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Tags | artificial intelligence , consciousness |
View Poll Results: Is consciousness physical or metaphysical? |
Consciousness is a kind of data processing and the brain is a machine that can be replicated in other substrates, such as general purpose computers. | 81 | 86.17% | |
Consciousness requires a second substance outside the physical material world, currently undetectable by scientific instruments | 3 | 3.19% | |
On Planet X, unconscious biological beings have perfected conscious machines | 10 | 10.64% | |
Voters: 94. You may not vote on this poll |
19th April 2012, 03:11 AM | #161 |
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Show me a human that can survive in the real world for 70,000 years without help from robots, and you will have my attention. I doubt any of the people from that time managed to live for 70,000 years. Hormones. (Well, I suppose you could attach a computer to some kind of chemical synthesizing device capable of manufacturing hormones.) |
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19th April 2012, 04:02 AM | #162 |
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What the hell... why not just quote it for us? You're trying to convince us of your point of view, so you should be able to quote a single sentence from a video you've seen instead of forcing each of us to search for a video to find out what you're talking about.
For benefit of everyone else, here's what it says: "Hunting through these [satellite images] is a slow and monotonous task that can't be done by computer." Did you even stop to consider why they regard this task as something that "can't be done by computer"? If you had, you might have realized the reason is that the extremely complex software required to perform this highly specialized task does not exist. It's not that computers are inherently incapable of performing this task, but that programmers haven't yet figured out how to instruct computers to perform this task. Pondering this part of your post leads me to conclude you don't understand the concept. You bring up art, humor, poetry and philosophy. All products of human intelligence and creativity never before generated by a computer. But human intelligence has never before been generated by a computer either. Once a computer generates human intelligence it would be reasonable to expect it to be able to create products of human intelligence. But not before this happens. I see. It's clear you don't understand what's meant by computation in this context. So here's a link to help facilitate the discussion... Computational theory of mind In case you can't be bothered reading that page here's a quote that should make it clear that the term "computation" is not being used how you think it's being used: Computational theory of mind is not the same as the computer metaphor, comparing the mind to a modern day digital computer. Computational theory just uses some of the same principles as those found in digital computing.If the computational theory of mind is correct (ie, that the human brain functions by processing information) then logically any Turing Complete machine should be able to perform the same function (given sufficient time, memory and the right program). If the computational theory of mind is incorrect... then how does the mind work? Magical pixie dust? |
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19th April 2012, 04:12 AM | #163 |
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It’s certainly a convenient way of defining consciousness into existence, as a necessary condition per definition.
Yet I would rather say that consciousness relates to experience in a similar way as weather relates to temperature, moisture, wind velocity, and barometric pressure. Both “consciousness” and “weather” are useful conceptual devices. But when one tries to find “consciousness” or “weather” in their own right, zooming in, one only finds what they relate to (as different systemic configurations). When zooming out, on the other hand, one only finds necessary conditions for where the systemic configurations can exist. For weather it would be an atmosphere, and for consciousness it might be a nervous system … or something like that. But, having said that, I also find the notion of SRIP to be quite suitable when defining consciousness. Here one should remember that consciousness simply refers to a mechanism, not to a variety of potential experiences. Thus we might consider a thermostat (as a system) producing momentary instances of consciousness. The human system produces instances of consciousness as well. Hence the mechanism is considered to be similar, in principle, yet the resulting manifestation is vastly different, in practise. Kind of like combustion, where different substances burn in different ways (e.g., hydrogen burns in chlorine to form hydrogen chloride whereas carbon will yield carbon dioxide). Yet we find a similar kind of underlying principle (mechanism) at play. |
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19th April 2012, 06:17 AM | #164 |
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My question was: Though it's been said that a computer can no more produce consciousness than a computer simulation of photosynthesis can produce real sugar, what evidence is there of a SUBSTANCE of consciousness the brain produces that no machine ever could produce?
The outputs of the brain you mention are INFORMATION, not substances (like sugar from photosynthesis). The output of computers is INFORMATION. There's been lots of work in making computers output works of art. The suggestion that they could never produce good works is as naive as the assertions that they beat chess masters and Jeopardy champions. I don't doubt that when computers and AI become sufficiently advanced, they will produce art significantly better than the average conscious person. If you are so sure no computer could ever output a work of fine art, explain why. PS: I'm a huge Dali and Escher fan. I've attended major exhibits of their works, and even owned a Dali. My favorite Dali is "Young Virgin Auto-Sodomized by Her Own Chastity," my favorite Escher is "Bond of Union," and my favorite old Star Trek is "The Changeling", probably because it investigates machine consciousness. As much as I love the show, I object to its monotonous appeal to our narcissism. The lesson of too many of them is that we, by virtue of our "illogical" emotions, are superior to anything we'd encounter out there. |
19th April 2012, 06:19 AM | #165 |
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I was making up the stuff about the rock. I just wanted to mess with the debate.
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19th April 2012, 06:24 AM | #166 |
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19th April 2012, 07:19 AM | #167 |
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So you cannot click on a link and then click on the slide bar of the video to go to the assigned minute? Oh well.... maybe you should learn how to do that. If you are incapable of doing that or too lazy then just do not bother and go away…..but do not blame me for not transcribing video scripts for you when you could just as easily watch the video. I am not your stenographer. Have you considered that I have actually posted the link to the video and must have therefore considered quite well why I was citing it. Have you considered the CONTEXT of the citation..... if you where in fact able to READ the post and the post it was responding to and the HIGHLIGHTED bit in that You may have grasped the CONTEXT of the whole thing and this post of yours would not have been a giant big snidely CONTEXTOMIZATION FALLACY. You see the bit in the video was "something else the brain outputs that machines could not" ....... that was why I cited it.....because it was something that machines cannot do while brains can......you see you have to be able to COMPREHEND the CONTEXT of a post before you comment on it with childish superciliousness.. And how does that detract from the fact that it is "something else the brain outputs that machines could not" Whether it can be programmed or not is a matter of CONJECTURE since at the moment it has not been done with all the knowhow we have and with all the RESOURCES the USA military has put to it. But that is immaterial to the point which is that it is "something else the brain outputs that machines could not" which is why I cited it in response to the question. I think you need to learn what the word CONTEXT means....before you mouth off your superciliousness. It is clear you do not know how to read posts.... the post was in response to this question in this post So it has nothing to do with computation or anything..... in case you have missed the question.... it was asking if there is anything that the brain can "output" that a machine cannot. The answer was in that post whose context has obviously eluded you. So it is you who did not read and comprehend the post and the post it was responding to and you failed to understand the CONTEXT of the post. You see CONTEXT is of paramount importance.....that is why there is even a logical fallacy called CONTEXTOMIZATION which is a fallacy of putting things out of CONTEXT. So when you learn what CONTEXT means maybe you should go back and read the post and the post it was responding to and maybe you can comprehend where your snarky attitude has failed you. My other post you quoted and highlighted the word “computation” in had nothing to do with the video or material in the other post. It was talking about consciousness and therefore you AGAIN have failed to appreciate or comprehend the CONTEXT. I really do think that you need to learn how to read things in CONTEXT so as to stop committing the contextomization logical fallacy. Your whole post is nothing but one long logical fallacy. |
19th April 2012, 07:26 AM | #168 |
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19th April 2012, 08:57 AM | #169 |
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This is the most sensible point that has been made in this thread. The architecture of the code and the processor are both important.
When it comes to human processor architecture and coding we are limited by the fact we can only use human processors to analyse. We can't look beyond what our processor is programmed to interpret its code as. We can only see the representation of the code, not the code itself. |
19th April 2012, 09:20 AM | #170 |
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"Anyway, why is a finely-engineered machine of wire and silicon less likely to be conscious than two pounds of warm meat?" Pixy Misa "We live in a world of more and more information and less and less meaning" Jean Baudrillard http://bokashiworld.wordpress.com/ |
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19th April 2012, 11:00 AM | #171 |
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The context of MY question was whether or not a machine could produce the physical or metaphysical substance of consciousness (also expressed in post #1 of this thread). I saw that you changed my context, and I responded to you in both contexts.
Yes, the video did say a computer could not identify enemy hideouts from satellite photos as well as people could. But I've learned, working in research laboratories (including difficult image analysis projects) never to say never. There is no doubt a software project working on it that soon will have a program far better and faster than people can do that task, and without simulating consciousness. When that happens, I expect you'll move the goal posts. All you are saying is computers are not as smart as people, but computers are getting smarter all the time, and people aren't. Computers should catch up with and surpass us, and maybe even achieve a higher state of consciousness than we ever could. Where will you move the goal posts when THAT happens? ROFL |
19th April 2012, 11:22 AM | #172 |
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I certainly will remember this post.
Okay, so your logic is that humans don't get smarter and computers that do. Hmm so who makes these computers that get smarter? Surely not the humans that can't get smarter. How are they suppose to make smarter computers if they don't get smarter at making computers? Are you suggesting the computers make themselves? Watson was made by another computer? Is Watson smarter than the guys at IBM that programmed Watson? |
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"Anyway, why is a finely-engineered machine of wire and silicon less likely to be conscious than two pounds of warm meat?" Pixy Misa "We live in a world of more and more information and less and less meaning" Jean Baudrillard http://bokashiworld.wordpress.com/ |
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19th April 2012, 11:41 AM | #173 |
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I could easily program a computer to play better chess than me. In some of the videos about Watson there were moments when Watson's developers were quite surprised and delighted by how well Watson was doing. There are also links between speed and memory size, and smartness, in people and in machines. It works like this: Say Watson was equal in smartness (at Jeopardy) to a particular person, if you then doubled Watson's clock speed, you'd double its smartness, and it might double it's score against that person.
We are certainly getting smarter every day at programming smart computers. There's no doubt about that. The essential question of this thread, stated a different way, is whether or not we will hit a brick wall in our efforts with AI, and if so, what is the nature of that wall? |
19th April 2012, 11:55 AM | #174 |
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I don't think playing chess or answering Jeopardy questions show computers are smart. I think they show that playing chess and answering Jeopardy questions aren't the smart activities that many thought they were. Brains do a lot more complicated things than both these tasks all the time.
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19th April 2012, 12:03 PM | #175 |
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"Anyway, why is a finely-engineered machine of wire and silicon less likely to be conscious than two pounds of warm meat?" Pixy Misa "We live in a world of more and more information and less and less meaning" Jean Baudrillard http://bokashiworld.wordpress.com/ |
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19th April 2012, 12:47 PM | #177 |
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Go study what moving the goalposts fallacy actually means then come back and read the rest of this post. Your OWN question was The question in the context of your post above is quite clear…. I am not supposed to read your mind and figure out that you also meant to include other stuff from other posts which you never quoted or cited. I answered your question in the context of the post it was in and gave you NUMEROUS examples of brain output that machines are currently not doing….just like you asked… whether machines can do so in the future someday perhaps maybe if and when they do then I hope we are both alive to see it. By the way speculating that I might move the goalposts when in the future your speculations about machines might come true and thus acting as if I have in fact moved the goalposts is a WHOLE NEW FALLACY that you have invented all by yourself....congratulations..... can we name it The Scott Free Fallacy? But in fact IT IS YOU WHO IS MOVING THE GOALPOSTS right now not in some speculative future.... you do so in three ways
So…. You are the one who is doing wishful thinking and then basing a generalization on the outcome of your wishful thinking and moving the goalposts of your posts.....and do not forget this Scott Free fallacy of yours to boot. |
19th April 2012, 12:58 PM | #178 |
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19th April 2012, 01:02 PM | #179 |
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I wouldn't expect any kind of "direct" coding to produce consciousness, but rather a system of simulated neurons, or something like simulated neurons. This is similar to the way physics-engine-based games are now produced: you design the game with entities in the simulated environment, often with very little "real" coding.
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19th April 2012, 01:02 PM | #180 |
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19th April 2012, 01:08 PM | #181 |
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The two quotes above make me seriously wonder….is it your hope one day that you will join the smarter machines as perhaps a smarter human than the rest of humans and thus the machines will deign to have you as a minion or perhaps overlord over the stupid humans? This reminds me of the human servant of Dracula as depicted in old vampire movies…. not the modern ones where vampires are now teenage heartthrobs. Just as a side note…. You keep falling for the burden of proof fallacy as below When someone makes GUESSES and CONJECTURES about what might happen in the future the burden of proof is on him not on the people who might reject his speculations and dreams. You see, no one can prove your wishful thinking and hopeful aspirations for some future speculative event to be false or true….just like we cannot prove god to be false or true…… BOTH ARE FICTIVE HOPES and thus no one can give you evidence for why Data and Hal and God cannot become reality because they are DREAMS…… the onus of proof is on YOU when you make the assertions you made in the above two quoted posts. You do not seem to be able to distinguish between SPECULATION and REALITY. |
19th April 2012, 02:53 PM | #182 |
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19th April 2012, 03:00 PM | #183 |
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Your vitriol fascinates me.
There's lots of evidence we are made of molecular machines, and we have lots of experience simulating them in computers. There's no evidence I know that there's some special uncomputable aspect of life or biological intelligence. I looked hard for it when I was a woo! If you've got some, share it, will you? |
19th April 2012, 03:10 PM | #184 |
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Chess computers do a lot more than recalling positions from a book, and Watson does a lot more than recalling facts. You'd be more fun to debate with if you knew what you were talking about.
So, computers cannot have the magic bean of smartness? Why not? You've posted so much attacking others' positions. What's your position on the lmits of machine intelligence? Where the boundary lies, and why it's there. |
19th April 2012, 03:51 PM | #185 |
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Smart people INVENT machines and tools that no one has ever made before. Normal people USE THE TOOLS and are bewildered and dazzled by the cleverness of these machines and tools made by people much smarter than them and consequently recognize and appreciate how smart the people who made the tools are. Stupid people USE THE TOOLS but are so bewildered and dazzled by the cleverness of these machines and tools made by people infinitely smarter than them and think that these machines are smarter than all people. They also think themselves smart because they know how to make the machines do clever things using even more tools made by smart people to enable normal and stupid people to easily manipulate the machines and tools to do clever things. For example.....smart people make Lego sets..... normal people use them to play and appreciate the makers of the set....stupid people use the Lego set to make things and think themselves smart because they put a few bricks of Lego together and think they created new clever stuff. |
19th April 2012, 04:43 PM | #186 |
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Fascinating..... so now you are simulating cells in your laptop too? Reality old chump..... Reality..... you may want to recognize it one day. There you go again assuming that just because you do not know of something then it cannot be.....do you know what fallacy that is? This thread is one interesting fallacy after another from the onset… even going so far as inventing a new one. Now I get it.... your overcompensation and zeal for attributing woo at the drop of a hat to anyone who disagrees with your false dichotomy makes sense now. It is like an ex-alcoholic teetotaler who thinks that people who drink must be alcoholics too. Personalities that do things in extremes are apt to carry over their extremism on either side of the spectrum even when they change sides they are as zealously extreme for the new side as they were for the old one they were on. I can also understand your FAITH in computer intelligence…. You identify with having an all on or all off mindset. No I have never had any, I was never woo. But you obviously have enough to go all round. You have as much woo for computers now that you are on their side as you did when you were on god's side. ETA: I now also understand your proclivity to committing logical fallacies all over the place... it is definitely a prevalent woo tendency. |
19th April 2012, 05:03 PM | #187 |
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Ditto10... Well the only response I have to this straw man is to use your own words slightly modified ETA: Just to make it easy for you... if you want to know my position then watch the minutes I suggested in the video I linked to in this post. But also watch the whole video. ETAA: Of course if you were sincere about wanting to know my position you would have already known what it is from the NUMEROUS posts in this thread to which you were a very active participant. But again to make it easy for you see this just one recent post which may make it easier for you. |
19th April 2012, 05:09 PM | #188 |
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Gosh this is turning out just like the old thread! What are the odds!!??
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19th April 2012, 05:19 PM | #189 |
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19th April 2012, 06:32 PM | #190 |
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Well, if the experts can't define it for the layperson, how are the laypeople gonna 'splain it to eachother?
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19th April 2012, 09:21 PM | #191 |
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But I did do that. How else would I have been able to transcribe the sentence?
My point is that you watched the video and had to note the time at which this sentence occurs in order to give us the location of this sentence in the video. With the exact same effort you could have easily typed out this sentence. Did it occur to you that many people find it annoying to have to visit external links to find out what someone is referring to? To impose this annoyance on others when it would take no extra effort on your part to avoid causing it is somewhat inconsiderate. Yes I did, and I concluded that if you you had considered it sufficiently you wouldn't have bothered making such a pointless reference. Yes, I did consider the context of the citation, but I also considered the context of your reply. Exactly what have I quoted out of context? There are no examples in your post of anything a human brain could output that a computer could not, in theory, also output. If we're going to talk about contextomization or quoting out of context, then it's clear that you're the one guilty of this. Let's take Mr Scott's post: Q: How is a computer-simulated conscious brain NOT like computer-simulated photosynthesis?You concentrated solely on the final sentence, and completely ignored the context provided by the preceding sentences. With the possible exception of analyzing aerial photographs, everything you referred to as examples of things the "brain outputs that machines could not" are actually products of a physical body under the control of a brain. In order to produce these works the only thing the brain outputs is "control signals" that direct the body, as Mr Scott pointed out in his post. But you've completely ignored this context and instead posted examples of the product of this output rather than the output itself, in clear disregard of the meaning made clear in Mr Scott's post. I, on the other hand have accepted the new context provided by your examples and attempted to argue that these products of human creativity can theoretically also be produced by a computer. If anyone here is guilty of "CONTEXTOMIZATION FALLACY", it's you. ETA: Reading further through the thread, I see that Mr Scott already pointed this out to you, but your response to that indicates you aren't even aware of the contextual information in the post itself. So for your benefit, I've highlighted the relevant contextual information above so you can re-read the highlighted parts until you understand. Because it's not something that machines are not theoretically capable of outputting. It's not a matter of conjecture. It's a matter of computability theory. If the task of interpreting these images was not a computable function it would theoretically impossible for anyone or anything to interpret them. Since humans can interpret them, then this must be a computable function, and therefore it is theoretically possible for a computer to do this. Whether or not it would be practical to program a computer to do this is a different question entirely. Possibly it might take an absurd amount of processing power or time (which amounts to the same thing, as double the amount of time is equivalent to double the amount of processing power), or it might require programming in vast amounts of contextual knowledge and understanding that humans unconsciously acquire in childhood. But the fact that the USA Military is involved in this is completely irrelevant to the discussion. |
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19th April 2012, 09:43 PM | #192 |
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It's perilously close to a god-of-the-gaps argument, and it's known as the AI effectWP, commonly seen as "AI is whatever hasn't been done yet".
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19th April 2012, 09:53 PM | #194 |
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Functioning molecular simulations of proteins, cells and viruses are used by biologists in order work out how they function and would react to different drugs and chemicals.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21303343 http://people.maths.ox.ac.uk/maini/P...ations/185.pdf http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12944258 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1302288 Reality old chump..... Reality..... you may want to recognize it one day. |
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19th April 2012, 10:25 PM | #195 |
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I'm aware of the industry and actually worked in it.
What's happening actually supports what I'm saying. Look at the AI in the Deus Ex series. The first Deus Ex, more than a decade ago, had blocks for hands and really dull lighting. Speed and graphics have improved by orders of magnitude. AI, seemingly, not at all. While admittedly a bit old, the "we'll explain what we did in the game" on Riddick: Butcher Bay is quite informative. It's actually quite an excellent game, better IMO than the movies, with a nice balance of adventure, shoot-em-up, and boss elements. Pay particular attention to the fight scene and the picture showing the scripts. While some simple flocking rules could make for interesting fights, the designers of the game chose to pile script upon script, and the narrator even points out "designers like scripts." Why? My guess is that it's for the psychological need of the developers. A script is comprehensible and seems computery to a fairly average geek. Also pay attention to the amount of work they did to prevent players from being in places they don't want to go. Well, what for? Why not leave this flexibility for the player to explore? It's fun to find even flaws in games, if they are sufficiently obscure. One of my most enjoyable times with a game was in the old 2-D Star Trek, where I somehow navigated outside of the galaxy. It was a bug, of course, but it was fun. Now, I'm writing a program, the central part of which is huge conversations with a number of characters. Think the back-and-forth like in the original Deus Ex where you talk to Smuggler or whoever. These are usually pretty simple, made up of hand-crafted, scripted digraphs. However, I'm using a much more organic approach, partially because it's far too huge to hand-script, and partially because I want surprises. I want it to be more like an organic conversation, where people are reminded of other things, come back to old ideas later, and think up stuff seemingly out of the blue. I don't know what the final product will look like, but I am pretty sure that the only reason I can even try is that I'm doing it on my own whilst starving, and that there would be no chance in hell that any company would let me try such an approach. I might be able to get away with it for a little while as a research professor, but I was a research professor once, and it's stultifying in it's own way. So if machine consciousness ever happens, it will be up to the Mad Scientist like me, which is coincidentally the way it's always portrayed. |
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19th April 2012, 10:27 PM | #196 |
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20th April 2012, 12:27 AM | #197 |
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You are conveniently EQUIVOCATING the word simulation now.... this is disingenuous to the extreme.....you are relying on the evasiveness so far by computationalists to accept the DISTINCTION between simulation and emulation. I think this has been a DELIBERATE tactic and a very dishonest one. If all the time you are talking about simulations producing a replica of something (emulation) then you cannot all of a sudden switch to saying here is one that is just a computer simulation (simulation) and make it count. Do you think there are computerized replicas (emulations) of cells? Your post is a disingenuous and deliberate Equivocation fallacy old chump..... |
20th April 2012, 06:16 AM | #198 |
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20th April 2012, 08:18 AM | #199 |
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20th April 2012, 08:27 AM | #200 |
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That isn't a full representation of the industry, though.
In fact every place I have worked there is a constant argument between AI programmers on whether we should concentrate on making the AI scriptable, so designers can get the exact presentation they want ( cinematic games like Modern Warfare ) or making the AI very intelligent and organic, so players can experiment with it and get a more real feeling from it ( open world games like Grand Theft Auto 4, sim games like The Sims, and even some FPS games like Half Life 2 or Crysis ). It usually ends up being a compromise, with us putting in pretty intelligent behavior in some aspects that end up being entirely scripted anyway due to the designers having the final say in the matter. But that doesn't mean the AI doesn't get more and more advanced each time. |
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