, but there is some point where their worries extend too far. If I am able to provide a lock for the dressing room door, I would do that. If they felt more comfortable changing at their hotel, I would suggest that. Not performing because there is someone at the venue who has previously exploited his position to get a peek at disrobed women? No, that's not enough to cancel.
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Old 26th December 2016, 06:18 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by shuize View Post
Perhaps they could fill the positions with White House interns. I'm so old, I can remember when our friends on the left considered them fair game.
Was it Hastert who had the wrestling sessions? Ah, good times.
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Old 26th December 2016, 06:21 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I'm still a little jarred by language usage because in my state sexual assault is a synonym for rape. Groping would be sexual abuse. But apparently this state is unusual.

It's unnerving to realize in a crowded subway car that the guy behind you is pressing his boner against your butt. Should that be the same crime as rape? I'm not sure.
It's all rape. It has to be, because anything less than rape is diminishing the damage to the victim. We are lousy at ranking harms.
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Old 26th December 2016, 08:57 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
It's all rape. It has to be, because anything less than rape is diminishing the damage to the victim. We are lousy at ranking harms.
You may have missed this post.
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Rape is just one type of sexual assault not the only type.
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Old 26th December 2016, 09:00 AM   #120
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