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Old 28th January 2020, 07:24 PM   #561
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I've never had a god belief or any other form of supernatural/paranormal belief so can't appreciate what it's like to have one.
Believe me when I tell you that it's weird.
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Old 28th January 2020, 07:28 PM   #562
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Believe me when I tell you that it's weird.
I do believe you and all the others that say the same thing. I've never understood how some can give it up then go back to it. Same with smoking and drugs (never been a smoker/druger either).
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Old 28th January 2020, 07:43 PM   #563
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I do believe you and all the others that say the same thing. I've never understood how some can give it up then go back to it. Same with smoking and drugs (never been a smoker/druger either).
Okay well addiction a different kind of thing. Once you're physically addicted to something and you quit it, it is a constant struggle not to go back to it. Believe me on this too.
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Old 28th January 2020, 07:58 PM   #564
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I've never had a god belief or any other form of supernatural/paranormal belief so can't appreciate what it's like to have one.
I can appreciate this. BTW, this is all bizzare even to me. I grew up going to church, going to Vacation Bible school and Bible Camp as a teenager. I received a lot of religious instruction and I'm really not sure I ever believed in any of it. I truly thought the adults teaching us in Sunday School about Noah and Jonah were nuts.

But I stll liked a lot of those people. People were nice to me. They held events like rafting trips and Barbecues and this might seem really blasphemous, it was also a great place to get laid.

So you tried to fit in. I tried to think of the bible entirely metaphorically. But if you said anything like that, you were told in no uncertain terms that these things were literally true. Still, you know there are many Christians who see it metaphorically. Just not my pastor.
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Old 28th January 2020, 08:08 PM   #565
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
That line "He made the stars also" on the third day is something of a give away. That and that stuff about "stars falling to Earth" later in the good book gives you a good indication of the scope of knowledge of the authors (God inspired?) of the book.
Are you suggesting their knowledge of God was flawed, or that they just made it all up?

Originally Posted by ynot
I have a Christian friend that seriously entertains the possibility that his God only created the Milky Way Galaxy and other gods created all the other Galaxies.
Do you think that is just silly? I do. But apparently Thor doesn't.

Originally Posted by abaddon
The fear in the room was palpable. They were not afraid of me, I'm harmless. They were terrified of the challenge to their magic book.
You don't understand religion. You see, most of the people in that room were just as unconvinced as you. They know it's all nonsense, but there are clear benefits to pretending to believe it. Remember The Emperor's New Clothes? Many people's fortunes were dashed that day.

While we sit here trying to show how smart we are for figuring out that God doesn't exist, others are out there in the real World - taking advantage of the real benefits of religious 'belief'. And not just in God. How many are making piles of money out of the belief that all foreigners are terrorists, or that non 'organic' food will kill you, or that you won't be happy unless you consume as much as possible etc. We need these religions to keep people working together and spreading the wealth around.

And we need to constantly lie to ourselves about reality, because few of us would survive discarding all our fantasies. You think religion is silly? Well so is everything that we think we are. A few of us have stared into that abyss and managed to pull back, finally realizing that while fantasy may be silly, it makes life a lot easier to bear in a Universe that doesn't care.

So religious people convince themselves that there is a God who cares about them, and they promote the fantasy so they can care about each other. Religion also gives them an authority to back up their laws and morals, a feeling of purpose and belonging, and even entertainment! Only a 'skeptic' would throw all that away in order to contemplate the futility of their existence.
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Old 28th January 2020, 08:11 PM   #566
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Huh!

How can I possibly clarify it further than what I have written?
We already have one poster playing the "I know you are but what about me?" card (and others running with it).

Don't say that "post of mine" means your post.
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Old 28th January 2020, 08:33 PM   #567
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
You don't understand religion. You see, most of the people in that room were just as unconvinced as you. They know it's all nonsense, but there are clear benefits to pretending to believe it. Remember The Emperor's New Clothes? Many people's fortunes were dashed that day.
Yeah, no. I remain firmly unconvinced that a majority of religious people are secretly atheists just pretending to believe in order to fit in with all the other people pretending.
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Old 28th January 2020, 08:36 PM   #568
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I asked previously but you ignored the request, please provide the source of the translation you are using to make your claim about what the Torah says about creation? . You claimed your definition was compatible with the various gods that the Abrahamic religions describe, I have shown your claim is wrong.
I provided a link and a quote way back in post #353.

It doesn't matter if that is the "wrong" translation. The idea that nobody else believes in a god that created the universe is still nonsense.
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Old 28th January 2020, 08:51 PM   #569
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Are you suggesting their knowledge of God was flawed, or that they just made it all up?

Do you think that is just silly? I do. But apparently Thor doesn't.

You don't understand religion. You see, most of the people in that room were just as unconvinced as you. They know it's all nonsense, but there are clear benefits to pretending to believe it. Remember The Emperor's New Clothes? Many people's fortunes were dashed that day.

While we sit here trying to show how smart we are for figuring out that God doesn't exist, others are out there in the real World - taking advantage of the real benefits of religious 'belief'. And not just in God. How many are making piles of money out of the belief that all foreigners are terrorists, or that non 'organic' food will kill you, or that you won't be happy unless you consume as much as possible etc. We need these religions to keep people working together and spreading the wealth around.

And we need to constantly lie to ourselves about reality, because few of us would survive discarding all our fantasies. You think religion is silly? Well so is everything that we think we are. A few of us have stared into that abyss and managed to pull back, finally realizing that while fantasy may be silly, it makes life a lot easier to bear in a Universe that doesn't care.

So religious people convince themselves that there is a God who cares about them, and they promote the fantasy so they can care about each other. Religion also gives them an authority to back up their laws and morals, a feeling of purpose and belonging, and even entertainment! Only a 'skeptic' would throw all that away in order to contemplate the futility of their existence.
You are so right on Roger.

I loved the Emperor's New Clothes as a kid because the moral of the story is out of the mouths of babes and wisdom can come from anywhere.

But as an adult, I despise it. Because the truth is that people would tell the kid to shut up. His epiphany would not be welcome.

And that is the way of the world. I was invited as about a twenty year old to join Demolay. Which is like a "Youth Shriner". They do a lot of good work and have a lot of fun doing it. And you can develop a lot of connections. I wanted to join in the worst way. It's not a religious organisation per se, but you have to take an oath declaring there is a greater power. And being the stupid stubborn young man I was and recently out of the church couldn't get myself to do that. I mean, I could have lied. I'm convinced a lot of people lie to fit in.

The world carries on this charade and the only way we can ever break the spell of absurdity is for enough people to say the Emperor is naked as the day he was born.
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Old 29th January 2020, 12:29 AM   #570
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Here is a reference to all (most?) of the mentions of creation in the bible. Lots of mentions of "heaven" but no description of what that encompasses. One actual reference to "universe" - Hebrews 11:3. I wonder what people actually considered the universe to be when that was written. or even if the word or concept of "universe" existed.



https://www.biblehub.com/genesis/1-1.htm
The Roman Catholic Church's description of their god does have it that their god and/or gods created everything. Remember that for many religions that use "the Bible" as a source will also include other texts etc. to define their god. Biblical literalism is rather rare in relative numbers.
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Old 29th January 2020, 12:43 AM   #571
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yeah, no. I remain firmly unconvinced that a majority of religious people are secretly atheists just pretending to believe in order to fit in with all the other people pretending.
I agree, my experience is that most people just accept it without ever thinking too much about it and they are not having constant angst internal debates with themselves. As their particular preacher is telling them about the sin of x they are more likely thinking about whether they have enough carrots in the pantry for the Sunday lunch than "but if X is a sin then what about when Jesus said...".

Religion for many folk is just a default setting.
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Old 29th January 2020, 12:49 AM   #572
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I provided a link and a quote way back in post #353.



It doesn't matter if that is the "wrong" translation. The idea that nobody else believes in a god that created the universe is still nonsense.
As I said, your objection to the translation I showed you (that showed your claim was false) is simply because it showed you were wrong. You have no actual fact based reason to reject the source I provided.

And for one that is quick to accuse others of using strawmen you are very quick to create your own strawman rather than deal with what someone has actually posted. I have never said that nobody else believes in a god that created the universe...
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Old 29th January 2020, 01:35 AM   #573
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
As I said, your objection to the translation I showed you (that showed your claim was false) is simply because it showed you were wrong.
Stop this silly nonsense! Even if your source is the most authentic source in the world, at best you have shown that in some religions, it is not believed that god created the universe.

You have failed miserably to prove that a universe creating god is SO unique that it should be called a "pgod".
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Old 29th January 2020, 03:41 AM   #574
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
GR is not nonsense. It makes perfect sense, since it works. Strings, we're yet to find out.

Now, how about you answer my question?
psionl0?
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Old 29th January 2020, 04:19 AM   #575
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Stop this silly nonsense! Even if your source is the most authentic source in the world, at best you have shown that in some religions, it is not believed that god created the universe.

You have failed miserably to prove that a universe creating god is SO unique that it should be called a "pgod".
I have simply shown that your god is not a god that any of the religions I know about share, as far as I can tell there is not a single. religion that defines their god as you define your god.
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Old 29th January 2020, 04:27 AM   #576
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
psionl0?
What? Do you think that we can have a sensible discussion about this with the equivalent of flat earthers? Let's try:

GR predicts that the universe originates as a singularity. However, GR doesn't apply to dimensions that are subatomic - let alone of the order of a singularity. That is one of the reasons for a search for a unifying theory.

String theory is one such theory. However, in order for the mathematics to work, we require more than 4 space time dimensions (as many as 26 for bosonic string theory).

We don't yet know how to test for the existence of these dimensions but we "know" that none of them contain any intelligence (other than the 3 spatial dimensions we already know). Right?
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Old 29th January 2020, 04:39 AM   #577
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
What? Do you think that we can have a sensible discussion about this with the equivalent of flat earthers?
Given that the one who's on the side of ignorance and pseudo-logic is you, I'd say you're in a better position than I to answer that.

Quote:
GR predicts that the universe originates as a singularity. However, GR doesn't apply to dimensions that are subatomic - let alone of the order of a singularity.
Nothing applies to singularities. They are concepts; mathematical constructs unlikely to actually exist. What a singularity implies is a breakdown in the theory. You seem to imply instead that another theory would deal with singularities. I doubt that very much. Also, I do hope you're not using the two definitions of "dimension" here interchangeably.

Quote:
That is one of the reasons for a search for a unifying theory.
You've forgotten that we already have a theory that applies to the subatomic. It's called quantum mechanics. It also happens to be probably the best-supported scientific theory of all time. Unifying the two is certainly a good goal but it's not required to deal with what you're describing.

Quote:
String theory is one such theory. However, in order for the mathematics to work, we require more than 4 space time dimensions (as many as 26 for bosonic string theory).

We don't yet know how to test for the existence of these dimensions but we "know" that none of them contain any intelligence (other than the 3 spatial dimensions we already know). Right?
I'm having trouble parsing this. Dimensions with intelligence? What are you on about?

Are you ever going to answer my actual question? How is GR "nonsense", with or without scare quotes?
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Old 29th January 2020, 05:40 AM   #578
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Given that the one who's on the side of ignorance and pseudo-logic is you
I knew that wouldn't go well.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Are you ever going to answer my actual question? How is GR "nonsense", with or without scare quotes?
You declared that all that I was doing was imagining nonsense. I asked if you would include GR and string theory as "nonsense".

You twisted that around by claiming that I was calling GR and string theory "nonsense". No doubt, you will twist this around too.
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Old 29th January 2020, 05:42 AM   #579
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I have simply shown that your god is not a god that any of the religions I know about share, as far as I can tell there is not a single. religion that defines their god as you define your god.
And I proved you 100% wrong.

The Nicene creed describes God as "Creator of Heaven and Earth and all things visible and invisible". That's a whole major sect of Christianity that believes that God is the creator of the universe.
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Old 29th January 2020, 05:54 AM   #580
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I knew that wouldn't go well.
Don't fling mud at others if you don't want to get dirty.

I see you sidestepped my points about singularities. Care to address them?

Quote:
You declared that all that I was doing was imagining nonsense. I asked if you would include GR and string theory as "nonsense".
No, that's not what you did. You implied that GR was nonsense, to which I responded that it was not. The jury's still out on string theory.

You still have NOT answered the question of why GR would be considered nonsense.
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Old 29th January 2020, 06:18 AM   #581
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You have failed miserably to prove that a universe creating god is SO unique that it should be called a "pgod".
*Very slowly, as if speaking to a young child*

Nobody is saying "Creates the universe" is a unique factor to assign to the concept of God.

"Creates the universe and then goes away" is a unique factor to assign to the concept of God. It's special pleading used only in philosophy and argumentatives and is not a characteristic of a God that is widely believed in.

This has been explained to you multiple times now.
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Old 29th January 2020, 06:35 AM   #582
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Nobody is saying "Creates the universe" is a unique factor to assign to the concept of God.
Except Darat. Why else do you think that he is making such a big noise about the reference he quoted about the Torah? Because it concludes that God didn't create the universe.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"Creates the universe and then goes away" is a unique factor to assign to the concept of God.
I never said "and then goes away". That is strictly your own argument.
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Old 29th January 2020, 06:37 AM   #583
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No, that's not what you did.
Yes it is.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You still have NOT answered the question of why GR would be considered nonsense.
Because I don't consider it nonsense.
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Old 29th January 2020, 06:42 AM   #584
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Yes it is.
Don't confuse what you wanted to say with what you actually said. I'm not concerned with the former, but it is what you _said_. I don't believe for a second that you're not aware of the turn of phrase you used and how it's used for rhetorical purposes:

- "Gods, I really dislike liars and frauds."
- "Oh, you mean, like Frank?"

The second line isn't a question; it's a statement that Frank is a liar and a fraud, phrased as a question.

Quote:
Because I don't consider it nonsense.
So why even mention it? If it's not nonsense, and no one but crackpots consider it to be nonsense, then why ask me if it's nonsense? What's your point, here?
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Old 29th January 2020, 06:43 AM   #585
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I never said "and then goes away".
Marvelous. Then we should have evidence for God's existence if he did exist.
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Old 29th January 2020, 06:44 AM   #586
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Marvelous. Then we should have evidence for God's existence if he did exist.
Psion this is your cue for a full fringe reset back to the start of the argument that somehow still starts at "I've already explained all of this!"
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Old 29th January 2020, 06:53 AM   #587
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I never said "and then goes away". That is strictly your own argument.
You know when you reach the "I'm gonna pretend I don't understand how language works" level of pettifogging (I do ever so much love that that term is back in usage) you've gone beyond tipping your hand and have laid your whole deck face up on the table.

At this point you've gotten pretty comfortable in a Gish Gallop, piling absurdities upon absurdities to such that every new absurdity has to be addressed by first addressing a dozen other absurdities it is built on, stonewalled by your abject refusal to clarify anything you say.

Your "But something must have created the universe so maybe God" argument that started the whole back and forth with Darat implies a God that created the universe but then went away. Stop acting obtuse it's not nearly as clever as you think.

You think a list of bad excuses why something can't be proven false is evidence that it is true. It is not.
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Old 29th January 2020, 07:02 AM   #588
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
At this point you've gotten pretty comfortable in a Gish Gallop, piling absurdities upon absurdities to such that every new absurdity has to be addressed by first addressing a dozen other absurdities it is built on, stonewalled by your abject refusal to clarify anything you say.
Otherwise known as the fractal shuffle, a term I coined to describe Jabba's style of 'effective debate'.
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Old 29th January 2020, 07:07 AM   #589
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Otherwise known as the fractal shuffle, a term I coined to describe Jabba's style of 'effective debate'.
That's why we're now about 10 pages in of:

Psion: "2+2, 6-2, 2x2, 2 squared, 8 divided by 2..."
Me: "So... 4?"
Psion: "I never said 4! That's a strawman! I demand the conversation stop and you show me were I said 4!"
Me: "*Sighs* Fine, whatever. Okay then what are you saying?"
Psion: *Long period of silence*
Psion: "So anyway 12/3, 10-6, The Latin prefix 'Quad," 3.95 rounded up....."
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Old 29th January 2020, 07:09 AM   #590
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Psion this is your cue for a full fringe reset back to the start of the argument that somehow still starts at "I've already explained all of this!"
I believe that I said long ago that a being that is capable of creating the universe is capable of avoiding detection.

But as long as the premise is that a creator is "impossible", any consequences of the existence of a creator are moot.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You think a list of bad excuses why something can't be proven false is evidence that it is true. It is not.
Again, strictly your own argument. I would never say anything so illogical.
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Old 29th January 2020, 07:27 AM   #591
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When discussing time it is helpful if everybody is familiar with the "A and B theories of time". Wikipedia article here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-theory_of_time

I'm only mentioning it becuase it so often seems like one person has only heard of one while the other has only heard of the other.

My personal preference is the B theory because it is so compatible with modern physics (the spacetime universe).
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Old 29th January 2020, 07:31 AM   #592
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I believe that I said long ago that a being that is capable of creating the universe is capable of avoiding detection.
And explained to you long ago that was special pleading and you never responded, just plowed ahead building more absurdities on top of it.

When you start at "God is different because he's magic and no rule can apply to him" everything you say after that is meaningless.

The invisible dragon in my garage created the universe and he's just as capable of avoiding detection as God.

We've all been waiting for about a week now on what the difference is.

Quote:
But as long as the premise is that a creator is "impossible", any consequences of the existence of a creator are moot.
And again just keep acting like none of this has been addressed. It really makes you look like you are an intellectually honest agent in this discussion.

God is equally possible to my garage dragon. You're demanding we only talk about one of them and only pitch a hissy fit when people say one of them doesn't exist. There's a reason.

Quote:
Again, strictly your own argument. I would never say anything so illogical.
Yeah we all heard your "I never said 4! I only said 2+2!" pearl clutching the first 50 times.
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Old 29th January 2020, 07:32 AM   #593
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I believe that I said long ago that a being that is capable of creating the universe is capable of avoiding detection.
He may be able to avoid detection, but he can't make it impossible to detect him.

You understand the difference, right?
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Old 29th January 2020, 07:34 AM   #594
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Psion. Answer one question. Answer it, don't evade it, don't fringe reset, don't create a new excuse argument. A simple, clear answer.

What is the difference between something that doesn't exist and something that is fundamentally undetectable?

Also how does something that can't be detected interact with the universe?

You're created a God that can do stuff but not leave evidence. That's not how reality works.

No wait, let me guess, God can do it because he's magic.
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Old 29th January 2020, 08:00 AM   #595
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
And I proved you 100% wrong.

The Nicene creed describes God as "Creator of Heaven and Earth and all things visible and invisible". That's a whole major sect of Christianity that believes that God is the creator of the universe.
Which yet again is not something I have argued against.
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Old 29th January 2020, 08:04 AM   #596
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah we all heard your "I never said 4! I only said 2+2!" pearl clutching the first 50 times.
I would never say anything illogical like that either. But I guess these are easier things to ridicule me over than the things that I actually say.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
What is the difference between something that doesn't exist and something that is fundamentally undetectable?
Although the analogy is not exact, consider this:

Is there anything smaller than a quark or a photon? We have no tools to break down these particles into smaller components. Just because we cant observe anything smaller, does that mean that we have to say that a quark is the smallest element of matter there is and anybody who posits that there may be something smaller is practising woo or engaging in "special pleading"?
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Old 29th January 2020, 08:05 AM   #597
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I believe that I said long ago that a being that is capable of creating the universe is capable of avoiding detection.

But as long as the premise is that a creator is "impossible", any consequences of the existence of a creator are moot.


Again, strictly your own argument. I would never say anything so illogical.
I agree that is an assertion you have made. You have no way to evidence that assertion.

Plus of course yet again that is not a god that religions claim exist. So as I may have mentioned once or twice the god you claim may exist is not a god any of the religions claim exists.
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Old 29th January 2020, 08:08 AM   #598
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Is there anything smaller than a quark or a photon? We have no tools to break down these particles into smaller components. Just because we cant observe anything smaller, does that mean that we have to say that a quark is the smallest element of matter there is and anybody who posits that there may be something smaller is practising woo or engaging in "special pleading"?
You have a knack for not answering questions.
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Old 29th January 2020, 08:08 AM   #599
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
He may be able to avoid detection, but he can't make it impossible to detect him.

You understand the difference, right?
One is the result of speculating the existence of a god and the other is an artificial limitation you place on the powers of a non-existent god?
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Old 29th January 2020, 08:09 AM   #600
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I just realized that multiple references to "The Dragon in My Garage" has been made and I'm not sure if everyone knows what that phrase is an exact reference to.

It's a sort of rational thinking parable if you will, one I first encountered in Carl Sagan's magnificent book The Demon Haunted World.

Here's my own version it.

I come to you one day and say that a fire breathing dragon lives in my garage.

You are, presumably, an intellectually curious sort of person and ask to see this dragon.

I, happily and willingly without any subterfuge or delay, walk you out to my garage. I pull out my keys, press a button on a keyfob, and we both watch as my garage door slowly and dramatically opens, the rays of sunshine spilling in, illuminating the interior.

You see my car, my water heater, some old boxes of off season holiday decorations, a work bench, some selves filled with normal cluttered bric-a-brac. Nothing out of the ordinary for any normal suburban garage.

What you fail to see is a dragon. You ask me where the dragon is. I indicate the interior of the garage with a wave of my hand and tell you that it's right there. I just failed to mention before that it is an invisible dragon.

You consider this. You tell me that you can't see any footprints in the dusty garage floor.

That's because, I say, the dragon floats a few inches above the ground, he doesn't walk.

You suggest we grab a can of spray paint you see on one of the shelves and spray it about, revealing the invisible floating dragon.

Go right ahead I say, but it won't work because the dragon is incorporeal.

You point out that nothing in the garage is burned or scorched, which is odd for a room that contains a firebreathing dragon.

This particular dragon, I explain to you, breathes a special heatless fire not known to science.

You ask if you can leave a tape recording running overnight, hoping to catch a roar or other vocalization from the dragon.

You absolutely can, I say, but the dragon is mute and doesn't vocalize.

You ask me what the dragon eats. I reply it's fully self sufficient and doesn't need food.

And back and forth we go for some time. You offer some possibly way of determining if a dragon lives in my garage and I replay with a special characteristic that my dragon has that means that test won't work.

And let's be clear here. I never once objectively lie in a purely intellectual sense or make a statement counter to the evidence we are observing.

I never go "The dragon is right there! I can see him, can't you!"

I never wait for you to turn your head for a split second and scream "There he is... aww you just missed him he ducked behind the Dodge" when you turn back around.

I don't show you fuzzy cell phone camera footage of a lizard and claim it's the dragon or a picture that looks like it was taken on a potato of some out of focus green thing that might be a dragon and offer it as proof.

I don't go "Well the dragon is hiding now because of the negative vibes you're putting off, the dragon only shows himself to true believers."

Eventually we stalemate. You have put forth every way you can think of to test my statement that a dragon lives in my garage and I have counter each of them with a special property my dragon has that makes the test not work.

We are left with two options; both of which explain everything we are seeing. In my garage is an invisible, incorporeal, floating, mute, metabolically perfect dragon that breathes heatless fire... or no dragon at all.

What's in my garage? In what way is a being that has no properties there, much less how is it a dragon?

Would anyone freak out, pitch a hissy fit, go on a long rant about how declarative absolute statements aren't intellectually honest if anyone looked me in the eye and told me a dragon didn't live in my garage?

Would anyone be dragonistic? We would we split hairs about strong belief versus weak believe, about whether or not we didn't believe in the dragon or believed in no dragon? Would anyone start making up even more special pleadings that I hadn't thought of to further the possibility that there is a dragon in my garage?

No. No they wouldn't. The absurdity is obvious.
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