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#281 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 28,256
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Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . |
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#282 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 4,896
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Why do you think Bernie Sanders cannot win a general election?
He's basically in the same position Obama was in after 8 years of Bush, which 4 years of Trump more or less feels like. He's in that Obama niche. And like Obama, he's running on a progressive platform. The difference is unlike Obama he's not going to sit back passively if the Republicans try to resist his agenda. He's old yes, but he makes up for that with more name recognition than Obama had when he first ran. |
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#283 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 4,896
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#284 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86,927
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Biden will fail the minute the GOP starts attacking him. They have an immense amount of ammunition.
Bloomberg or Steyer. Sanders has a good chance with his following provided the GOP isn't successful with the socialism scare-mongering. But they will try and Sanders is vulnerable. |
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#285 |
Crazy Little Green Dragon
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Coast, US
Posts: 7,450
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To disagree a bit, I think that Warren definitely could win. I'm not so sure about Biden and Bernie. Biden because, well, first and foremost, he's not inspiring. Just about no one actually wants him, but they're cynically willing to support him. Furthermore, his ground game seems particularly weak and his fundraising was... meh, especially given how much time and effort he's put in. Going further, the portion of his campaign fundraising that's from big money is quite problematic, He's was at roughly Warren's level of fundraising from overwhelmingly fewer donors. On the both positive and negative side, of note, the Russians are focusing on him most of all in their ongoing attacks.
Bernie, well, Bernie's something of a wildcard. He has a great grassroots organization and excellent fundraising. But... I share the concerns of that older black voter.
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So sayeth the crazy little dragon. |
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#286 |
Crazy Little Green Dragon
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Coast, US
Posts: 7,450
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So sayeth the crazy little dragon. |
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#287 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 4,896
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Bloomberg and Steyer are stale and their billionaire status and Bloomberg's sensitive record might hurt them.
Biden will fizzle out. I hope Warren drops out soon and endorses Sanders. |
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#288 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86,927
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#289 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86,927
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#290 |
Maledictorian
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 14,667
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Forget "Electability"
Many past (and current) Presidents were considered undetectable until they won the nomination, and sometimes not even then. |
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So what are you going to do about it, huh? What would an intellectual do? What would Plato do? |
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#291 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,332
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Again, stop worrying about the "socialism" label. The Republicans have already decided the entire Democratic Party is a bunch of socialists. McConnell went on Chris Wallace's show na few months ago and said Biden would bring socialism. Someone (McCarty?) this weekend accused Buttigieg of being a socialist.
You know what will make that socialism label hurt the Dems? By recoiling every time the Republicans trot it out. Getting super defensive about it, because then the Weakling will make the whole election about socialism. The Dems will wilt and constantly stumble over themselves trying to explain it away, no matter who the nominee is. Whoever the nominee is, the entire party has to back them and not shy away from whatever stupid label gets thrown around. |
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SuburbanNerd A blog for making tech make sense |
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#292 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: North American prairie
Posts: 2,202
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Trump and pals have mastered the social media. You just shout out slogans on Twitter. If you mention socialism, you lose. If you don't mention socialism, they win over all the people they won last time. Just by repeating the slogan. Because people fear socialism. The government is going to tell you how to do everything and no "freedom."
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I've deleted the one blog link. You can find the humor blog by searching "the kari report blogspot." Politics blog: https://esapolitics.blogspot.com/ |
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#293 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 15,429
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It's not who will they use that attack against -- yes, any candidate will be on the receiving end. It's the degree to which it sticks. Bernie is uniquely problematic due to his self identification, reinforced by his policies. It may be that what he brings will offset that effect. I dunno but it's something that concerns me.
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To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
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#294 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,664
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Taking this a step back even further and broader politics and discussion therefore is hurt a lot these days because we're still using terms that were established in their current, modern usage by Political Scientists back, mostly, in the mid-1800s and their usage, while not like technically wrong, is often not exactly right either in this day and age and we should be beholden to them as if they are natural laws.
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#295 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,332
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I mean, FDR had an openly socialist VP in the goddamned 1940s. Perhaps if the Dems actually got out in front of something and shaped the narrative themselves*, they might actually be able to sell their policies as good for the American people.
* this would require a level of competence we have yet to see from DNC leadership. |
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SuburbanNerd A blog for making tech make sense |
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#296 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,664
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Cory Booker has officially ended his campaign for President, about 6 months after everyone who isn't named Cory Booker already forgot the last time they thought about Cory Booker running for President.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/13/polit...ace/index.html |
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#297 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,332
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There was a documentary years ago called Street Fight about his campaign for mayor of Newark. It really endeared him to me and my wife. I think he's too cozy with the pharma industry and he's corny as hell, but I also think he's as fake as I have seen some people say. He's just been eaten up by the machine.
He's young and charismatic enough to come back in the future. |
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SuburbanNerd A blog for making tech make sense |
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#298 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 49,631
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Also, socialism in the 40s wasn't the damaged goods it became later, when the excesses and horrors of Soviet communism became more widely known and acknowledged as such.
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#299 | |||
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 5,250
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For a fair number of people, they're just buzzwords, with no understanding of what they mean anyway. "He's a Socialist!!" "What does Socialism mean?" "Uh ... bad things."
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#300 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Townsend, Washington
Posts: 31,038
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With Trump being the most recent example.
This. They'll decry Bloomberg as a Socialist every bit as much as they will Sanders. And then there'll be that ((())) thing for both of them. That'll be much more subtle. We are being absolutely bombarded with Bloomberg ads, BTW. He must think my state has some importance now that the primary has been moved up. |
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Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant. |
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#301 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,664
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We've been getting a Bloomberg ad pretty much every commercial break here in Florida for a while now.
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#302 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,664
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True we are dealing with two loosely related but distinctly different things.
1. We're using terms formalized in about the 1860s to describe political, social, and economic structures in 2020 which is, at best, imperfect. 2. People are stupid and emotionally attached to words beyond their literal dictionary meaning or practical real world applicable meaning. Like here in the States if you ask the public in any context how much we should spend on helping the poor and how much we should spend on Welfare you're going to just radically different answers despite those being the same question. |
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#303 |
"más divertido"
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA! USA!
Posts: 22,786
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#304 |
Not a doctor.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 22,518
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Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake. |
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#305 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 5,250
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There was a poll a few years ago, and some people had a negative opinion of ObamaCare and a positive opinion of the Affordable Care Act. One was a federal program to give free health care to lazy, undeserving people. The other was a system of state exchanges that helped people get affordable health insurance. In their minds. |
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#306 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,332
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SuburbanNerd A blog for making tech make sense |
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#307 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 49,631
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To some people, "socialism" was a dirty word from its inception.
It'd be interesting to see if these attacks on the New Deal were attacks on socialism generally, or on the New Deal specifically. I'm not at all interested in arguments of the form, "the New Deal is what we'd call socialist today, so contemporary attacks on it must be understood as attacks on socialism per se." If that turns out to be your argument, let's save ourselves a lot of time and skip past the three pages of bickering and get straight to the part where we still don't agree. |
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#308 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,332
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SuburbanNerd A blog for making tech make sense |
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#309 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 4,896
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Nixon was a socialist plant.
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#310 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 17,113
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Booker books out!
From: https://www.vox.com/2020/1/13/208870...-for-president Cory Booker spent the majority of his presidential campaign delivering an urgently upbeat message: That love could prevail and help heal a divided nation. Ultimately, that strategy didn’t work; the New Jersey senator announced Monday he’s ending his campaign after consistently low numbers in national and early state polls. A shame. Given the field of candidates, he probably would have been my first choice (well, if I were American). Experienced, didn't appear to have any huge skeletons in his closet, progressive in some ways, moderate in others. ETA: Woops... overlooked another posting here that mentioned it. |
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Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot |
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#311 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 48,330
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#312 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,664
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#313 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 17,113
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You are right... whomever the Democrats select will get tarred with the 'socialist' label, regardless of where they are on the political spectrum. However, there have been polls that show Americans would not be willing to vote for a 'socialist'. (Of course, this doesn't mean that Americans are opposed to social democrat policies; it just means that the name/label seems to be an effective deterrent, even if people don't really understand the meaning.)
From: https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-amer...not-vote-for-a In a new Hill.TV/HarrisX American Barometer poll released Tuesday, an overwhelming majority of respondents, 76 percent, said they would not vote for a “socialist” political candidate... |
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Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot |
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#314 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 28,256
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Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . |
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#315 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 4,896
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Booker had a solidly progressive record in criminal justice.
He didn't have the backing and energy to make it. |
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#316 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 28,256
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I don't buy your first line. I'm jot a big fan of Bloomberg or Steyer...I do like Steyer better than Bloomberg. I really wish that Buttigieg wasn't gay. Because if he wasn't, I feel he's the one Democrat who would crush Trump.
If I could select the one I would prefer the most to be POTUS, I'd choose Warren. Second, I'd pick Buttigieg or Klobuchar. But choosing the nominee is a different decision. I want the person who will win. And I definitely think Sanders would get crushed like a bug. |
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Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . |
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#317 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 5,355
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I'll trot it out again:
“For every blue-collar Democrat we lose in western Pennsylvania, we will pick up two moderate Republicans in the suburbs in Philadelphia, and you can repeat that in Ohio and Illinois and Wisconsin.” -Chuck Schumer Don't fall for it Charlie Brown, you know she's going to pull the ball away. |
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#318 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 28,256
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I don't buy your argument. We just saw what happened in the UK. I saw what happened when the Dems nominated McGovern. I've watched every time the GOP in my state ran an ultra right wing conservative candidate for Governor or Senator. They get crushed.
A super liberal might have a chance if they are the right messenger. But Sanders is not that messenger. He comes off like a decrepit old Doc Brown from Back to the Future. And I like Bernie a lot. |
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Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . |
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#319 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 86,927
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The problem with ignoring the socialism label is it triggers a whole slew of voters to run in terror.
My brother who isn't particularly political told me years ago that "Obama is a socialist" and nothing I could say would make him change that view. And neither Warren nor Sanders have countered the threat the cost of Medicare for all is being cited as. They can be as right as rain but if the messaging fails then no one will know it. The (right-wing) Hill 2018: Poll: Majority of Americans say they would not vote for a 'socialist'
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#320 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 28,256
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Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . |
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