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Old 21st January 2017, 08:31 PM   #161
Graham2001
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Unlikely.
Why should the USA or Israel set fire and CD charges to a building that mostl houses t-shirt shops? Such a claim would expose Iran to the ridicule that they can't keep the enemy from sabotaging buildings in her capital.

Also, you greatly overestimate the extent to which things inside Iran are governed and influenced by the foreign conflicts with arch enemies. You underestimate the openness of the Iranian society. Sure, there's censorship, but it's nowhere near total, and you find pluralism everywhere. The simple fact that so many amateur photos and videos were posted on the internet demonstrated the relative openness of Iran. You get the same from the UAE, for example, but not from Saudi Arabia or North Korea.
You still have to be careful what you upload as this case from 2014 shows:

Quote:
If you're "Happy" and in Iran and then post your happiness on YouTube, chances are you'll be arrested. There's been anger after 6 teenagers have been detained by the police for making a music video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taGf9T7I1h4
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Old 21st January 2017, 08:32 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
One interesting observation of the Plasco collapse: When the interior begins to fail catastrophically, dust comes out of the windows. Nothing like that is seen with the East Penthouse collapse of WTC 7; building dust can only be seen emerging when the whole exterior starts moving down. More reason to get the impression that the East Penthouse might've fell way up high, far away from the fire.
You realize that the Plasco dust expulsions occurred where the floors failed? Tell us MJ, where were the first floor failures in WTC7 according to NIST,WAI,ARUP, etc.?

When col79 buckled around the 12th floor it drew down all the floors attached. Can you envision this, MJ?
Yes this caused floor failures all the way up but in what order, MJ? Would the EPH be impacting a floor, or would it be collapsing into a void that reaches all the ####### way down to the ground.

Come on MJ, think first, post second, not the other way around.
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Old 21st January 2017, 08:36 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Unlikely.
Why should the USA or Israel set fire and CD charges to a building that mostl houses t-shirt shops? Such a claim would expose Iran to the ridicule that they can't keep the enemy from sabotaging buildings in her capital.
Yeah, probably. My post was simply pointing out that this is a regime where government agendas do have a way of interfering with truth.
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Old 21st January 2017, 09:51 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
My latest video shows you why, when the fire is hottest there are no flames.
Super heating stump pile: http://youtu.be/Zzx1ZVtpg5E


When the carbon cools flames appear because soot is radiating black body radiation.
Eventually the stump being a heat sink and green puts out the flame from the steam cooling it.

The soot given off by a fire is simply a cooling fuel, if it encountered a zone where it could be reignited it can produce 1400C temperatures.
Oh, Like charcoal? I might add I really like your other videos!
I see now why your name is Crazy Chainsaw
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Old 21st January 2017, 11:39 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
You realize that the Plasco dust expulsions occurred where the floors failed? Tell us MJ, where were the first floor failures in WTC7 according to NIST,WAI,ARUP, etc.?

When col79 buckled around the 12th floor it drew down all the floors attached. Can you envision this, MJ?
Yes this caused floor failures all the way up but in what order, MJ? Would the EPH be impacting a floor, or would it be collapsing into a void that reaches all the ####### way down to the ground.

Come on MJ, think first, post second, not the other way around.
I don't see your point. Why shouldn't I expect a dust from that area of the building when it happened with Plasco?
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Old 21st January 2017, 11:53 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I don't see your point. Why shouldn't I expect a dust from that area of the building when it happened with Plasco?
I think what JDH is trying to say is that Plasco was a pancake collapse, like WTC 1 and 2, but WTC7 was not. In WTC7, all floors moved at the same time when C79 failed. They didn't impact on each other.
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Old 22nd January 2017, 12:50 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
I think what JDH is trying to say is that Plasco was a pancake collapse, like WTC 1 and 2, but WTC7 was not. In WTC7, all floors moved at the same time when C79 failed. They didn't impact on each other.
I don't know what "pancaking" means in relation to the collapse I see on the videos. Maybe if floors were collapsing on one side of the building and then the next. It wasn't uniform or anything.

The NIST animations show some pretty heavy action on the east side of WTC 7, idk I'd just expect building dust to come out of the windows from all of that stuff going on.
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Old 22nd January 2017, 01:03 AM   #168
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It's all about the money.

Quote:
Issuing this press release across the U.S., the U.K., and the Middle East — including in Iran — is costing AE911Truth $1,850. We encourage you to chip in toward covering this unanticipated expense, if you are so inclined. Thank you as always for your support.
http://www.ae911truth.org/news/336-n...-collapse.html
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Old 22nd January 2017, 01:09 AM   #169
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Micah,

a "pancaking collapse" is when one floor slab falls on the floor slab below it.
This reduces the volume between the two floor slabs from 100% to almost 0% in a very short time.
The volume is filled with air.
The pancaking pushes the air out of that floor.

For example:
Let's say a floor compartment is 20x20 feet wide, floors are 10 feet high. The compartment has 4 windows, each 4x4 feet.

This gives you an air volume of 4000 cubic feet, which get pushed out of a total window area of 64 square feet.

Let's say the collapse takes one second. Then we can calculate the average speed at which air leaves the windows - just divide volume by window area and collapse time:

vair = 4000 ft3/64 ft2 / 1 s = 62.5 ft/s (19 m/s, 68.6 km/h, 42.9 mph).

In the WTC, floors had a much larger area, the volume/window area was larger than this. I am too lazy to look up numbers for WTC7, but essentially you should now understand why air is expected to be pushed out the windows at high velocities.


At the WTC7, when the east core collapsed entirely (c79 buckling, EPH descending), all the intact floors from floor 14 up to the roof descended in unison. For example: The slab of the 40th floor did not fall onto the slab of the 39th floor, because the 39th floor was falling in uniso.
Consequently, the distance between falling floors remained the same, no (or little) air was displaced by this. Hence, no large volume of air needs to be expelled anywhere between floor 14 and the roof.

It's much different at the bottom of the building: All the falling floor, as they end up on the ground/debris pile, are reduced to zero volume by and by. You can expect lots of air to be pushed out near the ground - but that was not captured by any of the cams that were locks away.

You can of course see lots of dust billowing near street level e.g. in the Ashleigh Banfield video.
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Old 22nd January 2017, 01:47 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Micah,

a "pancaking collapse" is when one floor slab falls on the floor slab below it.
This reduces the volume between the two floor slabs from 100% to almost 0% in a very short time.
The volume is filled with air.
The pancaking pushes the air out of that floor.

For example:
Let's say a floor compartment is 20x20 feet wide, floors are 10 feet high. The compartment has 4 windows, each 4x4 feet.

This gives you an air volume of 4000 cubic feet, which get pushed out of a total window area of 64 square feet.

Let's say the collapse takes one second. Then we can calculate the average speed at which air leaves the windows - just divide volume by window area and collapse time:

vair = 4000 ft3/64 ft2 / 1 s = 62.5 ft/s (19 m/s, 68.6 km/h, 42.9 mph).

In the WTC, floors had a much larger area, the volume/window area was larger than this. I am too lazy to look up numbers for WTC7, but essentially you should now understand why air is expected to be pushed out the windows at high velocities.


At the WTC7, when the east core collapsed entirely (c79 buckling, EPH descending), all the intact floors from floor 14 up to the roof descended in unison. For example: The slab of the 40th floor did not fall onto the slab of the 39th floor, because the 39th floor was falling in uniso.
Consequently, the distance between falling floors remained the same, no (or little) air was displaced by this. Hence, no large volume of air needs to be expelled anywhere between floor 14 and the roof.

It's much different at the bottom of the building: All the falling floor, as they end up on the ground/debris pile, are reduced to zero volume by and by. You can expect lots of air to be pushed out near the ground - but that was not captured by any of the cams that were locks away.

You can of course see lots of dust billowing near street level e.g. in the Ashleigh Banfield video.
Ah, I see. Still, I see Plasco and how air pressure made the squibs there so I can't help but think air pressure could play a similar role in this hypothetical. My vision of what a natural WTC 7 collapse should look like is the Plasco collapse. I mean, there's no visual indication that anything catastrophic is happening with the East Penthouse when you see videos of WTC 7. I mean, you guys groan at AE911TRUTH clips of people saying they would've expected a slower, droning collapse of the WTC, but exactly that just happened a couple of days ago.

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Old 22nd January 2017, 02:02 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Ah, I see. Still, I see Plasco and how air pressure made the squibs there so I can't help but think air pressure could play a similar role in this hypothetical. My vision of what a natural WTC 7 collapse should look like is the Plasco collapse. I mean, there's no visual indication that anything catastrophic is happening with the East Penthouse when you see videos of WTC 7. I mean, you guys groan at AE911TRUTH clips of people saying they would've expected a slower, droning collapse with deformations and chaos, but exactly that just happened a couple of days ago.
It may be helpful to see section 5.3 of the WAI report starting on pg B-119. Unlike the Plasco building where the fires caused the initial floor collapses near the top of the building, in WTC it is predicted that the initial floors that collapsed were near the bottom. Almost immediately after those floors collapsed, the columns to their west (which were right below the penthouse) would have buckled due to a loss of lateral support, and the upper floors would then come down all at once with the columns, meaning the air between the upper floors wouldn't necessarily be blown out until those floors all ran into resistance near the ground level.

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Old 22nd January 2017, 06:56 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
... My vision of what a natural WTC 7 collapse should look like is the Plasco collapse. ...
Vision? Isn't "imagination" a more appropriate word?
There are many ways in which buildings can collapse - always depends on specifics of the structure, the materials used, and where the initiating event (the proverbial "straw that broke the camel's back") occurred. I would expect for clones of WTC7 to collapse in different ways, depending on whether initial failure occurred low or high, in the core or perimeter.

Suppose the WTC7 fires had burned on identical floors, only in the upper 10 floors, and initial failure would have been a floor collapse on, say, the 46th floor: In that case, the columns would not have had much of a load above them. Pancaking floor collapse would likely have run down 46 stories all the way to the ground, ahead of column failure and roof caving in. You would definitely have seen air and dust expelled through windows from top to bottom.
However, WTC7 failed first very low, out of sight.

Are you able to visualize that different failure locations can lead to different collapse scenarios? (It feels weird to even be asking such a question)
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Old 22nd January 2017, 07:08 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
The NIST animations show some pretty heavy action on the east side of WTC 7, idk I'd just expect building dust to come out of the windows from all of that stuff going on.
Expecting to see dust come out of which windows, when and why?

And what do your expectations of what reality should be have to do with what reality was?
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Old 22nd January 2017, 09:04 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Ah, I see. Still, I see Plasco and how air pressure made the squibs there so I can't help but think air pressure could play a similar role in this hypothetical. My vision of what a natural WTC 7 collapse should look like is the Plasco collapse. I mean, there's no visual indication that anything catastrophic is happening with the East Penthouse when you see videos of WTC 7. I mean, you guys groan at AE911TRUTH clips of people saying they would've expected a slower, droning collapse of the WTC, but exactly that just happened a couple of days ago.
You are misusing the term "squib":
Originally Posted by merriam-webster
Definition of squib
1a : a short humorous or satiric writing or speech
b : a short news item; especially : filler
2a : a small firecracker
b : a broken firecracker in which the powder burns with a fizz
3 : a small electric or pyrotechnic device used to ignite a charge
ETA: The exterior construction and collapse mechanisms between the two buildings may differ. Your vision means nothing to them.
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Old 22nd January 2017, 11:22 AM   #175
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Well we at least know that dust came out of the building as the perimeter started coming down, high in the building where the official story has that whole area cleanly gutted.

Also, why would the east-to-west progressive collapse not create dust clouds? It's not just the East Penthouse and the area underneath under question.
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Old 22nd January 2017, 11:30 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Well we at least know that dust came out of the building as the perimeter started coming down, high in the building where the official story has that whole area cleanly gutted.

Also, why would the east-to-west progressive collapse not create dust clouds? It's not just the East Penthouse and the area underneath under question.
Please cite this "official story" that has "that whole area cleanly gutted".

Also, what was being emitted at the bottom of WTC7, where it appears from studies that much of the collapse initiation occured, and where much of the interior was headed at initiation?

If you don't understand all these things though, remember your brain is not built to simulate a skyskraper collapse, so what you conceive and perceive are limited in their utility. The best you can do is a computerized simulation. Are you prepared to tackle that project, or would you rather just say things and hope somehow to convince others by your deft choice of descriptive terms, regardless of accuracy?
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Old 22nd January 2017, 11:38 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Well we at least know that dust came out of the building as the perimeter started coming down, high in the building where the official story has that whole area cleanly gutted.
Seriously?
You first tell us that no dust being expelled is suspicious, and now you tell us that dust being expelled is suspicious??

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Also, why would the east-to-west progressive collapse not create dust clouds? It's not just the East Penthouse and the area underneath under question.
Seriously??
I just exlained to you that the east core didn't undergo pancaking collapse, that the upper 30+ floors came down in unison.
How did the west core come down?
Well, the west core didn't undergo pancaking collapse, the upper 30+ floors came down in unison.

It is amazing that you proved utterly unable to perform such an easy step of mental transformation.

I see more clearly now why you are a truther: Apparently, you cannot or do not think. You don't employ stuff you learned in the past hour to solve an easy problem that has just been solved right before your eyes.
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Old 22nd January 2017, 12:11 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Seriously?
You first tell us that no dust being expelled is suspicious, and now you tell us that dust being expelled is suspicious??


Seriously??
I just exlained to you that the east core didn't undergo pancaking collapse, that the upper 30+ floors came down in unison.
How did the west core come down?
Well, the west core didn't undergo pancaking collapse, the upper 30+ floors came down in unison.

It is amazing that you proved utterly unable to perform such an easy step of mental transformation.

I see more clearly now why you are a truther: Apparently, you cannot or do not think. You don't employ stuff you learned in the past hour to solve an easy problem that has just been solved right before your eyes.
Doesn't mass falling over in air, pull a vacuum behind it?
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Old 22nd January 2017, 12:37 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I don't know what "pancaking" means in relation to the collapse I see on the videos. Maybe if floors were collapsing on one side of the building and then the next. It wasn't uniform or anything.
yes

Quote:
The NIST animations show some pretty heavy action on the east side of WTC 7, idk I'd just expect building dust to come out of the windows from all of that stuff going on.
Why?
The EPH falling in would have it's debris largely falling into a hole that extends down to the ground. What mechanism would then have expulsions of air and dust occur anywhere other than at the bottom?

In the case of a floor collapse onto a lower floor you are trapping air between the collapsing debris and the lower (intact) floor, forcing the air to move sideways.
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Old 22nd January 2017, 12:38 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Also, why would the east-to-west progressive collapse not create dust clouds?
How would that work exactly?
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Old 22nd January 2017, 12:42 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Doesn't mass falling over in air, pull a vacuum behind it?
Sort of. The friction of the object means that air is being pulled along. In addition you have displacement, the volume of air that the object is displacing must go somewhere, it flows around the object creating turbulence.
You can experience this simply by standing next to a highway as semi-trailers pas by at high speed.
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Old 22nd January 2017, 12:43 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Doesn't mass falling over in air, pull a vacuum behind it?
Given sufficient speed, sure. Otherwise it is simply wake turbulence.
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Old 22nd January 2017, 12:54 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Given sufficient speed, sure. Otherwise it is simply wake turbulence.
Then the dust clouds seen though the windows, as the EPH collapses, would be the effect of induced drag pulling
The air downward.
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Old 22nd January 2017, 01:00 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Seriously?
You first tell us that no dust being expelled is suspicious, and now you tell us that dust being expelled is suspicious??


Seriously??
I just exlained to you that the east core didn't undergo pancaking collapse, that the upper 30+ floors came down in unison.
How did the west core come down?
Well, the west core didn't undergo pancaking collapse, the upper 30+ floors came down in unison.

It is amazing that you proved utterly unable to perform such an easy step of mental transformation.

I see more clearly now why you are a truther: Apparently, you cannot or do not think. You don't employ stuff you learned in the past hour to solve an easy problem that has just been solved right before your eyes.
Dust can be seen coming out of the same area of the building when the perimeter comes down, even though there's supposed to be nothing there.

There is no dust coming out of the building as the alleged east-to-west progressive collapse is supposed to be happening, even if we assume the East Penthouse/Column 79 under-area could have fell without emitting dust.
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Old 22nd January 2017, 01:10 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Dust can be seen coming out of the same area of the building when the perimeter comes down, even though there's supposed to be nothing there.

There is no dust coming out of the building as the alleged east-to-west progressive collapse is supposed to be happening, even if we assume the East Penthouse/Column 79 under-area could have fell without emitting dust.
It is gutted Hulled out but that does not mean it is hulled perfectly inside.
There could still be some retained structure inside, that could be responsible for the dust.
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Old 22nd January 2017, 01:20 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Dust can be seen coming out of the same area of the building when the perimeter comes down, even though there's supposed to be nothing there.

There is no dust coming out of the building as the alleged east-to-west progressive collapse is supposed to be happening, even if we assume the East Penthouse/Column 79 under-area could have fell without emitting dust.
As far as I know, the only documented attempt to fulsomely model the entire internal collapse from east to west was carried out by NIST. You can see the outcome of their model in NIST NCSTAR 1-9A at page 108. While their collapse sequence does not perfectly capture what happened in the building (as can be seen by how the moment frame in their simulation suffered more damage than in real life during the internal collapse), the general collapse propagation mechanism they predicted is consistent with WAI's horizontal collapse propagation initiation mechanism: as the initial floors fell, the internal columns lost lateral support and buckled, bringing down the sections of floor to their west, which in turn caused the next set of columns to the west to fail. This process repeated itself rapidly from one set of floor sections to the next set of columns. As you can see from the NIST model, however, the main column buckling action in each iteration would remain relatively low in the building (though it does appear to move up a few floors each iteration, it never surpasses floor 25 or so). This is consistent with the visual record re dust expulsions as it means there were scenarios in which the floor failures above the 25th floor were all happening relatively simultaneously. I will also add, however, that, in any case, there may well have been dust expulsions from the collapses of higher floors on the south side of the building that we could not see.

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Old 22nd January 2017, 03:20 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Dust can be seen coming out of the same area of the building when the perimeter comes down, even though there's supposed to be nothing there.

There is no dust coming out of the building as the alleged east-to-west progressive collapse is supposed to be happening, even if we assume the East Penthouse/Column 79 under-area could have fell without emitting dust.
Huh?
When and where is there "supposed to be nothing there"?
The perimeter comes down a split second after the west penthouse starts dropping. Do you fantasize in some hot fever dream that the "official story" claims the entire west core has disappeared during that split second??
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Old 22nd January 2017, 04:36 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
It is gutted Hulled out but that does not mean it is hulled perfectly inside.
There could still be some retained structure inside, that could be responsible for the dust.
I think he has me on ignore. What does MJ mean exactly by "nothing there"?
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Old 22nd January 2017, 04:59 PM   #189
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Wasn't this building 17 floors with 2 or 3 of a basement and actually 14-15 storeys high ?
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Old 22nd January 2017, 05:03 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
Wasn't this building 17 floors with 2 or 3 of a basement and actually 14-15 storeys high ?
It matters how?
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Old 22nd January 2017, 05:05 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
And?
I am just asking. It that ok ?
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Old 22nd January 2017, 05:06 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
I am just asking. It that ok ?
Sure. Would it matter if it was 2 stories?
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Old 22nd January 2017, 05:08 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Sure. Would it matter if it was 2 stories?
I was just looking for a straight answer, I'll try elsewhere I guess.
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Old 22nd January 2017, 05:10 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
I was just looking for a straight answer, I'll try elsewhere I guess.
A straight answer to what? Does it matter if the building is 17 or 14 floors?
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Old 22nd January 2017, 05:12 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
A straight answer to what? Does it matter if the building is 17 or 15 floors?
In a sense it does yes. Shyam Sunder made a statement that no high rise had ever fallen etc etc. He went on to mention that this classification was for buildings of over 15 storeys if my memory serves correctly.
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Old 22nd January 2017, 05:14 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
In a sense it does yes. Shyam Sunder made a statement that no high rise had ever fallen etc etc. He went on to mention that this classification was for buildings of over 15 storeys if my memory serves correctly.
In a sense you are trying to find a reason to dismiss this event.
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Old 22nd January 2017, 05:18 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
In a sense you are trying to find a reason to dismiss this event.
No, in a sense I am trying to see if the CTBUH has made an error in stating that there are 17 storeys above ground. It just isn't adding up with the various heights stated for the building.
Do you have any source for details on it that might help ?
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Old 22nd January 2017, 05:20 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
No, in a sense I am trying to see if the CTBUH has made an error in stating that there are 17 storeys above ground. It just isn't adding up with the various heights stated for the building.
Do you have any source for details on it that might help ?
How does it matter?

Did this steel framed building fail due to fire?
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Old 22nd January 2017, 05:21 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
How does it matter?

Did this steel framed building fail due to fire?
Let's work out if it is a "high rise" first, in line with NIST's stated definition please.
So no sources then ?
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Old 22nd January 2017, 05:22 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Old coarse guy View Post
Let's work out if it is a "high rise" first, in line with NIST's stated definition please.
So no sources then ?
Why?
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