ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Bush conspiracies

Reply
Old 9th January 2017, 09:18 AM   #361
beachnut
Penultimate Amazing
 
beachnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 24,789
Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
They could have found flight 11, 175, 77 and 93 by just checking for the tickets used for flights bought with the credit cards of Mihdhar and Hazmi.

These credit cards were used to buy 10 tickets for these flight used on 9/11. Once they found these flights, they could have checked the people on these flights with middle east names and see what pervious practice flights they had been on and they would have discovered the flights in the last week of May, the second week of June and the first week of July. This would have quickly identified the names of all of the pilots that took part in the attacks on 9/11. This whole process would taken an 10 year kid no more that 15 minutes, but I am sure it would have taken you much, much longer!
This weak personal attack will not help the fantasy conclusion you make up which are not supported by the BS like this you post

Practice flights? Flying around as a passenger is a practice flight. Thus I took four practice flights this year.

As we ramble off topic, the topic more like this kind of post by the OP author.
Quote:
The Bush Family kills anybody coming close to revealing the true
Thus, your fantasy conclusion thesis material is off topic, this thread theme is total nonsense, where as you post a bunch of information and only your conclusions are fantasy. You take say 1 plus 1 is two, the sky is blue, and because of two and blue Bush let it happen, or something like that.

Who let OKC happen?
__________________
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" - Albert Einstein
"... education as the means of developing our greatest abilities" - JFK
https://folding.stanford.edu/ fold with your computer - join team 13232

Last edited by beachnut; 9th January 2017 at 09:29 AM.
beachnut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2017, 09:26 AM   #362
Mark F
Graduate Poster
 
Mark F's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,108
Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
Practice flights? Flying around as a passenger is a practice flight. Thus I took four practice flights this year.
Practice in case they ran into these guys:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiWIOKKuyGE
__________________
So I'm going to tell you what the facts are, and the facts are the facts, but then we know the truth. That always overcomes facts.
Mark F is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2017, 01:43 PM   #363
BasqueArch
Graduate Poster
 
BasqueArch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,858
Predicting the past

Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
We now know that Bush completely ignored iron clad information that a huge al Qaeda terrorist attack was about to take place inside of the US that would kill thousands of Americans. George Tenet was his Director of the CIA and reported directly to George Bush almost every day. ... <snip>
August 2001 Tenet to Bush: For the past year we’ve received warnings from some countries and different sources that Osama bin Laden plans an imminent major attack on the US. What should we do?

Bush to Tenet: When, where and how is this attack to take place?

Tenet to Bush: We don’t know. We just keep hearing about these threats. What should we do?

Bush to Tenet: Well, what would you like me to do? I’ve been quite busy being president these past few months dealing with this period of economic recession, with education and health, social services and environmental , energy, immigration programs and planning a stronger economic and political relationship with Latin America.
I have a small staff so I will I need some help. Here’s my plan:

1] We should set up a domestic intelligence and security service agency of the United States, which simultaneously serves as the nation's prime federal law enforcement agency. It should operate under the jurisdiction of the U.S. Department of Justice, and be a member of the U.S. Intelligence Community that reports to both the Attorney General and the Director of National Intelligence. As a leading U.S. counterterrorism, counterintelligence and criminal investigative organization, this agency should have jurisdiction over violations of more than 200 categories of federal crimes.

2] Also we should set up a civilian foreign intelligence service agency of the U.S. federal government, tasked with gathering, processing and analyzing national security information from around the world, primarily through the use of human intelligence. As one of the principal members of the U.S. Intelligence Community, this agency should report to the Director of National Intelligence and should be primarily focused on providing intelligence for the President and Cabinet. Unlike the first group, which is a domestic security service, this second group should have no law enforcement function and be mainly focused on overseas intelligence gathering, with only limited domestic collection.

3] We should also prohibit intelligence-sharing in domestic investigations between these two agencies. Let’s call this “the wall” to block such communications. What could go wrong?

Get back to me when you have set up and activated these agencies and you can pick up a paycheck when you have arrested those people.
__________________
In Your Guts You Know They're Nuts. "There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true." -Kierkegaard . "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. "- Marcus Aurelius
A Truther is a True Believer convinced by lies. You can't reason someone out of a thing they weren't reasoned into.
BasqueArch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2017, 02:38 PM   #364
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
 
DGM's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,244
Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
They could have found flight 11, 175, 77 and 93 by just checking for the tickets used for flights bought with the credit cards of Mihdhar and Hazmi.

These credit cards were used to buy 10 tickets for these flight used on 9/11. Once they found these flights, they could have checked the people on these flights with middle east names and see what pervious practice flights they had been on and they would have discovered the flights in the last week of May, the second week of June and the first week of July. This would have quickly identified the names of all of the pilots that took part in the attacks on 9/11. This whole process would taken an 10 year kid no more that 15 minutes, but I am sure it would have taken you much, much longer!
I'm guessing you believe there is some very tech savvy person sitting behind a desk with 3 or 4 monitors waiting to provide this information at any given moment.
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

"How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41
DGM is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2017, 02:51 PM   #365
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
 
LSSBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 15,292
Originally Posted by DGM View Post
I'm guessing you believe there is some very tech savvy person sitting behind a desk with 3 or 4 monitors waiting to provide this information at any given moment.
People think the FBI really has someone like Penelope Garcia from Criminal Minds
__________________
"Realize deeply that the present moment is all you ever have." (Eckhart Tolle, 2004)
LSSBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2017, 02:54 PM   #366
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
 
DGM's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,244
Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
People think the FBI really has someone like Penelope Garcia from Criminal Minds
...and it would be legal if they did.
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

"How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41
DGM is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2017, 05:05 PM   #367
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
 
DGM's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,244
Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
Why didn't the main stream media and their so called real journalists put this account back together. Are they all just too stupid, or in my opinion, are they all just complete cowards!
This is easy. They didn't put it together the way you did because they understand the law and procedures in place to enforce it.

Your last post demonstrates this.
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

"How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41
DGM is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2017, 06:43 PM   #368
Axxman300
Graduate Poster
 
Axxman300's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 1,976
CIA, CIA,CIA, blah, blah,blah....

The NSA had all the phone calls, phone numbers, and emails between AQ, their financiers, and the strike team. The problem was that they didn't know they had all of that stuff until after the attacks, and they did an inventory of their collected data.

Nobody had told them to flag that data, not CIA, the FBI, nor the Clinton White House.

I could play coulda-shoulda-woulda but what's the point?

The key point is that at no time were there ever an intelligence report which detailed an attack using hijacked jets to target the World Trade Center or Pentagon.

There were reports of AQ looking to hijack commercial jets to use as missiles, and the World Trade Center was already a known target after 1993.
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha
Axxman300 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2017, 04:22 PM   #369
paloalto
Muse
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 584
Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
CIA, CIA,CIA, blah, blah,blah....

The NSA had all the phone calls, phone numbers, and emails between AQ, their financiers, and the strike team. The problem was that they didn't know they had all of that stuff until after the attacks, and they did an inventory of their collected data.

Nobody had told them to flag that data, not CIA, the FBI, nor the Clinton White House.

I could play coulda-shoulda-woulda but what's the point?

The key point is that at no time were there ever an intelligence report which detailed an attack using hijacked jets to target the World Trade Center or Pentagon.

There were reports of AQ looking to hijack commercial jets to use as missiles, and the World Trade Center was already a known target after 1993.
You are completely wrong.

From my prior post:

The al Qaeda terrorists had attacked the WTC Towers in 1993, and the fact that they had gone back after the USS Cole after having missed in their attack on the USS The Sullivan’s, moored at the exact same location in Yemen, indicated that they would repeat attacking a target if they missed destroying it the first time.

The CIA was told on June 12, 2001 that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was directing the huge attack that was just about to take place, information in the 9/11 Commission report. The report was that KSM was recruiting al Qaeda terrorists to meet up with other al Qaeda terrorists already in the US to carry out this attack. The CIA knew that al Qaeda terrorist Nawaf al-Hazmi was already inside of the US and knew that Khalid al-Mihdhar had a multi-entry visa for the US, meaning that these two al Qaeda terrorists were going to take part in this huge al Qaeda terrorist attack. This information went to Richard Blee, who was not only the chief of the Rendition unit but also chief of the bin Laden unit, information that went immediately to Cofer Black, his extremely close friend and George Tenet, on who’s staff Blee had served just before becoming chief of the bin Laden unit.

In addition Tenet had been given photos of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed taken at the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting in January 2000, attended by both Mihdhar and Hazmi.

The FBI and the CIA both had Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s Bojinka plot that described hijacking multiple aircraft and flying them into the World Trade Center Towers, the Pentagon and the US Capital building.

Ramzi Yousef, who had been mastermind of the 1993 attack on the WTC Towers, was also KSM's, nephew, and had been arrested at an al Qaeda safe house in 1995, clearly indicating that it was highly likely that KSM’s Bojinka plot had been given to the al Qaeda terrorists at that time. KSM had also partly financed the original 1993 attack on the WTC towers.

Since there are a minimum of 30,000 people in the WTC Towers during a typical business day, any attack on these building would be expected to clearly kill thousands.

Cofer Black's claim that they could not have stopped this attack because they did not know the exact time of that attack on the World Trade Center Towers does not even pass the smell test.

First he told so many lies at the public hearings of the Joint Inquiry Committee that his testimony has absolutely no credibility at all.

Second they did not need to know the exact time of the attack. The CIA knew on August 21, 2001, over three weeks prior to 9/11 that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US and sent that information immediately to the FBI ITOS unit, the FBI HQ's unit in charge of all FBI investigations in the world. The person who received this information, CIA officer Tom Wilshire, working as Deputy Chief of the FBI ITOS unit, knew immediately when told that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US, that they were here to take part in a horrific al Qaeda terrorist attack inside of the US.

Wilshire, while ostensibly working for the FBI, was actually still taking orders from the CIA and even though he was in charge of all FBI investigations, had been secretly ordered in July 2001, to hide from the FBI Cole bombing investigators, not only the information that Mihdhar and Hazmi had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing, but the information that Mihdhar and Hazmi were thought to be connected to the huge al Qaeda terrorist attack that the CIA had been getting numerous warnings about since April 2001.

Since the CIA already knew once Mihdhar and Hazmi were found inside of the US, that these terrorists would be on one of the hijacked planes used in an imminent al Qaeda attack, had Wilshire just asked the FBI Cole bombing investigators to search for the flights that had been paid for with Mihdhar and Hazmi's credit cards, they could have found several of the flights used on 9/11 in just a few minutes.

Why Wilshire and the CIA deliberately allowed the al Qaeda terrorists to murder almost 3000 people on 9/11 has never been explained even after three investigations of the 9/11 attacks. George Tenet, Condoleezza Rice, George Bush, and Tom Wilshire have never explained why they did absolutely nothing to stop this attack after they knew Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US, and even knew they were here to take part in this horrific attack.

But it is even worse than that. We now know that it was the actions of these people that resulted in shutting down FBI Agent Steve Bongardt's criminal investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi, which allowed the al Qaeda terrorists to carry out the attacks on 9/11. Because the FBI criminal investigation of Moussaoui had also been sabotaged by the exact same FBI ITOS unit, it is highly likely that it was the actions of these people that had also resulted in shutting down FBI Agent Harry Samit's criminal investigation of Zacharias Moussaoui.
paloalto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2017, 07:30 PM   #370
Axxman300
Graduate Poster
 
Axxman300's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 1,976
Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
The FBI and the CIA both had Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s Bojinka plot that described hijacking multiple aircraft and flying them into the World Trade Center Towers, the Pentagon and the US Capital building.
Neat.

The problem is that Bojinka had a long list of targets including the Pope, Clinton, CIA HQ, and airports.

The next problem was that Bojinka was devised in 1994, and even included a test runs on December 1, and December 11. The plot was abandoned after their Yousef's apartment caught fire and Murad was arrested.

Why this is a problem is that Yousef, KSM, and UBL would have known Bojinka was now blown with Murad's capture, which is why 9-11 looked nothing like Bojinka.

KSM recycled and modified an attack plan in 1996, and UBL approved the strike in 1999.

There is a 4-year gap between Bojinka and what would become 9-11. Even Al Qaeda would tell you Bojinka is irrelevant to 9-11.

Should also point out that there was a different President in 1995-2000, with a National Security Adviser who was more interested in keeping the Saudi's happy than National Security.
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha
Axxman300 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2017, 04:20 PM   #371
paloalto
Muse
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 584
Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Neat.

The problem is that Bojinka had a long list of targets including the Pope, Clinton, CIA HQ, and airports.

The next problem was that Bojinka was devised in 1994, and even included a test runs on December 1, and December 11. The plot was abandoned after their Yousef's apartment caught fire and Murad was arrested.

Why this is a problem is that Yousef, KSM, and UBL would have known Bojinka was now blown with Murad's capture, which is why 9-11 looked nothing like Bojinka.

KSM recycled and modified an attack plan in 1996, and UBL approved the strike in 1999.

There is a 4-year gap between Bojinka and what would become 9-11. Even Al Qaeda would tell you Bojinka is irrelevant to 9-11.

Should also point out that there was a different President in 1995-2000, with a National Security Adviser who was more interested in keeping the Saudi's happy than National Security.
Your logic completely fails. The attack on 9/11 was the second part of the Bojinka plot, just modified to make it practical and picking targets with the greatest symbolic value and with the highest civilian casualty count.

The second half of the Bojinka plot called for hijacking 10 aircraft, 5 on the east coast and 5 on the west coast and hitting 10 targets. The targets of the east coast were the World Trade Center Towers in New York City, and the Pentagon and US Capital building in Washington DC, and the CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia. The al Qaeda terrorists realized quickly that synchronizing in time the hijacking on the east coast with attacks on the west coast was completely impractical and dropped the west coast attacks. The al Qaeda terrorists ultimately realized that hijacking 5 aircraft on the east coast was also impractical due to their inability to get 5 pilots and the extra 4 muscle hijackers, and dropped the attack on the CIA HQs. The fact that the al Qaeda terrorists were only able to get 3 muscle terrorists for one of their flights shows they even had difficulty for this abbreviated plan.

Most likely they changed their plans after Mihdhar and Hazmi flunked out of fight school, in May 2000. After these two al Qaeda terrorists, who had been handpicked by bin Laden himself, flunked out of flight school, the al Qaeda terrorists realized that it was not enough to have bin Laden hand pick Saudi nationals that were willing to take part in a martyrdom mission but that the terrorists who were to be picked to be the pilots on 9/11 had to have an extremely good command of the English language in order to get though flight school. It turns out engineering or architecture grad students in Northern Germany fit the bill since most engineering courses in the Germany were taught in English.
paloalto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th January 2017, 05:04 PM   #372
beachnut
Penultimate Amazing
 
beachnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 24,789
Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
...
Finally, you got nothing on topic, a pure post of stuff which does not support your fantasy conclusions.
It is hard to find 20 pilots who want to die; this is why terrorists are not as likely as a car accident to kill us. 19 idiots is all UBL could find, 4 failed pilots who crashed on their first time flying jets.

Hard to find low down murderers. Do you know the topic of the thread? No.
__________________
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" - Albert Einstein
"... education as the means of developing our greatest abilities" - JFK
https://folding.stanford.edu/ fold with your computer - join team 13232
beachnut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2017, 05:09 PM   #373
paloalto
Muse
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 584
Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
Finally, you got nothing on topic, a pure post of stuff which does not support your fantasy conclusions.
It is hard to find 20 pilots who want to die; this is why terrorists are not as likely as a car accident to kill us. 19 idiots is all UBL could find, 4 failed pilots who crashed on their first time flying jets.

Hard to find low down murderers. Do you know the topic of the thread? No.
This post was absolutely on topic. The CIA was fully aware of the Bojinka plot and knew that the author of this plot Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, was actually directing this huge al Qaeda terrorist attack that was just about to take place inside of the US.

When Tenet met with President Bush on August 24, 2001 at the Crawford Ranch for a secret 6 hour meeting, Tenet was also fully aware of the following information:

That a huge and spectacular al Qaeda terrorist attack was just about to take place inside of the US that would kill thousands of Americans

That al Qaeda terrorists Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi were inside of the US in order to take part in this horrific attack.

That Zacharias Moussaoui had just been arrested by Minneapolis FBI, who thought Moussaoui was a terrorist trying to get flight training on a B747 simulator, so he could fly a hijacked aircraft into one of the WTC Towers.

That Tenet himself had ordered his spy inside of the FBI HQ’s ITOS unit, Tom Wilshire, to criminally sabotage FBI Agent Steve Bongardt’s criminal investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi by not only hiding from them the fact that Mihdhar and Hazmi had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing, but the fact that Wilshire and the CIA thought that these two al Qaeda terrorists were connected to the warnings the CIA had been receiving from April 2001 of a huge al Qaeda attack inside of the US.

It is all but impossible to believe that Tenet did not give this information to Bush and Rice at either this meeting in Crawford, or at one of the 7 other times Tenet met with Bush prior to the attacks on 9/11.

Tenet knew when this attack took place that there would likely be an investigation looking into why the CIA had deliberately allowed the al Qaeda terrorists to murder thousands of Americans particularly when the CIA knew this attack was just about to take place and even knew that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US in order to take part in this attack.

Tenet was aware that if any investigation took place, the investigators would find out that Tenet himself had ordered his spy inside of the FBI, Tom Wilshire, to criminally sabotage FBI Agent Steve Bongardt’s investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi. It was also clear that Tenet knew when this investigation or investigations took place, if he gave Bush the information, he was aware of, Bush would be forced to defend him, else the world would know that the President himself had deliberately allowed this horrific attack to take place.

Tenet knew if he gave him the information he had to President Bush, Bush would be forced to make sure the investigations after the al Qaeda terrorist attack took place, were sabotaged either by limiting funds for any investigation, or by withholding information from these investigations, or by allowing the CIA to slow walk any information they were required to provide to these investigations, and by making sure Republicans would be added to any investigation, to either a possible congressional joint inquiry of 9/11 or an independent commission in investigating this attack, to insure that they were going to protect the President, and to insure that the preordained conclusion of any of these investigations would be that no one should be blamed for having deliberately allowing these attacks to take place.

It is highly probable when Tenet give the information he had to Bush, Tenet wanted to finally find out once and for all, did the President want the al Qaeda terrorist attack to be stopped or did the President want the CIA to do nothing to interfere with this horrific terrorist attack. The fact that Tenet flew down to Crawford for an urgent meeting with President Bush on August 24, 2001, just after Tenet found out that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US and that Moussaoui had just been arrested, and then stated at the April 14 2004 public 9/11 Commission hearing, that he gave no one this information, and raised no alarm even when Tenet knew by hiding this horrific information, thousands of Americans were just about to be murdered, is iron clad proof that Bush had ordered Tenet to do nothing to interfere or stop this huge attack.

In fact when Tenet himself publicably stated that he gave no one this information and did not raise any alarm and even lied to the 9/11 Commission about this meeting with Bush on August 24, 2001, and then obfuscated what he told the President from August 24, 2001 to September 11, 2001, makes no sense at all unless Bush had directly ordered Tenet not to stop this attack. This is absolutely the only possible way these horrific facts make any sense at all.

Last edited by paloalto; 18th January 2017 at 05:21 PM.
paloalto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2017, 05:50 PM   #374
beachnut
Penultimate Amazing
 
beachnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 24,789
Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
This post was absolutely on topic.... .
Yes, thus your claim of being on topic, uses the same logic you use to make up fantasy conclusions which are not valid.

Wow, now in your fantasy world, 9/11 would be done by 17 terrorists. Did you say you knew 9/11 was coming, told people, and they ignored you? Do you write a lot of fiction? Do you read Tom Clancy?
__________________
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" - Albert Einstein
"... education as the means of developing our greatest abilities" - JFK
https://folding.stanford.edu/ fold with your computer - join team 13232
beachnut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2017, 06:28 PM   #375
Axxman300
Graduate Poster
 
Axxman300's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 1,976
Funny,

You leave out the July 10, 2001 emergency meeting with Rice where Blee and Cofer Black told them:

"There will be significant terrorist attacks against the United States in the coming weeks or months. The attacks will be spectacular. They may be multiple. Al Qaeda's intention is the destruction of the United States.’"

This was the meeting where Rice was advised to put the nation on a "wartime footing".
* source: http://www.politico.com/magazine/sto...11-bush-213353

At no time was the idea of hijacked airliners flying into buildings discussed, only multiple, large scale attacks.

You ignore the chain of information, the fact that the NSA had recorded/logged communications with the hijackers and their handlers in Europe, but never listened to these calls. You ignore the fact that both the Bush and Clinton Administrations had a "look the other way" policy regarding Saudi and middle easterner travel into the US at the bidding of a number of oil companies.

The only government conspiracy is the embrace of the stupid. We have seen it many times since 9-11, the best example being The Boston Bombers, where the Russians called the FBI to warn them that the older brother had been hanging out with known terrorists. Political Correctness is the rule of the day, as it was in the years prior to 9-11. In the employee break rooms of American Airlines there were posters warning ticket counter personnel that racial profiling would get them fired.

Nobody in the Bush White House let 9-11 happen, they just didn't take terrorism seriously.
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha
Axxman300 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2017, 01:16 AM   #376
Cosmic Yak
Graduate Poster
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 1,775
Originally Posted by paloalto View Post

That Zacharias Moussaoui had just been arrested by Minneapolis FBI, who thought Moussaoui was a terrorist trying to get flight training on a B747 simulator, so he could fly a hijacked aircraft into one of the WTC Towers.
Do you have any evidence for this statement? I attach a detailed report from the Office of the Inspector General, about the FBI investigation into Moussaoui. I can find no mention of this supposed fact that the FBI thought he wanted to " fly a hijacked aircraft into one of the WTC Towers".
https://oig.justice.gov/special/s0606/chapter4.htm
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2017, 06:54 PM   #377
paloalto
Muse
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 584
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Do you have any evidence for this statement? I attach a detailed report from the Office of the Inspector General, about the FBI investigation into Moussaoui. I can find no mention of this supposed fact that the FBI thought he wanted to " fly a hijacked aircraft into one of the WTC Towers".
https://oig.justice.gov/special/s0606/chapter4.htm
From the DOJ IG report:
Special Report
(November 2004), Released Publicly June 2006
Office of the Inspector General

Chapter Four , The FBI’s Investigation of Zacharias Moussaoui


Henry is FBI Special Agent Harry Samit

Gary is FBI Special Agent Harry Samit’s direct supervisor

Rowley is Coleen Rowley CDC of the Minneapolis FBI office

Martin Is Michael Maltbie, FBI Agent working under David Frasca

Don is David Frasca, Head of the FBI RFU unit and Maltbie’s supervisor

The CIA manager working at the ITOS unit as a consultant is CIA officer Tom Wilshire

“According to Rowley, Henry came to her office sometime after his conversation with FBI Headquarters and conferred with her about whether to seek a criminal search warrant in the Moussaoui case. Rowley said this occurred on or about August 22. Rowley told the OIG that, until this point, she had not been actively involved in the Moussaoui investigation, although she had had a brief discussion with Gary on the night of Moussaoui’s arrest.

As discussed above, Rowley was the CDC for the Minneapolis FBI.
After his meeting with Martin and Robin, Howard sent an e-mail dated August 22 to Minneapolis CDC Rowley. In the e-mail, he asked whether she had been asked for her “assessment of [ Minneapolis’] chances of getting a [criminal] warrant” for Moussaoui’s computer.

Also on August 24, the same day that Henry was exchanging e-mails with the CIA employee about obtaining information to connect Moussaoui to a foreign power, a CIA manager [aka Tom Wilshire] who was working in ITOS at FBI Headquarters as a “consultant” on intelligence issues e-mailed Don about the Moussaoui case. The CIA manager asked whether leads had been sent out to obtain additional biographical information, including any overseas numbers, and whether the FBI had obtained photographs and could provide them to the CIA. Martin responded to the e-mail and provided an update stating that requests for information and photographs already had been sent to the appropriate foreign intelligence agencies and to the CIA, and that the Minneapolis FBI had sent telephone numbers and addresses from Moussaoui’s and Al-Attas’ “pocket litter” to the CIA.132 Martin concluded the e-mail by writing, “[p]lease bear in mind that there is no indication that either of these two had plans for nefarious activity as was apparently indicated in an earlier communication.” (Emphasis in original.)

[NOTE: Beyond all belief at this time, August 24, 2001, both Tom Wilshire (and CIA Director George Tenet) already knew that both Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US in order to take part in a massive al Qaeda terrorist attack that would kill thousands of Americans. Both knew that this attack was just about to take place. Wilshire had sent email back to the CIA on July 5, 2001, that stated that Mihdhar and Hazmi were connected to the warnings of huge al Qaeda attack, and his email ( to Blee, Black and Tenet) on July 23, 2001 stated that specifically Khalid al-Mihdhar would be found at the location of the next big al Qaeda terrorist attack. (See DE 939)

Why didn’t Wilshire immediately tell Maltbie that two al Qaeda terrorists Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US, in order to take part in this massive al Qaeda terrorist attack that would kill thousands of Americans? Wilshire was told by FBI Margaret Gillespie, an FBI Agent at the CIA bin Laden unit, on August 21, 2001 that both Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US.

Why didn’t Wilshire immediately call FBI Agent Harry Samit and give him this information It is clear that if he had, Samit could have gotten an FISA warrant, found the receipt from Ramzi bin al-Shibh in Moussaoui’s duffle bag and connected bin al-Shibh to his roommates, Mohammed Atta, Marwan al-Shehhi, and Ziad Harrah, three of the pilots on 9/11.

Tenet publicably told the 9/11 Commission on April 14, 2004, that after he knew a huge al Qaeda terrorist attack was just about to take place inside of the US that would kill thousands of Americans, knew Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US in order to take part in this attack and then found out Moussaoui had been arrested by Minneapolis FBI on August 23, 2001, that he gave this information to no one, not the FBI agents trying to get a FISA warrant, not the President of the United Sates, even though he had eight meetings with the President, after he found this information out, not the Principles, the cabinet members on September 4, at the only Principles meeting in the White House on the al Qaeda terrorists.

This information makes it obvious to even the most unenlightened reader that both Tom Wilshire and George Tenet had deliberately allowed the al Qaeda terrorists to murder almost 3000 people on 9/11.

The DOJ IG investigators had interviewed Wilshire and knew he was aware of this huge attack , they even had his emails from July 5, 2001 and July 23, 2001, these emails themselves came from the DOJ IG investigations. So why did the DOJ IG report not point out in the report detailed above these horrific facts?

The 9/11 Commission also had all of this information, they stated that they had all of the interviews from the DOJ IG investigation. Why didn’t the 9/11 Commission point out this information in the 9/11 Commission report, the document that was self-described as the most complete record of 9/11.

Were both of these reports obfuscated to hide this information and these connections as to why the attacks on 9/11 were allowed to take place, by many people in the US government, including the highest official at the CIA and Bush administration?]

Dispute between Minneapolis and Martin (Michael Maltbie)

Around this time, Gary and Henry were becoming increasingly frustrated with the advice from Martin that they lacked sufficient information linking Moussaoui to a foreign power. On Monday, August 27, in a telephone call between Martin and Gary, the tension surfaced.

According to Gary’s notes of the conversation, Martin told them that “what you have done is couched it in such a way that people get spun up.” Gary told the OIG that after Martin made this statement, Gary said “good” and then stated that Minneapolis was trying to keep Moussaoui from crashing an airplane into the World Trade Center. Gary’s notes of the conversation indicate that Gary stated, “We want to make sure he doesn’t get control of an airplane and crash it into the [ World Trade Center] or something like that.” According to Gary’s notes, Martin responded by stating that Minneapolis did not have the evidence to support that Moussaoui was a terrorist. Gary’s notes indicate that Martin also stated, “You have a guy interested in this type of aircraft. That is it.”


Gary’s notes also indicate that the Minneapolis FBI asked Martin whether the FISA request, which had been e-mailed on Saturday, August 25, had been presented to Section Chief Rolince for approval as an emergency FISA. Martin stated that it had not been presented to Rolince.

Gary’s frustration with Martin can be seen in an e-mail Gary sent to Martin on August 27 after their telephone conversation. In the e-mail, Gary advised Martin to contact the CIA employee for more information about Khattab and his connections to Bin Laden in order to support the foreign power portion of the FISA application. Martin responded in an e-mail on August 28 that FBI Headquarters had the latest information on Ibn Khattab and Chechnya, “as this program is administered by our unit,” and that the matter had been discussed with the CIA employee. Martin also wrote, “I need to ask you guys to do me a favor. In the future, please contact and pass info to me and allow me to talk with [an FBI detailee to the CIA] and [the CIA]. Things work much better when our agencies are communicating HQ to HQ.”133

Craig also wrote that the CIA had yet to receive a teletype from the FBI about the matter, which he described as “the only real, official communication between [the two agencies].” Craig also noted in a separate paragraph to Gary that FBI Headquarters “ha[d] a strong handle on the Chechen issue” and that the IOSs at FBI Headquarters were “well connected” to the CIA if they “require[d] anything new.”

Henry told the OIG that he was frustrated with the advice that the Minneapolis FBI was receiving from FBI Headquarters and that he expressed this in a conversation with Martin. Henry said he told Martin that he disagreed with Don’s arguments for not pursuing the criminal warrant. He told the OIG that he had said to Martin:
…if you’re not going to advance this the FISA route, or if you don’t believe we have enough for a FISA, I shudder to think – and that’s all I got out. And [Martin] cut me off and said, you will not question the unit chief and you will not question me. We’ve been through a lot. We know what’s going on. You will not question us. And that could be the mantra for FBI supervisors.”

[NOTE: I flew out to Minneapolis in July 2004, and after I had been interviewed under oath by FBI Agent Coleen Rowley and her boss Joseph Rivers, at the Minneapolis FBI office, I said to her and her boss: I would now like to ask you some questions:

“You had arrested Zacharias Moussaoui and thought he was a terrorist who wanted to fly a large commercial aircraft into the World Trade Center Towers.

How many (major)World Trade Center Towers were there?

I held up two fingers to make sure there would be no mistake on how many towers there were.

Then I asked how many terrorists does it usually take to hijack a large commercial aircraft?

I held up 5 fingers so there would be no mistake.

Then I asked; “so how many total terrorists does this make, if you multiple 2 x 5 what do you get? I said it is obvious this is 10 terrorists”.

I then asked Coleen; “If there were 10 terrorists and you had arrested one, why did you not go and try to find the other 9 terrorists?”

Her answer was that FBI HQ’s had already blown them off on their attempt to get a FISA warrant for Moussaoui’s possessions, and they needed FBI HQ,s permission to start a criminal investigation for the other 9 terrorists, permission they felt they were never going to get.]

Last edited by paloalto; 19th January 2017 at 07:12 PM.
paloalto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2017, 08:50 PM   #378
beachnut
Penultimate Amazing
 
beachnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 24,789
Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
... This information makes it obvious to even the most unenlightened reader that both Tom Wilshire and George Tenet had deliberately allowed the al Qaeda terrorists to murder almost 3000 people on 9/11. ...
No, it is no obvious (except when using failed logic), only you make up BS conclusions like this. There is no evidence to support this lie, and this is off topic in the fantasy Bush thread which does match in logic the way you make conclusions.
__________________
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" - Albert Einstein
"... education as the means of developing our greatest abilities" - JFK
https://folding.stanford.edu/ fold with your computer - join team 13232
beachnut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2017, 01:08 AM   #379
Cosmic Yak
Graduate Poster
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 1,775
Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
From the DOJ IG report:
Special Report
(November 2004), Released Publicly June 2006
Office of the Inspector General

Chapter Four , The FBI’s Investigation of Zacharias Moussaoui



Gary told the OIG that after Martin made this statement, Gary said “good” and then stated that Minneapolis was trying to keep Moussaoui from crashing an airplane into the World Trade Center. Gary’s notes of the conversation indicate that Gary stated, “We want to make sure he doesn’t get control of an airplane and crash it into the [ World Trade Center] or something like that.”
You are using what is quite clearly speculation about the possible target as definitive proof of foreknowledge. Sorry, that won't wash, especially as the same report, the one you ae using to support your position, says this:
Quote:
At the outset of our analysis, we believe it is important to state that we did not conclude that any FBI employee committed intentional misconduct.
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2017, 03:25 PM   #380
lentz1
Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 174
If you sign this petition we can take 9-11 to the next level https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pet...hould-be-there
lentz1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2017, 03:30 PM   #381
fagin
Illuminator
 
fagin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: As far away from casebro as possible.
Posts: 4,620
What level is that? The shelf I keep my toilet paper on?
__________________
There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda
fagin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2017, 03:37 PM   #382
fagin
Illuminator
 
fagin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: As far away from casebro as possible.
Posts: 4,620
In the 16 or so words of your petition I count at least 6 grammatical errors. But at least one person takes you seriously.
Was that one person you?

"1 SIGNED 100,000 GOAL"
__________________
There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda
fagin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2017, 03:50 PM   #383
lentz1
Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 174
I just got started, in about a month the goal will be reached.
lentz1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2017, 04:02 PM   #384
fagin
Illuminator
 
fagin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: As far away from casebro as possible.
Posts: 4,620
Perhaps you should use Twitter. Then Trump might read it.
__________________
There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda
fagin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2017, 04:14 PM   #385
lentz1
Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 174
I'm using this forum instead. Are you going to sign?
lentz1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2017, 04:24 PM   #386
fagin
Illuminator
 
fagin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: As far away from casebro as possible.
Posts: 4,620
Why this forum?

The idiot level is relatively low.
__________________
There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda
fagin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2017, 04:25 PM   #387
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
 
DGM's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,244
Originally Posted by lentz1 View Post
I'm using this forum instead. Are you going to sign?
I see no reason why I should.

Perhaps you could make a logical case in the thread you created for the petition.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=316260

ETA: I'm sorry I thought you created that thread. That would be the place to make your case.
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

"How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41

Last edited by DGM; 4th February 2017 at 04:28 PM.
DGM is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2017, 04:40 PM   #388
lentz1
Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 174
What type of petitions do you usually sign ?
lentz1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2017, 04:42 PM   #389
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
 
DGM's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,244
Originally Posted by lentz1 View Post
What type of petitions do you usually sign ?
Well reasoned ones.
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

"How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41
DGM is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2017, 04:46 PM   #390
lentz1
Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 174
I guess you and I have different reasons.
lentz1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2017, 04:48 PM   #391
lentz1
Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 174
I'm sad some of the one did 9-11 are still at large. Very hard to catch them.
lentz1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2017, 04:49 PM   #392
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
 
DGM's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,244
Originally Posted by lentz1 View Post
I guess you and I have different reasons.
Actually, it appears you can't put yours into words.

The petition lacks information on the obvious question, why?
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

"How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41
DGM is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2017, 04:53 PM   #393
lentz1
Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 174
One of my reasons I can put into words is "honesty".
lentz1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2017, 04:55 PM   #394
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
 
DGM's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,244
Originally Posted by lentz1 View Post
One of my reasons I can put into words is "honesty".
Write it up and I'll take a look.
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

"How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41
DGM is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2017, 04:55 PM   #395
lentz1
Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 174
why what?
lentz1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2017, 04:57 PM   #396
lentz1
Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 174
I'm having hard time understanding you, sorry.
lentz1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2017, 04:57 PM   #397
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
 
DGM's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,244
Originally Posted by lentz1 View Post
why what?
What part did you not understand?
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

"How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41
DGM is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2017, 05:00 PM   #398
lentz1
Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 174
The petition lacks information on the obvious question, why?
lentz1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2017, 05:02 PM   #399
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
 
DGM's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,244
Originally Posted by lentz1 View Post
The petition lacks information on the obvious question, why?
Yes. You don't give a reason to reopen the investigation.
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley

"How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41
DGM is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2017, 05:03 PM   #400
lentz1
Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 174
Yes I did, read below, it says "It is important for the American people so the truth finally comes out."
lentz1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:00 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.