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Old 11th April 2019, 06:14 AM   #201
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Okay. Thanks for the honesty of this reply.
Yeah. I hit a point where I wasn't going to be able to make my statement any more clear than it was. That is a limitation of me as a writer. Much better than trying to blame you for not getting it.
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Old 11th April 2019, 07:51 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There is a choice. Negotiate a peace.
They did negotiate a peace. A pretty good one, too. The peace negotiated between Japan and the US was probably the best possible peace the region could have hoped for. Not a perfect peace, by any means. And there was still a lot of other trouble in the region that needed to be dealt with - even today. But still, the US did negotiate a pretty good peace, after Pearl Harbor.
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Old 17th April 2019, 08:07 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Have you ever in your entire life used an analogy, and had your audience say, "thanks, now that you used that analogy, I understand and maybe even agree with your position"?
Yes.

At the least, a reasonable listener will see that the principle they used to reach their conclusion is in error if the same principle leads to a conclusion he rejects.

This is, after all, how rational discussions work. We evaluate principles in part by their consequences. (Strictly speaking, this is not an appeal to analogy. It is pointing out a consequence of one's proffered or apparent principle, in order to prompt a reevaluate, i.e. a reductio ad absurdum.)

Last edited by phiwum; 17th April 2019 at 08:09 AM.
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Old 17th April 2019, 08:09 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Yeah, but admittedly more often in person than on the internet (online it may be limited more to the "I understand" part, than to "I agree", that happens pretty rarely with any form of argument).

In this case I was more hoping that the analogy would help to get bob to make clear exactly where he disagreed, though I failed in that too.
It is difficult to use a reductio ad absurdum to convince some folk.

For obvious reasons.

Last edited by phiwum; 17th April 2019 at 08:10 AM.
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Old 20th April 2019, 06:15 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There is a choice. Negotiate a peace.
How?

Japan just started a war with you. What can you possibly give them that would stop the war that would be politically acceptable to the people of your own country. Remember they just put your Pacific Fleet out of action, killing over 2,000 Americans in the process.

Japan bombed Pearl Harbor to neutralise the USA for long enough to grab everything they wanted in Asia and the Pacific. There could be no negotiated peace that wouldn't have included the USA letting the Japanese carry on with their empire building and forgiving them for Pearl Harbor. I can't see that being acceptable to Roosevelt or the American people of the time any more than GW Bush acceding to Al Qaida demands after 9/11 would have been to the American people 18 years ago.
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Old 20th April 2019, 06:34 AM   #206
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Certainly not a bigger lie than the series of lies around the Vietnam War (see Pentagon Papers) but we can now officially add, "Trump did not collude with Russia in the 2016 campaign" to the growing list of whoppers. We see rather clearly this week that the Trump campaign did in fact collude with Russia. That collusion did not rise to the level of a criminal conspiracy.
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Old 20th April 2019, 06:40 AM   #207
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
How?

Japan just started a war with you. What can you possibly give them that would stop the war that would be politically acceptable to the people of your own country. Remember they just put your Pacific Fleet out of action, killing over 2,000 Americans in the process.

Japan bombed Pearl Harbor to neutralise the USA for long enough to grab everything they wanted in Asia and the Pacific. There could be no negotiated peace that wouldn't have included the USA letting the Japanese carry on with their empire building and forgiving them for Pearl Harbor. I can't see that being acceptable to Roosevelt or the American people of the time any more than GW Bush acceding to Al Qaida demands after 9/11 would have been to the American people 18 years ago.
As an American person, I find those terms acceptable.
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Old 20th April 2019, 12:17 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Certainly not a bigger lie than the series of lies around the Vietnam War (see Pentagon Papers) but we can now officially add, "Trump did not collude with Russia in the 2016 campaign" to the growing list of whoppers. We see rather clearly this week that the Trump campaign did in fact collude with Russia. That collusion did not rise to the level of a criminal conspiracy.
And no matter the facts, no matter how many people using half a brain or more recognize what the Mueller report actually says, Trump will continue to repeat Mueller exonerated him, and continue to believe he got away with it.
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Old 20th April 2019, 03:54 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
How?There could be no negotiated peace that wouldn't have included the USA letting the Japanese carry on with their empire building and forgiving them for Pearl Harbor. I can't see that being acceptable to Roosevelt or the American people of the time any more than GW Bush acceding to Al Qaida demands after 9/11 would have been to the American people 18 years ago.
You do understand these are Bob's preferred outcomes?
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Old 20th April 2019, 04:06 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Certainly not a bigger lie than the series of lies around the Vietnam War (see Pentagon Papers) but we can now officially add, "Trump did not collude with Russia in the 2016 campaign" to the growing list of whoppers. We see rather clearly this week that the Trump campaign did in fact collude with Russia. That collusion did not rise to the level of a criminal conspiracy.
Yes, of course it was Trump/Assange/Putin collusion.... and it most probably does constitute criminal conspiracy. The parties involved were minimally bright enough to avoid leaving an actionable smoking gun. And anyone who doesn't think the stolen material didn't have a significant affect on a razor thin election is an imbecile.
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Old 20th April 2019, 08:59 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Yes, of course it was Trump/Assange/Putin collusion.... and it most probably does constitute criminal conspiracy. The parties involved were minimally bright enough to avoid leaving an actionable smoking gun. And anyone who doesn't think the stolen material didn't have had a significant affect on a razor thin election is an imbecile.
My apologies for the double negative.
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Old Yesterday, 03:58 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
As an American person, I find those terms acceptable.
As a US American person in 1941, you are a figment of your own imagination.
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Old Yesterday, 06:41 PM   #213
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I don't know if it's the biggest political lie, but right up there is that we need to make America great again.
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Old Yesterday, 06:45 PM   #214
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Biggest lie of the past three years:

The economy is excellent. Thanks Donald Trump!
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Old Yesterday, 11:42 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Trump will continue to repeat Mueller exonerated him, and continue to believe he got away with it.
Which he did.
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