ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Ivanka Trump

Reply
Old 18th December 2016, 11:35 PM   #81
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 20,268
The Atheist, there is no need to gild the lilly when discussing Trump. Drop the hyperbole as the basic facts of this man and the actions of his family are subject enough for concern. Discussions will only become mired in irrelevant discussions of your over-the-top imagery.
__________________
'The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.' - Richard Feynman
Sideroxylon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th December 2016, 01:50 AM   #82
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 22,030
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Discussions will only become mired in irrelevant discussions of your over-the-top imagery.
Bit late for that, though. Humour's all there is left.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th December 2016, 03:54 AM   #83
stevea
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,060
Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
...

My read as well. He's in it for him, which is consistent with his life to date.
Do you imagine Jimmy Carter's peanut farm or Papa Bush's oil biz were charitable institutions ? I mean it's hardly surprising that a business entity is chartered to make a profit; or that a closely held family biz can be described as 'self-interested'. we're all self-interested - no ?

Quote:
The question is: will the job change the man? It takes a toll on most, and is much harder than any of them who want it understand until they are in it.

TA's rants aren't of interest to me, but the potential for conflict of interest, given the man's wealth, are. Why?

We had experience at the micro level here just under a decade ago. A local developer ended up getting elected mayor. All in all not a bad guy, but he had to recuse himself on over half of the issues at city council due to conflict of interest that he was aware of, and got accused of a number of cases of the same by his political opponents ... last I recall none of them had substance.
That opponents complain isn't any sort of indictment. OTOH if he had to recuse himself so often that he wasn't performing the duties of office that's a legitimate complaint.

Quote:
But that's micro level.
Trump's a few orders of magnitude up the scale. The conflict of interest is of concern, since the media nowadays are far less cordial then when, for example, the Kennedy family showed up in the White House.
I really don't see this massive conflict of interest that has captured the imagination of so many. A casino-operator/hotelier isn't any more reliant or beholding on government than any other biz.

That the left-press will hate-on Trump is a given no matter what he does or how he separates himself from his biz and personal advisers. The only way that fact will change is if the conventional partisan press fails financially.

This 'CoI' claim seems to originate from some anti-biz meme that prefers to disqualify anyone in the private sector from running for office. FWIW the only Dem Pres candidate who had any career outside of law/government was Lincoln Chafee - who was once a farrier (shoed horses). The Trump election was clearly a reaction against these political 'lifers'.

Quote:
If you read any in depth coverage of people who knew and worked with Kennedy, you find that JFK had a very small group of people he consulted with and trusted, and his family were his closest confidants/advisers on a variety of topics.

Think about this: when the Cuban Missile Crisis was going off, JFK spent a lot of time talking with ...RFK. FFS, with a cabinet full of the so called best and brightest, his closest adviser was an inexperienced political hack.
Robert McNamara wasn't exactly a rube in such matters, and why exactly would anyone imagine that most presidents don't seek sound counsel from trusted ppl ? RFK had no cold-war diplomacy experience, but JFK might well have wanted to talk out the options and outcomes with a trusted person as a sounding board. So what ? Next they'll be complaining that Presidents get counsel from their spouses !

Quote:
I smell the same sort of problem with Trump. He's not a insider, and he won't trust anyone, and barely listen to anyone he has to appoint. (And seriously, who'd work for the man? No record for listening).
IMO that is the real fear. Trump, unlike most CEOs, ran a large family biz where he was presumably the largest share-holder. He didn't have to answer to anyone except family. No board of director (I presume) nor outside shareholders to answer to. That's quite unlike the typical CEO.

I find his personality very off-putting, and some part of that are his East-Coastal (lack of) manners (from my mid-west POV ). No I wouldn't work directly for him - life is too short. OTOH DC-lifers have a very different agenda than I do, and the moths will be attracted to the flame, regardless.


Does he listen to anyone aside from a few insiders ? Is he able to revise his views based on a fair presentation of facts ? We'll have to wait.

Quote:
So in a round about way, TA's thread offers me an opening to vent: conflict of interest is likely Trump's Achille's heel.
I really don't see that at all.

The CoI regulation doesn't appear to apply to the Pres, but in any case ...

Quote:
Section 208, in general, prohibits a Government employee in his official capacity from participating personally and substantially through decision, approval, disapproval, recommendation, the rendering of advice, or otherwise in any particular matter in which, to his knowledge, he, his spouse, minor child, partner, organization in which he is serving as officer, director, trustee, partner, or employee or any person or organization with whom he is negotiating or has any arrangement concerning prospective employment has a financial interest.
So if Trump LLC issues him a bond for his fraction of the biz, and he steps down as an active participant in Trump LLC - that is all the 'distance' the law requires.

Note carefully that the restriction applies to spouses and minor children. So say Ivanka running Trump LLC does not create a conflict of interest. Even if she's an 'advisor' this only requires that she disclose her interests. Chelsea running the Clinton Foundation or chatting w/ President Hillary would not be a problem either. OTOH Bills speaking fees to parties in talks with the state department were a clear conflicts of interest while Hillary was Sec-of-State.

The sort of CoIs the law intends to prevent would be making official decisions to benefit himself, spouse, minor children. I don't see that happening in any case, and particularly not if Trump is not an active participant in Trump LLC. It would be far too obvious and would get him impeached, even by his Rep semi-supporters.

Funny how Trump is suddenly the conflict of interest poster-boy while this has gone on for decades ...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.3d2d75a937c8
stevea is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th December 2016, 05:56 AM   #84
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 48,315
The Secret Service is going to have to pay Trump rent in order to do their jobs of protecting his family because they refuse to live in the White House. Not only does he expect them to take a bullet for him, he expects them to pay him for the privelege of doing so!
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th December 2016, 06:00 AM   #85
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
 
thaiboxerken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 29,896
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The Secret Service is going to have to pay Trump rent in order to do their jobs of protecting his family because they refuse to live in the White House. Not only does he expect them to take a bullet for him, he expects them to pay him for the privelege of doing so!
It's not unusual for POTUS to charge the Secret Service rent. However, to do so for many months is "unpresidented" as Trump would say. DJT did say he would be the first POTUS to make bank in the office, and he's already proving it.
__________________
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine
thaiboxerken is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th December 2016, 06:05 AM   #86
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 48,315
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
It's not unusual for POTUS to charge the Secret Service rent. However, to do so for many months is "unpresidented" as Trump would say. DJT did say he would be the first POTUS to make bank in the office, and he's already proving it.
All the charm and sense of Nicholae Ceausescu. I wonder if Trump knows about him? He liked to give rousing speeches to crowds of people, too.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th December 2016, 06:24 AM   #87
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 85,400
Originally Posted by stevea View Post
...snip...

Funny how Trump is suddenly the conflict of interest poster-boy while this has gone on for decades ...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.3d2d75a937c8
A perfect example of the Tu quoque fallacy!
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th December 2016, 06:35 AM   #88
NoahFence
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 22,131
Originally Posted by stevea View Post
I really don't see this massive conflict of interest that has captured the imagination of so many. A casino-operator/hotelier isn't any more reliant or beholding on government than any other biz.
Quite possibly one of the more ignorant and tone-deaf statements I've read on here outside of the conspiracy subforum.

Trump's conflicts of interest, which include his cabinet members, are legion.

Trump's hotel in DC is a perfect example. If you want face time with the President, stay there. Otherwise forget it.
NoahFence is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2016, 12:51 AM   #89
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 22,030
Rumours start to circulate that Queen Ivanka is eyeing up an office in the White House traditionally reserved for FLOTUS.

Quote:
Ivanka has never explicitly denied having political ambitions, with speculation that this could be a way of priming her to run for the top job herself one day.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news...ectid=11771850
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2016, 01:49 AM   #90
Roger Ramjets
Illuminator
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,949
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
This woman... knows as little about her voters as Paris Hilton does about quantum physics
Evidence?

Look, you've got this all wrong. Let us agree that Trump is the worst US president ever, and that practically anyone else would be an improvement. So why knock Ivanka? We have no evidence that she wouldn't do a better job than her father - and she's a woman!

I for one would be happy to see her out front and center while daddy stays in the wings (and yes, I too would totally be porking her).
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2016, 10:25 AM   #91
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 22,030
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Look, you've got this all wrong. Let us agree that Trump is the worst US president ever, and that practically anyone else would be an improvement. So why knock Ivanka? We have no evidence that she wouldn't do a better job than her father - and she's a woman!
Do you reckon she has any black friends? Or has ever touched a homeless person? Do you think she has ideas about how to combat violence, terrorism - including that by the cops?

She might have a heart of gold, but I'd be incredulous if she had a single clue about the actual problems people face. She went to an enormously expensive private school and has lived an elitist lifestyle from the moment she was born, the apple of daddy's eye.

Being a complete product of Trump's loins and ideology (if you could even call it that) I'd be surprised if she were any improvement at all.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd December 2016, 10:55 AM   #92
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 33,330
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
A perfect example of the Tu quoque fallacy!
Is there an appeal to fallacies fallacy? If not, there should be.

Anyway, one man's accusation of tu quoque is another man's accusation of special pleading.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th July 2017, 04:57 PM   #93
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 22,030
If only I could find an emoticon to fit this: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news...ectid=11887987

Queen Ivanka's ascension is now complete.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th July 2017, 06:49 PM   #94
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 20,268
In Trumps defense, she couldnt be any less competent.
__________________
'The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.' - Richard Feynman
Sideroxylon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th July 2017, 07:39 PM   #95
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
mgidm86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,301
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
If only I could find an emoticon to fit this: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news...ectid=11887987

Queen Ivanka's ascension is now complete.
This?:

Quote:
The first daughter was spotted slipping into Trump's seat at a working session on "Partnership with Africa, Migration and Health,"....

....

She entered the session with her father but "briefly joined the main table when the President had to step out", a spokesperson for the first daughter said.
Sounds ominous.
__________________
Franklin understands certain kickbacks you obtain unfairly are legal liabilities; however, a risky deed's almost never detrimental despite extra external pressures.
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th July 2017, 08:07 PM   #96
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 48,315
Ugh. Anybody sitting in a chair after Trump risks sitting in a puddle of dementia incontinence.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2017, 12:35 PM   #97
applecorped
Rotten to the Core
 
applecorped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 19,155
__________________
All You Need Is Love.
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2017, 12:37 PM   #98
applecorped
Rotten to the Core
 
applecorped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 19,155
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Bit late for that, though. Humour's all there is left.
All there is to the Left perhaps.
__________________
All You Need Is Love.
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2017, 02:32 PM   #99
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 20,723
Queen? Crown Princess, surely.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2017, 07:46 PM   #100
Darth Rotor
Salted Sith Cynic
 
Darth Rotor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 38,527
If Leslie Nielsen walks in and asks for the Crown Princess Shirley, you'll know the farce is complete.
__________________
Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission.
"Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis
Darth Rotor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2017, 04:05 AM   #101
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 45,722
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
If only I could find an emoticon to fit this: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news...ectid=11887987

Queen Ivanka's ascension is now complete.
It was take your daughter to work day.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2017, 02:32 PM   #102
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 22,030
Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
All there is to the Left perhaps.
Don't be absurd.

The Left has never had such a luxury of riches to use, added to daily by the Twit in Chief.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2017, 02:41 PM   #103
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 12,743
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
This?:
The first daughter was spotted slipping into Trump's seat at a working session on "Partnership with Africa, Migration and Health,"....
....
She entered the session with her father but "briefly joined the main table when the President had to step out", a spokesperson for the first daughter said.

Sounds ominous.
She was an individual who 1) was not elected, 2) was not formally appointed (she is just considered "an advisor"), and 3) had no experience or qualifications that would be relevant to the discussions.

While I don't think it would cause a collapse in civilization if she sat in the Orangutan-in-Chief's chair for a few minutes, that doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't a foolish thing.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2017, 03:34 PM   #104
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 48,315
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
She was an individual who 1) was not elected, 2) was not formally appointed (she is just considered "an advisor"), and 3) had no experience or qualifications that would be relevant to the discussions.

While I don't think it would cause a collapse in civilization if she sat in the Orangutan-in-Chief's chair for a few minutes, that doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't a foolish thing.
She also sat on the Iron Throne for a few minutes, causing Ned Stark to mistrust her and her family for the rest of his life. "Hey, Ned," more reasonable people said, "it's just a chair, no need to lose your head over it."

eta: Does Trump ever go boar hunting?
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2017, 03:46 PM   #105
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 33,330
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
She was an individual who 1) was not elected, 2) was not formally appointed (she is just considered "an advisor"), and 3) had no experience or qualifications that would be relevant to the discussions.

While I don't think it would cause a collapse in civilization if she sat in the Orangutan-in-Chief's chair for a few minutes, that doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't a foolish thing.
Tell it to The Atheist. He's the one saying it completes her ascension.

This signature is intended to irradiate people.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2017, 04:10 PM   #106
Whip
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,391
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Ugh. Anybody sitting in a chair after Trump risks sitting in a puddle of dementia incontinence.
lingering in the cloud of a fart
Whip is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2017, 10:00 PM   #107
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,687
Apparently, Angela Merkel thought it was fine (be interested to know if this was the case) and in any case, had Chelsea Clinton done it, then the press would have been delighted

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40561077
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2017, 10:18 PM   #108
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 7,494
The optics are bad, but I agree that Ivanka warning her Dad's seat at a non-critical time isn't a big deal.
If she had opened her mouth, now that would have been a different matter.

But it is clear that Trump believes he's grooming Ivanka for his current job.
__________________
Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isn’t.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2017, 05:41 AM   #109
elgarak
Illuminator
 
elgarak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,352
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Apparently, Angela Merkel thought it was fine (be interested to know if this was the case) and in any case, had Chelsea Clinton done it, then the press would have been delighted

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40561077
Re. Mama Merkel: I guess Team Trump asked "Would it be OK?" and Merkel responded that translate to a diplomatic "Yeah, whatever...". Essentially, to her and the others it's totally irrelevant who actually sits there. It doesn't even have to be a properly confirmed person.

Which should you make pause and think. If true, it means that the current POTUS* is irrelevant to the rest of the most powerful countries. Imagine what they know from intelligence, and what all this implies to the internal state of this 'administration'.
elgarak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2017, 05:43 AM   #110
elgarak
Illuminator
 
elgarak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,352
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The optics are bad, but I agree that Ivanka warning her Dad's seat at a non-critical time isn't a big deal.
If she had opened her mouth, now that would have been a different matter.

But it is clear that Trump believes he's grooming Ivanka for his current job.
I disagree. From my foreign POV, the optics is absolutely disastrous for the state of the WH.
elgarak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2017, 06:27 AM   #111
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 33,330
Originally Posted by elgarak View Post
Re. Mama Merkel: I guess Team Trump asked "Would it be OK?" and Merkel responded that translate to a diplomatic "Yeah, whatever...". Essentially, to her and the others it's totally irrelevant who actually sits there. It doesn't even have to be a properly confirmed person.

Which should you make pause and think. If true, it means that the current POTUS* is irrelevant to the rest of the most powerful countries. Imagine what they know from intelligence, and what all this implies to the internal state of this 'administration'.
Or it means that it's the occupant that matters, not the chair. The other heads of state don't care who sits there, when one of them is out of the room.

This signature is intended to irradiate people.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2017, 07:14 AM   #112
ahhell
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,212
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
She was an individual who 1) was not elected, 2) was not formally appointed (she is just considered "an advisor"), and 3) had no experience or qualifications that would be relevant to the discussions.

While I don't think it would cause a collapse in civilization if she sat in the Orangutan-in-Chief's chair for a few minutes, that doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't a foolish thing.
All of that reminds of Hillary Clinton and the Medical Care debacle in her husbands administration. He put an arkansas lawyer in charge of basically secrete meetings to craft health care legislation. The criticisms were:
1) She was not elected 2) not formally appointed 3) no experience or qualifications that would be relevant to the discussions.

IMHO, this is the seed of the hate for her that exists today. So, perhaps, Ivanka will have the same issue.

Last edited by ahhell; 12th July 2017 at 07:28 AM.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2017, 07:35 AM   #113
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 45,722
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
All of that reminds of Hillary Clinton and the Medical Care debacle in her husbands administration. He put an arkansas lawyer in charge of basically secrete meetings to craft health care legislation. The criticisms were:
1) She was not elected 2) not formally appointed 3) no experience or qualifications that would be relevant to the discussions.

IMHO, this is the seed of the hate for her that exists today. So, perhaps, Ivanka will have the same issue.
Nonsense they hated her long before that, the hate for her goes back to her days as the first lady of Arkansas.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2017, 08:08 AM   #114
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 12,743
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
All of that reminds of Hillary Clinton and the Medical Care debacle in her husbands administration. He put an arkansas lawyer in charge of basically secrete meetings to craft health care legislation. The criticisms were:
1) She was not elected 2) not formally appointed 3) no experience or qualifications that would be relevant to the discussions.
Lets address point #3 by comparing the qualification levels of Hillary Clinton (while working on health care legislation) and Ivanka Trump (at the recent government meetings), shall we?

- Hillary: Law degree (knowledge of law might be considered relevant when dealing with creating legislation)
- Ivanka: BA in business (perhaps would be relevant if she were sitting in on some meeting about economics; less relevant when at a meeting dealing with issues of health)

- Hillary: Extensive exposure to dealing with government programs when bill was gov. (Ok, she wasn't "in charge" but she at least had an insiders view about how legislation gets put together.)
- Ivanka: Was a business person (possibly riding on Daddy's coat tails) who had never worked within governments before

Hillary may have been involved because of her relationship to the president, but she was still fairly qualified.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2017, 08:26 AM   #115
ahhell
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,212
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Lets address point #3 by comparing the qualification levels of Hillary Clinton (while working on health care legislation) and Ivanka Trump (at the recent government meetings), shall we?

- Hillary: Law degree (knowledge of law might be considered relevant when dealing with creating legislation)
- Ivanka: BA in business (perhaps would be relevant if she were sitting in on some meeting about economics; less relevant when at a meeting dealing with issues of health)
Like it or not, economics has at least as much relevance in medical care as law and medicine is a business even in nations with more universal coverage than the US.
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
- Hillary: Extensive exposure to dealing with government programs when bill was gov. (Ok, she wasn't "in charge" but she at least had an insiders view about how legislation gets put together.)
- Ivanka: Was a business person (possibly riding on Daddy's coat tails) who had never worked within governments before

Hillary may have been involved because of her relationship to the president, but she was still fairly qualified.
So that's an argument for nepotism and aristocracy. She was qualified to be in government because she was closely related to someone else who was in government.

@ponderingturtle, who had heard of Hillary or even Bill outside of Arkansas prior to his running for president? A few guest shots on sunday news shows was about has high as his profile got. So sure, "they" hated her while she was in arkansas but "they" were a pretty small group.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2017, 08:40 AM   #116
xjx388
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,877
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Lets address point #3 by comparing the qualification levels of Hillary Clinton (while working on health care legislation) and Ivanka Trump (at the recent government meetings), shall we?

- Hillary: Law degree (knowledge of law might be considered relevant when dealing with creating legislation)
- Ivanka: BA in business (perhaps would be relevant if she were sitting in on some meeting about economics; less relevant when at a meeting dealing with issues of health)

- Hillary: Extensive exposure to dealing with government programs when bill was gov. (Ok, she wasn't "in charge" but she at least had an insiders view about how legislation gets put together.)
- Ivanka: Was a business person (possibly riding on Daddy's coat tails) who had never worked within governments before

Hillary may have been involved because of her relationship to the president, but she was still fairly qualified.
I would love to hear a concise, widely accepted definition of what qualifies someone to serve a role in the government. Of course, "widely accepted," is going to be the sticking point.

I have no problem with political/government newbies serving in the government; I think we need more of that. I remember that Obama had very little experience in the government when he ran for President and, while I certainly didn't agree with most of his positions, he did OK for a Democrat...

As for Ivanka Trump, she's a smart woman who has worked in a major business organization for most of her life. In her various roles, she's had to learn how to deal with the government as a citizen and business person and, really, what else does she need? If we are going to stick only with people who have worked in government, then we are in effect asking for a political class whose values may not align with ours. I would much prefer that our politicians be people who are not career politicians.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2017, 08:57 AM   #117
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,687
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I would love to hear a concise, widely accepted definition of what qualifies someone to serve a role in the government. Of course, "widely accepted," is going to be the sticking point.
A formal selection process would be nice.

President Trump went through a formal selection process. Even though I personally consider him to be woefully unsuitable to be President, enough of the US electorate thought he was suitable for him to win the electoral college.

Members of the cabinet are scrutinised by the Senate, another formal process. Less senior members of the administration (if any are eventually appointed) are subject to formal scrutiny in post.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2017, 09:07 AM   #118
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 11,930
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I would love to hear a concise, widely accepted definition of what qualifies someone to serve a role in the government. Of course, "widely accepted," is going to be the sticking point.

I have no problem with political/government newbies serving in the government; I think we need more of that. I remember that Obama had very little experience in the government when he ran for President and, while I certainly didn't agree with most of his positions, he did OK for a Democrat...

As for Ivanka Trump, she's a smart woman who has worked in a major business organization for most of her life. In her various roles, she's had to learn how to deal with the government as a citizen and business person and, really, what else does she need? If we are going to stick only with people who have worked in government, then we are in effect asking for a political class whose values may not align with ours. I would much prefer that our politicians be people who are not career politicians.
You seem to be conflating “working at the highest level of the government” with “working in the government”.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2017, 09:08 AM   #119
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 12,743
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I have no problem with political/government newbies serving in the government; I think we need more of that.
Trump is a "newbie". Its regularly used as an excuse for his mess-ups.
Quote:
I remember that Obama had very little experience in the government when he ran for President...
Lets see:
- Law degree and experience as a civil rights lawyer (not necessarily "inside the government", but at least provided familiarity with the constitution, something useful to the job of being president.)
- Over half a decade as a state senator (this included serving on several committees)
- U.S. senator for 1 term (where he served on committees for Foreign Relations, public works and the environment)

So, he had been working in government at both the state and federal level for over a decade, as well as exposure to both foreign policy and internal policy matters.
Quote:
As for Ivanka Trump, she's a smart woman...
Is she? Or did she just happen to get lucky being born into the right family?

Maybe she's a super-genius, but we don't really have enough information to go on.
Quote:
...who has worked in a major business organization for most of her life.
She worked for Trump (and, should I remind you, Trump's businesses are far from booming, what with the multiple bankruptcies and other failures.) And she does has her own line of jewelry/clothing, which probably says more about her ability to market herself than it does about her business abilities.
Quote:
If we are going to stick only with people who have worked in government, then we are in effect asking for a political class whose values may not align with ours.
There are multiple levels of government, and the government needs large numbers of civil servants (both long-term and appointed) to function properly. You don't need an isolated "political class", but it doesn't seem to be too extreme to suggest that having some exposure to working within a government framework might be beneficial.

Heck, even if they had no government experience, an educational background in some relevant field would be beneficial.
Quote:
I would much prefer that our politicians be people who are not career politicians.
There are benefits and drawbacks to the "non-politician leader".

There are certain rules (protocols, constitutional power limits, etc.) within government. Your non-politician coming from a non-politics background may have trouble navigating in that environment. They may either propose things that can't be done, or run the risk of falling victim to manipulation.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2017, 09:14 AM   #120
TheL8Elvis
Philosopher
 
TheL8Elvis's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 8,186
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
As for Ivanka Trump, she's a smart woman who has worked in a major business organization for most of her life. In her various roles, she's had to learn how to deal with the government as a citizen and business person and, really, what else does she need? If we are going to stick only with people who have worked in government, then we are in effect asking for a political class whose values may not align with ours. I would much prefer that our politicians be people who are not career politicians.
As for Ivanka TrumpDonald Trump, she's a smart woman who has worked in a major business organization for most of heris life. In her his various roles, she's had to learn how to deal with the government as a citizen and business person and, really, what else does she need?
__________________
"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States...nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov
TheL8Elvis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:36 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.