Biden for President? - Page 4

Ziggurat · 7th March 2020, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

1992? 1996? 2008? 2012?

Bill Clinton was a centrist, but Obama was not.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 7th March 2020, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

Lots of focus on "gaffes" and handwaving them away as perhaps even part of his folksy charm.

But there's tales made up out of whole cloth (arrested in S.A. trying to see Mandela) and innumerable statements where he shows his contempt for progressive values.

Dementia would almost seem to be the less concerning reason to explain those, do you still want to back away from that explanation for such cases?

Sanders has started to go on the attack over those things. Over the last couple of days he's been pointing out that Biden voted against allowing gay people to openly serve in the military and for cutting social security, while Sanders voted the opposite.

Speaking as an outsider, I think Sanders is the better candidate in terms of policy, history, and integrity. I think Biden looks more likely to win the primaries, but would be worse for the country if elected president.

I'm not sure which would be more likely to beat Trump in an election. It's a fact that young people haven't been voting in the primaries, which could be indicative that they wouldn't vote in the election, which would be bad for Sanders. But, then, perhaps that's more a case of not truly understanding the importance of the primaries and they would turn out for the election after all. I'd need to see some historical data to form an opinion.

I tend to think that if Sanders can get the youth motivated, then he potentially could beat Trump. I think that Biden is more vulnerable to Trump's attacks, and I don't see people getting enthusiastic about him. He doesn't seem to inspire passion in people. I think Biden could be another Hillary Clinton.

d4m10n · 7th March 2020, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Bill Clinton was a centrist, but Obama was not.

Which progressive policies did Obama push forward, thereby distinguishing him from the mainstream liberalism of Clinton and/or Biden?

Childlike Empress · 7th March 2020, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Which progressive policies did Obama push forward, thereby distinguishing him from the mainstream liberalism of Clinton and/or Biden?

"Change you can believe in". Remember that? The full (secret) slogan was "Change you can believe in if you're gullible". I think he won a price for that.

But of course Zig is right. Obama didn't run as a centrist. He ran as the hopey changey guy. He wasn't a centrist candidate, he just turned out to be a centrist president.

d4m10n · 7th March 2020, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

But of course Zig is right. Obama didn't run as a centrist.

Which progressive policies did he run on which distinguish him from the current Biden campaign?

Childlike Empress · 7th March 2020, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Which progressive policies did he run on which distinguish him from the current Biden campaign?

Look it up yourself.

Distracted1 · 7th March 2020, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Bill Clinton was a centrist, but Obama was not.

Nonsense.
The Right tried very hard to stick the "radical", "palling around with terrorists" labels on him, but no one with half a brain or more bought that ****.

Stacyhs · 7th March 2020, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

So Biden just needs to smile and shake hands while people in the background make all the decisions. Sounds perfect.

That is quite the leap to take from my post. Do you think it's a bad thing for a POTUS to listen to his advisers?

Stacyhs · 7th March 2020, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacyhs
Yeah, Melania learned that the hard way.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

I expect this is supposed to be a "what aboutism" but it doesn't really work as their careers and standing are so different. She married a guy nobody ever thought would hold an elected position. Biden's a career politician who's held office and run for office for what, fifty years now? He should definitely be held to a much higher standard. I'm not sure her English is ever good enough to write a speech. As much as I detest our mad king and have contempt for our foreign queen I think her cribbing a speech is small potatoes in the grander scheme. Plagiarism speaks to character and we already know her character: golddigger. She's not running for office, so what does she matter?

Biden, however, is running for office and he's got a track record of foolishly obvious dishonesty demonstrated in repeated incidents of plagiarism. That's much more damning.

No, not at all. It was in response to your comment about how hard it is to get away with plagiarism in this day and age of Google. I was agreeing with you.

Stacyhs · 7th March 2020, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

You're absolutely right. It was a stupid thing to say, and I withdraw it.

Admitting error is a sign of maturity, character and a healthy ego.

d4m10n · 7th March 2020, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

Look it up yourself.

Hitchens razor^WP applies in this case.

Someone who doubts your claim that "Obama didn't run as a centrist" doesn't need to show that he did.

The Great Zaganza · 7th March 2020, 02:28 PM

True.
Obama was probably more right-wing than Clinton.

Childlike Empress · 7th March 2020, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Hitchens razor^WP applies in this case.

Someone who doubts your claim that "Obama didn't run as a centrist" doesn't need to show that he did.

I don't care behind which junk you're trying to hide your dishonesty.

Won't work.

Delvo · 7th March 2020, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

1992? 1996? 2008? 2012?

Yes, campaign slogans like "A vote for me is a vote for change!" and then "Hope & change!" plus even "My Presidency will be remembered as the time when everything in the whole world started getting better because of all my change!" can work, even when they come from someone who won't end up following through on them.

This is evidence that Biden could win the general election if he were to campaign on the same pretense at progressiveness that those guys did. But he isn't. His pretense at being like Bernie is limited to making up stories for his past, not campaigning as if he were progressive now.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

Sanders has started to go on the attack over those things. Over the last couple of days he's been pointing out that Biden voted against allowing gay people to openly serve in the military and for cutting social security, while Sanders voted the opposite.

He should have been more attacky all along. He'd be in a better position now if he had. (Although, as always for him, his actual current position is better than it's generally presented; it's about a tie being treated as an utterly hopeless loss already, whereas if he were more willing to say bad stuff about his opponents instead of just talking about good stuff he wants to do, he'd be solidly ahead and the general story being told about it would be that it's approximately a tie.)

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

Speaking as an outsider, I think Sanders is the better candidate in terms of policy, history, and integrity. I think Biden looks more likely to win the primaries, but would be worse for the country if elected president.

Even people voting for Biden agree. They've never produced a single solitary argument for him on the issues, just the electability myth that's precisely the opposite of reality, while all of the polls on issues consistently show much more support for Bernie-like positions among all Democrats (and often all Americans), not just Bernie's. Biden just doesn't have actual support even among his own supporters.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

I'm not sure which would be more likely to beat Trump in an election. It's a fact that young people haven't been voting in the primaries, which could be indicative that they wouldn't vote in the election, which would be bad for Sanders. But, then, perhaps that's more a case of not truly understanding the importance of the primaries and they would turn out for the election after all. I'd need to see some historical data to form an opinion.

The idea that Bernie would depend on some wildly unprecedented wave of millions upon millions of roughly-20-year-old voters is a myth cooked up by his opponents as a straw man. Democrats have won Presidential elections before (and lost by quite close margins, not huge blowouts) without anything completely off-the-wall happening. And they've done it with voters who wanted policies like Bernie's and candidates who campaigned like they were going to push for such policies.

d4m10n · 7th March 2020, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

I don't care behind which junk you're trying to hide your dishonesty.

Evasion noted.

Originally Posted by Delvo

Yes, campaign slogans like "A vote for me is a vote for change!" and then "Hope & change!" plus even "My Presidency will be remembered as the time when everything in the whole world started getting better because of all my change!" can work...

Are those all actual quotes?

Sideroxylon · 7th March 2020, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

That is quite the leap to take from my post. Do you think it's a bad thing for a POTUS to listen to his advisers?

Not at all. It is essential. But they should be giving advice to someone with vision and wit. America shouldn’t chose a president who is showing disturbing signs of mental decline.

llwyd · 7th March 2020, 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Not at all. It is essential. But they should be giving advice to someone with vision and wit. America shouldn’t chose a president who is showing disturbing signs of mental decline.

Oh yes, we have Donald *****' Trump. And then there is a non-Trump, but not nearly perfect. I foresee an endless number of posts like these if Biden is selected. As he has told several untruths and has had moments of some confusion. And these things are supposed to count as Biden is a Democrat. For sure as hell, they don't seem to matter the slightest bit to Republicans when it's about Trump - and to a far higher degree. In a perfect world, surely, there would be a combination of Abraham Lincoln and Winston Churchill running against this despicable, corrupt person, but now it might just be Joe Biden. So go Joe, give them hell fgs.

Delphic Oracle · 7th March 2020, 05:00 PM

Biden's speech at his St. Louis rally was 7 minutes.

He still managed to get in "I'm an Obiden-Bama Democrat" and slipping Kamala's name in with Beto, Amy, and Pete, possibly leaking her endorsement before it is official.

Stacyhs · 7th March 2020, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by llwyd

Oh yes, we have Donald *****' Trump. And then there is a non-Trump, but not nearly perfect. I foresee an endless number of posts like these if Biden is selected. As he has told several untruths and has had moments of some confusion. And these things are supposed to count as Biden is a Democrat. For sure as hell, they don't seem to matter the slightest bit to Republicans when it's about Trump - and to a far higher degree. In a perfect world, surely, there would be a combination of Abraham Lincoln and Winston Churchill running against this despicable, corrupt person, but now it might just be Joe Biden. So go Joe, give them hell fgs.

We keep being told that Biden has dementia/is in mental decline blah, blah, blah. What do they present as evidence? The same type of things he's been doing for decades.

Quote:

Gaffes have always been part of Biden’s public image, well before this latest presidential run. His unscripted nature is a big part of his political persona, and he’s had a habit of making news for a slip of the tongue in years past.

(Vox)

When Biden confused Burlington, Iowa, with Burlington, Vt. last summer, that must be a sign of dementia. But Trump did a similar thing when he mixed up Concord, NH with Concord, MA in February. When Trump commented on the shootings in Toledo, OH he confused that city with Dayton. Surely these gaffes must be a sign that Trump is also suffering from dementia?

Is Biden's age of concern? Yes. So is Sanders' who is even older. So is Trump's. I certainly would have preferred a younger candidate. But it's either going to be Biden or Sanders vs Trump and spreading this allegation about Biden having dementia based on nothing more than him doing what he's always done is not going to help get rid of Trump. It's just counterproductive.

Delphic Oracle · 7th March 2020, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

We keep being told that Biden has dementia/is in mental decline blah, blah, blah. What do they present as evidence? The same type of things he's been doing for decades.

(Vox)

When Biden confused Burlington, Iowa, with Burlington, Vt. last summer, that must be a sign of dementia. But Trump did a similar thing when he mixed up Concord, NH with Concord, MA in February. When Trump commented on the shootings in Toledo, OH he confused that city with Dayton. Surely these gaffes must be a sign that Trump is also suffering from dementia?

Is Biden's age of concern? Yes. So is Sanders' who is even older. So is Trump's. I certainly would have preferred a younger candidate. But it's either going to be Biden or Sanders vs Trump and spreading this allegation about Biden having dementia based on nothing more than him doing what he's always done is not going to help get rid of Trump. It's just counterproductive.

Hypocrisy by some partisan figures in regards to this claim don't actually have anything to do with the veracity of the claim.

"But Trump" simply can't be the answer to all criticism.

Either that or we don't really have a problem with whataboutisms and are being hypocrites ourselves.

sir drinks-a-lot · 7th March 2020, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

We keep being told that Biden has dementia/is in mental decline blah, blah, blah. What do they present as evidence? The same type of things he's been doing for decades.

So you're defending the claim that Biden is in mental decline by saying that he was never quite there mentally?

Distracted1 · 7th March 2020, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

Hypocrisy by some partisan figures in regards to this claim don't actually have anything to do with the veracity of the claim.

"But Trump" simply can't be the answer to all criticism.

Either that or we don't really have a problem with whataboutisms and are being hypocrites ourselves.

When faced with a choice of only two possible outcomes, comparing one to the other is not "whataboutism", is it?

Sideroxylon · 7th March 2020, 08:38 PM

“Joe Biden has always been demented.” Yeah, a great presidential candidate. Trump will definitely not dine out on that during the run for the top job. Trump will destroy him.

Delvo · 7th March 2020, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

We keep being told that Biden has dementia/is in mental decline blah, blah, blah. What do they present as evidence? The same type of things he's been doing for decades.

Comparison with himself as recorded years ago; it's nowhere near the same thing.

Stacyhs · 7th March 2020, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot

So you're defending the claim that Biden is in mental decline by saying that he was never quite there mentally?

If that is what you got from my posts, then I suggest a course in remedial reading comprehension.

Sideroxylon · 7th March 2020, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot

So you're defending the claim that Biden is in mental decline by saying that he was never quite there mentally?

Yes, that is what is going on here.

Stacyhs · 7th March 2020, 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

“Joe Biden has always been demented.” Yeah, a great presidential candidate. Trump will definitely not dine out on that during the run for the top job. Trump will destroy him.

Getting that from what I wrote is like a Rorschach test; funny how people see things so differently.

Sideroxylon · 7th March 2020, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Getting that from what I wrote is like a Rorschach test; funny how people see things so differently.

It’s hilarious. But seriously. The Dems are better off with a candidate with their wits about them. Trump will wreck Biden and you get another four years.

Stacyhs · 7th March 2020, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by Delvo

Comparison with himself as recorded years ago; it's nowhere near the same thing.

It's a claim easily made yet with no supporting evidence provided. I've yet to see anyone actually provide anything that show he's declined mentally.

Media articles say he's always been known for doing exactly what he's doing today..

Sideroxylon · 7th March 2020, 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

It's a claim easily made yet with no supporting evidence provided. I've yet to see anyone actually provide anything that show he's decline mentally.

Media articles say he's always been known for doing exactly what he's doing today..

“He has always been demented.”

Stacyhs · 7th March 2020, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

It’s hilarious. But seriously. The Dems are better off with a candidate with their wits about them. Trump will wreck Biden and you get another four years.

Maybe. But you still have failed to provide any evidence that Biden has any form of dementia but your own proclamations.

As I've said, to think that Dr. Jill or his family/close friends would support Biden running for POTUS if they thought he wasn't mentally up to it is absurd.

Stacyhs · 7th March 2020, 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

“He has always been demented.”

You do know that repeating something does not make it true, don't you? If you'd like to actually provide some evidence that Biden has dementia, please do. Otherwise, you're just wasting everyone's time.

Stacyhs · 7th March 2020, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Yes, that is what is going on here.

https://media.giphy.com/media/isP4TLqhjm3zq/giphy.gif

Edited by kmortis:

Removed to comply with Rule 12 & Rule 0

angrysoba · 7th March 2020, 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

“Joe Biden has always been demented.” Yeah, a great presidential candidate. Trump will definitely not dine out on that during the run for the top job. Trump will destroy him.

You lying dog-faced pony soldier! Look him over and if you don’t like what you see, vote for the other Biden. He’s got hairy legs, he loves kids jumping on his lap and he was VP under president...my boss!

dudalb · 7th March 2020, 09:21 PM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Not at all. It is essential. But they should be giving advice to someone with vision and wit. America shouldn’t chose a president who is showing disturbing signs of mental decline.

And they should not be choosing a 78 year old with heart issues.

dudalb · 7th March 2020, 09:23 PM

I see the Bernie Bros are doing Trump's dirty work for him.

Bob001 · 7th March 2020, 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Maybe. But you still have failed to provide any evidence that Biden has any form of dementia but your own proclamations.

As I've said, to think that Dr. Jill or his family/close friends would support Biden running for POTUS if they thought he wasn't mentally up to it is absurd.

The broader question is whether his brand of old-school political accommodation is the right answer to the right-wing's slash-and-burn borderline fascism. Trump is a symptom, not the cause, of where we are now. What will Biden do to appeal to the people who thought Trump belonged in the White House? I think there's a real possibility that Trump could beat Biden.

dudalb · 7th March 2020, 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by Bob001

The broader question is whether his brand of old-school political accommodation is the right answer to the right-wing's slash-and-burn borderline fascism. Trump is a symptom, not the cause, of where we are now. What will Biden do to appeal to the people who thought Trump belonged in the White House? I think there's a real possibility that Trump could beat Biden.

True. But you don't think there is a real possiblity that Trump cuuld best Bernie?

Bob001 · 7th March 2020, 09:31 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

True. But you don't think there is a real possiblity that Trump cuuld best Bernie?

Sure he could. But Sanders at least has plans that he can articulate and defend that might benefit a lot of Americans. What is Biden's actual plan?

Sideroxylon · 7th March 2020, 09:32 PM

Joe Biden is a ‘healthy, vigorous’ 77-year-old, his doctor declares
[...]
“The only test that hasn’t been done is the cognitive functioning test,” Olshansky added.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...1a9_story.html

7th March 2020, 09:30 AM	#121
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,256	Originally Posted by d4m10n 1992? 1996? 2008? 2012? Bill Clinton was a centrist, but Obama was not.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

7th March 2020, 09:36 AM	#122
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 31,237	Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle Lots of focus on "gaffes" and handwaving them away as perhaps even part of his folksy charm. But there's tales made up out of whole cloth (arrested in S.A. trying to see Mandela) and innumerable statements where he shows his contempt for progressive values. Dementia would almost seem to be the less concerning reason to explain those, do you still want to back away from that explanation for such cases? Sanders has started to go on the attack over those things. Over the last couple of days he's been pointing out that Biden voted against allowing gay people to openly serve in the military and for cutting social security, while Sanders voted the opposite. Speaking as an outsider, I think Sanders is the better candidate in terms of policy, history, and integrity. I think Biden looks more likely to win the primaries, but would be worse for the country if elected president. I'm not sure which would be more likely to beat Trump in an election. It's a fact that young people haven't been voting in the primaries, which could be indicative that they wouldn't vote in the election, which would be bad for Sanders. But, then, perhaps that's more a case of not truly understanding the importance of the primaries and they would turn out for the election after all. I'd need to see some historical data to form an opinion. I tend to think that if Sanders can get the youth motivated, then he potentially could beat Trump. I think that Biden is more vulnerable to Trump's attacks, and I don't see people getting enthusiastic about him. He doesn't seem to inspire passion in people. I think Biden could be another Hillary Clinton.
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

7th March 2020, 10:13 AM	#123
d4m10n Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 6,321	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Bill Clinton was a centrist, but Obama was not. Which progressive policies did Obama push forward, thereby distinguishing him from the mainstream liberalism of Clinton and/or Biden?
	__________________ "Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

7th March 2020, 11:28 AM	#124
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 18,956	Originally Posted by d4m10n Which progressive policies did Obama push forward, thereby distinguishing him from the mainstream liberalism of Clinton and/or Biden? "Change you can believe in". Remember that? The full (secret) slogan was "Change you can believe in if you're gullible". I think he won a price for that. But of course Zig is right. Obama didn't run as a centrist. He ran as the hopey changey guy. He wasn't a centrist candidate, he just turned out to be a centrist president.
	__________________ If they want the pandemic to end, they just have to stop testing. Then people will die of the flu again, like they did before - Wolfgang Wodarg

7th March 2020, 11:40 AM	#125
d4m10n Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 6,321	Originally Posted by Childlike Empress But of course Zig is right. Obama didn't run as a centrist. Which progressive policies did he run on which distinguish him from the current Biden campaign?
	__________________ "Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

7th March 2020, 11:45 AM	#126
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 18,956	Originally Posted by d4m10n Which progressive policies did he run on which distinguish him from the current Biden campaign? Look it up yourself.
	__________________ If they want the pandemic to end, they just have to stop testing. Then people will die of the flu again, like they did before - Wolfgang Wodarg

7th March 2020, 12:13 PM	#127
Distracted1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 5,332	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Bill Clinton was a centrist, but Obama was not. Nonsense. The Right tried very hard to stick the "radical", "palling around with terrorists" labels on him, but no one with half a brain or more bought that ****.
	__________________ The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.

7th March 2020, 01:01 PM	#128
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 17,972	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon So Biden just needs to smile and shake hands while people in the background make all the decisions. Sounds perfect. That is quite the leap to take from my post. Do you think it's a bad thing for a POTUS to listen to his advisers?

7th March 2020, 01:05 PM	#129
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 17,972	Quote: Originally Posted by Stacyhs Yeah, Melania learned that the hard way. Originally Posted by TragicMonkey I expect this is supposed to be a "what aboutism" but it doesn't really work as their careers and standing are so different. She married a guy nobody ever thought would hold an elected position. Biden's a career politician who's held office and run for office for what, fifty years now? He should definitely be held to a much higher standard. I'm not sure her English is ever good enough to write a speech. As much as I detest our mad king and have contempt for our foreign queen I think her cribbing a speech is small potatoes in the grander scheme. Plagiarism speaks to character and we already know her character: golddigger. She's not running for office, so what does she matter? Biden, however, is running for office and he's got a track record of foolishly obvious dishonesty demonstrated in repeated incidents of plagiarism. That's much more damning. No, not at all. It was in response to your comment about how hard it is to get away with plagiarism in this day and age of Google. I was agreeing with you.

7th March 2020, 01:07 PM	#130
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 17,972	Originally Posted by theprestige You're absolutely right. It was a stupid thing to say, and I withdraw it. Admitting error is a sign of maturity, character and a healthy ego.

7th March 2020, 01:43 PM	#131
d4m10n Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 6,321	Originally Posted by Childlike Empress Look it up yourself. Hitchens razor^WP applies in this case. Someone who doubts your claim that "Obama didn't run as a centrist" doesn't need to show that he did.
	__________________ "Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin Last edited by d4m10n; 7th March 2020 at 01:44 PM.

7th March 2020, 02:28 PM	#132
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 14,612	True. Obama was probably more right-wing than Clinton.
	__________________ So what are you going to do about it, huh? What would an intellectual do? What would Plato do?

7th March 2020, 02:34 PM	#133
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 18,956	Originally Posted by d4m10n Hitchens razor^WP applies in this case. Someone who doubts your claim that "Obama didn't run as a centrist" doesn't need to show that he did. I don't care behind which junk you're trying to hide your dishonesty. Won't work.
	__________________ If they want the pandemic to end, they just have to stop testing. Then people will die of the flu again, like they did before - Wolfgang Wodarg

7th March 2020, 02:36 PM	#134
Delvo Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: North Tonawanda, NY Posts: 9,279	Originally Posted by d4m10n 1992? 1996? 2008? 2012? Yes, campaign slogans like "A vote for me is a vote for change!" and then "Hope & change!" plus even "My Presidency will be remembered as the time when everything in the whole world started getting better because of all my change!" can work, even when they come from someone who won't end up following through on them. This is evidence that Biden could win the general election if he were to campaign on the same pretense at progressiveness that those guys did. But he isn't. His pretense at being like Bernie is limited to making up stories for his past, not campaigning as if he were progressive now. Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim Sanders has started to go on the attack over those things. Over the last couple of days he's been pointing out that Biden voted against allowing gay people to openly serve in the military and for cutting social security, while Sanders voted the opposite. He should have been more attacky all along. He'd be in a better position now if he had. (Although, as always for him, his actual current position is better than it's generally presented; it's about a tie being treated as an utterly hopeless loss already, whereas if he were more willing to say bad stuff about his opponents instead of just talking about good stuff he wants to do, he'd be solidly ahead and the general story being told about it would be that it's approximately a tie.) Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim Speaking as an outsider, I think Sanders is the better candidate in terms of policy, history, and integrity. I think Biden looks more likely to win the primaries, but would be worse for the country if elected president. Even people voting for Biden agree. They've never produced a single solitary argument for him on the issues, just the electability myth that's precisely the opposite of reality, while all of the polls on issues consistently show much more support for Bernie-like positions among all Democrats (and often all Americans), not just Bernie's. Biden just doesn't have actual support even among his own supporters. Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim I'm not sure which would be more likely to beat Trump in an election. It's a fact that young people haven't been voting in the primaries, which could be indicative that they wouldn't vote in the election, which would be bad for Sanders. But, then, perhaps that's more a case of not truly understanding the importance of the primaries and they would turn out for the election after all. I'd need to see some historical data to form an opinion. The idea that Bernie would depend on some wildly unprecedented wave of millions upon millions of roughly-20-year-old voters is a myth cooked up by his opponents as a straw man. Democrats have won Presidential elections before (and lost by quite close margins, not huge blowouts) without anything completely off-the-wall happening. And they've done it with voters who wanted policies like Bernie's and candidates who campaigned like they were going to push for such policies.

7th March 2020, 02:41 PM	#135
d4m10n Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 6,321	Originally Posted by Childlike Empress I don't care behind which junk you're trying to hide your dishonesty. Evasion noted. Originally Posted by Delvo Yes, campaign slogans like "A vote for me is a vote for change!" and then "Hope & change!" plus even "My Presidency will be remembered as the time when everything in the whole world started getting better because of all my change!" can work... Are those all actual quotes?
	__________________ "Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin Last edited by d4m10n; 7th March 2020 at 02:42 PM.

7th March 2020, 04:40 PM	#136
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 24,264	Originally Posted by Stacyhs That is quite the leap to take from my post. Do you think it's a bad thing for a POTUS to listen to his advisers? Not at all. It is essential. But they should be giving advice to someone with vision and wit. America shouldn’t chose a president who is showing disturbing signs of mental decline.

7th March 2020, 04:48 PM	#137
llwyd Muse Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 745	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon Not at all. It is essential. But they should be giving advice to someone with vision and wit. America shouldn’t chose a president who is showing disturbing signs of mental decline. Oh yes, we have Donald *****' Trump. And then there is a non-Trump, but not nearly perfect. I foresee an endless number of posts like these if Biden is selected. As he has told several untruths and has had moments of some confusion. And these things are supposed to count as Biden is a Democrat. For sure as hell, they don't seem to matter the slightest bit to Republicans when it's about Trump - and to a far higher degree. In a perfect world, surely, there would be a combination of Abraham Lincoln and Winston Churchill running against this despicable, corrupt person, but now it might just be Joe Biden. So go Joe, give them hell fgs.
llwyd Muse Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 745	Last edited by llwyd; 7th March 2020 at 04:50 PM.

7th March 2020, 05:00 PM	#138
Delphic Oracle Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 5,348	Biden's speech at his St. Louis rally was 7 minutes. He still managed to get in "I'm an Obiden-Bama Democrat" and slipping Kamala's name in with Beto, Amy, and Pete, possibly leaking her endorsement before it is official.

7th March 2020, 05:36 PM	#139
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 17,972	Originally Posted by llwyd Oh yes, we have Donald *****' Trump. And then there is a non-Trump, but not nearly perfect. I foresee an endless number of posts like these if Biden is selected. As he has told several untruths and has had moments of some confusion. And these things are supposed to count as Biden is a Democrat. For sure as hell, they don't seem to matter the slightest bit to Republicans when it's about Trump - and to a far higher degree. In a perfect world, surely, there would be a combination of Abraham Lincoln and Winston Churchill running against this despicable, corrupt person, but now it might just be Joe Biden. So go Joe, give them hell fgs. We keep being told that Biden has dementia/is in mental decline blah, blah, blah. What do they present as evidence? The same type of things he's been doing for decades. Quote: Gaffes have always been part of Biden’s public image, well before this latest presidential run. His unscripted nature is a big part of his political persona, and he’s had a habit of making news for a slip of the tongue in years past. (Vox) When Biden confused Burlington, Iowa, with Burlington, Vt. last summer, that must be a sign of dementia. But Trump did a similar thing when he mixed up Concord, NH with Concord, MA in February. When Trump commented on the shootings in Toledo, OH he confused that city with Dayton. Surely these gaffes must be a sign that Trump is also suffering from dementia? Is Biden's age of concern? Yes. So is Sanders' who is even older. So is Trump's. I certainly would have preferred a younger candidate. But it's either going to be Biden or Sanders vs Trump and spreading this allegation about Biden having dementia based on nothing more than him doing what he's always done is not going to help get rid of Trump. It's just counterproductive.

7th March 2020, 06:01 PM	#140
Delphic Oracle Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 5,348	Originally Posted by Stacyhs We keep being told that Biden has dementia/is in mental decline blah, blah, blah. What do they present as evidence? The same type of things he's been doing for decades. (Vox) When Biden confused Burlington, Iowa, with Burlington, Vt. last summer, that must be a sign of dementia. But Trump did a similar thing when he mixed up Concord, NH with Concord, MA in February. When Trump commented on the shootings in Toledo, OH he confused that city with Dayton. Surely these gaffes must be a sign that Trump is also suffering from dementia? Is Biden's age of concern? Yes. So is Sanders' who is even older. So is Trump's. I certainly would have preferred a younger candidate. But it's either going to be Biden or Sanders vs Trump and spreading this allegation about Biden having dementia based on nothing more than him doing what he's always done is not going to help get rid of Trump. It's just counterproductive. Hypocrisy by some partisan figures in regards to this claim don't actually have anything to do with the veracity of the claim. "But Trump" simply can't be the answer to all criticism. Either that or we don't really have a problem with whataboutisms and are being hypocrites ourselves.

7th March 2020, 07:39 PM	#141
sir drinks-a-lot Illuminator Join Date: May 2004 Location: Cole Valley, CA Posts: 4,513	Originally Posted by Stacyhs We keep being told that Biden has dementia/is in mental decline blah, blah, blah. What do they present as evidence? The same type of things he's been doing for decades. So you're defending the claim that Biden is in mental decline by saying that he was never quite there mentally?
	__________________ I don't like that man. I must get to know him better. --Abraham Lincoln

7th March 2020, 08:07 PM	#142
Distracted1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 5,332	Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle Hypocrisy by some partisan figures in regards to this claim don't actually have anything to do with the veracity of the claim. "But Trump" simply can't be the answer to all criticism. Either that or we don't really have a problem with whataboutisms and are being hypocrites ourselves. When faced with a choice of only two possible outcomes, comparing one to the other is not "whataboutism", is it?
	__________________ The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.

7th March 2020, 08:38 PM	#143
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 24,264	“Joe Biden has always been demented.” Yeah, a great presidential candidate. Trump will definitely not dine out on that during the run for the top job. Trump will destroy him.

7th March 2020, 08:39 PM	#144
Delvo Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: North Tonawanda, NY Posts: 9,279	Originally Posted by Stacyhs We keep being told that Biden has dementia/is in mental decline blah, blah, blah. What do they present as evidence? The same type of things he's been doing for decades. Comparison with himself as recorded years ago; it's nowhere near the same thing.

7th March 2020, 08:42 PM	#145
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 17,972	Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot So you're defending the claim that Biden is in mental decline by saying that he was never quite there mentally? If that is what you got from my posts, then I suggest a course in remedial reading comprehension.

7th March 2020, 08:42 PM	#146
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 24,264	Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot So you're defending the claim that Biden is in mental decline by saying that he was never quite there mentally? Yes, that is what is going on here.

7th March 2020, 08:48 PM	#147
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 17,972	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon “Joe Biden has always been demented.” Yeah, a great presidential candidate. Trump will definitely not dine out on that during the run for the top job. Trump will destroy him. Getting that from what I wrote is like a Rorschach test; funny how people see things so differently.

7th March 2020, 08:51 PM	#148
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 24,264	Originally Posted by Stacyhs Getting that from what I wrote is like a Rorschach test; funny how people see things so differently. It’s hilarious. But seriously. The Dems are better off with a candidate with their wits about them. Trump will wreck Biden and you get another four years.

7th March 2020, 08:52 PM	#149
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 17,972	Originally Posted by Delvo Comparison with himself as recorded years ago; it's nowhere near the same thing. It's a claim easily made yet with no supporting evidence provided. I've yet to see anyone actually provide anything that show he's declined mentally. Media articles say he's always been known for doing exactly what he's doing today..
	Last edited by Stacyhs; 7th March 2020 at 08:57 PM.

7th March 2020, 08:55 PM	#150
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 24,264	Originally Posted by Stacyhs It's a claim easily made yet with no supporting evidence provided. I've yet to see anyone actually provide anything that show he's decline mentally. Media articles say he's always been known for doing exactly what he's doing today.. “He has always been demented.”

7th March 2020, 08:56 PM	#151
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 17,972	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon It’s hilarious. But seriously. The Dems are better off with a candidate with their wits about them. Trump will wreck Biden and you get another four years. Maybe. But you still have failed to provide any evidence that Biden has any form of dementia but your own proclamations. As I've said, to think that Dr. Jill or his family/close friends would support Biden running for POTUS if they thought he wasn't mentally up to it is absurd.

7th March 2020, 08:58 PM	#152
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 17,972	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon “He has always been demented.” You do know that repeating something does not make it true, don't you? If you'd like to actually provide some evidence that Biden has dementia, please do. Otherwise, you're just wasting everyone's time.

7th March 2020, 09:13 PM	#154
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 29,300	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon “Joe Biden has always been demented.” Yeah, a great presidential candidate. Trump will definitely not dine out on that during the run for the top job. Trump will destroy him. You lying dog-faced pony soldier! Look him over and if you don’t like what you see, vote for the other Biden. He’s got hairy legs, he loves kids jumping on his lap and he was VP under president...my boss!
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

7th March 2020, 09:21 PM	#155
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,307	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon Not at all. It is essential. But they should be giving advice to someone with vision and wit. America shouldn’t chose a president who is showing disturbing signs of mental decline. And they should not be choosing a 78 year old with heart issues.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

7th March 2020, 09:23 PM	#156
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,307	I see the Bernie Bros are doing Trump's dirty work for him.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.