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Tags abortion issues , abortion laws , Kentucky issues , Kentucky laws , Kentucky politics

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Old 8th January 2017, 08:38 PM   #41
thaiboxerken
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Aren't these the same people who oppose requiring people to buy health insurance?

And yet they think its ok to require women to get an ultra sound and listen to a fetal heartbeat?
Government should never interfere with a person's health care.........unless it's a woman, then it's okay.
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Old 8th January 2017, 08:43 PM   #42
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"House Bill 2 requires a physician or technician to perform an ultrasound, describe and display the ultrasound images to the mother, and provide audio of the fetal heartbeat to the mother before she may have an abortion."

This right here is why I will always, always be on the Pro-choice side in this argument, despite being unapologically beyond ambivalent about the act itself and beyond sick of the debate if we're being honest.

Listen if you don't like abortion, fine. (Well not fine but whatever). But argue that point. That's how adults work when they disagree about something. This whole emotional manipulation in the guise of "Helping them make the right decision" is pandering, dehumanizing nonsense. It's because it doesn't help you get the goal you claim you want.

At lease trying to outright ban abortions is honest, if horribly wrong.

As a parallel I make zero excuses that I tend to be a lot more pro-gun then most of many of my friends. It's lead to plenty of open and honest, even heated disagreements.

But that's how adults work when they disagree on something. They state their opinions, I state mine, and we both work legally but logically to obtain their goals. The pro-gun control side tries to restrict access to guns, they don't pull some hogwash stunt like "You have to stare at a picture of a gunshot wound for 5 minutes before purchasing a weapon" and I try to resist restrictions on access I don't go "You have to sign this peace of paper saying you don't love your family and don't think they are worth defending."

We live in a society full of differing opinions. Sometimes we come to those base disagreements that we can't compromise on and it creates a rift. That's just the way the reality works. But even when we come to those moments, those moments when sorry opposition on a base concept just has to exist there is still standards. Doing things that don't actually help you reach your goal just to get a meaningless win over the other side is not how it should work.
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Old 8th January 2017, 09:00 PM   #43
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The US founded on Judea Christian Principles

Quote:
This Founding Principle is actually embedded in our Declaration of Independence: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

http://www.internationalcopsforchris...istian-nation/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/billflax.../#6b363a4e4cd9

http://www.heritage.org/research/lec...stian-founding

http://www.debate.org/opinions/was-a...ristian-values
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Old 8th January 2017, 09:03 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
We were also founded on principles of racism, misogyny, bigotry.
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Old 8th January 2017, 09:04 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Nice try there, indeed. After reading your prose I asked myself. "Hey, maybe he's right." Then I took a dollar bill out of my wallet and examined it closely. After that I began to recall the Pledge of Allegiance and recited the words.

After doing all of that I concluded that what you wrote is just more Full of **** stuff from a Kiwi who doesn't know what he's talking about.
Did y'all defund your library and schools there in Libertopia Valley? I'm halfway around the world but I haven't forgotten the basic history of the USA. The Founding Fathers (hallowed be their name) were what we refer to as "dead" when "In God We Trust" was added to money. They and their offspring were dead by the time the Pledge of Allegiance, sans "under God", was promulgated.

Please don't promote such ignorance.
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Old 8th January 2017, 09:05 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
The US founded on Judea Christian Principles
Also the current price of tea in China 9.08 US Dollars per pound.
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Old 8th January 2017, 09:18 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
We were also founded on principles of racism, misogyny, bigotry.
It's weird how our country is "founded on Judeo-Christian principles" yet the Constitution is written to exclude religion as grounds to make law. The 1st Amendment also is a direct challenge to the 1st Commandment as well.

But, your point is well taken. Even if Reheat is correct about the origin of the country, that does not mean the country should be Judeo-Christian any more than it should still have slavery.

Of course, having a discussion with a theocratic, ideological, conservative is not really a discussion at all, but an exercise in futility. It is just an excuse for such people to yell in anger about the damned libruls and their stupid facts.
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Old 8th January 2017, 09:25 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Nice try there, indeed. After reading your prose I asked myself. "Hey, maybe he's right." Then I took a dollar bill out of my wallet and examined it closely. After that I began to recall the Pledge of Allegiance and recited the words.

After doing all of that I concluded that what you wrote is just more Full of **** stuff from a Kiwi who doesn't know what he's talking about.
Actually taking it from money and a pledge or so is not sufficient. You are not making friends or arguing well if you choose that as your standard for facts and reality!!!
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Old 8th January 2017, 09:27 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Actually taking it from money and a pledge or so is not sufficient. You are not making friends or arguing well if you choose that as your standard for facts and reality!!!
If anything, it is evidence that Christians hijacked the country from it's secular roots.
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Old 8th January 2017, 09:27 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Amazing resemblance to posts from Science by people who do not know science well at all. Please do not assume that because someone posted it it is actually true - you will be much disappointed!!!
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Old 8th January 2017, 09:32 PM   #51
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Also remember that groups with Christian in their name are highly likely to be biased heavily. Not a necessity, but generally quite realistic. If they add the word Jesus even moreso. Oddly, it is nearly certain that if you check the beliefs they hold dear you will find they are Old Testament and often are directly opposite those in the New Testament (the Christian part of the bible we are told)!!!
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Old 8th January 2017, 09:33 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The phrase was added to bills in 1957.
That's two bad timings for Reheat!!!!!
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Old 8th January 2017, 09:51 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Also the current price of tea in China 9.08 US Dollars per pound.
In the UK, it's only about 1.22 US dollars per pound.
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Old 8th January 2017, 11:44 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
If anything, it is evidence that Christians hijacked the country from it's secular roots.
Just wow. Secular roots? Please notice that the Declaration of Independence specifically mentions "Unalienable rights". This means certain rights bestowed by God that cannot be taken away. Secular roots......my hind parts.
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Old 8th January 2017, 11:46 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Just wow. Secular roots? Please notice that the Declaration of Independence specifically mentions "Unalienable rights". This means certain rights bestowed by God that cannot be taken away. Secular roots......my hind parts.
Chris B.
The Declaration if Independence is not a legal document. Also, it mentions "their creator" not "God" which is inclusive of all religions. Nice try, though.
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Old 8th January 2017, 11:59 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
The Declaration if Independence is not a legal document. Also, it mentions "their creator" not "God" which is inclusive of all religions. Nice try, though.
Wouldn't a "secular" founding fail to mention anything about creators and Gods?
Hmmmm?

A Country created using religious principles yet defining the freedom of religion need not be bound to any one religion within Government. That is what we have here.........It's all about the freedom of choice. And yes, that includes choosing no religion at all. Chris B.
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Old 9th January 2017, 12:01 AM   #57
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The First Commandment of the Bible says you're wrong. If the country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles, it Commandments would be part of it. Fortunately, you are wrong and the Commandments are absent from our government.
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Old 9th January 2017, 12:09 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
The First Commandment of the Bible says you're wrong. If the country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles, it Commandments would be part of it. Fortunately, you are wrong and the Commandments are absent from our government.
There was a good reason for this as religious freedom does not limit everyone to a single religion. This does not negate the fact that the USA was founded on Christian principles and allowed freedom of all other religions to practice as well.
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Old 9th January 2017, 12:49 AM   #59
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Incorrect.
http://www.ushistory.org/gov/2.asp
Quote:
The foundations of American government lie squarely in the 17th and 18th century European Enlightenment. The American founders were well versed in the writings of the philosophes, whose ideas influenced the shaping of the new country. Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, James Madison, and others took the brave steps of creating a government based on the Enlightenment values of liberty, equality, and a new form of justice. More than 200 years later, that government is still intact.
To not understand this influence reflects a profound ignorance of the Founding documents and the Founding Fathers.
https://prezi.com/ilivdjxy4b_t/enlig...nding-fathers/
https://www.quora.com/How-did-the-En...can-Revolution
https://tradshad.wordpress.com/writi...ican-politics/
There is no mention of Yaweh or Jesus Christ in the founding documents, nor of the ten commandments. Many of the founders were primarily Deists:
Quote:
. . . A belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe. The term is used chiefly of an intellectual movement of the 17th and 18th centuries that accepted the existence of a creator on the basis of reason but rejected belief in a supernatural deity who interacts with humankind.
John Adams in the Treaty of Tripoli:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...eached-out-mu/
Quote:
Here's the full text of Article 11:
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, -- as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims], -- and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
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Old 9th January 2017, 12:52 AM   #60
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There doesn't seem to be any exemption for non-viable fetal anomalies that are detected at 20-24 weeks. They are rare...probably less than 50 women in Kentucky in a year, but they do happen.
Most women make the heartbreaking decision to terminate a hopeless pregnancy rather than carry to term.

Being forced to go through months of looking fully pregnant, knowing the fetus will 100% die (and could die at any moment), would be so cruel. I have been pregnant (healthy baby thankfully), and I know that lots of well-meaning strangers make comments and ask questions. ("How far along are you?" "Do you know what it is?" "Have you picked a name?"...). It absolutely needs to be a choice to go through that or not. Not to mention all the physical complications that can arise.
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Old 9th January 2017, 01:07 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
The First Commandment of the Bible says you're wrong. If the country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles, it Commandments would be part of it. Fortunately, you are wrong and the Commandments are absent from our government.
The three "commandments" that one might advocate as proof of a foundation --no killing, no lying, no stealing-- have been part and parcel of human society since we came down out of the trees. We'd never come as far as we have if this wasn't so. What this is proof of is that religious morals stem from human empathy.
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Old 9th January 2017, 01:17 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Incorrect.
http://www.ushistory.org/gov/2.asp

To not understand this influence reflects a profound ignorance of the Founding documents and the Founding Fathers.
https://prezi.com/ilivdjxy4b_t/enlig...nding-fathers/
https://www.quora.com/How-did-the-En...can-Revolution
https://tradshad.wordpress.com/writi...ican-politics/
There is no mention of Yaweh or Jesus Christ in the founding documents, nor of the ten commandments. Many of the founders were primarily Deists:

John Adams in the Treaty of Tripoli:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...eached-out-mu/
I didn't say the US was founded to be a Christian Nation. I said it was founded on Christian principles. Chris B.
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Old 9th January 2017, 01:19 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
I didn't say the US was founded to be a Christian Nation. I said it was founded on Christian principles. Chris B.
Which is incorrect,
Quote:
The foundations of American government lie squarely in the 17th and 18th century European Enlightenment. The American founders were well versed in the writings of the philosophes, whose ideas influenced the shaping of the new country.
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Old 9th January 2017, 01:23 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Which is incorrect,
Oh, I think that anytime you get a bunch of Masons together they're gonna be well versed on what they're doing. Yet at the core of their decisions you will find Christian principles.....Now you can argue against it as much as you wish but that won't change the reality of this.
Chris B.
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Old 9th January 2017, 01:24 AM   #65
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In other words, the Sun will always rise in the East.
Chris B.
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Old 9th January 2017, 01:30 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Oh, I think that anytime you get a bunch of Masons together they're gonna be well versed on what they're doing. Yet at the core of their decisions you will find Christian principles.....Now you can argue against it as much as you wish but that won't change the reality of this.
Chris B.
The reality is that Christ (or Yaweh) is mentioned exactly nowhere in the founding documents. The foundation is based firmly in enlightenment values. This has been demonstrated time and again, over and over in this forum.
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Old 9th January 2017, 01:32 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
. . . the Sun will always rise in the East.
Chris B.
I would never have doubted that previously. Now I'll have to check
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Old 9th January 2017, 01:38 AM   #68
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The only people who should have a say in a woman getting an abortion are the woman herself, her partner and her/their doctor. Anyone else is sticking their nose into a personal matter which does not affect them.
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Old 9th January 2017, 01:42 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by KatieG View Post
The only people who should have a say in a woman getting an abortion are the woman herself, her partner and her/their doctor. Anyone else is sticking their nose into a personal matter which does not affect them.
Unless you're a celebrity. Then you can do whatever you want with a pussy.
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Old 9th January 2017, 02:04 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
There was a good reason for this as religious freedom does not limit everyone to a single religion. This does not negate the fact that the USA was founded on Christian principles and allowed freedom of all other religions to practice as well.
Chris B.
The #1 Christian principle is not freedom of religion, it is to only worship the "one true god." You are wrong.
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Old 9th January 2017, 02:06 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
There doesn't seem to be any exemption for non-viable fetal anomalies that are detected at 20-24 weeks. They are rare...probably less than 50 women in Kentucky in a year, but they do happen.
Most women make the heartbreaking decision to terminate a hopeless pregnancy rather than carry to term.

Being forced to go through months of looking fully pregnant, knowing the fetus will 100% die (and could die at any moment), would be so cruel. I have been pregnant (healthy baby thankfully), and I know that lots of well-meaning strangers make comments and ask questions. ("How far along are you?" "Do you know what it is?" "Have you picked a name?"...). It absolutely needs to be a choice to go through that or not. Not to mention all the physical complications that can arise.
Yes, but.. as conservatives think.. you're just a woman, stay out of politics.
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Old 9th January 2017, 03:09 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
The #1 Christian principle is not freedom of religion, it is to only worship the "one true god." You are wrong.
lol see post #64

Chris B.
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Old 9th January 2017, 03:29 AM   #73
thaiboxerken
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
lol see post #64

Chris B.
You are still wrong, post #64 is wrong.
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Old 9th January 2017, 03:35 AM   #74
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my body my choice,
The day men can carry pregnancies it becomes men's business.
I agree it is a fraught position, and I would never judge anyone's decision, but it is women's business, and face it, we have precious little of that...
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Old 9th January 2017, 06:48 AM   #75
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And, what is this Abortiuon we are speaking of anyway?
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Old 9th January 2017, 08:46 AM   #76
TragicMonkey
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
And, what is this Abortiuon we are speaking of anyway?
The worst of the new Pokémon.
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Old 9th January 2017, 08:57 AM   #77
Aepervius
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Oh, I think that anytime you get a bunch of Masons together they're gonna be well versed on what they're doing. Yet at the core of their decisions you will find Christian principles.....Now you can argue against it as much as you wish but that won't change the reality of this.
Chris B.
What core christian principle are you talking about ? Please cite some which are actually not core of all society with human (e.g. "you shall not murder" , while a core christian principle , is actually a principle found in all human societies).

Once you get a list feel free to post it.
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Old 9th January 2017, 08:58 AM   #78
Aepervius
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
And, what is this Abortiuon we are speaking of anyway?
That's the symptom of posting from a tablet and having to squint .
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Old 9th January 2017, 09:05 AM   #79
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You do realise that most of the Founding Fathers and men who wrote your constitution were at best deists. You do know that Jefferson wrote a version of the Bible taking out all the miracle stuff? John Adams in the Treaty of Tripoli stated that the government of the USA was not IN ANY SENSE founded on the Christian religion. This is what the framers of your constitution thought and believed. Just because they wrote in a language common to the people of their time does not mean they were as petty and arrogant as the fundamentalist Christians who seem to think the USA should be run their way, rather than in a way that works for the vast majority of the country who don't buy their crazy nonsense.
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Old 9th January 2017, 09:07 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Oh, I think that anytime you get a bunch of Masons together they're gonna be well versed on what they're doing. Yet at the core of their decisions you will find Christian principles.....Now you can argue against it as much as you wish but that won't change the reality of this.
Chris B.
So which Christian principle is it that says a black man is worth 3/5 of a white man?

I suppose it makes sense, though, to use the Constitution as originally written in support of your argument to suppress women's rights.

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 9th January 2017 at 09:15 AM.
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