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Tags 2020 elections , democratic party , presidential candidates

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Old 11th April 2019, 11:28 AM   #1801
kellyb
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
I would like to point out that you have to be very careful with what you actually believe about Sanger. Filthy lying Christians have flooded the world with misinformation about her. You really have to be careful with your sources when researching her.
Absolutely, but this is legit:

http://time.com/4081760/margaret-san...tory-eugenics/
Quote:
In a 1921 article, she wrote that, “the most urgent problem today is how to limit and discourage the over-fertility of the mentally and physically defective.”
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Old 11th April 2019, 11:30 AM   #1802
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Marx had predicted that humanity would evolve naturally into a better form. In turn, this better humanity would build a better society - the worker's paradise. .
Source?
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Old 11th April 2019, 01:03 PM   #1803
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Tulsi Gabbard has everything it takes to become US president except the support of the establishment.
She has her niche strengths.

Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'd like her to be Secretary of State.

Very glad to know she'll be in the debates.
This.
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Old 11th April 2019, 08:37 PM   #1804
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Tulsi Gabbard has everything it takes to become US president except the support of the establishment.
I can't think of anyone ever who I've had this level of confidence in.
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Old 11th April 2019, 09:18 PM   #1805
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yeah right, because access to birth control equates to eugenics.
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
First of all, where does it say Sanger was a progressive?
The request was for names, was it not? The part about Planned Parenthood was there to clarify who Sanger was, given that I wouldn't expect anyone to immediately recognize the name, unlike FDR, not establish that she was a progressive or say that access to birth control equates to eugenics.

Now, with that said, when it comes to Sanger and eugenics, I think that this passage helps sum it up.

Quote:
For all of her advocacy work, Sanger was not without controversy. She has been criticized for her association with eugenics, a branch of science that seeks to improve the human species through selective mating. As grandson Alexander Sanger, chair of the International Planned Parenthood Council, explained, "She believed that women wanted their children to be free of poverty and disease, that women were natural eugenicists, and that birth control, which could limit the number of children and improve their quality of life, was the panacea to accomplish this." Still Sanger held some views that were common at the time, but now seem abhorrent, including support of sterilization for the mentally ill and mentally impaired. Despite her controversial comments, Sanger focused her work on one basic principle: "Every child should be a wanted child."
It may be worth noting, again, that relatively mild forms of eugenics were pretty well accepted throughout much of society in those days.

As for the question of whether Sanger was a progressive... It's certainly true that that Sanger is not specifically named as a progressive in the article that I had supplied. The most important of the reasons that I identify her as that, though, is her overt attempts to advance progressive causes.
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Old 11th April 2019, 09:50 PM   #1806
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
The request was for names, was it not? The part about Planned Parenthood was there to clarify who Sanger was, given that I wouldn't expect anyone to immediately recognize the name, unlike FDR, not establish that she was a progressive or say that access to birth control equates to eugenics.

Now, with that said, when it comes to Sanger and eugenics, I think that this passage helps sum it up.



It may be worth noting, again, that relatively mild forms of eugenics were pretty well accepted throughout much of society in those days.

As for the question of whether Sanger was a progressive... It's certainly true that that Sanger is not specifically named as a progressive in the article that I had supplied. The most important of the reasons that I identify her as that, though, is her overt attempts to advance progressive causes.
Which progressive causes were that?
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Old 11th April 2019, 10:31 PM   #1807
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Which progressive causes were that?
The kind that get her included in most lists of prominent progressive reformers of the Progressive Era.

For example, -

Quote:
Progressive reformers wanted to end political corruption, improve the lives of individuals, and increase government intervention to protect citizens.

The suffrage movement was part of this wave of Progressive Era reforms. Prominent suffragists led other progressive causes as well. Jane Addams established Chicago’s Hull-House, a settlement house that educated and provided services for local immigrants. Ida B. Wells-Barnett led a campaign against the lynching of African Americans.

While earlier generations discouraged women from participating in public, political movements, society began to embrace female activism in the late nineteenth century. Progressives often argued that women’s politics complemented their traditional roles as wives and mothers, caregivers and keepers of virtue. Margaret Sanger argued that birth control would improve family life, especially for working classes. Charlotte Hawkins Brown worked to ensure that black children received a good education. Florence Kelley fought for laws that protected women in the workplace. By turning women’s traditional social roles into public and political ones, this generation of reformers began to win broader support for women’s votes.
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Old 12th April 2019, 06:15 AM   #1808
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
But in the case in question there was a reason given, and you still said it was a good thing she was threatened with jail.

Well I'm an "ends justify the means" kind of guy. The program worked and is considered a huge success that was emulated in numerous other cities and was a key platform plank when Harris ran for and won the election for state Attorney General.
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Old 12th April 2019, 06:54 AM   #1809
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
The kind that get her included in most lists of prominent progressive reformers of the Progressive Era.

For example, -
She advanced progressive causes like Right Said Fred made hit songs
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Old 12th April 2019, 07:00 AM   #1810
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
She advanced progressive causes like Right Said Fred made hit songs
She wore a mesh shirt? That must have turned some heads back then!
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Old 12th April 2019, 07:09 AM   #1811
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Because I don't want to assert a position that will incur a burden of proof.
Opinions don't incur a burden of proof.
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Old 12th April 2019, 07:10 AM   #1812
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Opinions don't incur a burden of proof.
"It is my opinion that vaccines cause autism."

No burden of proof there?

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 12th April 2019 at 07:24 AM.
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Old 12th April 2019, 07:16 AM   #1813
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I have used up (already!) my NYT free articles so I couldn't read your link, although I did see that it was written by Friedman so would have had to read it with more than the normal skepticism. In any case, can you give a quickie summary.
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Old 12th April 2019, 07:18 AM   #1814
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I can't think of anyone ever who I've had this level of confidence in.
Agreed. Every candidate who I know more than just their name has significant liabilities so I seriously doubt she has "everything".
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Old 12th April 2019, 07:21 AM   #1815
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My apologizes for not observing my own warning sign.
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Old 12th April 2019, 10:19 AM   #1816
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
I have used up (already!) my NYT free articles so I couldn't read your link, although I did see that it was written by Friedman so would have had to read it with more than the normal skepticism. In any case, can you give a quickie summary.
You know what it says. Something like:

"While talking to a taxi driver in Beijing last week about Davos, it occurred to me that the American left is often a lot like the Chinese toy makers we passed by as they were eating lunch outside. Many want to believe that progress can only come from governments, but progress is like power; it can be addictive."

Bla bla bla....
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Old 12th April 2019, 10:20 AM   #1817
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OMG! I just clicked on it and I wasn't that far off!

Quote:
Watching both the health care and climate/energy debates in Congress, it is hard not to draw the following conclusion: There is only one thing worse than one-party autocracy, and that is one-party democracy, which is what we have in America today.

One-party autocracy certainly has its drawbacks. But when it is led by a reasonably enlightened group of people, as China is today, it can also have great advantages. That one party can just impose the politically difficult but critically important policies needed to move a society forward in the 21st century. It is not an accident that China is committed to overtaking us in electric cars, solar power, energy efficiency, batteries, nuclear power and wind power. China’s leaders understand that in a world of exploding populations and rising emerging-market middle classes, demand for clean power and energy efficiency is going to soar. Beijing wants to make sure that it owns that industry and is ordering the policies to do that, including boosting gasoline prices, from the top down.
ETA: the text of the article has absolutely nothing to do with the sentence "Even today, there are American progressives who still see the totalitarian state as an agent of progress." Here Friedman is just complaining about the GOP and calling us a "one party democracy" because the GOP was obstructing Obama and the democrats. Or something like that.
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Last edited by kellyb; 12th April 2019 at 10:25 AM.
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Old 12th April 2019, 11:22 AM   #1818
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I've kind of lost track. Has the number of Democratic candidates reached the point where you need to switch from a spreadsheet to a database to keep track of them yet?
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Old 12th April 2019, 11:31 AM   #1819
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I've kind of lost track. Has the number of Democratic candidates reached the point where you need to switch from a spreadsheet to a database to keep track of them yet?
There are 1,048,576 rows in an Excel spreadsheet, so no, not yet.
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Old 12th April 2019, 11:45 AM   #1820
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Originally Posted by Jungle Jim View Post
There are 1,048,576 rows in an Excel spreadsheet, so no, not yet.
I did a VLOOKUP between the list of potential Democratic candidates and my tab of likes, and every row came up #N/A.
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Old 12th April 2019, 12:45 PM   #1821
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
OMG! I just clicked on it and I wasn't that far off!

ETA: the text of the article has absolutely nothing to do with the sentence "Even today, there are American progressives who still see the totalitarian state as an agent of progress." Here Friedman is just complaining about the GOP and calling us a "one party democracy" because the GOP was obstructing Obama and the democrats. Or something like that.
I really don't get why you're obsessing over this. You may find an occasional person who might refer to themselves as a progressive that support these things, but they are outliers. At least in the US. That said, there are totalitarian concerns that arise from both the right and the left. There are at least as many Francisco Francos and Pinochets out there as there are Robespierres.
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Old 12th April 2019, 01:40 PM   #1822
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I really don't get why you're obsessing over this. You may find an occasional person who might refer to themselves as a progressive that support these things, but they are outliers. At least in the US. That said, there are totalitarian concerns that arise from both the right and the left. There are at least as many Francisco Francos and Pinochets out there as there are Robespierres.
What am I obsessing over? The predictability and absurdity of Thomas Friedman's writing style? lol

eta:
Were you maybe not following the conversation back to the sentence "Even today, there are American progressives who still see the totalitarian state as an agent of progress" used as a hyperlink text to an article about a totally different topic?
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Last edited by kellyb; 12th April 2019 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 12th April 2019, 08:07 PM   #1823
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So is Biden running or not?
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Old 12th April 2019, 08:16 PM   #1824
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Originally Posted by MrFliop View Post
So is Biden running or not?
He hasn't decided yet, but he'll be in touch. I mean, he's feeling his way. Taking a hands-on approach.
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Old 12th April 2019, 08:26 PM   #1825
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
He hasn't decided yet, but he'll be in touch. I mean, he's feeling his way. Taking a hands-on approach.
lol
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Old 13th April 2019, 03:58 AM   #1826
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Well I'm an "ends justify the means" kind of guy. The program worked and is considered a huge success that was emulated in numerous other cities and was a key platform plank when Harris ran for and won the election for state Attorney General.
I don't know why we had this whole conversation then. You are absolutely OK with innocent children and parents being threatened with jail, as long as the program "works". You could have just said that to start with.
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Old 13th April 2019, 06:13 AM   #1827
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Here's WaPO's latest ranking. It's considerably different than others I've seen.
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Old 13th April 2019, 07:25 AM   #1828
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Here's WaPO's latest ranking. It's considerably different than others I've seen.
I love it!

(But I'd be nitpicking their methodology to death if it wasn't telling me what I want to hear. Heh. )
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Old 13th April 2019, 07:26 AM   #1829
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Man, this thread sure is obsessed with Biden. Should we rename it The Biden Thread?
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Old 13th April 2019, 08:37 AM   #1830
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Here's WaPO's latest ranking. It's considerably different than others I've seen.
It's not a poll. It's one writer's opinion.
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Old 13th April 2019, 12:53 PM   #1831
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A (female) writer talks about the problems the women who are running on the Democratic side are facing:

Quote:
Neither of these numbers are as high as they should be. But when you look at them next to how much the male candidates are out-polling and out-fundraising female ones for the 2020 presidential race, it's obvious that people really aren't talking the talk. Look no further than South Bend, IN, Mayor Pete Buttigieg pulling ahead of Sen. Elizabeth Warren in Iowa, in third place behind former Vice President Joe Biden and Sen. Bernie Sanders. He has also outearned Warren, bringing in $7 million in the first quarter of 2019 while she brought in $6 million. A late-March Quinnipiac poll shows him tied for fifth place with Warren nationally.

Why are some voters choosing Buttigieg over a policy heavyweight who has brought more exciting and well thought-out ideas to the table than any candidate so far? Like the senator from Massachusetts, he's a capitalist who wants to tax the rich and get big money out of politics. Like Warren, he's also open to abolishing both the Senate filibuster and the Electoral College so Democrats can actually make their proposals happen. But unlike her, he doesn't have a ton of specific details on his plans or experience bringing them to life. "I really like Pete Buttigieg. He is intelligent. He is decent. He is curious," tweeted commentator Jill Filipovic. "But when he says, 'I think that policy matters, I’m a policy guy,' but all of his policies are basically Warren's (except less specific and less progressive), I wonder why he's not working for her." Good question.
Note the assumption there that voters want more specific and more progressive. Actually I think the real problem for Warren is that the lane she wants to run in is already filled by Bernie Sanders.

As for Buttigieg, he's the shiny new candidate, like Obama in 2008 and Howard Dean (less successfully) in 2004. Plus Buttigieg checks off all the right boxes for the meritocratic millennials; he went to the right school (Harvard), then Oxford for a Rhodes Scholarship, then worked for McKinsey and as a Naval Intelligence Officer in Afghanistan and was elected mayor of his hometown (some of these occupations overlapped a bit). Oh, and he's gay.

However, I do think the writer makes an interesting point here:

Quote:
The misogyny in political coverage is made worse by the fact that 70% of political coverage overall and 74% of election news at online news outlets is done by men, according to a new report from the Women's Media Center. It's made even worse when you consider that they seem to exist within an echo chamber: Male political reporters retweet other men three times more than their female colleagues. It's all but guaranteed that most people who tweet this article will be women, when it's the male reporters who need to read it most.
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Old 13th April 2019, 02:14 PM   #1832
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Sadly, because he knows the political minefield, the apology needs to be made, but more in lieu of an explanation. Some things need to be taken back from the ideologues who have co-opted them.

I have no problem with the idea that we need to return to a better, more forward-looking America with progressive and liberal (in the founders' sense of the word) ideals. In short, anyone who wants to get America back on track and turn away from the egocentric hedonistic miasma the conservative movement it has fallen for. You know, there's a nice phrase for that sentiment.... let's make America great again.

But that expression has been co-opted by people who want no such thing. They want to return America to Ward and June and Wally and Beaver times - times that didn't exist.

Mayor Pete didn't realize that the phrase was being used to say, "Hey, you're not special, sparky! All lives matter; get over yourselves!" Just as the little Mooslim Congresswoman didn't realize that the words she was using had been co-opted by numerous Anti-Semites couching themselves in Anti-Zionist jargon. Nothing wrong with being anti-zionist... why some of my (((best friends))) are. But when you use words that have been taken on as a mantra by reprehensible dogmatists, you pay the price.
It doesn't really help when people like Peter King or Cheeto Benito are overtly anti-Semitic yet are given a pass by the same people that insist Rep. Omar is a horrible anti-Semite for speaking out against anti-Muslim hysteria or anti-BDS laws. Makes it rather clear that the actual objection is to her being black/female/Muslim/refugee, rather than any concern about hatred of Jewish people.

I still have objections to "mayor Pete", including some rather disturbing hints about lead poitoning that he contributed to by demolishing older buildings without taking lead paint dust into account. But from the link, it sounds like he fully understands what the issue with the "all lives matter" retort to the BLM movement is, so I see no need to belabor that particular point.
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Old 13th April 2019, 04:33 PM   #1833
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
I don't know why we had this whole conversation then. You are absolutely OK with innocent children and parents being threatened with jail, as long as the program "works". You could have just said that to start with.
Personally, as long as the parents are also being offered help for whatever is causing the child to miss such a high number of school days, I have no real problem with it.

Now, are there local DAs that will abuse such a system? Quite possibly - and in that case, the solutions is to replace the local DA, since they're certainly abusing their power in other ways as well.
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Old 16th April 2019, 12:48 AM   #1834
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Mayor Pete was on Rachel Maddow tonight, and he presented himself well enough that I expect he'll pick up a couple points in the next polls. A lot of people I know are starting to take him seriously.
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Old 16th April 2019, 02:00 AM   #1835
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Mayor Pete was on Rachel Maddow tonight, and he presented himself well enough that I expect he'll pick up a couple points in the next polls. A lot of people I know are starting to take him seriously.
He seems to be picking up a lot of support at this stage - he's finishing 3rd in a fair few polls and is easily the biggest mover.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/ep...ination_polls/
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Old 16th April 2019, 05:19 AM   #1836
SuburbanTurkey
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I'm curious how organizing these debates will go. The first few are going to be an absolute circus given how many candidates there are. Hopefully there will be a quick narrowing of the field to something more manageable.

I expect there to be much gnashing of teeth over who gets put at the "kids table" should they split the debate into tiers.
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Old 16th April 2019, 07:14 AM   #1837
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm curious how organizing these debates will go. The first few are going to be an absolute circus given how many candidates there are. Hopefully there will be a quick narrowing of the field to something more manageable.

I expect there to be much gnashing of teeth over who gets put at the "kids table" should they split the debate into tiers.
The DNC has said they will hold the first debates split over two nights with qualifying candidates supposedly being randomly selected to avoid that issue.

I guess we will see if they actually follow through

Last edited by The_Animus; 16th April 2019 at 07:18 AM.
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Old 16th April 2019, 07:36 AM   #1838
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
He seems to be picking up a lot of support at this stage - he's finishing 3rd in a fair few polls and is easily the biggest mover.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/ep...ination_polls/
This morning, he's moved to 2nd place on Democratic Underground: Harris 12%, Buttigieg 11%, Biden 10%, Sanders 8%, undecided 44%. (Looks like he picked up points from the undecided.)
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Old 16th April 2019, 07:55 AM   #1839
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
This morning, he's moved to 2nd place on Democratic Underground: Harris 12%, Buttigieg 11%, Biden 10%, Sanders 8%, undecided 44%. (Looks like he picked up points from the undecided.)
Oh, I like Undecided. Definitely the best representative of the Democratic Party. Let's elect President Undecided.
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Old 16th April 2019, 08:24 AM   #1840
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Oh, I like Undecided. Definitely the best representative of the Democratic Party. Let's elect President Undecided.
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