Biden for President? - Page 11

Bob001 · 10th March 2020, 02:02 AM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

I haven't read the original article... paywall... but I have read other versions of the story, such as: https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/8/21...etweeted-trump
....

More recently:

Quote:

WASHINGTON — A manipulated video featuring Joseph R. Biden Jr. and spread by President Trump over the weekend has ratcheted up an online war that has put Twitter and Facebook in the middle of a debate over political speech.
.....
The video came from a stump speech by Mr. Biden on Saturday in Kansas City, Mo., where he appeared to struggle through a sentence and with halting words said, “We can only re-elect Donald Trump.”

But the rest of Mr. Biden’s sentence was selectively edited out. In full, Mr. Biden was stressing the need for Democrats to unite against Mr. Trump.

“We can only re-elect Donald Trump if in fact we get engaged in this circular firing squad here. It’s got to be a positive campaign,” he said.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/09/t...deo-trump.html

Sideroxylon · 10th March 2020, 02:44 AM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Fine. You don't want to answer the question. Got it.

We got there finally.

Distracted1 · 10th March 2020, 03:55 AM

Originally Posted by Cain

Whoa, whoa, whoa, can we just calm down for a moment and try to be fair to both sides? Get out of your own headspace and try to see the world through the eyes of others. Democrats are (likely) going to choose Biden simply because they think he has a better chance in a general election, and Republicans are going to back Trump because they're evil.

Whoa there!
Logical fallacy alert!
Not all Republicans are evil- only the ones who support Trump are.
It's your classic "all A's are B's" not meaning that "all B's are A's".
Glad I could help.

Belz... · 10th March 2020, 04:27 AM

Originally Posted by Elagabalus

I did address it.

Posting fiction in response to an actual argument about elections is not "addressing" it, no.

Belz... · 10th March 2020, 04:29 AM

Originally Posted by Cabbage

I never missed dudalb's point

In that case by all means: what was dudalb's point?

Quote:

I simply responded with a point of my own

Since your point was completely unrelated to his, and you didn't miss his point, why did you choose to answer with this specific point?

Belz... · 10th March 2020, 04:35 AM

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

Horse hockey.

I would definitely watch that.

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Just need to overlook him being a lying scumbag flake but yeah vague promises of “modest reforms.” What a presidential candidate! What a platform!

An America that offers a fair deal for working Americans must be relegated to the too hard basket because the establishment says no. Bend over and like it.

This is not an answer to the post you quoted. It's just a rant that fails to address the points completely.

We get it: Biden isn't your cup of tea and is far from ideal. That's not the point. The point is that he could get things done were he to try. Sanders would be hard pressed to find any support in Congress. Then what happens to your glorious reforms?

Belz... · 10th March 2020, 04:39 AM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Just a warning I will report posts that personalise arguments. Don’t make this about me.

You understand that we're allowed to discuss personal feelings and information, right?

Quote:

We got there finally.

The time it took is entirely because the first post I quoted here didn't read "I'd rather not answer that question", but was rather a passive-aggressive bait. You did that deliberately, and then implied that Stacy's the one at fault.

Sideroxylon · 10th March 2020, 04:49 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

I would definitely watch that.

This is not an answer to the post you quoted. It's just a rant that fails to address the points completely.

We get it: Biden isn't your cup of tea and is far from ideal. That's not the point. The point is that he could get things done were he to try. Sanders would be hard pressed to find any support in Congress. Then what happens to your glorious reforms?

Yeah liars and plagiarists are not my cup of tea.

Delphic Oracle · 10th March 2020, 04:52 AM

Originally Posted by Bob001

More recently:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/09/t...deo-trump.html

Attacks on Sanders: the Republicans will do worse to him!

Attacks on Biden: guise, don't circular firing squad!

Same issue as every time I hear advocates for social and economic justice get told they are engaging in class warfare.

We were already at war, what you didn't like is us fighting back.

So I'll grant you he didn't flub the line as badly as purported. But it was overall an awful delivery. Yes that is relevant because as Biden supporters themselves like to point out, electability is a factor.

At the same time, I give Joe less than zero credibility on the "we have to be nice to each other or Trump will win!" issue. Because that, in and of itself, is an embedded attack line.

TragicMonkey · 10th March 2020, 05:06 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

I would definitely watch that.

This is not an answer to the post you quoted. It's just a rant that fails to address the points completely.

We get it: Biden isn't your cup of tea and is far from ideal. That's not the point. The point is that he could get things done were he to try. Sanders would be hard pressed to find any support in Congress. Then what happens to your glorious reforms?

What on earth makes you think Biden "could get things done"? Do you think the Senate's going to flip? Or that Biden can succeed in getting Republicans to play nicely? Have you forgotten how they acted for both of Obama's terms? Have you forgotten how they've stopped everything coming out of the House today?

Biden won't get anything more done than Sanders will.

Eta: my point is that it's irrelevant how many Democrats support the next president, so the functional difference between Sanders and Biden is zero.

Belz... · 10th March 2020, 05:10 AM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Yeah liars and plagiarists are not my cup of tea.

Yeah, I already said that. How about you address the point? This is the second time that you evade it.

Belz... · 10th March 2020, 05:11 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

What on earth makes you think Biden "could get things done"?

For pete's sake, man. That's already been addressed. Didn't you follow the conversation?

Quote:

Do you think the Senate's going to flip?

I have no idea, but I do hope it will.

Quote:

Or that Biden can succeed in getting Republicans to play nicely?

No way.

Quote:

Biden won't get anything more done than Sanders will.

If Democrats control Congress, of course he will. Sanders is an outsider; Biden would have more chances of getting the party to play ball.

I don't know why it's so hard for some to understand.

TragicMonkey · 10th March 2020, 05:21 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

For pete's sake, man. That's already been addressed. Didn't you follow the conversation?

I have no idea, but I do hope it will.

No way.

If Democrats control Congress, of course he will. Sanders is an outsider; Biden would have more chances of getting the party to play ball.

I don't know why it's so hard for some to understand.

I don't think you're qualified to lecture others on American politics if you don't know that Congress is composed of two houses and legislation has to pass both. A hostile Senate renders a friendly House moot.

Suddenly · 10th March 2020, 05:23 AM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Hyperbole for sure. But how much of a pass Does Biden get as the establishment pick? What does the 1988 campaign tell us of his character?

1988 can go fly a kite. The whole thing seems quaint at this point. We used to be really worried about Dan Quayle too.

I don't think it is hyberbole at all. You hit an extremely good point that Democrats in general should stop and think about. We see Trump voters as morons because they would support Trump regardless of how awful he is as a person.

It isn't so much that Democrats are doing the same and that is wrong blah blah blah. It is more about being realistic about why people vote for Trump and that just pointing out how bad a person he is will not have much of an effect.

How bad would a Democrat have to be before I'd not vote for them is a question that makes me feel queasy because honestly I don't know where that bottom is.

Belz... · 10th March 2020, 05:53 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

I don't think you're qualified to lecture others on American politics if you don't know that Congress is composed of two houses and legislation has to pass both.

Yes, I'm sure such a hypothetical person would need to be told that. Don't know why you bring it up, since I specifically told you that I hope one of the two houses of Congress, specifically the Senate, will flip.

Quote:

A hostile Senate renders a friendly House moot.

Which is why I posted what I posted:

"If Democrats control Congress, of course he will."

The first word is kind of important.

TragicMonkey · 10th March 2020, 05:59 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Yes, I'm sure such a hypothetical person would need to be told that. Don't know why you bring it up, since I specifically told you that I hope one of the two houses of Congress, specifically the Senate, will flip.

Which is why I posted what I posted:

"If Democrats control Congress, of course he will."

The first word is kind of important.

Then you agree that if the Senate doesn't flip, a President Biden will be no more able to accomplish anything than a President Sanders?

Distracted1 · 10th March 2020, 06:34 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Then you agree that if the Senate doesn't flip, a President Biden will be no more able to accomplish anything than a President Sanders?

Not necessarily.

Sanders seems particularly disinclined to compromise in general. He may insist (for instance) that a healthcare bill come to his desk that eliminates private insurance- or it will face a veto.

Biden seems more willing to sign anything the Democrats can get through that moves the situation forward, even if it is less than what would be optimum.
Biden getting something done, where Sanders would not.

SuburbanTurkey · 10th March 2020, 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by Distracted1

Not necessarily.

Sanders seems particularly disinclined to compromise in general. He may insist (for instance) that a healthcare bill come to his desk that eliminates private insurance- or it will face a veto.

Biden seems more willing to sign anything the Democrats can get through that moves the situation forward, even if it is less than what would be optimum.
Biden getting something done, where Sanders would not.

Sanders voted for the ACA while in the senate, despite it being a giant giveaway to the private insurance markets. I have no reason to believe that Sanders would torpedo a pretty-good bill in order to make a childish statement.

TragicMonkey · 10th March 2020, 06:39 AM

Originally Posted by Distracted1

Not necessarily.

Sanders seems particularly disinclined to compromise in general. He may insist (for instance) that a healthcare bill come to his desk that eliminates private insurance- or it will face a veto.

Biden seems more willing to sign anything the Democrats can get through that moves the situation forward, even if it is less than what would be optimum.
Biden getting something done, where Sanders would not.

I don't see any bill reaching a Democratic president's desk in the first place so whether they'd sign or not is irrelevant. The Senate shows no sign of flipping, and the Republicans are no less obstructionist than before.

Belz... · 10th March 2020, 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Then you agree that if the Senate doesn't flip, a President Biden will be no more able to accomplish anything than a President Sanders?

First of all, I agree that it's very, very likely that this is correct, which is why I wrote "if". Second, the implication of an "IF" doesn't work both ways, so your "so" there doesn't follow even though you turned out to be correct.

I will note, however, that having all of Congress is not the only way a president can get things done with support from his party.

Elagabalus · 10th March 2020, 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Posting fiction in response to an actual argument about elections is not "addressing" it, no.

Eh *** shrugs ***... You gave me your ~~fiction~~ hypothetical and I gave you one back.

Cabbage · 10th March 2020, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

In that case by all means: what was dudalb's point?

Since your point was completely unrelated to his, and you didn't miss his point, why did you choose to answer with this specific point?

So you need it spelled out for you?

OK:

Dudalb's first quoted post is saying, paraphrased: Say what you will about Biden's health, Sanders has health issues, too.

Dudalb's second quoted post is saying, paraphrased: Raising alarms over Biden's health is doing Trump's dirty work for him.

My post, then, pointed out that raising alarms over Sanders health also does Trump's dirty work for him.

Now do you finally see the point?

JoeMorgue · 10th March 2020, 08:57 AM

As I've said before the Republicans never seem to have a problem getting things done and/or keeping the Democrats from getting things done or forcing them to compromise when they don't have official political power.

There was a two year period about a decade back when the Democrats owned the Presidency and both house of the Senate. We didn't get Universal Health Care or massive Gun reform or any of the other Democrat Party tentpoles during that time, we got compromised versions of some of them at best. Because even without power the Republicans managed to wield political influence.

The whole "We don't control the Presidency, Senate, SCOTUS, and all 6 Infinity Stones therefore we just can't get anything done and shouldn't be expected to" seems to be a uniquely Democratic stance.

d4m10n · 10th March 2020, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

I don't see any bill reaching a Democratic president's desk in the first place so whether they'd sign or not is irrelevant. The Senate shows no sign of flipping, and the Republicans are no less obstructionist than before.

https://www.270towin.com/2020-senate...enate-forecast

Dems would have to hold their own in blue-to-bluish states and pull off wins in AZ, CO, NC, ME. Not impossible, but relatively improbable.

Belz... · 10th March 2020, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by Elagabalus

Eh *** shrugs ***... You gave me your ~~fiction~~ hypothetical and I gave you one back.

Mine was tailor made for reality.

Segnosaur · 10th March 2020, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Yeah liars and plagiarists are not my cup of tea.

You're right... Biden has lied. On numerous occasions.

If you look at politifact, they can point to over a dozen statements that Biden has made that are listed as 'false' or 'pants on fire'. Even more are listed as half truths.

Looks bad.

But the fact is, every politician has been found to have lied at some point... Even Saint Sanders is not immune, with over a dozen statements that would be considered false.

https://www.politifact.com/personalities/joe-biden/
https://www.politifact.com/personali...ernie-sanders/

So how do you decide if a politician is "honest"? If they never have lied? That seems like a rather high bar to set, and nobody would pass that particular test.

Belz... · 10th March 2020, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by Cabbage

Dudalb's second quoted post is saying, paraphrased: Raising alarms over Biden's health is doing Trump's dirty work for him.

My post, then, pointed out that raising alarms over Sanders health also does Trump's dirty work for him.

Dudalb DIDN'T RAISE Sanders' health as an issue. That's what you completely missed. He only said that if you're concerned about Biden's health it's hypocritical to ignore Sanders'. He's not saying that Sanders shouldn't be president because of his health.

Just as I said. You didn't understand dudalb's point. Thanks for demonstrating it step-by-step.

Segnosaur · 10th March 2020, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Quote:

The Senate shows no sign of flipping, and the Republicans are no less obstructionist than before.

https://www.270towin.com/2020-senate...enate-forecast

Dems would have to hold their own in blue-to-bluish states and pull off wins in AZ, CO, NC, ME. Not impossible, but relatively improbable.

Yes, there are certainly more vulnerable Republican seats than Democrat seats, so there is a glimmer of hope. (But then, admittedly I thought the same thing about the 2018 midterms.)

Collins is extremely unpopular in Maine (thanks in part to her confirmation of Drunky McRapeface), McSally was an appointee who lost the previous election, AND is trailing in the polls in AZ. Tillis is currently trailing his Democratic rival in North Carolina (admittedly with only one poll). And Cory Gartner is in a state that has a slight Democratic lean and is trailing in the polls to the Democrats by 13 points in CO. (Admittedly only one poll there.)

So all 4 of those states are in play. (Admittedly the Democrats are likely to lose Alabama.)

Of course, even if the Democrats don't end up with a clear majority in the senate, a 50-50 split with a Democrat in the white house would still allow them to get things done by using the vice-president's tie breaker.

JoeMorgue · 10th March 2020, 09:22 AM

Yeah nobody bring up the very idea that the 77 year who's eyeball exploded on live TV or the 78 year old who's had a heart attack might not be in good shape. The Republicans never would of thought of that if a poster on the resurrected corpse of a dead skeptic message board hadn't brought it up! It's not like they have a goddamn army of people digging up mud and just making up mud when they can't dig any up.

Jesus goddamn Christ people.

Elagabalus · 10th March 2020, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Mine was tailor made for reality.

Originally Posted by Belz...

You think it's a joke? Clinton lost because not enough Democrats decided to vote, moreso than Republicans. A boring candidate on the Democratic side might just lull GOP voters into complacency.

Considering how close the last election was, it's no joke. The opposition being inspired to vote or not matters...

...A boring candidate on the Democratic side might just lull GOP voters into complacency.

It could happen.

Belz... · 10th March 2020, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by Elagabalus

...A boring candidate on the Democratic side might just lull GOP voters into complacency.

It could happen.

You stil haven't made ANY effort to address it on its own merit.

If your own voters can stay home because you think you'll win easily, then the opposition voters can stay home if they think you'll definitely lose.

Cabbage · 10th March 2020, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Dudalb DIDN'T RAISE Sanders' health as an issue. That's what you completely missed. He only said that if you're concerned about Biden's health it's hypocritical to ignore Sanders'. He's not saying that Sanders shouldn't be president because of his health.

That's really subject to debate, you know. Here's what he actually posted:

Originally Posted by dudalb

And they should not be choosing a 78 year old with heart issues.

I stand by my interpretation.

Quote:

Just as I said. You didn't understand dudalb's point. Thanks for demonstrating it step-by-step.

I'm not going to say your interpretation is wrong. I will say you're in no position to claim your interpretation is uniquely right.

What I'm wondering is why you consistently waste my time with such nonsense.

Baylor · 10th March 2020, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by Cain

Whoa, whoa, whoa, can we just calm down for a moment and try to be fair to both sides? Get out of your own headspace and try to see the world through the eyes of others. Democrats are (likely) going to choose Biden simply because they think he has a better chance in a general election, and Republicans are going to back Trump because they're evil.

I'm not sure how serious you're being but some people will take you seriously so I should address how dumb this is. "Democrats" aren't choosing Biden because "they think he has a better chance in a general election." "Democrats" are choosing Biden because blacks have an unusually large sway in Democratic primaries and they love establishment Democrats.

Aside from that obvious fact, it's Bernie who has a better chance to beat Trump. Blacks and hispanics are going to vote Democrat regardless of who's on the ticket, and whites in key states are far more likely to vote for/turn out for Bernie than Biden.

eta: ^childless Europeans, see: this is a simple and parsimonious explanation of US political events. Note the absence of "usa left wing is right wing in world fox news nra gop koch brothers brainwash because usa gun violence."

d4m10n · 10th March 2020, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by Baylor

...whites in key states are far more likely to vote for/turn out for Bernie than Biden.

Let's test that premise in Michigan tonight.

Baylor · 10th March 2020, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Let's test that premise in Michigan tonight.

There are enough blacks in MI to give Biden the victory (haven't even looked at the polls) while Bernie will win the Pacific Northwest, I mentioned this upthread.

Segnosaur · 10th March 2020, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by Baylor

I'm not sure how serious you're being but some people will take you seriously so I should address how dumb this is. "Democrats" aren't choosing Biden because "they think he has a better chance in a general election." "Democrats" are choosing Biden because blacks have an unusually large sway in Democratic primaries and they love establishment Democrats.

Actually Biden also has significant amount of support from white suburban voters as well. And in he also has the support of Women voters too.

Distracted1 · 10th March 2020, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by Elagabalus

...A boring candidate on the Democratic side might just lull GOP voters into complacency.

It could happen.

In Michigan (for example) in 2016 there were 88,000 "undervotes" - people who voted down ballot, but did not make a selection for POTUS- nearly double the average up till that year.

The Downballot races ended up electing 4 Democrats and 9 Republicans, so it can be assumed that a majority of those undervotes would have gone Trump had he been less repellant. Some of them may even have crossed over to Hillary if she did not have the baggage she had in that region)

Keeping voters like that (right-leaning, but not enamored by Trump) from voting for Trump because the other guy is a "socialist" ( lulling them into complacency) , and even allowing them a centrist option that does not have Clintons' disdain, is the key to takin those few Blue wall States back for the Democrats.

Bob001 · 10th March 2020, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

.....
At the same time, I give Joe less than zero credibility on the "we have to be nice to each other or Trump will win!" issue. Because that, in and of itself, is an embedded attack line.

I wasn't defending Biden. I was making the point that the White House itself is posting fraudulent, doctored videos. Even the Trumpers should expect the President to have more integrity than that. Fat chance.

d4m10n · 10th March 2020, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by Baylor

There are enough blacks in MI to give Biden the victory (haven't even looked at the polls) while Bernie will win the Pacific Northwest, I mentioned this upthread.

I assume you've heard of crosstabs.

Belz... · 10th March 2020, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by Cabbage

That's really subject to debate, you know. Here's what he actually posted:

I stand by my interpretation.

Which is why I say you didn't understand his point. Again, thanks for the demonstration.

10th March 2020, 03:55 AM	#403
Distracted1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 5,535	Originally Posted by Cain Whoa, whoa, whoa, can we just calm down for a moment and try to be fair to both sides? Get out of your own headspace and try to see the world through the eyes of others. Democrats are (likely) going to choose Biden simply because they think he has a better chance in a general election, and Republicans are going to back Trump because they're evil. Whoa there! Logical fallacy alert! Not all Republicans are evil- only the ones who support Trump are. It's your classic "all A's are B's" not meaning that "all B's are A's". Glad I could help.
	__________________ The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.

10th March 2020, 04:27 AM	#404
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,449	Originally Posted by Elagabalus I did address it. Posting fiction in response to an actual argument about elections is not "addressing" it, no.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

10th March 2020, 04:29 AM	#405
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,449	Originally Posted by Cabbage I never missed dudalb's point In that case by all means: what was dudalb's point? Quote: I simply responded with a point of my own Since your point was completely unrelated to his, and you didn't miss his point, why did you choose to answer with this specific point?
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

10th March 2020, 04:35 AM	#406
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,449	Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle Horse hockey. I would definitely watch that. Originally Posted by Sideroxylon Just need to overlook him being a lying scumbag flake but yeah vague promises of “modest reforms.” What a presidential candidate! What a platform! An America that offers a fair deal for working Americans must be relegated to the too hard basket because the establishment says no. Bend over and like it. This is not an answer to the post you quoted. It's just a rant that fails to address the points completely. We get it: Biden isn't your cup of tea and is far from ideal. That's not the point. The point is that he could get things done were he to try. Sanders would be hard pressed to find any support in Congress. Then what happens to your glorious reforms?
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

10th March 2020, 04:39 AM	#407
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,449	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon Just a warning I will report posts that personalise arguments. Don’t make this about me. You understand that we're allowed to discuss personal feelings and information, right? Quote: We got there finally. The time it took is entirely because the first post I quoted here didn't read "I'd rather not answer that question", but was rather a passive-aggressive bait. You did that deliberately, and then implied that Stacy's the one at fault.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

10th March 2020, 02:02 AM	#401
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 12,670	Originally Posted by Segnosaur I haven't read the original article... paywall... but I have read other versions of the story, such as: https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/8/21...etweeted-trump .... More recently: Quote: WASHINGTON — A manipulated video featuring Joseph R. Biden Jr. and spread by President Trump over the weekend has ratcheted up an online war that has put Twitter and Facebook in the middle of a debate over political speech. ..... The video came from a stump speech by Mr. Biden on Saturday in Kansas City, Mo., where he appeared to struggle through a sentence and with halting words said, “We can only re-elect Donald Trump.” But the rest of Mr. Biden’s sentence was selectively edited out. In full, Mr. Biden was stressing the need for Democrats to unite against Mr. Trump. “We can only re-elect Donald Trump if in fact we get engaged in this circular firing squad here. It’s got to be a positive campaign,” he said. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/09/t...deo-trump.html

10th March 2020, 02:44 AM	#402
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 24,331	Originally Posted by Stacyhs Fine. You don't want to answer the question. Got it. We got there finally.

10th March 2020, 04:49 AM	#408
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 24,331	Originally Posted by Belz... I would definitely watch that. This is not an answer to the post you quoted. It's just a rant that fails to address the points completely. We get it: Biden isn't your cup of tea and is far from ideal. That's not the point. The point is that he could get things done were he to try. Sanders would be hard pressed to find any support in Congress. Then what happens to your glorious reforms? Yeah liars and plagiarists are not my cup of tea.

10th March 2020, 04:52 AM	#409
Delphic Oracle Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 5,373	Originally Posted by Bob001 More recently: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/09/t...deo-trump.html Attacks on Sanders: the Republicans will do worse to him! Attacks on Biden: guise, don't circular firing squad! Same issue as every time I hear advocates for social and economic justice get told they are engaging in class warfare. We were already at war, what you didn't like is us fighting back. So I'll grant you he didn't flub the line as badly as purported. But it was overall an awful delivery. Yes that is relevant because as Biden supporters themselves like to point out, electability is a factor. At the same time, I give Joe less than zero credibility on the "we have to be nice to each other or Trump will win!" issue. Because that, in and of itself, is an embedded attack line.
	Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 10th March 2020 at 05:03 AM.

10th March 2020, 05:06 AM	#410
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 59,518	Originally Posted by Belz... I would definitely watch that. This is not an answer to the post you quoted. It's just a rant that fails to address the points completely. We get it: Biden isn't your cup of tea and is far from ideal. That's not the point. The point is that he could get things done were he to try. Sanders would be hard pressed to find any support in Congress. Then what happens to your glorious reforms? What on earth makes you think Biden "could get things done"? Do you think the Senate's going to flip? Or that Biden can succeed in getting Republicans to play nicely? Have you forgotten how they acted for both of Obama's terms? Have you forgotten how they've stopped everything coming out of the House today? Biden won't get anything more done than Sanders will. Eta: my point is that it's irrelevant how many Democrats support the next president, so the functional difference between Sanders and Biden is zero.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara. Last edited by TragicMonkey; 10th March 2020 at 05:07 AM.

10th March 2020, 05:10 AM	#411
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,449	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon Yeah liars and plagiarists are not my cup of tea. Yeah, I already said that. How about you address the point? This is the second time that you evade it.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

10th March 2020, 05:11 AM	#412
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,449	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey What on earth makes you think Biden "could get things done"? For pete's sake, man. That's already been addressed. Didn't you follow the conversation? Quote: Do you think the Senate's going to flip? I have no idea, but I do hope it will. Quote: Or that Biden can succeed in getting Republicans to play nicely? No way. Quote: Biden won't get anything more done than Sanders will. If Democrats control Congress, of course he will. Sanders is an outsider; Biden would have more chances of getting the party to play ball. I don't know why it's so hard for some to understand.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

10th March 2020, 05:21 AM	#413
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 59,518	Originally Posted by Belz... For pete's sake, man. That's already been addressed. Didn't you follow the conversation? I have no idea, but I do hope it will. No way. If Democrats control Congress, of course he will. Sanders is an outsider; Biden would have more chances of getting the party to play ball. I don't know why it's so hard for some to understand. I don't think you're qualified to lecture others on American politics if you don't know that Congress is composed of two houses and legislation has to pass both. A hostile Senate renders a friendly House moot.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

10th March 2020, 05:23 AM	#414
Suddenly No Punting Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Not In Follansbee Posts: 4,118	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon Hyperbole for sure. But how much of a pass Does Biden get as the establishment pick? What does the 1988 campaign tell us of his character? 1988 can go fly a kite. The whole thing seems quaint at this point. We used to be really worried about Dan Quayle too. I don't think it is hyberbole at all. You hit an extremely good point that Democrats in general should stop and think about. We see Trump voters as morons because they would support Trump regardless of how awful he is as a person. It isn't so much that Democrats are doing the same and that is wrong blah blah blah. It is more about being realistic about why people vote for Trump and that just pointing out how bad a person he is will not have much of an effect. How bad would a Democrat have to be before I'd not vote for them is a question that makes me feel queasy because honestly I don't know where that bottom is.

10th March 2020, 05:53 AM	#415
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,449	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey I don't think you're qualified to lecture others on American politics if you don't know that Congress is composed of two houses and legislation has to pass both. Yes, I'm sure such a hypothetical person would need to be told that. Don't know why you bring it up, since I specifically told you that I hope one of the two houses of Congress, specifically the Senate, will flip. Quote: A hostile Senate renders a friendly House moot. Which is why I posted what I posted: "If Democrats control Congress, of course he will." The first word is kind of important.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward Last edited by Belz...; 10th March 2020 at 05:54 AM.

10th March 2020, 05:59 AM	#416
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 59,518	Originally Posted by Belz... Yes, I'm sure such a hypothetical person would need to be told that. Don't know why you bring it up, since I specifically told you that I hope one of the two houses of Congress, specifically the Senate, will flip. Which is why I posted what I posted: "If Democrats control Congress, of course he will." The first word is kind of important. Then you agree that if the Senate doesn't flip, a President Biden will be no more able to accomplish anything than a President Sanders?
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

10th March 2020, 06:34 AM	#417
Distracted1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 5,535	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Then you agree that if the Senate doesn't flip, a President Biden will be no more able to accomplish anything than a President Sanders? Not necessarily. Sanders seems particularly disinclined to compromise in general. He may insist (for instance) that a healthcare bill come to his desk that eliminates private insurance- or it will face a veto. Biden seems more willing to sign anything the Democrats can get through that moves the situation forward, even if it is less than what would be optimum. Biden getting something done, where Sanders would not.
	__________________ The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.

10th March 2020, 06:38 AM	#418
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,017	Originally Posted by Distracted1 Not necessarily. Sanders seems particularly disinclined to compromise in general. He may insist (for instance) that a healthcare bill come to his desk that eliminates private insurance- or it will face a veto. Biden seems more willing to sign anything the Democrats can get through that moves the situation forward, even if it is less than what would be optimum. Biden getting something done, where Sanders would not. Sanders voted for the ACA while in the senate, despite it being a giant giveaway to the private insurance markets. I have no reason to believe that Sanders would torpedo a pretty-good bill in order to make a childish statement.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

10th March 2020, 06:39 AM	#419
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 59,518	Originally Posted by Distracted1 Not necessarily. Sanders seems particularly disinclined to compromise in general. He may insist (for instance) that a healthcare bill come to his desk that eliminates private insurance- or it will face a veto. Biden seems more willing to sign anything the Democrats can get through that moves the situation forward, even if it is less than what would be optimum. Biden getting something done, where Sanders would not. I don't see any bill reaching a Democratic president's desk in the first place so whether they'd sign or not is irrelevant. The Senate shows no sign of flipping, and the Republicans are no less obstructionist than before.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

10th March 2020, 08:36 AM	#420
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,449	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Then you agree that if the Senate doesn't flip, a President Biden will be no more able to accomplish anything than a President Sanders? First of all, I agree that it's very, very likely that this is correct, which is why I wrote "if". Second, the implication of an "IF" doesn't work both ways, so your "so" there doesn't follow even though you turned out to be correct. I will note, however, that having all of Congress is not the only way a president can get things done with support from his party.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward Last edited by Belz...; 10th March 2020 at 08:37 AM.

10th March 2020, 08:36 AM	#421
Elagabalus Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 6,919	Originally Posted by Belz... Posting fiction in response to an actual argument about elections is not "addressing" it, no. Eh * shrugs *... You gave me your ~~fiction~~ hypothetical and I gave you one back.
Elagabalus Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 6,919

10th March 2020, 08:47 AM	#422
Cabbage Banned Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,598	Originally Posted by Belz... In that case by all means: what was dudalb's point? Since your point was completely unrelated to his, and you didn't miss his point, why did you choose to answer with this specific point? So you need it spelled out for you? OK: Dudalb's first quoted post is saying, paraphrased: Say what you will about Biden's health, Sanders has health issues, too. Dudalb's second quoted post is saying, paraphrased: Raising alarms over Biden's health is doing Trump's dirty work for him. My post, then, pointed out that raising alarms over Sanders health also does Trump's dirty work for him. Now do you finally see the point?
Cabbage Banned Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,598

10th March 2020, 08:57 AM	#423
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,720	As I've said before the Republicans never seem to have a problem getting things done and/or keeping the Democrats from getting things done or forcing them to compromise when they don't have official political power. There was a two year period about a decade back when the Democrats owned the Presidency and both house of the Senate. We didn't get Universal Health Care or massive Gun reform or any of the other Democrat Party tentpoles during that time, we got compromised versions of some of them at best. Because even without power the Republicans managed to wield political influence. The whole "We don't control the Presidency, Senate, SCOTUS, and all 6 Infinity Stones therefore we just can't get anything done and shouldn't be expected to" seems to be a uniquely Democratic stance.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

10th March 2020, 09:04 AM	#424
d4m10n Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 6,429	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey I don't see any bill reaching a Democratic president's desk in the first place so whether they'd sign or not is irrelevant. The Senate shows no sign of flipping, and the Republicans are no less obstructionist than before. https://www.270towin.com/2020-senate...enate-forecast Dems would have to hold their own in blue-to-bluish states and pull off wins in AZ, CO, NC, ME. Not impossible, but relatively improbable.
	__________________ "Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

10th March 2020, 09:06 AM	#425
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,449	Originally Posted by Elagabalus Eh * shrugs *... You gave me your ~~fiction~~ hypothetical and I gave you one back. Mine was tailor made for reality.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

10th March 2020, 09:08 AM	#426
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 17,127	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon Yeah liars and plagiarists are not my cup of tea. You're right... Biden has lied. On numerous occasions. If you look at politifact, they can point to over a dozen statements that Biden has made that are listed as 'false' or 'pants on fire'. Even more are listed as half truths. Looks bad. But the fact is, every politician has been found to have lied at some point... Even Saint Sanders is not immune, with over a dozen statements that would be considered false. https://www.politifact.com/personalities/joe-biden/ https://www.politifact.com/personali...ernie-sanders/ So how do you decide if a politician is "honest"? If they never have lied? That seems like a rather high bar to set, and nobody would pass that particular test.
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

10th March 2020, 09:16 AM	#427
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,449	Originally Posted by Cabbage Dudalb's second quoted post is saying, paraphrased: Raising alarms over Biden's health is doing Trump's dirty work for him. My post, then, pointed out that raising alarms over Sanders health also does Trump's dirty work for him. Dudalb DIDN'T RAISE Sanders' health as an issue. That's what you completely missed. He only said that if you're concerned about Biden's health it's hypocritical to ignore Sanders'. He's not saying that Sanders shouldn't be president because of his health. Just as I said. You didn't understand dudalb's point. Thanks for demonstrating it step-by-step.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

10th March 2020, 09:20 AM	#428
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 17,127	Originally Posted by d4m10n Quote: The Senate shows no sign of flipping, and the Republicans are no less obstructionist than before. https://www.270towin.com/2020-senate...enate-forecast Dems would have to hold their own in blue-to-bluish states and pull off wins in AZ, CO, NC, ME. Not impossible, but relatively improbable. Yes, there are certainly more vulnerable Republican seats than Democrat seats, so there is a glimmer of hope. (But then, admittedly I thought the same thing about the 2018 midterms.) Collins is extremely unpopular in Maine (thanks in part to her confirmation of Drunky McRapeface), McSally was an appointee who lost the previous election, AND is trailing in the polls in AZ. Tillis is currently trailing his Democratic rival in North Carolina (admittedly with only one poll). And Cory Gartner is in a state that has a slight Democratic lean and is trailing in the polls to the Democrats by 13 points in CO. (Admittedly only one poll there.) So all 4 of those states are in play. (Admittedly the Democrats are likely to lose Alabama.) Of course, even if the Democrats don't end up with a clear majority in the senate, a 50-50 split with a Democrat in the white house would still allow them to get things done by using the vice-president's tie breaker.
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

10th March 2020, 09:22 AM	#429
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,720	Yeah nobody bring up the very idea that the 77 year who's eyeball exploded on live TV or the 78 year old who's had a heart attack might not be in good shape. The Republicans never would of thought of that if a poster on the resurrected corpse of a dead skeptic message board hadn't brought it up! It's not like they have a goddamn army of people digging up mud and just making up mud when they can't dig any up. Jesus goddamn Christ people.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

10th March 2020, 09:24 AM	#430
Elagabalus Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 6,919	Originally Posted by Belz... Mine was tailor made for reality. Originally Posted by Belz... You think it's a joke? Clinton lost because not enough Democrats decided to vote, moreso than Republicans. A boring candidate on the Democratic side might just lull GOP voters into complacency. Considering how close the last election was, it's no joke. The opposition being inspired to vote or not matters... ...A boring candidate on the Democratic side might just lull GOP voters into complacency. It could happen.
Elagabalus Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 6,919

10th March 2020, 09:25 AM	#431
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,449	Originally Posted by Elagabalus ...A boring candidate on the Democratic side might just lull GOP voters into complacency. It could happen. You stil haven't made ANY effort to address it on its own merit. If your own voters can stay home because you think you'll win easily, then the opposition voters can stay home if they think you'll definitely lose.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

10th March 2020, 09:26 AM	#432
Cabbage Banned Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,598	Originally Posted by Belz... Dudalb DIDN'T RAISE Sanders' health as an issue. That's what you completely missed. He only said that if you're concerned about Biden's health it's hypocritical to ignore Sanders'. He's not saying that Sanders shouldn't be president because of his health. That's really subject to debate, you know. Here's what he actually posted: Originally Posted by dudalb And they should not be choosing a 78 year old with heart issues. I stand by my interpretation. Quote: Just as I said. You didn't understand dudalb's point. Thanks for demonstrating it step-by-step. I'm not going to say your interpretation is wrong. I will say you're in no position to claim your interpretation is uniquely right. What I'm wondering is why you consistently waste my time with such nonsense.
Cabbage Banned Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,598

10th March 2020, 09:45 AM	#433
Baylor Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,394	Originally Posted by Cain Whoa, whoa, whoa, can we just calm down for a moment and try to be fair to both sides? Get out of your own headspace and try to see the world through the eyes of others. Democrats are (likely) going to choose Biden simply because they think he has a better chance in a general election, and Republicans are going to back Trump because they're evil. I'm not sure how serious you're being but some people will take you seriously so I should address how dumb this is. "Democrats" aren't choosing Biden because "they think he has a better chance in a general election." "Democrats" are choosing Biden because blacks have an unusually large sway in Democratic primaries and they love establishment Democrats. Aside from that obvious fact, it's Bernie who has a better chance to beat Trump. Blacks and hispanics are going to vote Democrat regardless of who's on the ticket, and whites in key states are far more likely to vote for/turn out for Bernie than Biden. eta: ^childless Europeans, see: this is a simple and parsimonious explanation of US political events. Note the absence of "usa left wing is right wing in world fox news nra gop koch brothers brainwash because usa gun violence."
Baylor Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,394	Last edited by Baylor; 10th March 2020 at 09:56 AM.

10th March 2020, 09:52 AM	#434
d4m10n Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 6,429	Originally Posted by Baylor ...whites in key states are far more likely to vote for/turn out for Bernie than Biden. Let's test that premise in Michigan tonight.
	__________________ "Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

10th March 2020, 09:56 AM	#435
Baylor Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,394	Originally Posted by d4m10n Let's test that premise in Michigan tonight. There are enough blacks in MI to give Biden the victory (haven't even looked at the polls) while Bernie will win the Pacific Northwest, I mentioned this upthread.
Baylor Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,394