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Old 7th January 2019, 10:48 AM   #281
JoeMorgue
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I still don't get why people are confusing lols with outrage.
I'm saying (most all of) the "LOLs" are aimed at some hypothetical Republican outrage that doesn't exist, or at least hasn't shown itself yet.

Like I said this whole thing has been "Okay so no Republicans worth talking about are actually bothered by this, but wouldn't it be funny if they were?" and that just seems... pointless and off and sort of baity to me, like people are poking the Republicans with a stick until they get upset about this.
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Last edited by JoeMorgue; 7th January 2019 at 11:03 AM.
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Old 7th January 2019, 10:57 AM   #282
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I think people are confusing the Republicans with John Lithgow's character in Footloose.
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Old 7th January 2019, 10:59 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
This dancing video thing is definitely a tempest in a teapot, but there is a larger narrative being addressed in this thread that is certainly worthy of discussion.
I'm uncertain what is actually worth discussing here. Granted, I'm still discussing it but I think that says more about me than the subject in question.

Seriously though, what is the larger narrative? Other than "haters gonna hate haters who gonna hate........."
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I still don't get why people are confusing lols with outrage. Are we to believe that there is outrage over Fiji Water Girl?
Who's loling at who? This "controversy" seems to be a bunch of people loling at replickers outraged over AOC dancing. When it really just looks like one random dude on the internet who appears to care about it at all. Like many supposed controversies these days, I find myself more confused and befuddled about why anyone cares than loling or frothing at the mouth.

Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
I think people are confusing the Republicans with John Lithgow's character in Footloose.
To be fair, its often an understandable confusion, depending on the Republican. The real problem is that people seem to confuse Mitt Romney with Steve King, who is a caricature of John Lithgow's character from Footloose.

Last edited by ahhell; 7th January 2019 at 11:05 AM.
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Old 7th January 2019, 11:07 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I did read someone making an interesting point - this is going to become the new normal as new people enter politics. Younger people have grown up in a world of the internet and cheap video cameras and smartphones. It's not at all surprising that there is a YouTube video featuring a 29 year-old.

Expect to see more of this kind of thing in the future.
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I think it's great that there is going to be more evidence of members of Congress actually having had pure, harmless fun at some point in their lives and who might even still be young enough to remember it when they take office.
I can even foresee it becoming so common that a lack of such pictures & videos will be seen as a bit odd, as if meaning they're trying to hide something, and some will feel as if they need to put something out there themselves just to prove they weren't a recluse/loser.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
When I first read the headline for this story, I thought for sure some right wing troll dug up a cell phone video of AOC drunkenly dancing at some grimy college house party.
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Returning briefly to the thread title: don't clickbait, yo. I had the lights dimmed in preparation.
The kinds of videos you two are talking about will also get more common and more apathy-inducing, for the same reasons as the above. The easier it is to be on video dancing, the easier it is to be on video doing other things too. And men in particular, at least if they have political aspirations, will have extra incentive to record themselves even if they wouldn't want to otherwise, not only to establish that they weren't losers as mentioned above, but also to establish that sex was mutual, in case of subsequent accusations.
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Old 7th January 2019, 11:13 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
It's a lovely sentiment - the Robin Hood legends as currently promulgated with "Evil Prince John" as the greedy taxer in chief, John is trying to raise money to get rid of his absentee brother. Richard was away from England because on his return from the Crusade he was imprisoned by the Archduke of Austria for insulting the Archduke. John was imposing those taxes to pay the ransom imposed by the Austrians for the release of King Richard - ie. if he wanted the throne, all he had to do was tell Austria, "We're not going to pay ransom." Since John was Richard's designated Regent until his return to Plangenet lands (either England or Aquitaine), he didn't need the support of anyone to act like the King - for all intents and purposes he WAS the king.

Robby was making it harder for the legitimate government (ie. John the Prince Regent) to carry out the functions of government (in this case securing the return of the actual head of state) and increasing the burden on others. In addition to impeding the flow of goods in Nottinghamshire and ruing in trade.

Robin Hood (as the legend is currently told) is a common crook with good PR. The modern equivalent would be John Dillinger or Bonnie and Clyde who were only hurting the banks...
Monarchy is not legitimate.
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Old 7th January 2019, 11:23 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm really starting to hate the term "narrative."

Reality does not have a separate story being told on top of it.

So basically "Well no, no actual Republican in any sort of positions of power or influence has said anything yet about the AOC dancing video... but doesn't it just seem like the sort of thing they'd get upset about? Can't you just... imagine them doing it?"

And again eventually the "I bet there's some outrage somewhere I just have to find it" will create outrage and the whole thing will be a self fulfilling prophecy.
There is no story being told on top of reality.

The larger narrative being discussed is the one about the Right’s obsession and hypocrisy in regard to Ocasio-Cortez.

This is occurring very much in reality.

Watch the video linked earlier in this thread in which she is booed in Congress.

Read the article linked in the post immediately after yours in which a major conservative media outlet breaks the earth-shattering story that she went by “Sandy” in high school.

Or just take a look at this article. Note it was published months before she even took office.

And then take a look at the criticisms being leveled at her and remember that they’re coming from people who defend Donald Trump. There’s actually some nice examples in this very thread.

The dancing video issue specifically isn’t much to talk about, but the larger issue of which it is part definitely is.
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Old 7th January 2019, 11:30 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
The stupidest man on the internet is on the case of "common nicknames for Alexandria." It's really telling that in the age of Trump that's an outlet that gets White House press credentials.
Man, Gateway “we totally got a sex scandal with Mueller for sursies” Pundit sure likes falling flat on its face of late, doesn’t it?
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Old 7th January 2019, 11:31 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
The larger narrative being discussed is the one about the Right’s obsession and hypocrisy in regard to Ocasio-Cortez.
So please explain to me what part of this "narrative" one random anonymous Twitter user is?

"Republicans have launched political attacks on her and this one random, anonymous Twitter user that we have zero idea about his social or political ideology posts an old video of her dancing with a snarky comment about it! IT'S ALL LINKED!"

This "Republicans are out to get her, so everything said negative about her in any context is about that" is a stretch.
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Old 7th January 2019, 11:31 AM   #289
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Old 7th January 2019, 11:41 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Monarchy is not legitimate.
Sure Jan.
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Old 7th January 2019, 11:53 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Monarchy is not legitimate.
If people accept it as legitimate, it's legitimate.

Just like every other form of government.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.
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Old 7th January 2019, 12:07 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
The stupidest man on the internet is on the case of "common nicknames for Alexandria." It's really telling that in the age of Trump that's an outlet that gets White House press credentials.
The trouble with "Sandy": Trump fans love their con man, but think lefties are fake

Quote:
Because Ocasio-Cortez no longer uses her childhood nickname, Hoft accused her of being one of many "Democrat hoaxers." Also included in this alleged group is Beto O'Rourke, who is thus accused for keeping his childhood nickname.

Note that there's no way to win this game. No matter what approach one takes to a childhood nickname — losing it or keeping it — the right will hold it out as "proof" that a Democrat is an imposter. That's because these trolls are operating from a foreordained conclusion, which is all Democrats or liberals or progressives are a pack of phonies. All evidence, no matter how trivial silly, is reverse-engineered to fit this conclusion.
Quote:
But Hoft, who is a honking moron in most regards, knows what he's doing. As my colleague Andrew O'Hehir observed over the weekend, with regards to the Beltway pearl-clutching over Rep. Rashida Tlaib calling Trump a "************," there's "no way to separate the exaggerated reaction to Tlaib’s remarks from the fact that her presence on Capitol Hill, and even her existence as an American citizen, pushes people’s buttons."
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Old 7th January 2019, 12:14 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I still don't get why people are confusing lols with outrage. Are we to believe that there is outrage over Fiji Water Girl?
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
I think people are confusing the Republicans with John Lithgow's character in Footloose.
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
There is no story being told on top of reality.

The larger narrative being discussed is the one about the Right’s obsession and hypocrisy in regard to Ocasio-Cortez.

This is occurring very much in reality.

Watch the video linked earlier in this thread in which she is booed in Congress.

Read the article linked in the post immediately after yours in which a major conservative media outlet breaks the earth-shattering story that she went by “Sandy” in high school.

Or just take a look at this article. Note it was published months before she even took office.

And then take a look at the criticisms being leveled at her and remember that they’re coming from people who defend Donald Trump. There’s actually some nice examples in this very thread.

The dancing video issue specifically isn’t much to talk about, but the larger issue of which it is part definitely is.
At the risk of being inflammatory, I'm reminded of the blanking while black threads. Racism is definitely a thing with impact in America but most of the blanking while black threads aren't particularly compelling examples of it. The rights obsession with AOC(something I'm not quite ready to concede) may be a real thing, this is a particularly uncompelling example of it. It seems to more of an example of "the lefts" obsession with "the rights" obsession.

Aside from that, it totally makes sense for the right wing media to flog stories about AOC, she's good looking so the click bait is easy and she's pretty far on the left of the Dems, it makes it easy to paint all dems as far to the left. Same is true of Warren, she's just not as good looking and she's been around longer. AOC is proof(in their eyes) of the radical shift to the left the Dems are taking.

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Old 7th January 2019, 12:14 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
There are too many specific things, so much of what she says is either crazy or nonsensical. Well maybe not everything, but here are a few...

This doesn't even make sense:


Policy: She wants the country to be 100% green energy by 2030. No fossil fuels.


???


Wrong. 34,000 beds must be provided, that is all.

Policy: abolish ICE. And no, ICE does not operate under Homeland Security, but easy mistake to make.

Really dude, I could break this forum with her stupid quotes and policy ideas.

Sorry for not providing quotes before but I think it's pointless here at this forum. I didn't try very hard with the ones above but again, after 15 years or more at this forum, I'm over it I guess.

Now your turn - show me the genius that is Ocasio-Cortez. What great policies is she working on? 70% tax on the rich? What has she got going for her?
Isn't most of that just typical dumb lefty stuff these days? I don't see how she is particulary bad to the agree you seem to think.
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Old 7th January 2019, 12:27 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So please explain to me what part of this "narrative" one random anonymous Twitter user is?

"Republicans have launched political attacks on her and this one random, anonymous Twitter user that we have zero idea about his social or political ideology posts an old video of her dancing with a snarky comment about it! IT'S ALL LINKED!"

This "Republicans are out to get her, so everything said negative about her in any context is about that" is a stretch.
I've already conceded that the dancing video thing is being blown out of proportion. I don't think it requires further explanation.
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Old 7th January 2019, 12:31 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
At the risk of being inflammatory, I'm reminded of the blanking while black threads. Racism is definitely a thing with impact in America but most of the blanking while black threads aren't particularly compelling examples of it. The rights obsession with AOC(something I'm not quite ready to concede) may be a real thing, this is a particularly uncompelling example of it. It seems to more of an example of "the lefts" obsession with "the rights" obsession.

Aside from that, it totally makes sense for the right wing media to flog stories about AOC, she's good looking so the click bait is easy and she's pretty far on the left of the Dems, it makes it easy to paint all dems as far to the left. Same is true of Warren, she's just not as good looking and she's been around longer. AOC is proof(in their eyes) of the radical shift to the left the Dems are taking.
Evidence of the obsession - and the underlying hypocrisy - have been provided. Most notably in the very post of mine that you just quoted.

Whether or not you choose to look at it or accept it is entirely up to you.
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Old 7th January 2019, 12:38 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Isn't most of that just typical dumb lefty stuff these days? I don't see how she is particulary bad to the agree you seem to think.
So you think the goal of getting the US off fossil fuels is a dumb idea? What? Are you heavily invested in fossil fuel stocks?

Abolishing ICE is not " just typical dumb lefty stuff". The vast majority (75%) of Democrats do not support abolishing ICE.

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...to-abolish-ice
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Old 7th January 2019, 12:52 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Evidence of the obsession - and the underlying hypocrisy - have been provided. Most notably in the very post of mine that you just quoted.

Whether or not you choose to look at it or accept it is entirely up to you.
A Vox article regarding the rights obsession? Also, even if they are obsessed, what's teh underlying hypocrisy? Painting your opponents as dangerous radicals? That's just politics.
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Old 7th January 2019, 12:59 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Monarchy is not legitimate.
Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
If people accept it as legitimate, it's legitimate.

Just like every other form of government.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.
The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. THAT is why I am your king.

Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

You can't expect to exercise supreme executive power just because a watery tart threw a sword at you.

Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away.
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Old 7th January 2019, 01:02 PM   #300
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Quote:
The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. THAT is why I am your king.

Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

You can't expect to exercise supreme executive power just because a watery tart threw a sword at you.

Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away.

Help I'm being repressed
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Old 7th January 2019, 01:11 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Help I'm being repressed
Come and see the violence inherent in the system!
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Old 7th January 2019, 01:13 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Help I'm being repressed
Be Quiet!
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Old 7th January 2019, 01:14 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Come and see the violence inherent in the system!
I said 'BE QUIET!'
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Old 7th January 2019, 01:17 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
A sourced Vox article regarding the rights obsession?
Yes, with the added modifier.

Quote:
Also, even if they are obsessed, what's teh underlying hypocrisy? Painting your opponents as dangerous radicals? That's just politics.
The underlying hypocrisy has been demonstrated in this thread.

I don’t feel a particular inclination to offer a synopsis of the discussion or convince you of anything.

The information and evidence have been provided. Do with it what you will.
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Old 7th January 2019, 01:20 PM   #305
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This bullcrap "Oh you said something about X but didn't say anything about Y" whataboutism version of Hypocrisy is really killing political discourse at a time we really need to not be killing political discourse.

Yes politics make people give slack to members of their own tribe and give no slack to members of the other tribe. Everybody knows that. Pointing it out again and again every time it happens accomplishes absolutely nothing.
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Old 7th January 2019, 01:23 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This bullcrap "Oh you said something about X but didn't say anything about Y" whataboutism version of Hypocrisy is really killing political discourse at a time we really need to not be killing political discourse.

Yes politics make people give slack to members of their own tribe and give no slack to members of the other tribe. Everybody knows that. Pointing it out again and again every time it happens accomplishes absolutely nothing.
Okay then.
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Old 7th January 2019, 01:23 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Remember when Trump lied about how wealthy he was by falsely claiming his father's property as his own just so he could get on the Forbes 400 list? That is the kind of mentality you're talking about.

The clearest explanation so far for the right-wing view:
Quote:
Republicans find that analysis appalling, because for them, the top marginal rate is a deeply moral issue. Setting the rate that high would be simply wrong, not because it means Jamie Dimon would decide to forgo the car elevator when he builds his third vacation home if his taxes were higher (he probably wouldn’t), but because it just is. Wealth is a sign of virtue, and taxing those who have proved their virtue by being rich is abhorrent.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...?noredirect=on

And maybe ACO really isn't so crazy (also from above):
Quote:
What Ocasio-Cortez is suggesting, and many liberals support, is setting a series of higher tax rates at the top end of the scale. You could keep the existing brackets, which top out at 37 percent for those making more than $510,300. But then you could add new brackets, say 50 percent for income over $1 million, 60 percent for income over $5 million and 70 percent for income over $10 million.
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Old 7th January 2019, 01:35 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Man, Gateway “we totally got a sex scandal with Mueller for sursies” Pundit sure likes falling flat on its face of late, doesn’t it?
Of late!? It's their raison d'etre. It used to be a kook conspiracy theory blog but thanks to the conspiracy theory nutter in chief it's gone mainstream.
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Old 7th January 2019, 01:37 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I said 'BE QUIET!'
I am such a bloody peasant!
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On 05 FEB 2019, President Donald Trump said in his Sate of the Union Address: "If there is going to be peace and legislation, there cannot be war and investigation."
On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool."
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Old 7th January 2019, 01:57 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
I am such a bloody peasant!
Monet: The people are revolting.

King: You can say that again. They stink on ice.

Monet: The peasants think you have no regard for them

King: What? I have no regard for the people? They are my people. I am their soverign.
I love them......Pull.
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Old 7th January 2019, 01:58 PM   #311
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Quintus: People should know when they are conquered.
Maximus: Would you, Quintus? Would I?
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Old 7th January 2019, 02:02 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
The stupidest man on the internet is on the case of "common nicknames for Alexandria." It's really telling that in the age of Trump that's an outlet that gets White House press credentials.
It's not even that hard to work out...

Alexandria -> Xandra -> Sandra -> Sandy
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Old 7th January 2019, 02:10 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It was just a few years ago that I saw a group photo of the 100 member Senate, and it was 100% white men. That was a stunning realization.
Was it a black and white photo? There have been women and persons of color in the Senate for quite some time now. There are 25 women Senators as we speak.

Last edited by carlitos; 7th January 2019 at 02:13 PM. Reason: 25 not 23...
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Old 7th January 2019, 02:12 PM   #314
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More on those tax rates:
Quote:
Historically, the United States used to have many more tax brackets, and the top marginal tax rates were extremely high. Under Eisenhower, the top earners paid a 91 percent marginal rate, falling to Ocasio-Cortez’s proposed 70 percent under Kennedy and Johnson, before falling to 50 percent after Ronald Reagan’s first big tax cut, and then down to 38 percent after the 1986 tax reform.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...tez-70-percent
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Old 7th January 2019, 02:15 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Was it a black and white photo? There have been women and persons of color in the Senate for quite some time now. There are 25 women Senators as we speak.
Lisa: "That's right! A girl wants to play football. How about that!"
Flanders: "That's superduper Lisa. In fact we've already got four girls on the team!"
Lisa: *Crestfallen* "You do?"
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- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
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Old 7th January 2019, 02:35 PM   #316
Giordano
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Lisa: "That's right! A girl wants to play football. How about that!"
Flanders: "That's superduper Lisa. In fact we've already got four girls on the team!"
Lisa: *Crestfallen* "You do?"
To be fair though it is easy to think of the Senate as a boy's club until recently. The US Senate went for 130 years with no women at all. It took until 1932 for Hattie Caraway to become the first elected woman Senator (I am ignoring Rebecca Felton, who served only one day in 1922). Even that was not an un-reversible trend until even more recently: the presence of a woman in the Senate only became a constant after 1978, and the numbers were very low (one or a few) up until very recently. Compare those numbers versus the percent women in the overall population (slightly over 50%).
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Old 7th January 2019, 02:46 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This bullcrap "Oh you said something about X but didn't say anything about Y" whataboutism version of Hypocrisy is really killing political discourse at a time we really need to not be killing political discourse.

Yes politics make people give slack to members of their own tribe and give no slack to members of the other tribe. Everybody knows that. Pointing it out again and again every time it happens accomplishes absolutely nothing.
And of course if is always the other guy who is guilty of tribalism......
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Old 7th January 2019, 02:56 PM   #318
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It was just a few years ago that I saw a group photo of the 100 member Senate, and it was 100% white men. That was a stunning realization.
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Was it a black and white photo? There have been women and persons of color in the Senate for quite some time now. There are 25 women Senators as we speak.
Thermal can probably be forgiven. There really has been few women senators or people of color in the US Senate even though the 100 percent figure is unlikely.

The last time there was no women in the Senate was 1976 and before that the vast majority of women who served out the terms of spouses who were Senators. More placeholders than anything. That there are today 25 women senators is staggering.

Here are two links about women and ethnic diversity in the US Senate.

https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory...n_senators.htm

https://www.senate.gov/senators/Ethn...ntheSenate.htm

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Last edited by acbytesla; 7th January 2019 at 03:03 PM.
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Old 7th January 2019, 03:04 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So please explain to me what part of this "narrative" one random anonymous Twitter user is?

"Republicans have launched political attacks on her and this one random, anonymous Twitter user that we have zero idea about his social or political ideology posts an old video of her dancing with a snarky comment about it! IT'S ALL LINKED!"...
Qanon. WWG1WGA. Which means it's being disseminated throughout Trump's base. I agree that "higher level" conservatives probably aren't in the loop currently, but that doesn't mean a more palatable version will bubble up from the ether in the future and be a mainstream talking point.
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Old 7th January 2019, 03:15 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The clearest explanation so far for the right-wing view:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...?noredirect=on

And maybe ACO really isn't so crazy (also from above):
Her cool nickname is AOC not ACO. Maybe she's not crazy, but Waldman is if he thinks Republicans believe wealth is synonymous with virtue.

Personally, I would be happy to go along with higher taxes on the wealthy. Republicans have boxed themselves in on this issue. Because they believe that tax increases are wrong (not morally, but economically), they have protected lots of wealthy people who turn around and vote their socially liberal consciences. If the liberal rich started having to actually pay higher taxes as a result of voting Democratic, they might think twice about it.

As for AOC, she's a twit who clearly doesn't understand how to get things done (or basic economics). That said, I certainly didn't see anything shocking in the video.
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