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Old 31st March 2019, 02:10 PM   #121
crescent
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
For this to be a lie, that would mean progressives intend European like policies on every issue except this one. That just isn't credible.
So it should be easy for you to find the cites from the major pro-gun control organizations that favor making all guns illegal. Look it up - Giffords, Everytown, Brady - none of them support that. Look up cites for bills introduced to make guns illegal - you won't find that either. It ought to be easy to prove me wrong - but other than a few out of context quotes, I don't think you'll be able to.

And, as has been covered many many many many many many many times in this forum, guns are not illegal in Europe. Tightly regulated, but not illegal. I have personal experience with this in Germany.

ETA: There are people in America who would like to take the guns away. But there is no meaningful movement to actually do so. No major gun control organization supports this. No bills get introduced. Some bills propose "banning" this or that type of gun, but nearly all include grandfather clauses for existing guns. Really, honestly, nobody is coming for the guns.

Last edited by crescent; 31st March 2019 at 02:14 PM.
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Old 31st March 2019, 02:30 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, The Lost Cause (Wikipedia) is a big one, but isn't it the American way of handling any disgraceful defeat?
No. For a start, remember that the USA won the civil war.
The Lost Cause was an essential propaganda tool to perpetuate the oppression and murder of african americans. It wasn't a way to sugar coat a bitter defeat. It was a tool in a social struggle.

Quote:
Like the Vietnam War, for instance ...
We may have killed hundreds of thousands of Southeast Asians, but we comfort ourselves with the idea that U.S. soldiers died valiantly for a noble cause.
1)Low estimats for the death toll start at ~1 million.

2)I don't think that there is any doubt that the US intervened in Vietnam out of a genuine desire to stop the spread of communism.
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Old 31st March 2019, 02:41 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
....

2)I don't think that there is any doubt that the US intervened in Vietnam out of a genuine desire to stop the spread of communism.
The US sided with French Colonialists when the majority of Vietnamese were ready to rid themselves of foreign corporate exploitation of resources and labor.

So a true desire to stop the spread of communism is the label, but underneath, the guts essentially amounted to supporting foreign colonialism. We did it all over the world.
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Old 31st March 2019, 02:47 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't think we should have entered WW2. An acceptable agreement could have been reached with Japan after Pearl harbor.
You know you didn't have a choice, right? Japan declared war on the USA (about 30 minutes after disabling the Pacific Fleet) and so did Germany.
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Old 31st March 2019, 03:23 PM   #125
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
You know you didn't have a choice, right? Japan declared war on the USA (about 30 minutes after disabling the Pacific Fleet) and so did Germany.
The situation with Japan could have been settled at that point.
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Old 31st March 2019, 03:44 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The situation with Japan could have been settled at that point.
With an "acceptable agreement"? Can you clarify what you mean by "acceptable"?
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Old 31st March 2019, 03:48 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
With an "acceptable agreement"? Can you clarify what you mean by "acceptable"?
Taking the foreign policy position we should have taken a long time ago.... renounce all interest outside of US state borders.
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Old 31st March 2019, 06:14 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
With an "acceptable agreement"? Can you clarify what you mean by "acceptable"?
Unconditional surrender?
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Old 31st March 2019, 06:21 PM   #129
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Obama's citizenship is in doubt.
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Old 31st March 2019, 07:10 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
So it should be easy for you to find the cites from the major pro-gun control organizations that favor making all guns illegal. Look it up - Giffords, Everytown, Brady - none of them support that. Look up cites for bills introduced to make guns illegal - you won't find that either. It ought to be easy to prove me wrong - but other than a few out of context quotes, I don't think you'll be able to.

And, as has been covered many many many many many many many times in this forum, guns are not illegal in Europe. Tightly regulated, but not illegal. I have personal experience with this in Germany.

ETA: There are people in America who would like to take the guns away. But there is no meaningful movement to actually do so. No major gun control organization supports this. No bills get introduced. Some bills propose "banning" this or that type of gun, but nearly all include grandfather clauses for existing guns. Really, honestly, nobody is coming for the guns.
Once again, this is premised on the progressive movement having zero interest in having gun policy any further left than an European conservative party. This despite the progressive agenda being to the left of European moderates.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 31st March 2019 at 07:12 PM.
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Old 31st March 2019, 08:14 PM   #131
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I'm going with the whole supply-side, trickle-down, Laffer-Curve, whatever-you-call-it economic idea that sending money to the rich (although often not described in those terms) would help everybody else instead of just helping the rich and making life harder for the rest. I'm declaring it "bigger" than others based on these criteria:
  1. It actually goes against what most people would naturally think by default if not told otherwise; it's so counter-intuitive that it needed a multi-step "theory" attached to it to describe how something that so naturally looks so obviously false at first it could possibly be true anyway. Nevertheless, it's not only survived but still led to the rest of these points below anyway...
  2. Following it has been having the opposite of the claimed effects on most people's actual everyday lives for decades and is still doing so right now.
  3. The supposed "opposition" party has nevertheless spent most of my life refusing/failing to ever actually oppose it and at least sometimes gone along with it themselves.
  4. The supposed "opposition" party still has a significant number of members still spouting the idea that, even if you don't buy this big lie, winning elections requires that you pretend to, or at least pretend to believe other things that are attached to it in some way.
  5. Based on the lack of any visible opposition to it for so long, even when paying attention to the "opposition" party for the specific goal of finding any counter to it, I still believed a version of it myself for a long time, on the principle that if it had good reasons/facts against it then surely somebody would be talking about them, especially somebody from that "opposition" party.
  6. Policies based on it are so entrenched & familiar that even if the big lie behind them were to lose most believers immediately, it would still be hard to uproot those policies just because of the normal resistance to change in our current culture.

As you might glean from some of those points, I'd say the #2 spot on the Biggest Lies list would be something about what the Democrats stand for or how unified they are about it or how well their usual behavior has been representing it.

Last edited by Delvo; 31st March 2019 at 08:17 PM.
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Old 31st March 2019, 08:38 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The whole schtick about equality and freedom being blared about to justify the Revolution and pretty much everything afterwards, while maintaining slavery for a century after and disenfranchisement of women and minorities afterwards, that's a rather tall lie that gets in one's face.

But on a more practical level I'd have to say the treaties the US kept making and breaking with the Native Americans. Hundreds of agreements and hundreds of betrayals. There was never the slightest good faith on the part of the US with those treaties, and we're still screwing them over to this day.

True, just go back to the beginning. All countries are liars and monsters and most of us are the fleas that ride on their backs. If I wish to stay alive, I’ll dwell on the back of the biggest.
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Old 1st April 2019, 08:49 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
Representative Mo Brooks (Alabama) has a answer.
In a recent speech he compared today’s Democrats to Nazi Germany’s leaders in that they both perpetrated the Big Lie and that they were both socialists. His argument’s conclusion was simple:

"For more than two years, socialist Democrats and their fake news media allies - CNN, MSNBC, the New York Times, Washington Post and countless others - have perpetrated the biggest political lie, con, scam and fraud in American history," Brooks continued, arguing that Attorney General William P. Barr's conclusions exposed the accusations of collusion as "nothing but a big lie."
This is the same guy who claimed that sea level rise is caused by the white cliffs of dover falling into the ocean...

Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
I'm going with the whole supply-side, trickle-down, Laffer-Curve, whatever-you-call-it economic idea that sending money to the rich (although often not described in those terms) would help everybody else instead of just helping the rich and making life harder for the rest. I'm declaring it "bigger" than others based on these criteria:
Probably this. It's possibly the most destructive yet widely believed lie thus far, but opposition to action on climate change will likely surpass it in the coming decades.
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Old 1st April 2019, 08:52 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Has anyone nominated "I did not have sex with that woman" yet?
"I'm not a crook!"
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Old 1st April 2019, 08:58 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
See what I mean folks?
The investigations turned up nothing, and yet you act like they did. If you have information to present, please do so. It'd be on topic, since it would help show that it was a big lie.

I'll be holding my breath.
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Old 1st April 2019, 09:01 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
There's a book and documentary series by Niall Ferguson entitled War Of The World, in which it is argued that if you take a global view there was only one, global war in the 20th Century, rather than WWI, WWII, and the Cold War, and it lasted for nigh-on a century.
Well, what we call the hundred-year war can be seen as a series of conflicts, so there's some truth to that.
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Old 1st April 2019, 09:03 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't think we should have entered WW2. An acceptable agreement could have been reached with Japan after Pearl harbor.
After Pearl Harbor, there was no possible acceptable agreement. Plus, the US won, so it's not like there's any regret to be had.
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Old 1st April 2019, 09:04 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The Steele Dossier
Hasn't most of the thing been proved correct, actually?

Do you have anything to add to the discussion that isn't divided along party lines?
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Old 1st April 2019, 09:13 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
After Pearl Harbor, there was no possible acceptable agreement. Plus, the US won, so it's not like there's any regret to be had.
I can think of a couple acceptable agreements to me.

We didn't win. We reinstated a form of slavery and kidnapped innocent people. That is a loss regardless of how anything else turns out
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Old 1st April 2019, 09:59 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
After Pearl Harbor, there was no possible acceptable agreement. Plus, the US won, so it's not like there's any regret to be had.
Aside from the millions of lost lives. Who knows if any agreement could have prevented it though. Possibly the US entering the war cut down on lost lives.

Last edited by eeyore1954; 1st April 2019 at 10:00 AM.
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Old 1st April 2019, 10:44 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Aside from the millions of lost lives.
Well, it was a war. The point is that the US wouldn't have sued for peace after the attack, and since it won, and transformed Japan into a modern economic ally, there's no reason to wish it didn't happen.
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Old 1st April 2019, 10:55 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Has anyone nominated "I did not have sex with that woman" yet? Because that lie got a president impeached. Hard to imagine a bigger political result than that.
Really? I grant you that was a lie. But if you're going to say that was a big lie, what measuring stick did you use? You see I don't believe you think that was a big lie. Because if you did, you would also believe that Trump saying he didn't have sex with Stormy Daniels was also a big lie.

Or do you think it stands out because Clinton didn't lie as often as Trump does? Is it because Trump lies so often any single lie is simply not memorable?

What do you say Prestige?
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Old 1st April 2019, 11:16 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Really? I grant you that was a lie. But if you're going to say that was a big lie, what measuring stick did you use? You see I don't believe you think that was a big lie. Because if you did, you would also believe that Trump saying he didn't have sex with Stormy Daniels was also a big lie.
Bad comparison since Trump actuality had sex with her. In the normal colloquial usage “sex” without some type of qualifier typically refers to intercourse, so while Clinton’s statement misleading it’s not really a lie.

Years of time and money wasted to come up with nothing more than that he said something misleading that had nothing to do with the activity that was purportedly being investigated made it petty obvious to nearly everyone that the whole thing was a money wasting political stunt and voters rightly punished Republicans accordingly.
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Old 1st April 2019, 11:22 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Really? I grant you that was a lie. But if you're going to say that was a big lie, what measuring stick did you use?
Please read the rest of my post.

Quote:
You see I don't believe you think that was a big lie.
Read the rest of my post, please.

Quote:
Because if you did, you would also believe that Trump saying he didn't have sex with Stormy Daniels was also a big lie.
Read. The rest. Of my. Post. Please.

Quote:
Or do you think it stands out because Clinton didn't lie as often as Trump does? Is it because Trump lies so often any single lie is simply not memorable?
Read the rest of my goddamn post.

Quote:
What do you say Prestige?
I SAY READ THE REST OF MY ******* POST BYTESLA.
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Old 1st April 2019, 11:24 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
"I'm not a crook!"
That's a small potatoes lie, among politicians.
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Old 1st April 2019, 11:25 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I think your recollection is right and wrong all at the same time. They may have stopped EXPLICITLY saying that Iraq was involved with 911. But they NEVER stopped and even escalated tying Iraq to 911. They did it over and over and over. I'm pretty sure that no Bush administration official was allowed to say 911 without Iraq within seconds. They did this so much that well over half of all Americans believed that Iraq was involved. There is no question they were being honestly dishonest. Or was it dishonestly honest?
How many times did they say that they had intelligence that Mohammad Atta had been to Iraq. That is one of those cleverly deceitful statements. We also have intelligence that President Trump had two hookers pee on a bed. It's not very good intelligence, but it is intelligence.

What I see is the Bush administration was playing games with words. Being deliberately misleading without lying. It offered them deniability of a sorts.
I would agree with that. I even remember Cheney being quoted as saying "we don't know they weren't involved".
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Old 1st April 2019, 11:27 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Myles View Post
True, just go back to the beginning. All countries are liars and monsters and most of us are the fleas that ride on their backs. If I wish to stay alive, I’ll dwell on the back of the biggest.
Thing is that you might be a flea one day, sucking blood like mad, and prey the next. The trick is, I suppose, to remain as the parasite and not the dinner.

So, I'd just as soon be a part of an honorable social arrangement, rather than be a passenger on the monster who looks like he's winning (for now).
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Old 1st April 2019, 11:30 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Please read the rest of my post.
I read the rest of your post. That doesn't dismiss that you even thought it was worth mentioning. That you were incapable of not taking a shot.
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Old 1st April 2019, 11:32 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Really? I grant you that was a lie. But if you're going to say that was a big lie, what measuring stick did you use? You see I don't believe you think that was a big lie. Because if you did, you would also believe that Trump saying he didn't have sex with Stormy Daniels was also a big lie.

Or do you think it stands out because Clinton didn't lie as often as Trump does? Is it because Trump lies so often any single lie is simply not memorable?

What do you say Prestige?
It's different because Trump wasn't impeached for his lie.

Of course, that's because Republicans have no standards, but I don't think you'll get the prestige to admit that.
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Old 1st April 2019, 11:35 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Please read the rest of my post.


Read the rest of my post, please.


Read. The rest. Of my. Post. Please.


Read the rest of my goddamn post.


I SAY READ THE REST OF MY ******* POST BYTESLA.
The rest of your post concerns FDR and is therefore irrelevant to the question that was asked:

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Has anyone nominated "I did not have sex with that woman" yet? Because that lie got a president impeached. Hard to imagine a bigger political result than that.

But I'd actually nominate Roosevelt's sneaking an isolationist America into World War 2 by gradual degrees. Bait and switch. Miles for inches. Forgiveness in place of permission. Roosevelt used every political trick in the book, to get the US in on the biggest event in world history, and on the right side of history to boot. I don't think there's a bigger political lie than that, in all of American history.


And you know, if you're going to get snippy about it at least please make a helpful comment when you do. It's asinine to be snippy and give a completely irrelevant comment like that.
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Old 1st April 2019, 11:36 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I would agree with that. I even remember Cheney being quoted as saying "we don't know they weren't involved".
Like arguing with any and every theist. "Well, you can't prove there isn't a God". Yeah, and I can't disprove the existence of Sasquatch, the Loch Ness monster, the Easter Bunny or Spiderman. That doesn't make any of them true.
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Old 1st April 2019, 11:39 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I read the rest of your post. That doesn't dismiss that you even thought it was worth mentioning. That you were incapable of not taking a shot.
The rest of my post answers your questions about what yardstick I used and why I thought it stands out. It also addresses your appeal to incredulity about what I believe, and by inference addresses your point about one of Trump's lies.

Everything in my post addresses all of your points about that post. You say you read my post, but it seems you ignored my arguments in favor of making a personal attack against me. Why did you do that, acbytesla?
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Old 1st April 2019, 11:41 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
The rest of your post concerns FDR and is therefore irrelevant to the question that was asked:





And you know, if you're going to get snippy about it at least please make a helpful comment when you do. It's asinine to be snippy and give a completely irrelevant comment like that.
All of acbytesla's questions are answered explicitly in the part of my post that he quoted in his reply. Maybe it's not fair to expect that he get as far as the actual end of my post, but I think it's entirely reasonable to expect him to read and understand the three sentences he actually quoted.
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Old 1st April 2019, 12:26 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The rest of my post answers your questions about what yardstick I used and why I thought it stands out. It also addresses your appeal to incredulity about what I believe, and by inference addresses your point about one of Trump's lies.

Everything in my post addresses all of your points about that post. You say you read my post, but it seems you ignored my arguments in favor of making a personal attack against me. Why did you do that, acbytesla?
It wasnt an attack against you, but a demonstration of the kind of thinking involved in mentioning this. All it could possibly do is define the poster as ultra-partisan.
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Old 1st April 2019, 01:03 PM   #155
mgidm86
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Bad comparison since Trump actuality had sex with her. In the normal colloquial usage “sex” without some type of qualifier typically refers to intercourse, so while Clinton’s statement misleading it’s not really a lie.

Years of time and money wasted to come up with nothing more than that he said something misleading that had nothing to do with the activity that was purportedly being investigated made it petty obvious to nearly everyone that the whole thing was a money wasting political stunt and voters rightly punished Republicans accordingly.

Except that isn't the quote. The quote was:

"I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky."

There's your qualifier. His statement was a 100% lie. Not that I really care what he did, but you got it wrong.
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Old 1st April 2019, 01:06 PM   #156
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"My side is right where it matters, your side is wrong on a technicality."

I think that about sums it up.
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Old 1st April 2019, 01:26 PM   #157
theprestige
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It wasnt an attack against you, but a demonstration of the kind of thinking involved in mentioning this. All it could possibly do is define the poster as ultra-partisan.
No.

I gave clear arguments in my post. Those arguments directly answered your questions. You ignored those arguments and attacked my alleged motivation directly. That's a clear case of addressing the arguer, not the argument.

Please apologize for that.

Please go back, read my arguments, and address them as such.
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Old 1st April 2019, 02:26 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
No.

I gave clear arguments in my post. Those arguments directly answered your questions. You ignored those arguments and attacked my alleged motivation directly. That's a clear case of addressing the arguer, not the argument.

Please apologize for that.

Please go back, read my arguments, and address them as such.
WOW! De Nile is not just a river in Africa. Give it up.

You took a partisan shot to preface your post. I know it, the thread knows and I KNOW you're too damn smart not to not know it also. Own it and move on. Or don't own it and live in fantasy land. It is entirely up to you.
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Old 1st April 2019, 02:35 PM   #159
theprestige
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
WOW! De Nile is not just a river in Africa. Give it up.

You took a partisan shot to preface your post. I know it, the thread knows and I KNOW you're too damn smart not to not know it also. Own it and move on. Or don't own it and live in fantasy land. It is entirely up to you.
You asked me what yardstick I used for my measure. The passage of mine that you quoted answers that question explicitly. Did you not mean to ask the question? Or did you just not notice that I'd already answered it before you even asked?
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Old 1st April 2019, 02:54 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You asked me what yardstick I used for my measure. The passage of mine that you quoted answers that question explicitly. Did you not mean to ask the question? Or did you just not notice that I'd already answered it before you even asked?
It wasnt a very big political result unless you mean how it backfired on the Republican party.
But I remain convinced that the only reason you mentioned it was so you could repeat another partisan dig. But whatever.
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