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Old 30th March 2019, 06:11 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
...one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all...
There is probably nothing more offensive to me than the pledge of allegiance. Especially after the GOP twisted the words to it.
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Old 30th March 2019, 06:42 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
While that was a clear whopper, the impeachment carried little effect. Not much political result at all, other than a trophy to hold up.
A genuine nothingburger.
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Old 30th March 2019, 06:45 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
The sonic, microwave (whatever) attack on U.S. 'diplomats' in Havana ...
Doesn't really match up to the USS Maine "attack", does it?
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Old 30th March 2019, 06:51 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So you think the US shouldn't have joined in with WWII allies?
The US had no WW2 allies (aka "foreign entanglements") before it was dragged into the conflict by Japan and Germany.
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Old 30th March 2019, 06:57 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
The US had no WW2 allies (aka "foreign entanglements") before it was dragged into the conflict by Japan and Germany.
Yeah, totally neutral before that.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease
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Old 30th March 2019, 06:59 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
The US had no WW2 allies (aka "foreign entanglements") before it was dragged into the conflict by Japan and Germany.
Even without any official declaration, I believe "allies" was an acceptable term.
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Old 30th March 2019, 07:02 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
The US had no WW2 allies (aka "foreign entanglements") before it was dragged into the conflict by Japan and Germany.
Are you (or anyone else) still claiming we should not have entered WWII?

I'm sorry but I for one am glad we don't have the German Union ruling all of the EU and the UK so I'm confused what opinion you are espousing.
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Old 30th March 2019, 07:07 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
How blatantly untrue it is in the face of strong evidence to the contrary.

There were conflicting reports on Saddam's arsenal and Bush, Cheney and let the warhawk in them lead. I mean it was like the assault on the bin Laden compound, only Obama didn't make it public until after the fact.
The big lie there was Iraq's involvement in 9/11. WMD's in themselves had failed to provide sufficient cause, perhaps because of an earlier lie that Iraq's use of chemical weapons against Iran was debatable.


"Oh what a tangled web we weave ..."
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Old 30th March 2019, 07:11 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
The US had no WW2 allies (aka "foreign entanglements") before it was dragged into the conflict by Japan and Germany.
There was China. Well before Pearl Harbor we were supplying China with modern aircraft, and ground and aircrew personnel. Robert McCauley Short was the first American pilot in combat in WW-II, November 1932. (That September 1939 thing is so Eurocentric!)
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Old 30th March 2019, 07:19 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Are you (or anyone else) still claiming we should not have entered WWII?
I'm just drawing attention to a founding principle of the US, which is to eschew alliances, otherwise known as "foreign entanglements". Isolationism is baked into the national identity - the NATO period is (or perhaps was) an aberration.


Quote:
I'm sorry but I for one am glad we don't have the German Union ruling all of the EU and the UK so I'm confused what opinion you are espousing.
It's my opinion that Canadians made a magnificent contribution to the defeat of Germany in the North Atlantic, one which goes largely unrecognised.
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Old 30th March 2019, 07:25 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
The big lie there was Iraq's involvement in 9/11. WMD's in themselves had failed to provide sufficient cause, perhaps because of an earlier lie that Iraq's use of chemical weapons against Iran was debatable.


"Oh what a tangled web we weave ..."
I'm pretty sure nobody ever claimed Iraq was involved in 9/11.
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Old 30th March 2019, 07:34 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm pretty sure nobody ever claimed Iraq was involved in 9/11.
Is that meant to be sarcasm?
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Old 30th March 2019, 07:36 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
There was China. Well before Pearl Harbor we were supplying China with modern aircraft, and ground and aircrew personnel.
Robert McCauley Short was the first American pilot in combat in WW-II, November 1932. (That September 1939 thing is so Eurocentric!)
WW2 is white-people centric, don't you think? The Sino-Japanese war before Pearl Harbour isn't normally included, and the US wasn't allied with China.


The Pacific conflict between the US and Japan was actually one thing while the North Atlantic conflict was a quite separate thing. They just happened to overlap between 1941 and '45.
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Old 30th March 2019, 07:37 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm pretty sure nobody ever claimed Iraq was involved in 9/11.
Pretty sure? Not even Dick Cheney, who took to the stump selling the Iraqi/Prague/Ata connection as early as Sept 14, 2001?
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Old 30th March 2019, 07:37 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm pretty sure nobody ever claimed Iraq was involved in 9/11.
How young are you?
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Old 30th March 2019, 07:37 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
The big lie there was Iraq's involvement in 9/11. WMD's in themselves had failed to provide sufficient cause, perhaps because of an earlier lie that Iraq's use of chemical weapons against Iran was debatable.


"Oh what a tangled web we weave ..."
Who said Iraq was involved in 9/11 though? Yeah a lot of people believed that mass hysteria.
But it appears to have been oversimplified speculation, as is often the case, by Bush and his crew after hearing from the CIA about contacts between people in Saddam's circle and Al Qaeda leaders, a legitimate concern and line of investigation.

Of course they didn't find any further links, but I hesitate to call hyped up beliefs lies.

Originally Posted by President Bush
Originally Posted by journalist
What did Iraq have to do with that?
What did Iraq have to do with what?
Originally Posted by journalist
The attack on the World Trade Center?
Nothing, except for it's part of -- and nobody has ever suggested in this administration that Saddam Hussein ordered the attack. Iraq was a -- the lesson of September the 11th is, take threats before they fully materialize, Ken. Nobody has ever suggested that the attacks of September the 11th were ordered by Iraq. I have suggested, however, that resentment and the lack of hope create the breeding grounds for terrorists who are willing to use suiciders to kill to achieve an objective. I have made that case.

And one way to defeat that -- defeat resentment is with hope. And
...............
in this political process are suggesting.
https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archi.../20060821.html
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Old 30th March 2019, 07:53 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Who said Iraq was involved in 9/11 though? Yeah a lot of people believed that mass hysteria.
But it appears to have been oversimplified speculation, as is often the case, by Bush and his crew after hearing from the CIA about contacts between people in Saddam's circle and Al Qaeda leaders, a legitimate concern and line of investigation.
Not a legitimate concern, and a deliberate tactic used to get the war on Iraqdesired by Cheney and Rumsfeld past public opinion. I'm thinking you weren't here on this forum at the time?
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Old 30th March 2019, 08:03 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Who said Iraq was involved in 9/11 though? Yeah a lot of people believed that mass hysteria.
But it appears to have been oversimplified speculation, as is often the case, by Bush and his crew after hearing from the CIA about contacts between people in Saddam's circle and Al Qaeda leaders, a legitimate concern and line of investigation.

Of course they didn't find any further links, but I hesitate to call hyped up beliefs lies.
https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archi.../20060821.html
One of the most clever and deceptive things the Bush administration did was to constantly associate Iraq with 911 without explicitly saying it was involved. They did it over and over and over. I'm pretty sure that no Bush administration official was allowed to say 911 without Iraq within seconds. They did this so much that well over half of all Americans believed that Iraq was involved. There is no question they were being honestly dishonest. Or was it dishonestly honest?
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Old 31st March 2019, 02:34 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Doesn't really match up to the USS Maine "attack", does it?

In Cuba, to some extent at least, it was overshadowed by the more recent La Coubre.
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Old 31st March 2019, 03:54 AM   #100
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"Land of the free"?
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Old 31st March 2019, 03:59 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
(That September 1939 thing is so Eurocentric!)
There's a book and documentary series by Niall Ferguson entitled War Of The World, in which it is argued that if you take a global view there was only one, global war in the 20th Century, rather than WWI, WWII, and the Cold War, and it lasted for nigh-on a century.
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Old 31st March 2019, 04:29 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
WW2 is white-people centric, don't you think? The Sino-Japanese war before Pearl Harbour isn't normally included, and the US wasn't allied with China.
Eurocentric.
WW1 was basically a European war that was only world-wide in that colonial empires were involved. Dark-skinned Troops from Africa and the Indian subcontinent fought in the European trenches.

WW2 "officially" started when the UK and France entered. This meant that the main belligerents of WW1 (and their empires) were fighting again.

There had also been war in Europe in the previous years, not just in Asia ( between Finland and the SU (Winter War) and Germany and Czechoslovakia).

Quote:
The Pacific conflict between the US and Japan was actually one thing while the North Atlantic conflict was a quite separate thing. They just happened to overlap between 1941 and '45.
There are several connections, mainly the colonial empires. There's also the formal alliance between Germany and Japan.The US and the SU also had a secret agreement that the SU would join the war against Japan after the surrender of Germany, which happened.
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Old 31st March 2019, 06:08 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
"Land of the free"?

"Home of the brave? (Japan Times, Dec. 12, 2014)
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Old 31st March 2019, 06:46 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Are you (or anyone else) still claiming we should not have entered WWII?

I'm sorry but I for one am glad we don't have the German Union ruling all of the EU and the UK so I'm confused what opinion you are espousing.
I don't think we should have entered WW2. An acceptable agreement could have been reached with Japan after Pearl harbor.
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Old 31st March 2019, 06:47 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
WW2 "officially" started when the UK and France entered. This meant that the main belligerents of WW1 (and their empires) were fighting again.

There had also been war in Europe in the previous years, not just in Asia ( between Finland and the SU (Winter War) and Germany and Czechoslovakia).
I agree. For published histories, I think that the British declaration against Germany, after the invasion of Poland, is the critical point. It's been said that "history is written by the victor". It's also true that, for most of the 20th century, history was published by the British.

The traditional view ignores Czechoslovakia, the Italians in Ethiopia, Japanese in Manchukuo, China, and South East Asia, and Germans, Italians, and Russians in Spain. While the others can be dismissed as colonial actions, or Central European border disputes, Spain was at the core of the European part of the war. Fascism versus Communism with German forces fighting Russian forces.
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Old 31st March 2019, 08:20 AM   #106
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You guys are all being pedantic about the two world wars. So let me add my 2 cents.

WW1 wasn't called that until the second world war. It was pretty much known as The Great War until then. The writers are going to call them something.
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Old 31st March 2019, 08:44 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't think we should have entered WW2. An acceptable agreement could have been reached with Japan after Pearl harbor.
Not to mention with the Nazis. Perhaps "we" could have agreed to turn over our Jews in exchange for peace. Kill two birds with one stone.
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Old 31st March 2019, 09:11 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Is that meant to be sarcasm?
My recollection of the lead up to the war is that Cheney and Rumsfeld tested that one out but didn't get a lot of traction so they moved on. I don't recall it being a major justification for the war.
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Old 31st March 2019, 09:14 AM   #109
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Back to the biggest political lie, it has to be Vietnam, just for the size and scope of it. The lie went over three presidential administrations representing both major parties. It was huge in the number of people involved across the Executive. It's not something in the leak culture of Washington that could happen today.
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Old 31st March 2019, 09:50 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Back to the biggest political lie, it has to be Vietnam, just for the size and scope of it. The lie went over three presidential administrations representing both major parties. It was huge in the number of people involved across the Executive. It's not something in the leak culture of Washington that could happen today.
What was the lie?
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Old 31st March 2019, 10:02 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't think we should have entered WW2. An acceptable agreement could have been reached with Japan after Pearl harbor.
Are you trying to compete with Cain?
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Old 31st March 2019, 10:04 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What was the lie?
Read the Pentagon Papers. The history lesson might do you some good.
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Old 31st March 2019, 10:23 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
My recollection of the lead up to the war is that Cheney and Rumsfeld tested that one out but didn't get a lot of traction so they moved on. I don't recall it being a major justification for the war.
I think your recollection is right and wrong all at the same time. They may have stopped EXPLICITLY saying that Iraq was involved with 911. But they NEVER stopped and even escalated tying Iraq to 911. They did it over and over and over. I'm pretty sure that no Bush administration official was allowed to say 911 without Iraq within seconds. They did this so much that well over half of all Americans believed that Iraq was involved. There is no question they were being honestly dishonest. Or was it dishonestly honest?
How many times did they say that they had intelligence that Mohammad Atta had been to Iraq. That is one of those cleverly deceitful statements. We also have intelligence that President Trump had two hookers pee on a bed. It's not very good intelligence, but it is intelligence.

What I see is the Bush administration was playing games with words. Being deliberately misleading without lying. It offered them deniability of a sorts.
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Old 31st March 2019, 10:32 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You guys are all being pedantic about the two world wars. So let me add my 2 cents.

WW1 wasn't called that until the second world war. It was pretty much known as The Great War until then. The writers are going to call them something.
Quote:
The Captain: Is this madness? Am I going mad?

Twelfth Doctor: Madness? Well, you're an officer from World War One at the South Pole, being pursued by an alien through frozen time. Madness was never this good.

The Captain: World War One?

Twelfth Doctor: Judging by the uniform, yes.

The Captain: Yes, but what do you mean... one?
Doctor Who: "Twice Upon A Time".
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Old 31st March 2019, 10:41 AM   #115
The Big Dog
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The Steele Dossier
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Old 31st March 2019, 10:46 AM   #116
theprestige
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't think we should have entered WW2. An acceptable agreement could have been reached with Japan after Pearl harbor.
An acceptable agreement *was* reached with Japan. It took a bit of work, to explain the situation in terms they could understand. But in the end, Japan went from being one of the biggest warmongers in the region to being our best partner for peace in the region. We should be so lucky as to reach similar agreements with the other big troublemakers on the Pacific Rim.
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Old 31st March 2019, 01:30 PM   #117
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Are you trying to compete with Cain?
It is just my isolationist viewpoint
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Old 31st March 2019, 01:32 PM   #118
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Read the Pentagon Papers. The history lesson might do you some good.
I am familiar with them. And if someone asked me what was the lie of Vietnam, I may have mentioned them. But I didn't ask craig4 to tell me my choice for lie. I'm asking what Craig chose.
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Old 31st March 2019, 02:00 PM   #119
crescent
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A perennially popular American political lie: They're coming for our guns!

Of course, this lie (and most other popular political lies) benefit a fair bit from the Constanza defense, in that the lies are perpetuated by a good many willing dupes who believe these things to be true.
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Old 31st March 2019, 02:04 PM   #120
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
A perennially popular American political lie: They're coming for our guns!

Of course, this lie (and most other popular political lies) benefit a fair bit from the Constanza defense, in that the lies are perpetuated by a good many willing dupes who believe these things to be true.
For this to be a lie, that would mean progressives intend European like policies on every issue except this one. That just isn't credible.
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