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Old 28th January 2020, 10:06 AM   #521
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Assuming that the definition of "north" is not in dispute, that is an easily tested hypothesis.
Okay. I'll make up a special pleading new version of the concept of North and make you argue against it instead. Easy.

It's not our problem/fault that you can't consistently and meaningfully define the thing you are arguing/apologeticing (that needs to be a word) for.

"You can't say there's no God because I haven't gotten around to meaningfully defining him yet" is inane.

I await being told why just clearly explaining what you are doing is a "strawman" that you will never clarify.
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:07 AM   #522
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Not authority. Knowledge. Something you deny exists.
At least that's a new strawman.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Neither do you, and that means none of us knows anything therefore God is a credible answer. Right?
I don't need a PhD because I am not claiming to know all about the "beginning of time".

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
"Before" REQUIRES time. How can there be a "before" time?
You need to stop assuming that time is strictly linear.
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:09 AM   #523
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I don't need a PhD because I am not claiming to know all about the "beginning of time".
On what possible planet is "But maybe God" not a claim?

Is this a new version of JAQing off?
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:13 AM   #524
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So to sum it up.

If you're standing in a garage with no dragon and go "This garage has no dragon" that's an authoritative, declarative "claim" and a big no-no.

If you're standing in a garage with no dragon and go "Ya know... maybe there's a dragon in this garage" it isn't, as long as you don't give the dragon with any characteristics beyond special pleading needed to prove he isn't there.
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:13 AM   #525
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
At least that's a new strawman.
Telling me that I have no information or idea about something is not denying the existence of that knowledge?

You're so desperate to disagree with me that you're not even bothering to make sense anymore.

Quote:
I don't need a PhD because I am not claiming to know all about the "beginning of time".
Then again, maybe you need a PhD to understand basic logic.

Quote:
You need to stop assuming that time is strictly linear.
You can imagine any sort of nonsense, but it remains nonsense. Linear or not, planar or not, it changes nothing about what I said. You just don't seem to understand the logical implications. Hopefully you're not going to embarrass yourself further by claiming that logic may not apply.
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:17 AM   #526
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So to sum it up.

If you're standing in a garage with no dragon and go "This garage has no dragon" that's an authoritative, declarative "claim" and a big no-no.

If you're standing in a garage with no dragon and go "Ya know... maybe there's a dragon in this garage" it isn't, as long as you don't give the dragon with any characteristics beyond special pleading needed to prove he isn't there.
Depends on your definition of "is".
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:17 AM   #527
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You're so desperate to disagree with me that you're not even bothering to make sense anymore.
Again I'm getting the impression with dealing with someone who doesn't like they are being told they are wrong a lot more then they actually care about being right or wrong.

He's not defending/apologeticing God, he's defending/apologeticing the right to hold the opinion to say there is a God and is conflating the two into the same concept.
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:18 AM   #528
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
On what possible planet is "But maybe God" not a claim?
On the planet where "absolutely God" or "absolutely no God" is a claim.
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:18 AM   #529
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Depends on your definition of "is".
And there's why we're all immortal because of Bayesian statistics and I'm sure the neutral jury agrees with me.
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:22 AM   #530
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Telling me that I have no information or idea about something is not denying the existence of that knowledge?
What you personally know or don't know has nothing to do with the existence of that knowledge.

"You're so desperate to disagree with me that you're not even bothering to make sense".

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You can imagine any sort of nonsense, but it remains nonsense.
You mean nonsense like General Relativity or String theory?
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:25 AM   #531
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
What you personally know or don't know has nothing to do with the existence of that knowledge.
Er... it has everything to do with it. If I know about the Dragon in Joe's garage then it's knowledge.

Are you going to make a point with this?

Quote:
"You're so desperate to disagree with me that you're not even bothering to make sense".
Yes, that's exactly what I accused you of. Thanks for repeating it for the record.

Quote:
You mean nonsense like General Relativity or String theory?
Ah, there we are. I was wondering when that particular nut would crack, but it finally happened. Took you long enough to admit that you simply either don't understand the scientific fields we're discussing, or you think they're wrong, for reasons as of yet unknown.

So let's probe this: why do you think GR is nonsense? (we'll leave strings out of this since it's not a demonstrated theory at this point) Is it because it doesn't square with your personal understanding of the universe? Careful with your answers, because I'll bring up GPS satellites soon enough.
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:28 AM   #532
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
So let's probe this: why do you think GR is nonsense?
Oops! I forgot the scare quotes. I should have posted: You mean "nonsense" like General Relativity or String theory?
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:29 AM   #533
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You mean nonsense like General Relativity or String theory?
You'll have to explain to me how General Relativity and String Theory are like God.
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:31 AM   #534
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Ah, there we are. I was wondering when that particular nut would crack, but it finally happened. Took you long enough to admit that you simply either don't understand the scientific fields we're discussing, or you think they're wrong, for reasons as of yet unknown.

So let's probe this: why do you think GR is nonsense? (we'll leave strings out of this since it's not a demonstrated theory at this point) Is it because it doesn't square with your personal understanding of the universe? Careful with your answers, because I'll bring up GPS satellites soon enough.
He doesn't think GR is nonsense. He thinks we don't understand it so we have to accept it on "faith" so it's the same as God.

Old argumentative trick. He's going to equate a simple trust in the established fact that science knows that it's talking about with blind religious faith.

God can we please get some new apologetics it's so damn boring watching the same movie over and over.

God of the Gaps, "But you just have faith in science," "But how can you be sure," special pleading, it's all the same old crap.
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:31 AM   #535
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Oops! I forgot the scare quotes. I should have posted: You mean "nonsense" like General Relativity or String theory?
GR is not nonsense. It makes perfect sense, since it works. Strings, we're yet to find out.

Now, how about you answer my question?
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:32 AM   #536
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
He doesn't think GR is nonsense. He thinks we don't understand it so we have to accept it on "faith" so it's the same as God.
If that's the case he's got an even worse case of expressing himself than I do.

In any case, he'd be wrong there too. We DO understand GR, just not in the same way we understand eating food or playing hockey.
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:38 AM   #537
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
If that's the case he's got an even worse case of expressing himself than I do.
It's intentional. That way we have to explain his own point back to him so he can call it a strawman and never clarify it.
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:45 AM   #538
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
GR is not nonsense. It makes perfect sense, since it works. Strings, we're yet to find out.

Now, how about you answer my question?
Slight modification. GR is mathematically sound, tested, verified and actually used in the real world to do real things.

Strings are mathematically sound, but there it ends.. Personally, I like the elegance of it but that does not somehow become evidence.

The simple fact that psion put GR and strings in the same category is, perhaps, the more intriguing revelation.
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:45 AM   #539
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I'm waiting for "But quantum...."
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Old 28th January 2020, 10:48 AM   #540
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Slight modification. GR is mathematically sound, tested, verified and actually used in the real world to do real things.

Strings are mathematically sound, but there it ends.. Personally, I like the elegance of it but that does not somehow become evidence.
Yes, that's what I meant. See what I mean by poor expression skills?
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:12 AM   #541
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yes, that's what I meant. See what I mean by poor expression skills?
Nope. You express yourself perfectly clearly, by and large. It's just that sometimes others try to shoehorn whatever they like into whatever gap they can find.

Back to topic.

Psion asks how we can possibly know what happened "before" the BB. This question is so bereft of meaning that it puzzles me. "before" is necessarily temporal. There is no time "before" the BB for anything to happen in. That does not imply that there was "nothing" before the BB, if such a phrase has meaning. Maybe the singularity is eternal. No reason why it can't be.
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:35 AM   #542
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I don't take your reference seriously because I have seem many of these "this is the true interpretation of <insert religious text>".



In any case, it doesn't support your assertion that a god that can create a universe is a unique definition of a god that only I make.
I asked previously but you ignored the request, please provide the source of the translation you are using to make your claim about what the Torah says about creation? . You claimed your definition was compatible with the various gods that the Abrahamic religions describe, I have shown your claim is wrong.
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Old 28th January 2020, 11:38 AM   #543
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's intentional. That way we have to explain his own point back to him so he can call it a strawman and never clarify it.
Argumentum ad Ambiguity

Allows a disingenuous debater to claim . . .
“I didn’t say that”
“I did say that”
“I’ve already clearly explained”
“I’m not going to repeat myself”
“It’s not my fault you can’t read and comprehend”
“You’re trying to put words in my mouth”
“You’re strawmanning me”
. . .
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Old 28th January 2020, 12:30 PM   #544
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
On the planet where "absolutely God" or "absolutely no God" is a claim.
You do know that if we want to get jerked around we could go to the massage parlor.

This alluding to and not stating your beliefs is beyond tiresome.
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Old 28th January 2020, 12:57 PM   #545
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It’s silly to claim/assume a god did (or even may have done) anything without first establishing a god exists (or even may exist). All religions do this and that's why all religions are equally silly.
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Old 28th January 2020, 01:25 PM   #546
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"It's not special pleading when I say God is the answer to an unanswerable question because I define God as the answer to the unanswerable question."

It's circular special pleading. It's circular pleading.
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Old 28th January 2020, 02:26 PM   #547
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Welcome back to this thread. Please tell me what is wrong with the post of mine that dealt with this issue and I will either clarify it or concede that (according to the bible) God didn't create the universe after all.

Huh!

How can I possibly clarify it further than what I have written?
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Old 28th January 2020, 03:21 PM   #548
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Welcome back to this thread. Please tell me what is wrong with the post of mine that dealt with this issue and I will either clarify it or concede that (according to the bible) God didn't create the universe after all.
Here is a reference to all (most?) of the mentions of creation in the bible. Lots of mentions of "heaven" but no description of what that encompasses. One actual reference to "universe" - Hebrews 11:3. I wonder what people actually considered the universe to be when that was written. or even if the word or concept of "universe" existed.

https://www.biblehub.com/genesis/1-1.htm
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Old 28th January 2020, 03:23 PM   #549
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Here is a reference to all (most?) of the mentions of creation in the bible. Lots of mentions of "heaven" but no description of what that encompasses. One actual reference to "universe" - Hebrews 11:3. I wonder what people actually considered the universe to be when that was written. or even if the word or concept of "universe" existed.

https://www.biblehub.com/genesis/1-1.htm
Good luck. Mere logic, facts and evidence make no dent upon the faithful.
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Old 28th January 2020, 03:25 PM   #550
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Good luck. Mere logic, facts and evidence make no dent upon the faithful.
Just trying to help in my own small way.
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Old 28th January 2020, 03:36 PM   #551
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Here is a reference to all (most?) of the mentions of creation in the bible. Lots of mentions of "heaven" but no description of what that encompasses. One actual reference to "universe" - Hebrews 11:3. I wonder what people actually considered the universe to be when that was written. or even if the word or concept of "universe" existed.

https://www.biblehub.com/genesis/1-1.htm
I have a Christian friend that seriously entertains the possibility that his God only created the Milky Way Galaxy and other gods created all the other Galaxies. Fantasies are only restricted by our ability to fantasize them.
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Old 28th January 2020, 03:36 PM   #552
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Just trying to help in my own small way.
Alas, I am old and cynical. Likely, I will pop my clogs ant some not too distant. More of my life is behind me, not before me.

Nevertheless, will I have a deathbed conversion? Not a chance.

I have already had this mortality conversation with my kids. When I croak, put me in a cheap cardboard box, burn my corpse to a crisp, scatter my ashes wherever you wish.

When I am dead, I am dead. It matters not what happens to my remains.

Funny thing is that, while the god botherers are supposed to believe the very same thing, they refuse to do so.

How odd.
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Old 28th January 2020, 03:38 PM   #553
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Here is a reference to all (most?) of the mentions of creation in the bible. Lots of mentions of "heaven" but no description of what that encompasses. One actual reference to "universe" - Hebrews 11:3. I wonder what people actually considered the universe to be when that was written. or even if the word or concept of "universe" existed.

https://www.biblehub.com/genesis/1-1.htm

That line "He made the stars also" on the third day is something of a give away. That and that stuff about "stars falling to Earth" later in the good book gives you a good indication of the scope of knowledge of the authors (God inspired?) of the book.
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Old 28th January 2020, 05:05 PM   #554
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I have a Christian friend that seriously entertains the possibility that his God only created the Milky Way Galaxy and other gods created all the other Galaxies. Fantasies are only restricted by our ability to fantasize them.
I think a lot of religious people when they start to drill down on their thoughts on religion find themselves changing the doctrine of their religion to make it palatable to them.

I know I did. I came to the conclusion that Christ was telling us that we are all gods. Basically, Jesus wanted all of us to know we are capable of great things if we put aside our doubts and just believe that we could. That the biggest thing holding any of us back was our self doubt. To me, the only thing valuable in the Bible was that we need to treat each other kindness and love and believe in the God inside us.

I remember very well trying to tell my pastor what I thought and he claimed that this was wrong and blasphemous. That was my last day in the church. Finally, I came to the conclusion that I was trying desperately to force a square peg into a round hole. I couldn't ever square the Bible with reality.
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Old 28th January 2020, 05:18 PM   #555
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
To me, the only thing valuable in the Bible was that we need to treat each other kindness and love and believe in the God good inside us.
ftfy
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Old 28th January 2020, 05:43 PM   #556
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
ftfy
Yes ...pretty much. But this was then, not now. There are lots of philosophers who have said similar things as Jesus.

I had locked into the passage after the disciples saw Jesus walk on water asking how he could do this and Jesus's response was that anything was possible as well as other passages. And if Jesus was the son of God and we are his brothers and also the children of god, how are we different?

This was all a convoluted rationalization of trying to remain a Christian and not be an outsider. I was just in the process of trying not to have to identify myself as a non-believer or god forbid, something much worse, an atheist!

There are lots of issues one faces de-converting and for me, the biggest one I faced was no longer belonging. I have friends who do not speak with me today. This was all a ramification of leaving religion.
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Old 28th January 2020, 05:47 PM   #557
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I think a lot of religious people when they start to drill down on their thoughts on religion find themselves changing the doctrine of their religion to make it palatable to them.
Interesting. A while ago a religious friend persuaded me to attend a catholic bible study class. All was well so long as I kept my mouth shut. Eventually, I could no longer hold it in and commenced pointing out the abject nonsense. The fear in the room was palpable. They were not afraid of me, I'm harmless. They were terrified of the challenge to their magic book. That was spooky.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I know I did. I came to the conclusion that Christ was telling us that we are all gods. Basically, Jesus wanted all of us to know we are capable of great things if we put aside our doubts and just believe that we could. That the biggest thing holding any of us back was our self doubt. To me, the only thing valuable in the Bible was that we need to treat each other kindness and love and believe in the God inside us.
Do you understand that is not a common interpretation? Not belittling it, but it is unusual.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I remember very well trying to tell my pastor what I thought and he claimed that this was wrong and blasphemous. That was my last day in the church. Finally, I came to the conclusion that I was trying desperately to force a square peg into a round hole. I couldn't ever square the Bible with reality.
I learned that was the square peg and there was no hole to fit into.

We each have our own path and must make of it as best we can.

In brief, my path was RCC, Santa, bugger all this crap, immerse in all psychic crap, grow up.

I can guarantee your path is different.

The path does not count, only the destination.
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Old 28th January 2020, 06:31 PM   #558
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I know I did. I came to the conclusion that Christ was telling us that we are all gods. Basically, Jesus wanted all of us to know we are capable of great things if we put aside our doubts and just believe that we could. That the biggest thing holding any of us back was our self doubt. To me, the only thing valuable in the Bible was that we need to treat each other kindness and love and believe in the God inside us.
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post

Do you understand that is not a common interpretation? Not belittling it, but it is unusual.
Of course I did. I took parts of it very seriously such as loving my neighbor and that everyone was important. But here you are wanting to fit in and not be separated from your community. The one thing you learn at church is that everyone believes in it differently and that you don't have to believe it all to stay part of the group. My issue was I believed almost none of it literally and here I was attending a church that took it all literally.

I knew I was going to have to find a church that allowed me to think and believe in it metaphorically as my interpretation was not only not common, it would be considered even radical. I threw out almost the entire bible and its theological teachings. I even toyed in my head of creating my own Christian ideology. Not that seriously though.

Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
I learned that was the square peg and there was no hole to fit into.

We each have our own path and must make of it as best we can.

In brief, my path was RCC, Santa, bugger all this crap, immerse in all psychic crap, grow up.

I can guarantee your path is different.

The path does not count, only the destination.
I would say the path is the only thing that counts. When we get to the destination, it's over.
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Old 28th January 2020, 06:39 PM   #559
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Interesting. A while ago a religious friend persuaded me to attend a catholic bible study class. All was well so long as I kept my mouth shut. Eventually, I could no longer hold it in and commenced pointing out the abject nonsense. The fear in the room was palpable. They were not afraid of me, I'm harmless. They were terrified of the challenge to their magic book. That was spooky.
Yes. Now imagine being in that position for 15 years and not saying a damn word because you know it won't be received well.

And I'm not the kind of guy to stay quiet. I was in theater. On the debate team. Competed seriously on a national level. I'm going to challenge anyone and everone including myself on anything and everything. Church was the exception.

For me, it was a mental hell.
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Old 28th January 2020, 07:21 PM   #560
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I've never had a god belief or any other form of supernatural/paranormal belief so can't appreciate what it's like to have one.
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