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Old 1st April 2019, 03:02 PM   #161
theprestige
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It wasnt a very big political result unless you mean how it backfired on the Republican party.
At least you're actually addressing my argument now.
Quote:
But I remain convinced that the only reason you mentioned it was so you could repeat another partisan dig. But whatever.
But then you go right back to the personal attacks. Why?
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Old 1st April 2019, 03:16 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
But then you go right back to the personal attacks. Why?
An observation of a pattern does not constitute a political attack. Are you saying you don't have partisan political views?
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Old 1st April 2019, 03:23 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
An observation of a pattern does not constitute a political attack. Are you saying you don't have partisan political views?
The posting patterns and motives of other members is off topic in this thread. It's also a personalization of the debate, which is explicitly against the rules here.

Then there's the problem that you asked me a question that was directly answered in the post you asked about. Did you not realize that when you asked the question?
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Old 5th April 2019, 12:24 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The situation with Japan could have been settled at that point.
You know they attacked a US naval installation without declaring war and killed nearly two and a half thousand Americans? What settlement could Roosevelt (the US president at the time) have agreed with the Japanese that would have been politically acceptable?
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Old 5th April 2019, 12:33 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
You know they attacked a US naval installation without declaring war and killed nearly two and a half thousand Americans? What settlement could Roosevelt (the US president at the time) have agreed with the Japanese that would have been politically acceptable?
Don't bother. Bob's value system explicitly rejects any standard intended for real humans trying to solve real problems in the real world.
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Old 5th April 2019, 06:30 PM   #166
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“Go ahead and continue your war of conquest throughout east Asia, and we’ll continue to trade with you in exactly the things you need to execute that War, never mind that it interferes with our regional interests and is being prosecuted against our allies.”

The 20th century would have turned out a lot different, but at least Bob would feel pure.
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Old 5th April 2019, 11:54 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
“Go ahead and continue your war of conquest throughout east Asia, and we’ll continue to trade with you in exactly the things you need to execute that War, never mind that it interferes with our regional interests and is being prosecuted against our allies.”

The 20th century would have turned out a lot different, but at least Bob would feel pure.
Yeah that wouldn’t happen these days... *cough* Saudi Arabia, *cough*Iran, *cough*Romania, *cough* Chile, *cough*Uzbekistan, *cough* Libya . . .
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Old 8th April 2019, 06:07 AM   #168
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The Biggest political lie might be the fake Russia dossier.
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Old 8th April 2019, 06:14 AM   #169
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It could also be the 'Fine People' hoax that the media has been putting forth for two years.
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Old 8th April 2019, 12:44 PM   #170
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Someone follows Fox News.
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Old 9th April 2019, 07:48 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
“Go ahead and continue your war of conquest throughout east Asia, and we’ll continue to trade with you in exactly the things you need to execute that War, never mind that it interferes with our regional interests and is being prosecuted against our allies.”

The 20th century would have turned out a lot different, but at least Bob would feel pure.
Exactly.

the US as a whole has no regional interests.
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Old 9th April 2019, 07:52 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
The Biggest political lie might be the fake Russia dossier.
Luckily, we have the real one.
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Old 9th April 2019, 08:00 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
The Biggest political lie might be the fake Russia dossier.
Are you saying the Steele Dossier? It was raw intelligence. It was never expected to be 100% true. It is interesting however how much of it has been confirmed.
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Old 9th April 2019, 10:45 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Are you saying the Steele Dossier? It was raw intelligence. It was never expected to be 100% true. It is interesting however how much of it has been confirmed.
Also, did the dossier spend much time asserting claims were true, or only that the sources asserted they were true?
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Old 9th April 2019, 10:49 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Exactly.

the US as a whole has no regional interests.
Okay, you don't believe in regional interests. Let's try this:

The owner of a gunshop is sitting in his shop when outside he sees a regular customer of his shoot someone and take his stuff. The customer then goes on to shoot several other people. When he runs out of bullets he asks to buy some from the gunshop owner. The owner says no, so the customer starts to attack him. Should he fight back, or do you think he should offer to sell him the bullets if he'll just leave him alone?
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Old 9th April 2019, 10:53 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Okay, you don't believe in regional interests. Let's try this:

The owner of a gunshop is sitting in his shop when outside he sees a regular customer of his shoot someone and take his stuff. The customer then goes on to shoot several other people. When he runs out of bullets he asks to buy some from the gunshop owner. The owner says no, so the customer starts to attack him. Should he fight back, or do you think he should offer to sell him the bullets if he'll just leave him alone?
This analogy doesn't hold. I don't think the US government should have a policy on if things should or should not be sold to another government.
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Old 9th April 2019, 10:56 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
This analogy doesn't hold.
Cool. Why doesn't it hold?
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Old 10th April 2019, 04:56 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Cool. Why doesn't it hold?
Because the options presented doesn't describe the options that I see as available. The US government should not be determining if something should be sold to another government.

ETA: Further, an attack on an individual is an existential threat. Pearl harbor is a sunk cost at that point, and the Philippines (where the US shouldnt have been anyway) is not an existential threat to the US.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 10th April 2019 at 05:03 AM.
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Old 10th April 2019, 09:16 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Because the options presented doesn't describe the options that I see as available.
But the options that you see as available are not relevant. The options that are relevant were those available to the US government the late 1930's and early 1940's. They could either let Japan carry on with its expansionism in Asia or do something to try to stop it.

Quote:
The US government should not be determining if something should be sold to another government.
Why not?

Quote:
Pearl harbor is a sunk cost at that point
That doesn't matter. It had to be avenged or the politicians in charge of the US government would be finished and Japan would take it as a signal that they could do anything they liked in Asia and the Pacific.

Furthermore, you still haven't addressed the fact that both Japan and Germany declared war on the USA before the USA declared war on them. It's not like the USA had a choice.
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Old 10th April 2019, 09:22 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't think the US government should have a policy on if things should or should not be sold to another government.
That's daft even for you.
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Old 10th April 2019, 09:24 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Okay, you don't believe in regional interests. Let's try this:

The owner of a gunshop is sitting in his shop when outside he sees a regular customer of his shoot someone and take his stuff. The customer then goes on to shoot several other people. When he runs out of bullets he asks to buy some from the gunshop owner. The owner says no, so the customer starts to attack him. Should he fight back, or do you think he should offer to sell him the bullets if he'll just leave him alone?
Have you ever in your entire life used an analogy, and had your audience say, "thanks, now that you used that analogy, I understand and maybe even agree with your position"?
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Old 10th April 2019, 10:12 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I'd agree with this.

And if it needs to be a single statement, I'd nominate:

"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness"

To lead your declaration with that and then own people for almost three quarters of a century afterwards has the be the most blantant lie, the most consequential and the most central to the heart of our country.
The real “lie” portion of the above is only the part that says, “We hold these”. The rest should be self evident truths. The truths aren’t often held with any regard.
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Old 10th April 2019, 10:16 AM   #183
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I would say that the Vietnam War was the biggest American political lie, and that the Iraq War was the second biggest American political lie.
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On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool."
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Old 10th April 2019, 10:19 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Have you ever in your entire life used an analogy, and had your audience say, "thanks, now that you used that analogy, I understand and maybe even agree with your position"?
Is this anything like a child who can't draw claiming that nobody can make a drawing that looks like the subject?
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Old 10th April 2019, 10:31 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
The Biggest political lie might be the fake Russia dossier.
You're not joking, are you.

Trump says it often enough and his followers believe it.

I think Trump's huge lies are going to need to settle over time before we can see which ones were the biggest. He's clearly in the running.
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Old 10th April 2019, 10:33 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Someone follows Fox News.
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Old 10th April 2019, 10:33 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Furthermore, you still haven't addressed the fact that both Japan and Germany declared war on the USA before the USA declared war on them. It's not like the USA had a choice.
There is a choice. Negotiate a peace.
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Old 10th April 2019, 12:28 PM   #188
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Biggest political lie today:
"The government spied on the Trump campaign".
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Old 10th April 2019, 04:06 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Have you ever in your entire life used an analogy, and had your audience say, "thanks, now that you used that analogy, I understand and maybe even agree with your position"?
Yeah, but admittedly more often in person than on the internet (online it may be limited more to the "I understand" part, than to "I agree", that happens pretty rarely with any form of argument).

In this case I was more hoping that the analogy would help to get bob to make clear exactly where he disagreed, though I failed in that too.
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Last edited by Roboramma; 10th April 2019 at 04:09 PM.
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Old 10th April 2019, 04:10 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There is a choice. Negotiate a peace.
That was one of the options I listed.
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Old 10th April 2019, 09:51 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
That was one of the options I listed.
And tbe person I responded to didn't.
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Old 10th April 2019, 10:43 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
And tbe person I responded to didn't.
Okay, fair enough.

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Because the options presented doesn't describe the options that I see as available.
What options do you see as available that were not presented?
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Old 10th April 2019, 10:56 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Okay, fair enough.



What options do you see as available that were not presented?
You misread what I wrote. I said it doesn't describe. That doesn't mean there must exist options that were not presented. That also can describe options not existing that were presented. I described the latter and joemorgue called me daft for it.
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Old 11th April 2019, 12:23 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You misread what I wrote. I said it doesn't describe. That doesn't mean there must exist options that were not presented. That also can describe options not existing that were presented. I described the latter and joemorgue called me daft for it.
I think I'm the daft one because I can't even parse this.

"options presented doesn't describe the options that I see as available" doesn't mean that the I didn't include the options that you see as available, only that they weren't described?

I'm not seeing how the analogy doesn't hold because something wasn't described. Can you explain?

ETA: You said:
Quote:
I don't think the US government should have a policy on if things should or should not be sold to another government.
Which clearly doesn't apply to the analogy. But I don't think it applies to the actual situation either. That's the whole point. If you can show why it's different in the actual situation than the analogy that would be useful.
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Last edited by Roboramma; 11th April 2019 at 12:25 AM.
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Old 11th April 2019, 04:22 AM   #195
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I'm not seeing how the analogy doesn't hold because something wasn't described. Can you explain?
Nope. I cant. I won't be able to articulate it.
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Old 11th April 2019, 05:37 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Nope. I cant. I won't be able to articulate it.
If you are unable articulate your own points, then it is quite unlikely that anyone will take your points seriously.
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On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool."
A man's best friend is his dogma.
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Old 11th April 2019, 05:41 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
If you are unable articulate your own points, then it is quite unlikely that anyone will take your points seriously.
I can't imagine any situation where anybody would take him seriously. How many hundreds of threads turn into the same faulty loop that's costing him a Turing Test victory?
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Old 11th April 2019, 05:46 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
If you are unable articulate your own points, then it is quite unlikely that anyone will take your points seriously.
Obviously. That is why I said it.
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Old 11th April 2019, 06:04 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Obviously. That is why I said it.
Thanks much.

I will try to keep this fact in mind in the future.
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On 05 FEB 2019, President Donald Trump said in his Sate of the Union Address: "If there is going to be peace and legislation, there cannot be war and investigation."
On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool."
A man's best friend is his dogma.
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Old 11th April 2019, 06:09 AM   #200
Roboramma
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Nope. I cant. I won't be able to articulate it.
Okay. Thanks for the honesty of this reply.
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"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
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