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Old 27th March 2019, 12:18 PM   #41
Belz...
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Jeez, you just can't sneak anything by anybody anymore, can you ?
I know you did that deliberately to test your audience!
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Old 27th March 2019, 12:23 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
How blatantly untrue it is in the face of strong evidence to the contrary.

There were conflicting reports on Saddam's arsenal and Bush, Cheney and let the warhawk in them lead. I mean it was like the assault on the bin Laden compound, only Obama didn't make it public until after the fact.
Some people just can't let go of the WMD lie, but that's another topic.

Swift Boat Veterans for Truth was another lying organization out to falsely trash a war veteran.
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Old 27th March 2019, 12:40 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I know you did that deliberately to test your audience!
Busted

I did, it was a brown M&Ms removed kind of post.
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Old 29th March 2019, 05:08 PM   #44
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I used a private email server for convenience.

The attack on the consulate in benghazi grew out of protests outside the facility.
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Old 29th March 2019, 05:22 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I used a private email server for convenience.

The attack on the consulate in benghazi grew out of protests outside the facility.
You think that was the biggest lie?
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Old 29th March 2019, 05:30 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I'd agree with this.

And if it needs to be a single statement, I'd nominate:

"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness"

To lead your declaration with that and then own people for almost three quarters of a century afterwards has the be the most blantant lie, the most consequential and the most central to the heart of our country.
I don't think that was a lie. That we failed to live up to that creed is highly disappointing though.
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Old 29th March 2019, 05:35 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I used a private email server for convenience.

The attack on the consulate in benghazi grew out of protests outside the facility.
Not only weren't they not the biggest lies, they were'nt lies at all.

How about the meeting was about adoption?
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Old 29th March 2019, 08:09 PM   #48
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"American citizens of Japanese ancestry are a security threat." Executive Order 9066.
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Old 29th March 2019, 08:10 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
"American citizens of Japanese ancestry are a security threat." Executive Order 9066.
What made it political? What made it a lie?
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Old 29th March 2019, 08:17 PM   #50
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Has anyone nominated "I did not have sex with that woman" yet? Because that lie got a president impeached. Hard to imagine a bigger political result than that.

But I'd actually nominate Roosevelt's sneaking an isolationist America into World War 2 by gradual degrees. Bait and switch. Miles for inches. Forgiveness in place of permission. Roosevelt used every political trick in the book, to get the US in on the biggest event in world history, and on the right side of history to boot. I don't think there's a bigger political lie than that, in all of American history.
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Old 29th March 2019, 10:28 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
But I'd actually nominate Roosevelt's sneaking an isolationist America into World War 2
Or perhaps that is the biggest lie.

American Isolationism in the 1930s
Quote:
In the wake of the World War I, a report by Senator Gerald P. Nye, a Republican from North Dakota, fed this belief by claiming that American bankers and arms manufacturers had pushed for U.S. involvement for their own profit. The 1934 publication of the book Merchants of Death by H.C. Engelbrecht and F. C. Hanighen, followed by the 1935 tract “War Is a Racket” by decorated Marine Corps General Smedley D. Butler both served to increase popular suspicions of wartime profiteering and influence public opinion in the direction of neutrality.

Immediately following the First World War, Congress rejected U.S. membership in the League of Nations. Some members of Congress opposed membership in the League out of concern that it would draw the United States into European conflicts, although ultimately the collective security clause sank the possibility of U.S. participation. During the 1930s, the League proved ineffectual in the face of growing militarism, partly due to the U.S. decision not to participate.


In 1933, President Roosevelt proposed a Congressional measure that would have granted him the right to consult with other nations to place pressure on aggressors in international conflicts. The bill ran into strong opposition from the leading isolationists in Congress...

As tensions rose in Europe over Nazi Germany’s aggressive maneuvers, Congress pushed through a series of Neutrality Acts, which served to prevent American ships and citizens from becoming entangled in outside conflicts. Roosevelt lamented the restrictive nature of the acts, but because he still required Congressional support for his domestic New Deal policies, he reluctantly acquiesced.

The surprise Japanese attack on the U.S. Navy at Pearl Harbor in December of 1941 served to convince the majority of Americans that the United States should enter the war on the side of the Allies.
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Old 29th March 2019, 10:37 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Has anyone nominated "I did not have sex with that woman" yet? Because that lie got a president impeached. Hard to imagine a bigger political result than that.
Yes. The second item on the list in the opening post.
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Old 29th March 2019, 10:54 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What made it political? What made it a lie?
Are you serious? OMG!
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Old 29th March 2019, 10:57 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Has anyone nominated "I did not have sex with that woman" yet? Because that lie got a president impeached. Hard to imagine a bigger political result than that.
Wow! Another trivial reference to the Clintons.


Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
But I'd actually nominate Roosevelt's sneaking an isolationist America into World War 2 by gradual degrees. Bait and switch. Miles for inches. Forgiveness in place of permission. Roosevelt used every political trick in the book, to get the US in on the biggest event in world history, and on the right side of history to boot. I don't think there's a bigger political lie than that, in all of American history.
So you think the US shouldn't have joined in with WWII allies?

Is that before or after Pearl Harbor?
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Old 29th March 2019, 11:00 PM   #55
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Let's see, my suggestion of the bad-faith treaties with the Native Americans led to mass slaughter and genocide. Clinton's lie to cover up an affair with Lewinsky led to...??? It didn't even break up his own marriage, much less kill anybody. Yeah, totally equivalent things. Gotta pwn them libs, eh?
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Old 29th March 2019, 11:28 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Let's see, my suggestion of the bad-faith treaties with the Native Americans led to mass slaughter and genocide.
That's a good one I never thought of.
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Old 30th March 2019, 05:48 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Are you serious? OMG!
Yes. A lie is a specific kind of claim. It's not the same as simply being wrong.
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Old 30th March 2019, 06:08 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Wow! Another trivial reference to the Clintons.


So you think the US shouldn't have joined in with WWII allies?

Is that before or after Pearl Harbor?
I do not.
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Old 30th March 2019, 07:38 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Has anyone nominated "I did not have sex with that woman" yet? Because that lie got a president impeached. Hard to imagine a bigger political result than that.

But I'd actually nominate Roosevelt's sneaking an isolationist America into World War 2 by gradual degrees. Bait and switch. Miles for inches. Forgiveness in place of permission. Roosevelt used every political trick in the book, to get the US in on the biggest event in world history, and on the right side of history to boot. I don't think there's a bigger political lie than that, in all of American history.
I'm not sure what you're talking about with Roosevelt. What was (were) the precise lie(s) he told?

I'm not saying you're wrong, but as you said, a lie is a particular kind of claim, not devious behavior, so I'm not sure what you mean here.
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Old 30th March 2019, 08:36 AM   #60
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The sonic, microwave (whatever) attack on U.S. 'diplomats' in Havana:

Quote:
“I do believe Cuba’s responsible. I do believe that,” Trump said in a Rose Garden news conference. “And it’s a very unusual attack, as you know. But I do believe Cuba is responsible.”
Trump says Cuba 'responsible' for alleged sonic attacks, but offers no evidence (Guardian, Oct. 16, 2017)

They've now been elaborating on the lie for years, with a lot of support from the otherwise scorned fake news, and they still can't even make up their minds about what is supposed to have attacked them. And unlike the WMDs, the actual attack has allegedly already taken place.
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Old 30th March 2019, 08:45 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't think that was a lie. That we failed to live up to that creed is highly disappointing though.
People signed that document and then went home to their slaves.
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Old 30th March 2019, 09:33 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Has anyone nominated "I did not have sex with that woman" yet? Because that lie got a president impeached. Hard to imagine a bigger political result than that.
While that was a clear whopper, the impeachment carried little effect. Not much political result at all, other than a trophy to hold up.

Quote:
But I'd actually nominate Roosevelt's sneaking an isolationist America into World War 2 by gradual degrees. Bait and switch. Miles for inches. Forgiveness in place of permission. Roosevelt used every political trick in the book, to get the US in on the biggest event in world history, and on the right side of history to boot. I don't think there's a bigger political lie than that, in all of American history.
Maybe not outright lying, but yes, a lot of manipulation. In terms of lying to political ends, I would rate the Maine and Tonkin incidents higher.
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Old 30th March 2019, 10:45 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
The Lost Cause.

Yes, The Lost Cause (Wikipedia) is a big one, but isn't it the American way of handling any disgraceful defeat? Like the Vietnam War, for instance ...
We may have killed hundreds of thousands of Southeast Asians, but we comfort ourselves with the idea that U.S. soldiers died valiantly for a noble cause.
And not only the Vietnam War:
When I watched Fahrenheit 9/11 (Wikipedia), it surprised me that even Michael Moore ends up praising the noble intentions of the troops even though he has already shown that there's nothing noble at all about their motives when they are recruited.
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Old 30th March 2019, 11:40 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I used a private email server for convenience.

The attack on the consulate in benghazi grew out of protests outside the facility.
Pretty obvious these belong on the list because people still believe them....
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Old 30th March 2019, 11:51 AM   #65
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One of the more successful ones is Trickle Down Economics, feeding deficits and enriching the rich for nearly 40 years now.
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Old 30th March 2019, 12:00 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
One of the more successful ones is Trickle Down Economics, feeding deficits and enriching the rich for nearly 40 years now.
Hesitate to call that a lie.
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Old 30th March 2019, 12:12 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I've never been convinced that it was a lie, as I think the Bush Administration people believed it when they said it. Sure, they indulged in a lot of cherry picking, ignoring evidence that contradicted their beliefs, and embracing questionable evidence that supported them, but, I think they genuinely believed that Iran had WMD's when they were pushing for the invasion. I also think they truly believed that once they got rid of Saddam, occupying Iran would be a piece of cake. They were, of course completely wrong in both beliefs.
Iraq. The Iran lie has not been pushed too hard so far.
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Old 30th March 2019, 12:14 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Pretty obvious these belong on the list because people still believe them....
6 years of investigations and didn't disprove either one. Amazing.
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Old 30th March 2019, 12:21 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Has anyone nominated "I did not have sex with that woman" yet? Because that lie got a president impeached. Hard to imagine a bigger political result than that.
Yes, someone mentioned it. The net result was pretty much zero. When Trump lies about his sex life, it's just peachy.

But then he wasn't under oath.

ETA: A couple of fallacies: I have indulged in what-aboutism, you have used an argument from incredulity.

ETA2: Maybe it's not a fallacy when the thread title actually invites comparison. I'd go with the first line of the Declaration of Independence. I believe the authors wanted it to be true. I suppose it's possible that they really believed all men were created equal, but they knew damn well they weren't honoring that belief.

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Old 30th March 2019, 01:22 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post

ETA2: Maybe it's not a fallacy when the thread title actually invites comparison. I'd go with the first line of the Declaration of Independence. I believe the authors wanted it to be true. I suppose it's possible that they really believed all men were created equal, but they knew damn well they weren't honoring that belief.
I can't say that line was a lie.

Jefferson, Adams and Franklin certainly meant it. And keep in mind that the Declaration of Independence wasn't a governing document, but a declaration of war. No doubt, that the nation failed to live up to the creed they wrote. It should be noted, that almost from the day this nation was born, slavery was the most contentious issue threatening the nation's unity and we fought a very bloody war four score hence in the attempt to live up to that aspiration.
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Old 30th March 2019, 01:31 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Pretty obvious these belong on the list because people still believe them....
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
6 years of investigations and didn't disprove either one. Amazing.
See what I mean folks?
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Old 30th March 2019, 01:34 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I can't say that line was a lie.

Jefferson, Adams and Franklin certainly meant it. And keep in mind that the Declaration of Independence wasn't a governing document, but a declaration of war. No doubt, that the nation failed to live up to the creed they wrote. It should be noted, that almost from the day this nation was born, slavery was the most contentious issue threatening the nation's unity and we fought a very bloody war four score hence in the attempt to live up to that aspiration.
Technically, I can call it not a lie. Maybe they did hold such truths to be self-evident, but I also believe they knew they were being inconsistent, and that the contradiction would have to be resolved at some point.
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Old 30th March 2019, 02:41 PM   #73
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One must also remember that when the Founding Fathers wrote "All men are created equal" they were strictly referring white men. The accepted thinking of the time did not include women nor did it include men of color. Being anti-slavery did not necessarily mean accepting people of color as social equals.
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Old 30th March 2019, 02:48 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
See what I mean folks?
Your criteria for how big a lie is, is the fact people believe it?
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Old 30th March 2019, 03:14 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Your criteria for how big a lie is, is the fact people believe it?
No, the fact that people believe it today despite being proven false repeatedly and being an overwhelming reason that Trump is president of the United States.
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Old 30th March 2019, 04:35 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Iraq. The Iran lie has not been pushed too hard so far.
Opps. I meant Iraq, even though I typed Iran.
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Old 30th March 2019, 04:42 PM   #77
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The whole Spanish American War.

MTBE being safe to put in your gas tank.
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Old 30th March 2019, 04:50 PM   #78
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Quote:
I wondered The most enduring?
...one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all...
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Old 30th March 2019, 04:53 PM   #79
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I think one of the biggest lies is the lie that the Iraq War was just about oil or that the WMD narrative was made up. It was a convenient borderline conspiracy theory pushed by Bush opponents for the anti-war effort. You can't fit the timeline and all the little nuances on a protest poster though.
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Old 30th March 2019, 04:57 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
...one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all...
Touché.
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