[Continuation] The Trump Presidency: Part 19 - Page 8

acbytesla · 3rd January 2020, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Trump is expanding US oil and gas production. That, more than anything else he could do, is weakening Putin. That alone proves he’s not Putin’s puppet. There’s a reason Putin backs environmentalists in the US. Had Trump not been doing that, the other stuff you refer to might be relevant. But he is, so it isn’t.

You're really desperate with that logic.

The Great Zaganza · 3rd January 2020, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Trump is expanding US oil and gas production. That, more than anything else he could do, is weakening Putin. That alone proves he’s not Putin’s puppet. There’s a reason Putin backs environmentalists in the US. Had Trump not been doing that, the other stuff you refer to might be relevant. But he is, so it isn’t.

Obama did that. Trump just didn't undo it.
So no proof at all.

JoeMorgue · 3rd January 2020, 10:32 AM

This is pretty disgusting.

Segnosaur · 3rd January 2020, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

This is pretty disgusting.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ictureid=12330

But the most important thing to remember is that it's the Democrat's impeachment efforts which are dividing the country.

/sarcasm

ETA: Keep in mind that D'Souza was convicted on charges related to illegal campaign financing, and was pardoned by Stubby McBonespurs. So he's not just some random individual making that comment, but someone who has at least some interaction with the Trump administration.

Captain_Swoop · 3rd January 2020, 11:33 AM

Trump Tweeted

Christopher Bedford, The Federalist Senior Editor. “There is NOTHING NEW in these Emails at all that’s been discovered. It’s exactly what we knew before, which is that the White House & political figures wanted to cut off aid, Trump wanted to question aid to a number of....

....different places that he thought were wasteful, and the career staff, as they always do, pushed back, and made a million excuses as to why they could not possibly stop spending U.S. taxpayer money. There was a back & forth over the legal arguments, & the W.H. decision was....

....followed, and then it was withdrawn. The Democrats argument for impeachment has not gotten stronger over the last few weeks. As Senator Josh Hawley just said, he’s going to enter a Motion to Dismiss the Impeachment Trial because it’s never actually been brought to trial.”

dudalb · 3rd January 2020, 11:51 AM

I have been saying from the day of his election Trump will get us into a major war. won't be long until the body bags are coming home.

Stacyhs · 3rd January 2020, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

Honestly, given the Principle of Charity, I understood what he meant in that specific instance.

He's still the man who claimed windmills cause cancer. There is no amount of charity that can excuse that one.

SuburbanTurkey · 3rd January 2020, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

I have been saying from the day of his election Trump will get us into a major war. won't be long until the body bags are coming home.

The cynical side of me wonders if Trump wouldn't just time it such that boots on the ground is only after the election.

The public never really minds the missile and bomb portion of these wars, because it's just tons of money and foreigners getting killed. I could see the mouthbreathing war hawks getting excited about a huge bombardment right before the election. Foot patrols getting IED'd comes later.

Stacyhs · 3rd January 2020, 12:28 PM

We're now being told that the killing of Soleimani was because he was planning an "imminent attack to kill Americans". So far, no details of this alleged imminent attack have been given.

There was a time when we would have believed the POTUS and Sec. of State when they told us why something was done. Now? I don't believe anything either Trump or Pompeo say. Trump has lied so many times that he has no credibility whatsoever and Pompeo is just his arse kissing yes man. When Pompeo assures us that 'the world is a much safer place today' because of Soleimani's death, I put zero stock in it.

Venom · 3rd January 2020, 12:30 PM

That's the problem with Trump.

He's not put in the work to command respect from most of the country. He's done the opposite and when it comes to serious geopolitical issues he undermines the U.S.' already bad reputation even more.

Davidlpf · 3rd January 2020, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Trump is expanding US oil and gas production. That, more than anything else he could do, is weakening Putin. That alone proves he’s not Putin’s puppet. There’s a reason Putin backs environmentalists in the US. Had Trump not been doing that, the other stuff you refer to might be relevant. But he is, so it isn’t.

Hybrid and electric cars can't come soon enough for me.
Plus where did get the kool-aid and how much, it must be nice to live it that world.

Skeptic Ginger · 3rd January 2020, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser

Maybe let Iran bomb a top US general now? After all, clearly this is a normal way to deal with international politics?

What will Trump do if that happens?

Obama used drone attacks all the time. (Not saying I agree with that.) And I looked to see ~20 US soldiers per year have been killed in Iraq without Trump saying a word. Now Trump makes a challenge, Iran killed an American contractor, Macho Trump is going to let Iran know and they will cave-in.

They caved alright, by attacking and burning down half of the US Embassy in Iraq.

Trump not just kills an Iranian general, he does it with this big announcement about how tough he is.

Watch this space.....

How coincidental this all happened when Trump felt his ego under attack with the Impeachment. He wants to be seen as the best POTUS ever. He says it all the time. Now that is marred, despite the fact Trump is denying it's a big deal. He's wagging the dog and it's very dangerous.

Horatius · 3rd January 2020, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

When Iran topics come up on this forum I always feel compelled to jump in. But I have no idea what, in practice, the 2 countries should do to break out of a decades-long stalemate which, many people would agree, has outlived its usefulness.

And that's the worst part of how Trump is dealing with Iran, because we did have something that, in practice, was starting to break us out of this stalemate. But Trump just couldn't let the Iran Deal stand.

It was working, and could have been the basis for even further constructive engagement between Iran and the US, and the rest of the world. But he just had to screw it up to spite Obama.

Lurch · 3rd January 2020, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Trump Tweeted

Christopher Bedford, The Federalist Senior Editor. “There is NOTHING NEW in these Emails at all that’s been discovered. It’s exactly what we knew before, which is that the White House & political figures wanted to cut off aid, Trump wanted to question aid to a number of....

....different places that he thought were wasteful, and the career staff, as they always do, pushed back, and made a million excuses as to why they could not possibly stop spending U.S. taxpayer money. There was a back & forth over the legal arguments, & the W.H. decision was....

....followed, and then it was withdrawn. The Democrats argument for impeachment has not gotten stronger over the last few weeks. As Senator Josh Hawley just said, he’s going to enter a Motion to Dismiss the Impeachment Trial because it’s never actually been brought to trial.”

The Federalist Society. An arm of the GOP. Of course they'll gloss over the illegality of violating a law enacted after Nixon withheld duly released congressional funds out of petty, personal motives.

Even if there were reasons found afterward to hold back on delivering Congressionally-released aid to some country, the WH is not entitled to do this. That's Congress's job.

The Administration's now bleating about how the aid was released (only coincidentally just after the jig was up once the whistleblower report became public, they assure us) only bolsters the evidence that the holdup was for spurious reasons. Has the administration ever proffered a report documenting their (or any other body, for that matter) investigation into the reasons for the holding up of aid, and subsequent propriety of its release? Of course not. That would be illegal, insofar as this is the purview of Congress.

dudalb · 3rd January 2020, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

We're now being told that the killing of Soleimani was because he was planning an "imminent attack to kill Americans". So far, no details of this alleged imminent attack have been given.

There was a time when we would have believed the POTUS and Sec. of State when they told us why something was done. Now? I don't believe anything either Trump or Pompeo say. Trump has lied so many times that he has no credibility whatsoever and Pompeo is just his arse kissing yes man. When Pompeo assures us that 'the world is a much safer place today' because of Soleimani's death, I put zero stock in it.

I shed no tears over Soleimani buying the farm;he had plenty of blood on his hands.
But whether killing him is a wise move is another matter completely. I don't see how his removal solves anything.
It's not like he was irreplaceable genius the way that Yamamoto..another targeted killing... was In World War 2.

Trebuchet · 3rd January 2020, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

I shed no tears over Soleimani buying the farm;he had plenty of blood on his hands.

But whether killing him is a wise move is another matter completely. I don't see how his removal solves anything.

It's not like he was irreplaceable genius the way that Yamamoto..another targeted killing... was In World War 2.

And of course Japan was a country with which we were legally at war.

JoeMorgue · 3rd January 2020, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

And of course Japan was a country with which we were legally at war.

The "legally at war" thing stopped be a distinction soon after either Korean War or WWII depending on how you want to define "legally."

//Still not fully onboard with this particular action per se, just saying

dudalb · 3rd January 2020, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by Horatius

And that's the worst part of how Trump is dealing with Iran, because we did have something that, in practice, was starting to break us out of this stalemate. But Trump just couldn't let the Iran Deal stand.

It was working, and could have been the basis for even further constructive engagement between Iran and the US, and the rest of the world. But he just had to screw it up to spite Obama.

I don't trust Iran one bit, but at least with the deal if they cheated we had a strong case in the court of world opinion.
Donnie threw that away.
Yes, the deal was flawed..my own objection was that it did not deal with Iran's troublemaking n the Mid East;it should have covered a broader territory...but that did not justify Trump's just throwing it away with nothing it it's place.

dudalb · 3rd January 2020, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

The "legally at war" thing stopped be a distinction soon after either Korean War or WWII depending on how you want to define "legally."

//Still not fully onboard with this particular action per se, just saying

Yeah, the classic definition of "war" vanished a long time ago ( of course throughout history countries have engagted in military actions without formally being at war...classic example was the Japanese invasion of China in 1937 the so called "China Incident" where Japan and China waged full scale war without and declrations until December 7 1941, when China finally announced a state of war existed (and that was just because it looked good in the US to do after Pearl Harbor).

I think Trump action here was incredibly stupid and ill though out, and might well have disasterous consquences, but I also think the US should take action if there is a clear and present danger. Problem is I see no clear and p resent danger demanding this kind of "Last Resort" action.

dudalb · 3rd January 2020, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

And of course Japan was a country with which we were legally at war.

Hate to say it, but the formal legal definition of war has been dead for a long time.

Ziggurat · 3rd January 2020, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

Obama did that. Trump just didn't undo it.
So no proof at all.

Well, no. Obama did nothing to expand oil and gas production. It expanded despite him, not because of him. It was driven by technological advances he had no real part in. Trump took action to expand production by opening up federal land to new drilling leases.

Ziggurat · 3rd January 2020, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

I don't trust Iran one bit, but at least with the deal if they cheated we had a strong case in the court of world opinion.

A strong case to do what? Lodge diplomatic protests? Complain at the UN? "World opinion" isn't always very valuable.

acbytesla · 3rd January 2020, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

I shed no tears over Soleimani buying the farm;he had plenty of blood on his hands.
But whether killing him is a wise move is another matter completely. I don't see how his removal solves anything.
It's not like he was irreplaceable genius the way that Yamamoto..another targeted killing... was In World War 2.

I think it was moronic and provocative. It only provides another rallying cry that the Iranian government can use to rally their people.

Steve · 3rd January 2020, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

A strong case to do what? Lodge diplomatic protests? Complain at the UN? "World opinion" isn't always very valuable.

Yeah you’re right. Killing people is the only way forward for the USA.

Ziggurat · 3rd January 2020, 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by Steve

Yeah you’re right. Killing people is the only way forward for the USA.

Killing Soleimani is separate from leaving Obama’s Iran deal. We could have killed him while staying in the deal, or not killed him while leaving the deal.

acbytesla · 3rd January 2020, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Killing Soleimani is separate from leaving Obama’s Iran deal. We could have killed him while staying in the deal, or not killed him while leaving the deal.

The idea that all of this is separate is moronic Zig. The joke is two largest oil producers in the Middle East is Iran and Saudi Arabia. Iran has by far the most pro Western population and yet the US has been screwing over Iran since Mossadegh. Trump has bedded down with the Saudis just like he has been kissing Putin's ass.

Roger Ramjets · 3rd January 2020, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I think it was moronic and provocative. It only provides another rallying cry that the Iranian government can use to rally their people.

And those of who hate America love it!

Skeptic Ginger · 3rd January 2020, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Trump Tweeted

Christopher Bedford, The Federalist Senior Editor. “There is NOTHING NEW in these Emails at all that’s been discovered. It’s exactly what we knew before, which is that the White House & political figures wanted to cut off aid, Trump wanted to question aid to a number of....

....different places that he thought were wasteful, and the career staff, as they always do, pushed back, and made a million excuses as to why they could not possibly stop spending U.S. taxpayer money. There was a back & forth over the legal arguments, & the W.H. decision was....

....followed, and then it was withdrawn. The Democrats argument for impeachment has not gotten stronger over the last few weeks. As Senator Josh Hawley just said, he’s going to enter a Motion to Dismiss the Impeachment Trial because it’s never actually been brought to trial.”

If there was nothing to see there, why all the redactions and statements to keep everything secret?

Another liar for Trump. No surprise given Trump is letting the Federalist Society stack the courts.

Skeptic Ginger · 3rd January 2020, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by Lurch

The [GOP an arm of the] Federalist Society. ....

ftfy

Steve · 3rd January 2020, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

And those of who hate America love it!

Of course they do.

You do realize that most of the world are not big fans of America at the moment?

Stacyhs · 3rd January 2020, 07:27 PM

I'm wondering if this assassination was done specifically to make the impeachment more difficult. Bush was not popular before 9/11 but his approval rating soared afterward. Could this have been a calculated move to make Trump appear as if he has 'saved' Americans from this (alleged) "imminent and sinister" attack that he and Pompeo claim was about to occur? In is announcement, Trump stressed how 'under (his) leadership' this alleged attack was stopped. I seriously doubt Trump thought through the possible/likely consequences of this action and was more concerned about the good press he thought this would bring him.

Stacyhs · 3rd January 2020, 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by Steve

Of course they do.

You do realize that most of the world are not big fans of America at the moment?

What? Are you saying that the US is not respected worldwide again? How can that be when Trump has told us otherwise? He wouldn't lie...would he?

Steve · 3rd January 2020, 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

What? Are you saying that the US is not respected worldwide again? How can that be when Trump has told us otherwise? He wouldn't lie...would he?

My mistake. You are right. If Trump can’t be counted on there is no future for humanity.

acbytesla · 3rd January 2020, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

I'm wondering if this assassination was done specifically to make the impeachment more difficult. Bush was not popular before 9/11 but his approval rating soared afterward. Could this have been a calculated move to make Trump appear as if he has 'saved' Americans from this (alleged) "imminent and sinister" attack that he and Pompeo claim was about to occur? In is announcement, Trump stressed how 'under (his) leadership' this alleged attack was stopped. I seriously doubt Trump thought through the possible/likely consequences of this action and was more concerned about the good press he thought this would bring him.

The smartest thing Iran could do at this moment is not to react. But Trump seems committed to provoking them into launching some kind of revenge attack. As I see breaking news of another attack on a paramilitary Iranian unit.

Stacyhs · 3rd January 2020, 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

The smartest thing Iran could do at this moment is not to react. But Trump seems committed to provoking them into launching some kind of revenge attack. As I see breaking news of another attack on a paramilitary Iranian unit.

WWI started after an assassination of an Austrian archduke and his wife. Few realized what it would lead to.

acbytesla · 3rd January 2020, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

WWI started after an assassination of an Austrian archduke and his wife. Few realized what it would lead to.

Yep. Serbian Archduke Franz Ferdinand by Gavrilo Princip.

I doubt this will cause WWIII, but it wouldn't shock me that we'll be at war in the middle east soon. All because Trump is an idiot with balls but severely lacking in brains. And our usual NATO Allies will not be along side us. But Russia and Saudi Arabia will be cheering us on.

JoeMorgue · 3rd January 2020, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

WWI started after an assassination of an Austrian archduke and his wife. Few realized what it would lead to.

Oh this is completely different.

Post Napoleonic War Europe was a mishmash of dying Empires and rising industrial powers interlinked with a complicated network of treaties and agreements trying to cover a history of ethnic and religious hatred going back decades, all so haphazardly balanced but poorly understood that the first thing that went wrong was going to cause it collapse under it's own weight, all caught between growing powers exerting their influence over the world.

The Middle East is a mishmash of dying Empires and rising industrial powers interlinked with a complicated network of treaties and agreements trying to cover a history of ethnic and religious hatred going back centuries, all so haphazardly balanced but poorly understood that the first thing that goes wrong is going to cause it collapse under it's own weight, all caught between growing powers exerting their influence over the world.

See? Completely different.

Stacyhs · 3rd January 2020, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Yep. Serbian Archduke Franz Ferdinand by Gavrilo Princip.

I doubt this will cause WWIII, but it wouldn't shock me that we'll be at war in the middle east soon. All because Trump is an idiot with balls but severely lacking in brains. And our usual NATO Allies will not be along side us. But Russia and Saudi Arabia will be cheering us on.

No, he was Austrian but killed in Serbia by a Serbian anarchist.

I long ago gave up predicting what would happen in the ME.

SezMe · 3rd January 2020, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

So, remember Edward Gallagher - the SEAL who was charged with stabbing to death a child who lay in a hospital bed and convicted of posing for photographs with the corpse, who Trump then pardoned? Well, he's got his own clothing line now. This twitter thread highlights issues with that and the way it's being reported.

From the tweet: 'coastal lifestyle brand". I thought the Deplorables hated the coastal elites.

Ziggurat · 3rd January 2020, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

The Middle East is a mishmash of dying Empires and rising industrial powers interlinked with a complicated network of treaties and agreements

Yeah, no. Middle eastern empires are all long dead. The only rising industrial power in the region is Israel. And there are very few treaties tying any of them together.

3rd January 2020, 09:12 AM	#281
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,174	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Trump is expanding US oil and gas production. That, more than anything else he could do, is weakening Putin. That alone proves he’s not Putin’s puppet. There’s a reason Putin backs environmentalists in the US. Had Trump not been doing that, the other stuff you refer to might be relevant. But he is, so it isn’t. You're really desperate with that logic.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

3rd January 2020, 09:19 AM	#282
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 14,612	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Trump is expanding US oil and gas production. That, more than anything else he could do, is weakening Putin. That alone proves he’s not Putin’s puppet. There’s a reason Putin backs environmentalists in the US. Had Trump not been doing that, the other stuff you refer to might be relevant. But he is, so it isn’t. Obama did that. Trump just didn't undo it. So no proof at all.
	__________________ So what are you going to do about it, huh? What would an intellectual do? What would Plato do?

3rd January 2020, 10:32 AM	#283
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,557	This is pretty disgusting.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

3rd January 2020, 10:34 AM	#284
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 17,095	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue This is pretty disgusting. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ictureid=12330 But the most important thing to remember is that it's the Democrat's impeachment efforts which are dividing the country. /sarcasm ETA: Keep in mind that D'Souza was convicted on charges related to illegal campaign financing, and was pardoned by Stubby McBonespurs. So he's not just some random individual making that comment, but someone who has at least some interaction with the Trump administration.
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot Last edited by Segnosaur; 3rd January 2020 at 10:37 AM.

3rd January 2020, 11:51 AM	#286
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,307	I have been saying from the day of his election Trump will get us into a major war. won't be long until the body bags are coming home.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

3rd January 2020, 11:33 AM	#285
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 31,828	Trump Tweeted Christopher Bedford, The Federalist Senior Editor. “There is NOTHING NEW in these Emails at all that’s been discovered. It’s exactly what we knew before, which is that the White House & political figures wanted to cut off aid, Trump wanted to question aid to a number of.... ....different places that he thought were wasteful, and the career staff, as they always do, pushed back, and made a million excuses as to why they could not possibly stop spending U.S. taxpayer money. There was a back & forth over the legal arguments, & the W.H. decision was.... ....followed, and then it was withdrawn. The Democrats argument for impeachment has not gotten stronger over the last few weeks. As Senator Josh Hawley just said, he’s going to enter a Motion to Dismiss the Impeachment Trial because it’s never actually been brought to trial.”

3rd January 2020, 12:13 PM	#287
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 17,972	Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B Honestly, given the Principle of Charity, I understood what he meant in that specific instance. He's still the man who claimed windmills cause cancer. There is no amount of charity that can excuse that one.

3rd January 2020, 12:25 PM	#288
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 7,893	Originally Posted by dudalb I have been saying from the day of his election Trump will get us into a major war. won't be long until the body bags are coming home. The cynical side of me wonders if Trump wouldn't just time it such that boots on the ground is only after the election. The public never really minds the missile and bomb portion of these wars, because it's just tons of money and foreigners getting killed. I could see the mouthbreathing war hawks getting excited about a huge bombardment right before the election. Foot patrols getting IED'd comes later.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

3rd January 2020, 12:28 PM	#289
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 17,972	We're now being told that the killing of Soleimani was because he was planning an "imminent attack to kill Americans". So far, no details of this alleged imminent attack have been given. There was a time when we would have believed the POTUS and Sec. of State when they told us why something was done. Now? I don't believe anything either Trump or Pompeo say. Trump has lied so many times that he has no credibility whatsoever and Pompeo is just his arse kissing yes man. When Pompeo assures us that 'the world is a much safer place today' because of Soleimani's death, I put zero stock in it.

3rd January 2020, 12:30 PM	#290
Venom Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: United States Posts: 4,887	That's the problem with Trump. He's not put in the work to command respect from most of the country. He's done the opposite and when it comes to serious geopolitical issues he undermines the U.S.' already bad reputation even more.

3rd January 2020, 01:43 PM	#291
Davidlpf Muse Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 624	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Trump is expanding US oil and gas production. That, more than anything else he could do, is weakening Putin. That alone proves he’s not Putin’s puppet. There’s a reason Putin backs environmentalists in the US. Had Trump not been doing that, the other stuff you refer to might be relevant. But he is, so it isn’t. Hybrid and electric cars can't come soon enough for me. Plus where did get the kool-aid and how much, it must be nice to live it that world.
Davidlpf Muse Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 624	__________________ http://davidsuniverse.wordpress.com/

3rd January 2020, 01:46 PM	#292
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,766	Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser Maybe let Iran bomb a top US general now? After all, clearly this is a normal way to deal with international politics? What will Trump do if that happens? Obama used drone attacks all the time. (Not saying I agree with that.) And I looked to see ~20 US soldiers per year have been killed in Iraq without Trump saying a word. Now Trump makes a challenge, Iran killed an American contractor, Macho Trump is going to let Iran know and they will cave-in. They caved alright, by attacking and burning down half of the US Embassy in Iraq. Trump not just kills an Iranian general, he does it with this big announcement about how tough he is. Watch this space..... How coincidental this all happened when Trump felt his ego under attack with the Impeachment. He wants to be seen as the best POTUS ever. He says it all the time. Now that is marred, despite the fact Trump is denying it's a big deal. He's wagging the dog and it's very dangerous.

3rd January 2020, 01:47 PM	#293
Horatius NWO Kitty Wrangler Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 29,006	Originally Posted by Minoosh When Iran topics come up on this forum I always feel compelled to jump in. But I have no idea what, in practice, the 2 countries should do to break out of a decades-long stalemate which, many people would agree, has outlived its usefulness. And that's the worst part of how Trump is dealing with Iran, because we did have something that, in practice, was starting to break us out of this stalemate. But Trump just couldn't let the Iran Deal stand. It was working, and could have been the basis for even further constructive engagement between Iran and the US, and the rest of the world. But he just had to screw it up to spite Obama.
	__________________ Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd

3rd January 2020, 01:49 PM	#294
Lurch Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Ottawa Posts: 1,646	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Trump Tweeted Christopher Bedford, The Federalist Senior Editor. “There is NOTHING NEW in these Emails at all that’s been discovered. It’s exactly what we knew before, which is that the White House & political figures wanted to cut off aid, Trump wanted to question aid to a number of.... ....different places that he thought were wasteful, and the career staff, as they always do, pushed back, and made a million excuses as to why they could not possibly stop spending U.S. taxpayer money. There was a back & forth over the legal arguments, & the W.H. decision was.... ....followed, and then it was withdrawn. The Democrats argument for impeachment has not gotten stronger over the last few weeks. As Senator Josh Hawley just said, he’s going to enter a Motion to Dismiss the Impeachment Trial because it’s never actually been brought to trial.” The Federalist Society. An arm of the GOP. Of course they'll gloss over the illegality of violating a law enacted after Nixon withheld duly released congressional funds out of petty, personal motives. Even if there were reasons found afterward to hold back on delivering Congressionally-released aid to some country, the WH is not entitled to do this. That's Congress's job. The Administration's now bleating about how the aid was released (only coincidentally just after the jig was up once the whistleblower report became public, they assure us) only bolsters the evidence that the holdup was for spurious reasons. Has the administration ever proffered a report documenting their (or any other body, for that matter) investigation into the reasons for the holding up of aid, and subsequent propriety of its release? Of course not. That would be illegal, insofar as this is the purview of Congress.

3rd January 2020, 01:59 PM	#295
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,307	Originally Posted by Stacyhs We're now being told that the killing of Soleimani was because he was planning an "imminent attack to kill Americans". So far, no details of this alleged imminent attack have been given. There was a time when we would have believed the POTUS and Sec. of State when they told us why something was done. Now? I don't believe anything either Trump or Pompeo say. Trump has lied so many times that he has no credibility whatsoever and Pompeo is just his arse kissing yes man. When Pompeo assures us that 'the world is a much safer place today' because of Soleimani's death, I put zero stock in it. I shed no tears over Soleimani buying the farm;he had plenty of blood on his hands. But whether killing him is a wise move is another matter completely. I don't see how his removal solves anything. It's not like he was irreplaceable genius the way that Yamamoto..another targeted killing... was In World War 2.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

3rd January 2020, 02:33 PM	#296
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 30,980	Originally Posted by dudalb I shed no tears over Soleimani buying the farm;he had plenty of blood on his hands. But whether killing him is a wise move is another matter completely. I don't see how his removal solves anything. It's not like he was irreplaceable genius the way that Yamamoto..another targeted killing... was In World War 2. And of course Japan was a country with which we were legally at war.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

3rd January 2020, 02:39 PM	#297
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,557	Originally Posted by Trebuchet And of course Japan was a country with which we were legally at war. The "legally at war" thing stopped be a distinction soon after either Korean War or WWII depending on how you want to define "legally." //Still not fully onboard with this particular action per se, just saying
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

3rd January 2020, 03:59 PM	#298
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,307	Originally Posted by Horatius And that's the worst part of how Trump is dealing with Iran, because we did have something that, in practice, was starting to break us out of this stalemate. But Trump just couldn't let the Iran Deal stand. It was working, and could have been the basis for even further constructive engagement between Iran and the US, and the rest of the world. But he just had to screw it up to spite Obama. I don't trust Iran one bit, but at least with the deal if they cheated we had a strong case in the court of world opinion. Donnie threw that away. Yes, the deal was flawed..my own objection was that it did not deal with Iran's troublemaking n the Mid East;it should have covered a broader territory...but that did not justify Trump's just throwing it away with nothing it it's place.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

3rd January 2020, 04:06 PM	#299
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,307	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue The "legally at war" thing stopped be a distinction soon after either Korean War or WWII depending on how you want to define "legally." //Still not fully onboard with this particular action per se, just saying Yeah, the classic definition of "war" vanished a long time ago ( of course throughout history countries have engagted in military actions without formally being at war...classic example was the Japanese invasion of China in 1937 the so called "China Incident" where Japan and China waged full scale war without and declrations until December 7 1941, when China finally announced a state of war existed (and that was just because it looked good in the US to do after Pearl Harbor). I think Trump action here was incredibly stupid and ill though out, and might well have disasterous consquences, but I also think the US should take action if there is a clear and present danger. Problem is I see no clear and p resent danger demanding this kind of "Last Resort" action.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

3rd January 2020, 04:08 PM	#300
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,307	Originally Posted by Trebuchet And of course Japan was a country with which we were legally at war. Hate to say it, but the formal legal definition of war has been dead for a long time.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

3rd January 2020, 06:18 PM	#301
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,256	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza Obama did that. Trump just didn't undo it. So no proof at all. Well, no. Obama did nothing to expand oil and gas production. It expanded despite him, not because of him. It was driven by technological advances he had no real part in. Trump took action to expand production by opening up federal land to new drilling leases.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

3rd January 2020, 06:20 PM	#302
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,256	Originally Posted by dudalb I don't trust Iran one bit, but at least with the deal if they cheated we had a strong case in the court of world opinion. A strong case to do what? Lodge diplomatic protests? Complain at the UN? "World opinion" isn't always very valuable.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

3rd January 2020, 06:25 PM	#303
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,174	Originally Posted by dudalb I shed no tears over Soleimani buying the farm;he had plenty of blood on his hands. But whether killing him is a wise move is another matter completely. I don't see how his removal solves anything. It's not like he was irreplaceable genius the way that Yamamoto..another targeted killing... was In World War 2. I think it was moronic and provocative. It only provides another rallying cry that the Iranian government can use to rally their people.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

3rd January 2020, 06:27 PM	#304
Steve Philosopher Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 8,320	Originally Posted by Ziggurat A strong case to do what? Lodge diplomatic protests? Complain at the UN? "World opinion" isn't always very valuable. Yeah you’re right. Killing people is the only way forward for the USA.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

3rd January 2020, 06:33 PM	#305
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,256	Originally Posted by Steve Yeah you’re right. Killing people is the only way forward for the USA. Killing Soleimani is separate from leaving Obama’s Iran deal. We could have killed him while staying in the deal, or not killed him while leaving the deal.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

3rd January 2020, 06:46 PM	#306
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,174	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Killing Soleimani is separate from leaving Obama’s Iran deal. We could have killed him while staying in the deal, or not killed him while leaving the deal. The idea that all of this is separate is moronic Zig. The joke is two largest oil producers in the Middle East is Iran and Saudi Arabia. Iran has by far the most pro Western population and yet the US has been screwing over Iran since Mossadegh. Trump has bedded down with the Saudis just like he has been kissing Putin's ass.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

3rd January 2020, 06:50 PM	#307
Roger Ramjets Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 5,328	Originally Posted by acbytesla I think it was moronic and provocative. It only provides another rallying cry that the Iranian government can use to rally their people. And those of who hate America love it!
	__________________ We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.

3rd January 2020, 06:53 PM	#308
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,766	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Trump Tweeted Christopher Bedford, The Federalist Senior Editor. “There is NOTHING NEW in these Emails at all that’s been discovered. It’s exactly what we knew before, which is that the White House & political figures wanted to cut off aid, Trump wanted to question aid to a number of.... ....different places that he thought were wasteful, and the career staff, as they always do, pushed back, and made a million excuses as to why they could not possibly stop spending U.S. taxpayer money. There was a back & forth over the legal arguments, & the W.H. decision was.... ....followed, and then it was withdrawn. The Democrats argument for impeachment has not gotten stronger over the last few weeks. As Senator Josh Hawley just said, he’s going to enter a Motion to Dismiss the Impeachment Trial because it’s never actually been brought to trial.” If there was nothing to see there, why all the redactions and statements to keep everything secret? Another liar for Trump. No surprise given Trump is letting the Federalist Society stack the courts.

3rd January 2020, 06:56 PM	#309
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,766	Originally Posted by Lurch The [GOP an arm of the] Federalist Society. .... ftfy

3rd January 2020, 07:17 PM	#310
Steve Philosopher Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 8,320	Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets And those of who hate America love it! Of course they do. You do realize that most of the world are not big fans of America at the moment?
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

3rd January 2020, 07:27 PM	#311
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 17,972	I'm wondering if this assassination was done specifically to make the impeachment more difficult. Bush was not popular before 9/11 but his approval rating soared afterward. Could this have been a calculated move to make Trump appear as if he has 'saved' Americans from this (alleged) "imminent and sinister" attack that he and Pompeo claim was about to occur? In is announcement, Trump stressed how 'under (his) leadership' this alleged attack was stopped. I seriously doubt Trump thought through the possible/likely consequences of this action and was more concerned about the good press he thought this would bring him.

3rd January 2020, 07:29 PM	#312
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 17,972	Originally Posted by Steve Of course they do. You do realize that most of the world are not big fans of America at the moment? What? Are you saying that the US is not respected worldwide again? How can that be when Trump has told us otherwise? He wouldn't lie...would he?

3rd January 2020, 07:33 PM	#313
Steve Philosopher Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 8,320	Originally Posted by Stacyhs What? Are you saying that the US is not respected worldwide again? How can that be when Trump has told us otherwise? He wouldn't lie...would he? My mistake. You are right. If Trump can’t be counted on there is no future for humanity.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

3rd January 2020, 07:39 PM	#314
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,174	Originally Posted by Stacyhs I'm wondering if this assassination was done specifically to make the impeachment more difficult. Bush was not popular before 9/11 but his approval rating soared afterward. Could this have been a calculated move to make Trump appear as if he has 'saved' Americans from this (alleged) "imminent and sinister" attack that he and Pompeo claim was about to occur? In is announcement, Trump stressed how 'under (his) leadership' this alleged attack was stopped. I seriously doubt Trump thought through the possible/likely consequences of this action and was more concerned about the good press he thought this would bring him. The smartest thing Iran could do at this moment is not to react. But Trump seems committed to provoking them into launching some kind of revenge attack. As I see breaking news of another attack on a paramilitary Iranian unit.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

3rd January 2020, 08:12 PM	#315
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 17,972	Originally Posted by acbytesla The smartest thing Iran could do at this moment is not to react. But Trump seems committed to provoking them into launching some kind of revenge attack. As I see breaking news of another attack on a paramilitary Iranian unit. WWI started after an assassination of an Austrian archduke and his wife. Few realized what it would lead to.