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Old 29th December 2016, 10:20 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why would that be interesting? Their actions aren't really comparable.
They don't have to be. It's the reaction of others that I find interesting. Both have alienated large segments of the population by their reprehensible behavior, and both are subject to calls for ostracism because of it. I'm curious to see if anyone wanting to ostracize the one will make excuses for the other.
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Old 29th December 2016, 10:20 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
"Sexual predator" is an ill-defined word which is used to cover an incredible range of behavior. Your use of the term is a deliberate attempt to conflate very different behaviors, to confuse rather than enlighten.

Rapist, on the other hand, is a lot more specific. Polanski is a rapist. Trump is not.
And neither should be acceptable to the people claiming to care about such things.

Hydrarzine is more flammable than ethanol, but both should be handled with care. You're trying to make a distinction that need not be made for the argument being made.

EDIT: I'm just being redundant here, backing out.
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Old 29th December 2016, 10:21 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
You (and others) are conflating legal immigrants with illegal immigrants. To my knowledge, Trump has not denigrated legal immigrants. Nor has any prominent Republican politician.
You are the one doing the conflating. Who was the Rockette referring to?

Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Appointing conservative justices who take a dim view of Obergefell v Hodges is Republican orthodoxy. There isn't a single Republican candidate who wouldn't promise the same. If you have no other argument, then you are basically admitting that this isn't about Trump per se. It's about Republicans. As near as I can tell, Trump was the most pro-LGBTQ Republican candidate in the field.
That's some twisted logic. If Trump is for something and the Republican party is for it, it's not Trumps fault that he's for it.
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Old 29th December 2016, 10:33 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
I guess this poor little Rockette has been confused by fake news. Why else would she think that Trump is against (or disrespectful of) immigrants, gays, or transgender people?
How about the fact that Trump selected as his running mate Mike Pence, who has claimed that allowing Gay Marriage would lead to the collapse of society.

If Trump associates with anti-gay people and select them to be members of his administration, then don't be surprised of people assume Trump himself may be less than respectful of gay people. Simply claiming to be "pro-gay rights" is an empty statement.

Or how about Trump's statement about how a judge with Mexican heritage cannot be fair during the Trump University lawsuit. (To some, that implies that immigrants and/or their recent decendents are somehow incapable of acting rationally.)
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Would she feel differently about any other Republican candidate?
I have no idea, and its an irrelevant question. Trump is the president elect. He's the one that that is being sworn in.
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Trump is probably the most pro-LGBTQ of any of the original 17 Republican candidates
Uhh... so? That's like saying that the Plague is less fatal than Ebola. It may be true, but some people don't want to catch either one of them.
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Old 29th December 2016, 10:38 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
You are the one doing the conflating. Who was the Rockette referring to?
You think the Rockette was admitting that there are illegal immigrants working for the show? Personally, I consider it unlikely. I think the workers on these productions are unionized. I know the Rockettes themselves are.

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That's some twisted logic. If Trump is for something and the Republican party is for it, it's not Trumps fault that he's for it.
My point is that the same arguments could have been made about McCain or Romney or Marco Rubio or Jeb Bush (and would have been made during the campaign with roughly equal vigor). Unless you're admitting that their hypothetical inaugurations would also have been shunned by all "right-thinking" entertainers (which may be a plausible inference), then those excuses have nothing to do with Trump per se. There would be something else about Trump that makes people treat him as more objectionable. I'm not denying that Trump has such aggravating qualities. I just think that they have little to do with his actual policy positions.
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Old 29th December 2016, 11:02 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
You think the Rockette was admitting that there are illegal immigrants working for the show? Personally, I consider it unlikely. I think the workers on these productions are unionized. I know the Rockettes themselves are.



My point is that the same arguments could have been made about McCain or Romney or Marco Rubio or Jeb Bush (and would have been made during the campaign with roughly equal vigor). Unless you're admitting that their hypothetical inaugurations would also have been shunned by all "right-thinking" entertainers (which may be a plausible inference), then those excuses have nothing to do with Trump per se. There would be something else about Trump that makes people treat him as more objectionable. I'm not denying that Trump has such aggravating qualities. I just think that they have little to do with his actual policy positions.
How can you say it has little to do with his actual policy positions when no one knows what his policy positions are?

Trump supporters will just wave away anything inconvenient he says as just bluster and campaign rhetoric. And when he actually does something like pick a virulently anti-LGBTQ vice president, that's not supposed to reflect on his policies either.

What exactly are his policies?

When are we supposed to take him seriously?
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Old 29th December 2016, 11:13 AM   #207
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I see Jackie Evancho is singing, and it appears her sales have gone through the roof since being announced.

Nice!
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Old 29th December 2016, 11:17 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I see Jackie Evancho is singing, and it appears her sales have gone through the roof since being announced.

Nice!
Who?
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Old 29th December 2016, 11:20 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I see Jackie Evancho is singing, and it appears her sales have gone through the roof since being announced.

Nice!
When you are in the Classical Album category, the roof isn't that high.
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Old 29th December 2016, 11:21 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
How can you say it has little to do with his actual policy positions when no one knows what his policy positions are?
Did you actually think about that sentence before posting it? It proves my point, unless you think the protests are really about opposing uncertainty.

Slogan: What do we want? Less uncertainty! When do we want it? As soon as possible!

Quote:
Trump supporters will just wave away anything inconvenient he says as just bluster and campaign rhetoric. And when he actually does something like pick a virulently anti-LGBTQ vice president, that's not supposed to reflect on his policies either.
Are the protests really against Vice President elect Pence, or are they against Trump for picking Pence? Maybe they're really against Chief Justice Roberts administering the oath of office for voting against Obergefell.

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What exactly are his policies?
I suspect they will be 180 degrees opposite from what his most outspoken and uncivil critics want. The Democrats have yet to figure this out, which is good for my side I guess. Trump is on course to becoming the most conservative President ever, even though he is as far from an ideologue as you can get in politics.

Quote:
When are we supposed to take him seriously?
I think the way to figure out what Trump is going to do is to wait a couple of days after he says something and see how his advisers (particularly Kellyanne Conway) spin it. That will probably get you closest to the truth.
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Old 29th December 2016, 11:22 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Who?
She will be appearing at Trump's inaugural. Along with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. Perry Como is dead and won't be appearing.
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Old 29th December 2016, 11:23 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
When you are in the Classical Album category, the roof isn't that high.
I think she has a platinum album.
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Old 29th December 2016, 11:24 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
"Sexual predator" is an ill-defined word which is used to cover an incredible range of behavior. Your use of the term is a deliberate attempt to conflate very different behaviors, to confuse rather than enlighten.

Rapist, on the other hand, is a lot more specific. Polanski is a rapist. Trump is not.
It was just shorthand for "person who seeks out people to sexually assault". I take it you don't consider the sexual assaults that Trump carried out to be serious?
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Old 29th December 2016, 11:26 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
She will be appearing at Trump's inaugural. Along with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. Perry Como is dead and won't be appearing.
I've at least heard of the MTC.

Sadly, the Alexandrov Ensemble had to cancel their appearance.
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Old 29th December 2016, 11:28 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It was just shorthand for "person who seeks out people to sexually assault". I take it you don't consider the sexual assaults that Trump carried out to be serious?
I don't know what Trump actually "carried out". And neither do you, though you may feign otherwise. I know what he said was reprehensible, but not at all comparable to Polanski's proven actions.
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Old 29th December 2016, 11:29 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Sadly, the Alexandrov Ensemble had to cancel their appearance.
Too soon.
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Old 29th December 2016, 11:36 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Trump is on course to becoming the most conservative President ever, even though he is as far from an ideologue as you can get in politics.
What a coincidence; he's also on course to be the most fascist President ever, the most dishonest President ever, the most blatantly self-serving President ever, and the most disliked President ever.
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Old 29th December 2016, 11:37 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't know what Trump actually "carried out". And neither do you, though you may feign otherwise. I know what he said was reprehensible, but not at all comparable to Polanski's proven actions.
Yes we do. He grabs women's genitals, he is on record saying he does that, he would force his wife to have sex with him, his lawyer is on record with that. Then we have the testimony of some of the women he has sexually assaulted. To claim that we don't know what he did/does is a falsehood.
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Old 29th December 2016, 11:43 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Did you actually think about that sentence before posting it? It proves my point, unless you think the protests are really about opposing uncertainty.
What point? That he hasn't stated any positions so the only thing we have to go on is the things he, himself says and the things he, himself does?

It is all about Trump and it's Trump that people are disgusted with. Trying to deflect by saying he hasn't really said what he's going to do is disingenuous. He has said things and done things. That's what he is being judged on. Not on what the republican party stand is or what another person would have done.
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Old 29th December 2016, 11:43 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
What a coincidence; he's also on course to be the most fascist President ever, the most dishonest President ever, the most blatantly self-serving President ever, and the most disliked President ever.
All I can say is - get ready.

This will be a fight. Some of us are prepared, but if you aren't, then it's time for you to prepare.
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Old 29th December 2016, 11:45 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yes we do. He grabs women's genitals, he is on record saying he does that
And? If the women are OK with that, it's not sexual assault. So, were they OK with it? According to him, yes. He might be lying, but you don't know. And if he's lying, he could be lying about the whole thing, not just whether they were OK with it.

Quote:
Then we have the testimony of some of the women he has sexually assaulted.
And that testimony is proof?

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To claim that we don't know what he did/does is a falsehood.
No, it's skepticism. Which you have forgotten how to do.
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Old 29th December 2016, 11:46 AM   #222
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edited as redundant.
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Old 29th December 2016, 11:47 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I think she has a platinum album.
Yes she does, from 2010.
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Old 29th December 2016, 11:50 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And? If the women are OK with that, it's not sexual assault. So, were they OK with it? According to him, yes. He might be lying, but you don't know. And if he's lying, he could be lying about the whole thing, not just whether they were OK with it.



And that testimony is proof?



No, it's skepticism. Which you have forgotten how to do.
The Trump defense. He lies a lot, therefore if he says he did something bad we can dismiss it on the possibility that he lied about it.
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Old 29th December 2016, 11:57 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Who?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackie_Evancho
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Old 29th December 2016, 12:02 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
The Trump defense. He lies a lot, therefore if he says he did something bad we can dismiss it on the possibility that he lied about it.
Wrong. If he told the truth, then it's not sexual assault. It's only sexual assault if he lied in one particular way, and not in another. So, did he lie in that particular way? Maybe. But you don't know. Nor do you have any evidence. And you can't rely on the fact that he's a liar and so we should take all his statements to be lies, because it's only one possible lie and not the other possible lie which gives you the result you want. If you allow that he might be telling the truth, then you have to allow that he might be telling the truth about all of it.

Your position is, in short, illogical.
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Old 29th December 2016, 12:04 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Wrong. If he told the truth, then it's not sexual assault. It's only sexual assault if he lied in one particular way, and not in another. So, did he lie in that particular way? Maybe. But you don't know. Nor do you have any evidence. And you can't rely on the fact that he's a liar and so we should take all his statements to be lies, because it's only one possible lie and not the other possible lie which gives you the result you want. If you allow that he might be telling the truth, then you have to allow that he might be telling the truth about all of it.

Your position is, in short, illogical.
He never said they were okay with it.
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Old 29th December 2016, 12:06 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
He never said they were okay with it.
He pretty much did.

And he sure as hell didn't say they weren't.
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Old 29th December 2016, 12:08 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And? If the women are OK with that, it's not sexual assault. So, were they OK with it? According to him, yes. He might be lying, but you don't know. And if he's lying, he could be lying about the whole thing, not just whether they were OK with it.



And that testimony is proof?



No, it's skepticism. Which you have forgotten how to do.
Whilst you are entitled to your opinions I'll stick with the truth and the facts. By his own words and testimony of an ex wife, and one of his lawyers and testimony of people who have been assaulted by him he has for decades carried out multiple sexual assaults.
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Old 29th December 2016, 12:08 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And? If the women are OK with that, it's not sexual assault. So, were they OK with it? According to him, yes. He might be lying, but you don't know. And if he's lying, he could be lying about the whole thing, not just whether they were OK with it.



And that testimony is proof?



No, it's skepticism. Which you have forgotten how to do.
Not gaining consent first is assault.
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Old 29th December 2016, 12:13 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
He pretty much did.

And he sure as hell didn't say they weren't.
Please show me where he said they were okay with his pussy grabbing?
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Old 29th December 2016, 12:15 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Not gaining consent first is assault.
That's absurd.
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Old 29th December 2016, 12:16 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Not gaining consent first is assault.
No, actually, it isn't. Affirmative consent is not the standard that the law uses.
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Old 29th December 2016, 12:18 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Whilst you are entitled to your opinions I'll stick with the truth and the facts.
No you won't.

Quote:
By his own words and testimony of an ex wife, and one of his lawyers and testimony of people who have been assaulted by him he has for decades carried out multiple sexual assaults.
And you just proved you won't. He did not testify that he sexually assaulted anyone. And the testimony of other people isn't the same thing as fact either.
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Old 29th December 2016, 12:18 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And? If the women are OK with that, it's not sexual assault. So, were they OK with it?
You pose this as a definitive question; yet when it's pointed out that women have gone on record saying they were not "OK with that", you dismiss their complaints.
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Old 29th December 2016, 12:23 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
"She ate at Primanti's when the president was white."

Odd place, Wikipedia.
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Old 29th December 2016, 12:30 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
"She ate at Primanti's when the president was white."

Odd place, Wikipedia.
It's the most recent edit, by an obvious vandal.

ETA: And now undone. And not by me. I was too slow.

Last edited by sunmaster14; 29th December 2016 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 29th December 2016, 12:31 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
"She ate at Primanti's when the president was white."

Odd place, Wikipedia.
That odd edit was added today.
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Old 29th December 2016, 12:32 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
It's the most recent edit, by an obvious vandal.
Was it incorrect?
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Old 29th December 2016, 12:38 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Please show me where he said they were okay with his pussy grabbing?
"They'll let you do anything."

By his own words he did not obtain consent but, because he's a "star" he didn't have to. Therefore, these actions* were consensual. He did claim non-consensual kissing on the mouth, however. He also claimed aggressive pursuit of a married woman, while he was a married man.

So what we have here is an admitted serial sexual predator or a baby-man who felt the need to chat up whoever that loser was who was on the bus with him. If the latter then he's not a criminal (at least for this), but under either scenario he's one of the most insecure, immature, and morally repugnant human beings on Earth.

*And he claimed they never actually happened either, when directly questioned on the matter by Anderson Cooper.
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