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Tags CIA conspiracies , CIA issues , CIA-FBI relations

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Old 18th January 2017, 11:53 AM   #1
Allen773
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My own 9/11 CT: the CIA didn't inform the FBI of al Qaeda members entering the US...

...because if they had done so, the FBI would almost certainly have moved in to arrest them and have them prosecuted in the criminal justice system - just as they had already done so with Ramzi Yousef and most of the other men involved in the 1993 WTC bombing.

"But wait a second, Allen - wouldn't arresting and prosecuting known al Qaeda operatives in the US have unequivocally been a good thing?"

Well, you have to look at this from the perspective of the CIA from before 9/11 to understand why they might have failed to inform the FBI. See, the CIA is not legally allowed to operate within the United States; consequently, their mission exclusively deals with foreign affairs. In that respect, they overlap with the State Department. And both the CIA and the State Department, therefore, do their best to be very sensitive and careful (generally speaking) in regard to building and maintaining relationships with other countries - particularly countries with strong economic and military ties to the US. Countries like Saudi Arabia.

In contrast, the FBI's mission is to investigate and bring to justice people suspected or known to have committed federal crimes. Their jurisdiction is thus within the United States criminal justice system. They are naturally focused on domestic matters, in other words.

From the perspective of the CIA, therefore, even though known al Qaeda operatives entering the US undoubtedly would set of all kinds of alarm bells - and would certainly be seen as a scandalous failure (which after 9/11, obviously turned out to be the case), the FBI moving in to arrest and prosecute said operatives would have dangerously jeopardized the CIA's relationships with Saudi intelligence, as well as broader US-Saudi Arabia relations.

Remember, there is an alarming amount of evidence that at least some people within the Saudi intelligence and foreign affairs ministries - specifically, in the case of al-Hazmi and al-Midhar, the Saudi consulate in Los Los Angeles (if I recall correctly) - assisted the 9/11 hijackers and al-Qaeda more broadly. And the Kingdom's funding - both directly and indirectly - of the same kind of hard-line, violently intolerant form of Islam from which al-Qaeda (led by the prominent Saudi Osama bin Laden and consisting in large part of Saudi-born operatives, including 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers) sprung from is both infamous and extensively documented.

In light of all of this, the US government - and especially the CIA and the State Department - had to tread very carefully when it came to dealing with the Saudi government. And the CIA simply didn't trust the FBI to not jeopardize the entire relationship - including what little cooperation the Saudis were offering in the CIA's fight against al-Qaeda pre-9/11, as well as the potential for any cooperation in the future, for that matter.

Is a lot of this speculative and ultimately, not provable? Of course it is. But certainly no more so than any other of the 9/11 CT's, and I'd like to think that I have more real evidence to back up at least some of these speculations. Obviously though, I don't know any of this for sure, and I'm perfectly OK with admitting that.

Last edited by Allen773; 18th January 2017 at 01:29 PM.
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Old 18th January 2017, 12:35 PM   #2
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I've got bad news for your CT career: realistic conspiracy theories don't sell. You have to spice it up with Hollywood-like elements: remotely controlled planes, ninja arsonists, bombs, missiles, fighter jets...

Sorry, couldn't resist.
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Old 18th January 2017, 12:35 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
...because if they had done so, the FBI would almost certainly have moved in to arrest them and have them prosecuted in the criminal justice system - just as they had already done so with Ramzi Yousef and most of the other men involved in the 1993 WTC bombing.
Which al Qaeda members?

Arrest and prosecute them for what?
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Old 18th January 2017, 01:38 PM   #4
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Al Qaeda can be described as a renegade faction of Saudi Wahabbism, and as such, the relationship between the House of Saud and AQ is ambiguous - AQ is offspring from Saud's loin, OBL the delinquent son who raised his hand against his parents. They must defend against him, punish him, and yet they'd naturally feel inclined to protect him from attack by outsiders.

I don't know that prosecuting AQ operatives - assuming there were viable legal grounds - would have strained US-Saudi relations so much that it wouldn't have been worth preventing a major terrorist attack (even if perhaps the magnitude had not been expected). The USS Cole attack (October 2000) was fresh on everyone's memory and high on the CIA's list of priorities. It should not have terribly difficult to "sell" to the Saudi government that AQ members on US soil be apprehended and stopped.
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Old 18th January 2017, 01:40 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
I've got bad news for your CT career: realistic conspiracy theories don't sell. You have to spice it up with Hollywood-like elements: remotely controlled planes, ninja arsonists, bombs, missiles, fighter jets...

Sorry, couldn't resist.
Dang it! And I had just finished the final draft of my book, Debunking the Disinfo Agents: The Real 9/11 Conspiracy!

Plan B: Make a grainy, poorly edited YouTube video featuring out-of-context quotes of elected officials and government bureaucrats, ominous narration (which would, of course, be full of bad-faith accusations/concern trolling/JAQ), and expert commentary from David Ray Griffin, Richard Gage, and...you get the idea.
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Old 18th January 2017, 04:01 PM   #6
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palo alto posting in 3.... 2.... 1.....

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Old 18th January 2017, 04:06 PM   #7
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Needs more thermite.
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Old 18th January 2017, 04:51 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Needs more thermite.
Everything goes better with more thermite
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Old 18th January 2017, 05:18 PM   #9
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You need a couple strontium Cobalt F3 fusion bombs. Magno nukes the Minnie nukes Idea is too small.
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Old 18th January 2017, 05:29 PM   #10
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Old 18th January 2017, 05:47 PM   #11
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19 terrorists did 9/11, now 17 did it? We could do a Clownstick thing, and arrest and deport them all...

And then there is McVeigh... wonder if paloalto knew Tim was going to do OKC.
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Old 18th January 2017, 05:53 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Mark F View Post
Everything goes better with more thermite
And cow bells........
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Old 18th January 2017, 07:20 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Needs more thermite.
I got a fever!
And the only cure...
Is more thermite!
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Old 18th January 2017, 07:23 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
I've got bad news for your CT career: realistic conspiracy theories don't sell. You have to spice it up with Hollywood-like elements: remotely controlled planes, ninja arsonists, bombs, missiles, fighter jets...

Sorry, couldn't resist.
I have to agree. Allen's CT is almost plausible. He needs to think of a more intricately absurd plan with dozens of moving parts so only internet sleuths will be able to figure it out....because it's obvious.
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Old 18th January 2017, 07:26 PM   #15
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Ummm, it's not a conspiracy if it's territorial incompetence.

This is not new news.
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Old 18th January 2017, 07:39 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
And cow bells........
I do have a fever. If only there were a prescription,...
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Old 18th January 2017, 07:44 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
Dang it! And I had just finished the final draft of my book, Debunking the Disinfo Agents: The Real 9/11 Conspiracy!

Plan B: Make a grainy, poorly edited YouTube video featuring out-of-context quotes of elected officials and government bureaucrats, ominous narration (which would, of course, be full of bad-faith accusations/concern trolling/JAQ), and expert commentary from David Ray Griffin, Richard Gage, and...you get the idea.
Needs a good visual, ala WTC7 collapsing - with the penthouse part beforehand cut out, because that would distract from your message, and confuse the simple.
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Old 18th January 2017, 11:07 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
...because if they had done so, the FBI would almost certainly have moved in to arrest them and have them prosecuted in the criminal justice system - just as they had already done so with Ramzi Yousef and most of the other men involved in the 1993 WTC bombing.

"But wait a second, Allen - wouldn't arresting and prosecuting known al Qaeda operatives in the US have unequivocally been a good thing?"

Well, you have to look at this from the perspective of the CIA from before 9/11 to understand why they might have failed to inform the FBI. See, the CIA is not legally allowed to operate within the United States; consequently, their mission exclusively deals with foreign affairs. In that respect, they overlap with the State Department. And both the CIA and the State Department, therefore, do their best to be very sensitive and careful (generally speaking) in regard to building and maintaining relationships with other countries - particularly countries with strong economic and military ties to the US. Countries like Saudi Arabia.

In contrast, the FBI's mission is to investigate and bring to justice people suspected or known to have committed federal crimes. Their jurisdiction is thus within the United States criminal justice system. They are naturally focused on domestic matters, in other words.

From the perspective of the CIA, therefore, even though known al Qaeda operatives entering the US undoubtedly would set of all kinds of alarm bells - and would certainly be seen as a scandalous failure (which after 9/11, obviously turned out to be the case), the FBI moving in to arrest and prosecute said operatives would have dangerously jeopardized the CIA's relationships with Saudi intelligence, as well as broader US-Saudi Arabia relations.

Remember, there is an alarming amount of evidence that at least some people within the Saudi intelligence and foreign affairs ministries - specifically, in the case of al-Hazmi and al-Midhar, the Saudi consulate in Los Los Angeles (if I recall correctly) - assisted the 9/11 hijackers and al-Qaeda more broadly. And the Kingdom's funding - both directly and indirectly - of the same kind of hard-line, violently intolerant form of Islam from which al-Qaeda (led by the prominent Saudi Osama bin Laden and consisting in large part of Saudi-born operatives, including 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers) sprung from is both infamous and extensively documented.

In light of all of this, the US government - and especially the CIA and the State Department - had to tread very carefully when it came to dealing with the Saudi government. And the CIA simply didn't trust the FBI to not jeopardize the entire relationship - including what little cooperation the Saudis were offering in the CIA's fight against al-Qaeda pre-9/11, as well as the potential for any cooperation in the future, for that matter.

Is a lot of this speculative and ultimately, not provable? Of course it is. But certainly no more so than any other of the 9/11 CT's, and I'd like to think that I have more real evidence to back up at least some of these speculations. Obviously though, I don't know any of this for sure, and I'm perfectly OK with admitting that.
Almost plausible, though not the true reason. The main reason that the CIA didn't tell was because they believed that the two would provide them with the ability to get a person inside of Al Qaeda, something that hadn't been even close to possible prior to then, and they didn't want the FBI charging in boots and all and arresting them for the Cole and ruining what they were considering their best opportunity at infiltration.
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Old 22nd January 2017, 03:52 PM   #19
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Lightbulb

Needs more Illuminati and Dancing Jews on the Pentagon.

Here's a tip: Say that half of the Israelian population travelled to NYC on 10 september, so that they could dance on top of the Pentagon one day later.

Oh, and add that all the towers were blown up with SCCD's (Silent Cloaked Controlled Demolitions), 50 were used, while bazooka and nuclear bombs were thrown at Ground Zero. And try to link the nuclear bomb thing to that idiotic emergency "plan" that the Pentagon came up with in 2014.
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Old 22nd January 2017, 10:22 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
...because if they had done so, the FBI would almost certainly have moved in to arrest them and have them prosecuted in the criminal justice system - just as they had already done so with Ramzi Yousef and most of the other men involved in the 1993 WTC bombing.

"But wait a second, Allen - wouldn't arresting and prosecuting known al Qaeda operatives in the US have unequivocally been a good thing?"

Well, you have to look at this from the perspective of the CIA from before 9/11 to understand why they might have failed to inform the FBI. See, the CIA is not legally allowed to operate within the United States; consequently, their mission exclusively deals with foreign affairs. In that respect, they overlap with the State Department. And both the CIA and the State Department, therefore, do their best to be very sensitive and careful (generally speaking) in regard to building and maintaining relationships with other countries - particularly countries with strong economic and military ties to the US. Countries like Saudi Arabia.

In contrast, the FBI's mission is to investigate and bring to justice people suspected or known to have committed federal crimes. Their jurisdiction is thus within the United States criminal justice system. They are naturally focused on domestic matters, in other words.

From the perspective of the CIA, therefore, even though known al Qaeda operatives entering the US undoubtedly would set of all kinds of alarm bells - and would certainly be seen as a scandalous failure (which after 9/11, obviously turned out to be the case), the FBI moving in to arrest and prosecute said operatives would have dangerously jeopardized the CIA's relationships with Saudi intelligence, as well as broader US-Saudi Arabia relations.

Remember, there is an alarming amount of evidence that at least some people within the Saudi intelligence and foreign affairs ministries - specifically, in the case of al-Hazmi and al-Midhar, the Saudi consulate in Los Los Angeles (if I recall correctly) - assisted the 9/11 hijackers and al-Qaeda more broadly. And the Kingdom's funding - both directly and indirectly - of the same kind of hard-line, violently intolerant form of Islam from which al-Qaeda (led by the prominent Saudi Osama bin Laden and consisting in large part of Saudi-born operatives, including 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers) sprung from is both infamous and extensively documented.

In light of all of this, the US government - and especially the CIA and the State Department - had to tread very carefully when it came to dealing with the Saudi government. And the CIA simply didn't trust the FBI to not jeopardize the entire relationship - including what little cooperation the Saudis were offering in the CIA's fight against al-Qaeda pre-9/11, as well as the potential for any cooperation in the future, for that matter.

Is a lot of this speculative and ultimately, not provable? Of course it is. But certainly no more so than any other of the 9/11 CT's, and I'd like to think that I have more real evidence to back up at least some of these speculations. Obviously though, I don't know any of this for sure, and I'm perfectly OK with admitting that.
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Almost plausible, though not the true reason. The main reason that the CIA didn't tell was because they believed that the two would provide them with the ability to get a person inside of Al Qaeda, something that hadn't been even close to possible prior to then, and they didn't want the FBI charging in boots and all and arresting them for the Cole and ruining what they were considering their best opportunity at infiltration.
Correct.

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Old 23rd January 2017, 02:17 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by cjnewson88 View Post
Correct.

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Old 24th January 2017, 09:05 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
”..The USS Cole attack (October 2000) was fresh on everyone's memory and high on the CIA's list of priorities…”
Maybe the USS Liberty attacks should have been on their minds as well.
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Old 24th January 2017, 09:38 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Criteria View Post
Maybe the USS Liberty attacks should have been on their minds as well.

Why?
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Old 24th January 2017, 10:21 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Why?
Because as a CT he just had to sneak that one in there.
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Old 24th January 2017, 12:24 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Criteria View Post
Maybe the USS Liberty attacks should have been on their minds as well.
Those joos, eh? Just having a hard time with them, are ya?
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Old 24th January 2017, 04:01 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Criteria View Post
Maybe the USS Liberty attacks should have been on their minds as well.
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Why?
I can't wait how this is tied to 9/11, 19 murderers and four planes... I bet OKC and JFK are next.

(9/11 truth believers don't answer questions, _()
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Old 24th January 2017, 05:16 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Almost plausible, though not the true reason. The main reason that the CIA didn't tell was because they believed that the two would provide them with the ability to get a person inside of Al Qaeda, something that hadn't been even close to possible prior to then, and they didn't want the FBI charging in boots and all and arresting them for the Cole and ruining what they were considering their best opportunity at infiltration.
According to the official US government documents both theories are wrong. There is not one single piece of information that shows where the CIA ever tried to recruit these two al Qaeda terrorists, Mihdhar and Hazmi.

Richard Clarke claimed this was true, in an article in ABC NEWS that detailed his conclusions:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...ry?id=40697425

According to this article:

"Among those dangling strands of the investigation, two stand out. The first, the subject of these 28 pages, is what role Saudi government officials played in supporting al-Qaeda and the 9/11 plot.

The second question, with which the 9/11 Commission struggled but was unable to answer, is why the CIA failed to tell the FBI and the White House when the agency knew about al-Qaeda terrorists in the United States.

US Declassifies Secret 9/11 Documents Known as the '28 Pages'
I believe that the two questions may be linked and that a major element of the 9/11 tragedy may remain unrevealed: a possible failed CIA-Saudi spy mission on U.S. soil that went bad and eventually allowed 9/11 to proceed unimpeded."

But the evidence available today details why this theory is incorrect:

See http://abcnews.go.com/International/...ry?id=40697425

From the comments:

"But this article is absolutely absurd, asinine in the extreme and shows a profound ignorance by Richard Clarke of actually what had occurred that had allowed the attacks on 9/11 to take place.

FBI Agent Margaret Gillespie, who was working in the Bin Laden unit at the CIA, Alec Station, sent an email to Tom Wilshire on August 21, 2001, immediately after she was told by the INS that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US. Wilshire, a CIA officer, in fact the very officer that had blocked the information on Mihdhar from going to the FBI on January 5, 2000, was working as Deputy Chief of the ITOS unit the one FBI HQ’s unit that was in charge of all FBI investigation of al Qaeda terrorists in the world.
This is over three weeks prior to the attacks on 9/11 and plenty of time to have allowed the FBI criminal investigators to find these known al Qaeda terrorists before they took part in any attack inside of the US. At this point in fact both the CIA and FBI HQ knew these terrorists were inside of the US in order to carry out just such a huge al Qaeda terrorist attack.

On August 22, 2001 a meeting was held in Wilshire’s FBI office, where Wilshire had Gillespie take the information that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US back to the CIA bin laden unit, and had FBI Agent Dina Corsi write up an EC to start a intelligence investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi. This information went right to Richard Blee, and then to Cofer Black who as very close to Blee, and then to Tenet who was close to Black. All three of these CIA managers had just been at the White House on July 10, 2001, telling Rice, Hadley and Clarke that a huge al Qaeda attack was about to take place, aimed right at the US that would kill many Americans.

So three weeks prior to the attacks on 9/11 both the CIA and FBI HQs knew that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US, knew that these terrorists were going to take part in a massive terrorist attack that would kill thousands of Americans, but kept this information completely secret from the FBI criminal investigators in the New York office on the Cole bombing, even when both agencies knew that Mihdhar and Hazmi had actually taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing, in fact both agencies even had even had photographic proof of this.

Wilshire had been ordered by the CIA twice, on July 13, 201 and again on July 23, 2001, just three days after the White House meeting, to hide the information that Mihdhar and Hazmi had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing from the FBI Cole bombing investigators, when the CIA knew a huge al Qaeda terrorist attack was just about to take place inside of the US, knew it would kill thousands of Americans, and even knew by ordering Wilshire to hide this information from the Cole bombing investigators it would keep them from having the “probable cause” they needed in order to start a criminal investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi.

The CIA and Wilshire clearly knew that if the FBI could not start a criminal investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi, [if or when these terrorists were found inside of the US], these agents on the Cole bombing would be prevented from stopping this huge attack, and hence thousands of Americans would be murdered as a [direct] result of their actions to criminally obstruct this FBI investigation.

To believe either of these two theories presented you would have to believe that the CIA and FBI allowed 3000 people to be murdered on 9/11 so that the CIA could recruit these terrorists, when the CIA had never even contacted these two terrorists or so as not to unset the US relations with Saudi Arabia.

This makes no sense what so ever.
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Old 28th January 2017, 06:21 PM   #28
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The CIA did not know the attack would kill thousands of people. They would not have known the extent of what was going to happen. They probably thought it was just be one hijacking that lands on the ground and maybe gets a couple of people hurt. Had the CIA known that 3000 people would be killed and a huge area of lower Manhattan flattened, then I bet their activities leading up to 9/11 would be very, very different.

Richard Clarke's theory is just that, a theory, with little evidence to back it up. However he does make several very clear points;

1. Why was the White House never told that two known al Qaeda terrorists were inside the US over a period of 8 months, when 50 CIA workers knew of this.

2. Why was this information not in the daily threat matrix? According to Clarke, everything goes into this matrix. The only way this sort of information would not go into it, is if someone deliberately steps in and stops it. So regardless of whether the CIA tells him or not, he should have already know this information via this threat matrix.

3. Why did the CIA physically prevent this information from going to the FBI?

4. Why on July 10 2001 did the CIA not tell the White House anything about the 2 al Qaeda members, while they were pleading for acting against al Qaeda?

Clarke's theory that they were ass-covering for some reason does tend to make sense. Otherwise they would have no reason to keep this information secrete.
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Old 29th January 2017, 05:26 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
... At this point in fact both the CIA and FBI HQ knew these terrorists were inside of the US in order to carry out just such a huge al Qaeda terrorist attack. ... ... All three of these CIA managers had just been at the White House on July 10, 2001, telling Rice, Hadley and Clarke that a huge al Qaeda attack was about to take place, aimed right at the US that would kill many Americans. ... both the CIA and FBI HQs knew that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US, knew that these terrorists were going to take part in a massive terrorist attack that would kill thousands of Americans, but kept this information completely secret from the FBI criminal investigators ... when the CIA knew a huge al Qaeda terrorist attack was just about to take place inside of the US, knew it would kill thousands of Americans ... you would have to believe that the CIA and FBI allowed 3000 people to be murdered on 9/11 so that the CIA could recruit these terrorists ...
You are overplaying your card hugely.
In fact, I am sure you are making this stuff up - that US agents knew a big attack with that many victims was just around the corner and that the two AQ operatives were a part of this. This is probably a case of 20:20 hindsight.

Reconsider!
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Old 29th January 2017, 07:17 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by cjnewson88 View Post
The CIA did not know the attack would kill thousands of people. They would not have known the extent of what was going to happen. They probably thought it was just be one hijacking that lands on the ground and maybe gets a couple of people hurt. Had the CIA known that 3000 people would be killed and a huge area of lower Manhattan flattened, then I bet their activities leading up to 9/11 would be very, very different.

Richard Clarke's theory is just that, a theory, with little evidence to back it up. However he does make several very clear points;

1. Why was the White House never told that two known al Qaeda terrorists were inside the US over a period of 8 months, when 50 CIA workers knew of this.

2. Why was this information not in the daily threat matrix? According to Clarke, everything goes into this matrix. The only way this sort of information would not go into it, is if someone deliberately steps in and stops it. So regardless of whether the CIA tells him or not, he should have already know this information via this threat matrix.

3. Why did the CIA physically prevent this information from going to the FBI?

4. Why on July 10 2001 did the CIA not tell the White House anything about the 2 al Qaeda members, while they were pleading for acting against al Qaeda?

Clarke's theory that they were ass-covering for some reason does tend to make sense. Otherwise they would have no reason to keep this information secrete.

It is even worse than the questions you posed makes it out to be.

As I wrote in my prior post:

"FBI Agent Margaret Gillespie, who was working in the Bin Laden unit at the CIA, Alec Station, sent an email to Tom Wilshire on August 21, 2001, immediately after she was told by the INS that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US. Wilshire, a CIA officer, in fact the very officer that had blocked the information on Mihdhar from going to the FBI on January 5, 2000, was working as Deputy Chief of the ITOS unit the one FBI HQ’s unit that was in charge of all FBI investigation of al Qaeda terrorists in the world.

This is over three weeks prior to the attacks on 9/11 and plenty of time to have allowed the FBI criminal investigators to find these known al Qaeda terrorists before they took part in any attack inside of the US. At this point in fact both the CIA and FBI HQ knew these terrorists were inside of the US in order to carry out just such a huge al Qaeda terrorist attack.

On August 22, 2001 a meeting was held in Wilshire’s FBI office, where Wilshire had Gillespie take the information that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US back to the CIA bin Laden unit, and had FBI Agent Dina Corsi write up an EC to start a intelligence investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi. This information went right to Richard Blee, and then to Cofer Black who as very close to Blee, and then to Tenet who was close to Black. All three of these CIA managers had just been at the White House on July 10, 2001, telling Rice, Hadley and Clarke that a huge al Qaeda attack was about to take place, aimed right at the US that would kill many Americans.

So three weeks prior to the attacks on 9/11 both the CIA and FBI HQs knew that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US, knew that these terrorists were going to take part in a massive terrorist attack that would kill thousands of Americans, but kept this information completely secret from the FBI criminal investigators in the New York office on the Cole bombing, even when both agencies even knew that Mihdhar and Hazmi had actually taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing, in fact both agencies even had even had photographic proof of this."

Again over three weeks prior to the attacks on 9/11, both the CIA, and their top leaders and FBI HQ's knew that al Qaeda terrorists Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi were inside of the US in order to take part in a massive al Qaeda terrorist attack that would kill thousands of Americans.

How do we know this? Because in the DOJ IG report, Tom Wilshire, former Deputy Chief of the CIA bin Laden unit and at the time of this email Deputy Chief of the FBI ITOS unit, sends an email back to the CIA on July 5 2001, that stated that the people at the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting in January 2000, Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi, were connected to the warnings of a huge al Qaeda terrorist attack, an attack that was likely to take place inside of the US. According to George Tenet's own book, in late July 2001, when he asked at a meeting at the CIA, where will this huge attack take place, Richard Blee, stated that "They are coming here".

Then on July 23, 2001, Wilshire sends another email back to his CTC managers at the CIA, Richard Blee, and Cofer Black, who would have given this email to Tenet, first asking what had happened to his July 13, 2001 request to send the Kuala Lumpur information over to the FBI, the FBI Cole bombing investigators, and second that when the next big al Qaeda terrorist attack takes place, Khalid al-Mihdhar will be found at the location of this attack and should be of high interest, anyway given his connection to [the Cole bombing]. Wilshire was never given permission to give this information to the FBI, information that could have prevented the attacks on 9/11.

It was clear that the information Wilshire wanted to send to the FBI Cole bombing investigators was the fact that the CIA had found out on January 4, 2001, that Walid bin Attash, mastermind of the Cole bombing, was at the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting, with Mihdhar and Hazmi, information that proved to the CIA that these two al Qaeda terrorists had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing.

From the time the CIA positively found out that both Mihdhar and Hazmi had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing, they went to extraordinary and great lengths to make sure this information never reached the FBI. First the CIA had secretly made this positive identification of bin Attash, from his photograph taken at the Kuala Lumpur meeting, with the joint FBI/CIA source, only when the CIA Alat had given the FBI agent who was also at the debriefing of the joint source, documents to photo copy and was out of the room where the debriefing was taking place.

Then this information was kept secret from the FBI agent who was at the debriefing, and Tenet ordered all cables sent to the FBI and the White House, that originated from the Pakistan CIA station, and all other CIA stations that had this information, to be scrubbed of any and all information, that there had been an al Qaeda planning meeting in Kuala Lumpur and that Khalid al-Mihdhar and Walid bin Attash had been at that meeting.

The fact that this information was kept secret from the FBI Cole bombing investigators has never been explained by the CIA, or any investigation even though numerous investigation had taken place, which should have uncovered the reasons the CIA hid this information from the FBI until after the attacks on 9/11 had taken place, the Pentbomb investigation, the Joint Inquiry Committee investigation, the 9/11 Commission investigation, the DOJ IG investigation and report on 9/11 and the CIA IG investigation and report on 9/11.

How hard would it have been to ask Tenet at the Joint Inquiry public hearings or the 9/11 Public hearings and then get a reasonable answer; Why did you hide the fact that Mihdhar and Hazmi had been at the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting planning the Cole bombing and why did you not immediately tell if the FBI criminal investigators that both Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US in order to take part in a horrific terrorist attack that would kill thousands of Americans?

The fact that this was the number one question coming out of the attacks on 9/11, and still has never been answered, why the CIA and FBI HQ's had deliberately allowed the al Qaeda terrorists to murder almost 3000 people on 9/11, is iron clad proof that all of these investigations were criminally sabotaged and that the orders to the CIA and FBI HQ's to allow this huge terrorist attack could only have come from the highest officials in the US government.

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Old 29th January 2017, 08:20 PM   #31
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You keep overbidding your hand.
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Old 29th January 2017, 10:26 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
You keep overbidding your hand.
Go to bed... the copy and paste gish gallop presented is not up to your standards
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Old 30th January 2017, 02:36 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
It is even worse than the questions you posed makes it out to be.

As I wrote in my prior post:

"FBI Agent Margaret Gillespie, who was working in the Bin Laden unit at the CIA, Alec Station, sent an email to Tom Wilshire on August 21, 2001, immediately after she was told by the INS that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US. Wilshire, a CIA officer, in fact the very officer that had blocked the information on Mihdhar from going to the FBI on January 5, 2000, was working as Deputy Chief of the ITOS unit the one FBI HQ’s unit that was in charge of all FBI investigation of al Qaeda terrorists in the world.

This is over three weeks prior to the attacks on 9/11 and plenty of time to have allowed the FBI criminal investigators to find these known al Qaeda terrorists before they took part in any attack inside of the US. At this point in fact both the CIA and FBI HQ knew these terrorists were inside of the US in order to carry out just such a huge al Qaeda terrorist attack.

On August 22, 2001 a meeting was held in Wilshire’s FBI office, where Wilshire had Gillespie take the information that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US back to the CIA bin Laden unit, and had FBI Agent Dina Corsi write up an EC to start a intelligence investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi. This information went right to Richard Blee, and then to Cofer Black who as very close to Blee, and then to Tenet who was close to Black. All three of these CIA managers had just been at the White House on July 10, 2001, telling Rice, Hadley and Clarke that a huge al Qaeda attack was about to take place, aimed right at the US that would kill many Americans.

So three weeks prior to the attacks on 9/11 both the CIA and FBI HQs knew that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US, knew that these terrorists were going to take part in a massive terrorist attack that would kill thousands of Americans, but kept this information completely secret from the FBI criminal investigators in the New York office on the Cole bombing, even when both agencies even knew that Mihdhar and Hazmi had actually taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing, in fact both agencies even had even had photographic proof of this."

Again over three weeks prior to the attacks on 9/11, both the CIA, and their top leaders and FBI HQ's knew that al Qaeda terrorists Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi were inside of the US in order to take part in a massive al Qaeda terrorist attack that would kill thousands of Americans.

How do we know this? Because in the DOJ IG report, Tom Wilshire, former Deputy Chief of the CIA bin Laden unit and at the time of this email Deputy Chief of the FBI ITOS unit, sends an email back to the CIA on July 5 2001, that stated that the people at the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting in January 2000, Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi, were connected to the warnings of a huge al Qaeda terrorist attack, an attack that was likely to take place inside of the US. According to George Tenet's own book, in late July 2001, when he asked at a meeting at the CIA, where will this huge attack take place, Richard Blee, stated that "They are coming here".

Then on July 23, 2001, Wilshire sends another email back to his CTC managers at the CIA, Richard Blee, and Cofer Black, who would have given this email to Tenet, first asking what had happened to his July 13, 2001 request to send the Kuala Lumpur information over to the FBI, the FBI Cole bombing investigators, and second that when the next big al Qaeda terrorist attack takes place, Khalid al-Mihdhar will be found at the location of this attack and should be of high interest, anyway given his connection to [the Cole bombing]. Wilshire was never given permission to give this information to the FBI, information that could have prevented the attacks on 9/11.

It was clear that the information Wilshire wanted to send to the FBI Cole bombing investigators was the fact that the CIA had found out on January 4, 2001, that Walid bin Attash, mastermind of the Cole bombing, was at the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting, with Mihdhar and Hazmi, information that proved to the CIA that these two al Qaeda terrorists had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing.

From the time the CIA positively found out that both Mihdhar and Hazmi had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing, they went to extraordinary and great lengths to make sure this information never reached the FBI. First the CIA had secretly made this positive identification of bin Attash, from his photograph taken at the Kuala Lumpur meeting, with the joint FBI/CIA source, only when the CIA Alat had given the FBI agent who was also at the debriefing of the joint source, documents to photo copy and was out of the room where the debriefing was taking place.

Then this information was kept secret from the FBI agent who was at the debriefing, and Tenet ordered all cables sent to the FBI and the White House, that originated from the Pakistan CIA station, and all other CIA stations that had this information, to be scrubbed of any and all information, that there had been an al Qaeda planning meeting in Kuala Lumpur and that Khalid al-Mihdhar and Walid bin Attash had been at that meeting.

The fact that this information was kept secret from the FBI Cole bombing investigators has never been explained by the CIA, or any investigation even though numerous investigation had taken place, which should have uncovered the reasons the CIA hid this information from the FBI until after the attacks on 9/11 had taken place, the Pentbomb investigation, the Joint Inquiry Committee investigation, the 9/11 Commission investigation, the DOJ IG investigation and report on 9/11 and the CIA IG investigation and report on 9/11.

How hard would it have been to ask Tenet at the Joint Inquiry public hearings or the 9/11 Public hearings and then get a reasonable answer; Why did you hide the fact that Mihdhar and Hazmi had been at the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting planning the Cole bombing and why did you not immediately tell if the FBI criminal investigators that both Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US in order to take part in a horrific terrorist attack that would kill thousands of Americans?

The fact that this was the number one question coming out of the attacks on 9/11, and still has never been answered, why the CIA and FBI HQ's had deliberately allowed the al Qaeda terrorists to murder almost 3000 people on 9/11, is iron clad proof that all of these investigations were criminally sabotaged and that the orders to the CIA and FBI HQ's to allow this huge terrorist attack could only have come from the highest officials in the US government.
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
You keep overbidding your hand.

If you really believe that, you can use facts from credible sources to rebut the facts I have posted from the DOJ IG report and the Defense Exhibits that were entered into the Moussaoui trial, back up what is clearly just at this point your rather uninformed opinion.

And further more you can answer the questions I posed above and explain the following:

"The fact that this information was kept secret from the FBI Cole bombing investigators has never been explained by the CIA, or any investigation even though numerous investigation had taken place, which should have uncovered the reasons the CIA hid this information from the FBI until after the attacks on 9/11 had taken place, the Pentbomb investigation, the Joint Inquiry Committee investigation, the 9/11 Commission investigation, the DOJ IG investigation and report on 9/11 and the CIA IG investigation and report on 9/11.

How hard would it have been to ask Tenet at the Joint Inquiry public hearings or the 9/11 Public hearings and then get a reasonable answer; Why did you hide the fact that Mihdhar and Hazmi had been at the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting planning the Cole bombing and why did you not immediately tell if the FBI criminal investigators that both Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US in order to take part in a horrific terrorist attack that would kill thousands of Americans? "

Can you answer the question above: Why did Tenet hide the fact that Mihdhar and Hazmi had been at the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting planning the Cole bombing and why did he not immediately tell if the FBI criminal investigators that both Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US in order to take part in a horrific terrorist attack that would kill thousands of Americans?"

Tenet claimed at the 9/11 Commission hearings on April 14, 2004 that after he found out that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US and then found out the next day that Moussaoui had been arrested by Minneapolis FBI, and wanted help from the CIA in order to get enough information to get a FISA warrant for his duffel bag and lap top, that he not only did nothing to help these FBI agents but that he gave no one else this information, even when he also knew a huge al Qaeda terrorist attack was just about to take place inside of the US, an attack that was further confirmed by this new information.

Explain this if you can. In my opinion, I doubt you can!

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Old 30th January 2017, 03:31 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
...
Explain this if you can. In my opinion, I doubt you can!
I can. You are posting off topic BS in a thread, and you have no idea the thread is about the failed fantasy of the OP author. Bush is after the OP author, and you are upset your fake conclusions are nonsense.
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Old 30th January 2017, 05:11 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by paloalto View Post
If you really believe that, you can use facts from credible sources to rebut the facts I have posted from the DOJ IG report and the Defense Exhibits that were entered into the Moussaoui trial, back up what is clearly just at this point your rather uninformed opinion. ...
I have no problem with the facts you used.
I do have a problem with the exaggerations that you put on top.
Like the repeated claim that specific agents and agencies had specific prior information of the size and future death toll of what AQ planned.
That was overbidding your hand.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 03:34 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
specific agents and agencies had specific prior information of the size and future death toll of what AQ planned.
Plausible if we're talking about agents within the Saudi government (along with other governments in the region i.e. Yemen, Qatar, Kuwait, the United Arab Emirates, etc., as well as the Taliban and Pakistani ISI, of course).

However, I am pretty sure that none of these agencies would have been aware of the full details of the 9/11 plot. Not even close. Most of al-Qaeda were unaware, for that matter (including - before they arrived in the US and met with the pilots - most of the "muscle" hijackers). And reportedly, several senior al-Qaeda leaders were opposed to the attacks out of (very well-founded) fear that they would face the full wrath of the US and its allies if the plot was carried out, but they were obviously overruled by bin Laden.

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Old 6th February 2017, 08:40 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I have no problem with the facts you used.

I do have a problem with the exaggerations that you put on top.

Like the repeated claim that specific agents and agencies had specific prior information of the size and future death toll of what AQ planned.

That was overbidding your hand.
I would suggest that you are over embracing your denial of the TRUTH.

The point as I see it, is not whether the CIA knew many would die but that they knew innocent people were being 'setup to die' and nothing was going to be done to prevent this from happening.

How many 'projected deaths' do you feel were necessary to warrant a CIA -> FBI disclosure?
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Old 6th February 2017, 09:10 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Criteria View Post
I would suggest that you are over embracing your denial of the TRUTH.

The point as I see it, is not whether the CIA knew many would die but that they knew innocent people were being 'setup to die' and nothing was going to be done to prevent this from happening.

How many 'projected deaths' do you feel were necessary to warrant a CIA -> FBI disclosure?
There is not suggest in the case of 9/11 truth, it is a fact 9/11 truth and you have a paranoid nonsensical version of 9/11 and you offer no evidence to support the fantasy version. In your fantasy world, Where do you guys get your silent explosives; and how do you make up the silly plot like this one? Did the FBI/CIA coverup your silent explosives sources - your imaginations and fantasy centers of the mind.

Does 9/11 truth have remote viewing skills, or is it mind reading? Fantasy skills for the fantasy dumbed down version of 9/11? Ironically this line of BS conclusions based on FBI/CIA stuff, debunks your CD and other 9/11 truth idiotic claims... This a thread which debunks most of 9/11 truth BS. Why are you posting in BS which debunks CD and other 9/11 truth claims?
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Old 6th February 2017, 09:26 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Criteria View Post
I would suggest that you are over embracing your denial of the TRUTH.

The point as I see it, is not whether the CIA knew many would die but that they knew innocent people were being 'setup to die' and nothing was going to be done to prevent this from happening.

How many 'projected deaths' do you feel were necessary to warrant a CIA -> FBI disclosure?
Paloalto had made a specific claim that they knew it would be thousands, apparently, I believe, based on an interpretation of "mass casualties". There is no direct evidence of such a numerical estimate having been made.

Paloalto has also stated his disapproval of the distraction of claims of CD. Have you relinquished that claim?
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Old 7th February 2017, 07:43 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Paloalto had made a specific claim that they knew it would be thousands, apparently, I believe, based on an interpretation of "mass casualties". There is no direct evidence of such a numerical estimate having been made.

Paloalto has also stated his disapproval of the distraction of claims of CD. Have you relinquished that claim?
The fact that the CIA thought there would be "mass casualties" is just the tip of an immense ice berg of evidence that the CIA knew this attack would be huge and kill many Americans. After looking over all of this evidence, I concluded that they knew that thousands of Americans would likely be murdered in the immense al Qaeda terrorist attack that the CIA knew was just about to take place inside of the US. Here is just some of that evidence.

On June 12, 2001, according to the 9/11 Commission report, the CIA was given information that the huge al Qaeda terrorist attack that the CIA was aware of was being directed by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. The CIA already had Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's Bojinka plot, the second half of which called for al Qaeda terrorists to hijack 10 aircraft inside of the US, 5 on the east coast and 5 on the east coast. The 5 planes on the east coast were to be flown into the two WTC towers, the Pentagon, the US Capital building and CIA HQ's in Arlington, Virginia. The plan to hijack the 5 planes on the West coast we scrapped because the al Qaeda terrorists considered it was too hard to synchronize these two attacks. The CIA was told that KSM was recruiting al Qaeda terrorists in the summer of 2001, to be sent into the US, to link up with al Qaeda terrorists who were already here to take part in this huge attack. The CIA even knew that these other terrorists who were already inside of the US were Nawaf al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Mihdhar when Mihdhar came back into the US.

The CIA also had photographed KSM at the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting in January 2000, staying right with Mihdhar and Hazmi at the condominium where this meeting was taking place. The WTC towers have 15,000 people working in each tower during the day and have an additional 25,000 people who visit these tower during the day. In addition Ramzi Yousef who had masterminded to original attack on the WTC towers was KSM's nephew, and in fact KSM had helped finance Yousef's 1993 attack on these towers, additional information that indicated that it was highly likely that these towers were going to be a target of this huge al Qaeda terrorist attack. When the CIA was aware that these towers were likely going to be a target they could assume that thousands of people would be killed in any attack on these towers.

The fact that the al Qaeda terrorists went after the USS Cole after they missed in their attack on the USS the Sullivan’s, indicated that these terrorists would likely repeat attempting to destroy a target if they missed the first time. This would make it highly likely that they would go back after the WTC towers after they failed to destroy these towers in 1993.

According to Wikipedia:

The 9/11 Commission Report states that "the 9/11 attacks were a shock, but they should not have come as a surprise. Islamic extremists had given plenty of warnings that they meant to kill Americans indiscriminately and in large numbers."[28] The report continued:

During the spring and summer of 2001, U.S. intelligence agencies received a stream of warnings about an attack al-Qaeda planned, as one report puts it "something very, very, very big." Director of Central Intelligence George Tenet told us "the system was blinking red."[29]

The US administration, CIA and FBI received multiple prior warnings from foreign governments and intelligence services, including France, Germany, the UK, Israel, Jordan, Afghanistan, Egypt, Morocco and Russia.[5][30] The warnings varied in their level of detail, but all stated that they believed an al-Qaeda attack inside the United States was imminent.

British Member of Parliament Michael Meacher cites these warnings, suggesting that some of them must have been deliberately ignored.[31]

Some of these warnings include the following:
• March 2001 – Italian intelligence warns of an al-Qaeda plot in the United States involving a massive strike involving aircraft, based on their wiretap of al-Qaeda cell in Milan.
• July 2001 – Jordanian intelligence told US officials that al-Qaeda was planning an attack on American soil, and Egyptian intelligence warned the CIA that 20 al-Qaeda Jihadists were in the United States, and that four of them were receiving flight training.
• August 2001 – The Israeli Mossad gives the CIA a list of 19 terrorists living in the US and say that they appear to be planning to carry out an attack in the near future.
• August 2001 – The United Kingdom is warned three times of an imminent al-Qaeda attack in the United States, the third specifying multiple airplane hijackings. According to the Sunday Herald, the report is passed on to President Bush a short time later.
• September 2001 – Egyptian intelligence warns American officials that al-Qaeda is in the advanced stages of executing a significant operation against an American target, probably within the US.

The fact that the CIA Director found out on August 23, 2001 that Minneapolis FBI had arrested Zacharias Moussaoui, when they thought he was a terrorist trying to get training on a B747 without so much as having a private pilot's license, and told the FBI agents that had arrested him that he was in a big hurry to finish his training would have been even additional corroboration that the terrorists were focused on hijacked aircraft in the upcoming terrorist attack.

Again this is just a very small part of the massive amount of information that the CIA had that pointed at the WTC Towers as a likely target of this immense al Qaeda terrorist attack. In fact since much of the information that came out of the investigations after 9/11 is still classified we still do not know the full extent of the information that they had. But we clearly know that they had more than enough information that the WTC Towers were clearly a likely target and knew that any attack on these towers would likely kill thousands of people.

But this still leaves the questions that people on this forum have not been able to answer, questions that I had asked before:

Explain the following:

"The fact that this information* was kept secret from the FBI Cole bombing investigators has never been explained by the CIA, or any investigation even though numerous investigation had taken place, which should have uncovered the reasons the CIA hid this information from the FBI until after the attacks on 9/11 had taken place, the Pentbomb investigation, the Joint Inquiry Committee investigation, the 9/11 Commission investigation, the DOJ IG investigation and report on 9/11 and the CIA IG investigation and report on 9/11.

* [Note; this information was the following: "From the time the CIA positively found out that both Mihdhar and Hazmi had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing, they went to extraordinary and great lengths to make sure this information never reached the FBI. First the CIA had secretly made this positive identification of bin Attash, from his photograph taken at the Kuala Lumpur meeting, with the joint FBI/CIA source, only when the CIA Alat had given the FBI agent who was also at the debriefing of the joint source, documents to photo copy and was out of the room where the debriefing was taking place.

Then this information was kept secret from the FBI agent who was at the debriefing, and Tenet ordered all cables sent to the FBI and the White House, that originated from the Pakistan CIA station, and all other CIA stations that had this information, to be scrubbed of any and all information, that there had been an al Qaeda planning meeting in Kuala Lumpur and that Khalid al-Mihdhar and Walid bin Attash had been at that meeting.

The fact that this information was kept secret from the FBI Cole bombing investigators has never been explained by the CIA, or any investigation even though numerous investigation had taken place, which should have uncovered the reasons the CIA hid this information from the FBI until after the attacks on 9/11 had taken place, the Pentbomb investigation, the Joint Inquiry Committee investigation, the 9/11 Commission investigation, the DOJ IG investigation and report on 9/11 and the CIA IG investigation and report on 9/11.

How hard would it have been to ask Tenet at the Joint Inquiry public hearings or the 9/11 Public hearings and then get a reasonable answer; Why did you hide the fact that Mihdhar and Hazmi had been at the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting planning the Cole bombing and why did you not immediately tell if the FBI criminal investigators that both Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US in order to take part in a horrific terrorist attack that would kill thousands of Americans? ]

Hiding this information allowed the attacks on 9/11 to take place, attacks that murdered almost 3000 people on 9/11.

Can you answer the question above: Why did Tenet hide the fact that Mihdhar and Hazmi had been at the Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting planning the Cole bombing and why did he not immediately tell if the FBI criminal investigators that both Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US in order to take part in a horrific terrorist attack that would kill thousands of Americans?"

Tenet claimed at the 9/11 Commission hearings on April 14, 2004 that after he found out that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US and then found out the next day that Moussaoui had been arrested by Minneapolis FBI, and these FBI agents wanted help from the CIA in order to get enough information to get a FISA warrant for his duffel bag and lap top, that he not only did nothing to help these FBI agents but that he gave no one else this information, even when he also knew a huge al Qaeda terrorist attack was just about to take place inside of the US, an attack that was further confirmed by this new information.

Explain this if you can. In my opinion, I doubt you can! At this, point people on this forum have only danced around this question and have never answered this question, in any way. Again answer this very simple question. Again I doubt if you can.

Last edited by paloalto; 7th February 2017 at 07:50 PM.
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