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Old 13th February 2020, 06:20 AM   #1001
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Well then we've reached an unacceptable impasse. You can't just go "Well God is different from the garage dragon because I say so and just aggressively refuse to explain why.
Do you really think I've been aggressive?

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
BECAUSE YOU DON'T SAY "I DON'T KNOW" (OR DEMAND OTHER'S SAY IT) ABOUT THINGS WITH EQUAL EVIDENCE FOR AND EQUAL EVIDENCE AGAINST THAT AREN'T GOD. JESUS GODDAMN NON-EXISTENT CHRIST HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN THIS?!
Shouting, swearing, browbeating..

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That's "the baggage" you're pretending isn't by demanding the "God" debate takes place in a vacuum where we aren't discussing God completely different from how we discuss everything else.
Jesus, Joe. I'm not demanding anything. I've brought up a somewhat analogous situation regarding the possibility/probability of extraterrestrial life, which we also have no evidence for, but you've ignored that. ETs are an example of the "everything else" you refer to above.


Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Suddenly coy, passive aggressive, obtuse, and totally unable to make a clear statement and having lost all concepts of burden of proof and how reality works*
When have I become suddenly coy, passive-aggressive? Oh, that was psion. This reminds of the Benghazi thread. TBD would say "tee-hee" and wind everyone up for a couple of pages, then say "oh dear" and the whole cycle would repeat. I'm not saying psion is a troll, just that the reactions to brief posts are ... disproportional, and filled with all sorts of projection, because "I don't know" drives you up a wall. I'm not making any claims. This is just honestly how I feel. You don't have to explain anything; I've read you dragon thing a bazillion times.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That shift in tone is the goddamn baggage. That right there. I'm not explaining this again.
I'm glad you're not explaining it again. That would be merciful. I'm not aware I've made any shift in tone but maybe you can point out where I have.
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Old 13th February 2020, 06:30 AM   #1002
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Do you really think I've been aggressive?
I think you're putting a lot of effort into pretending that you aren't treating the concept of "God" differently for no reason and a lot of effort into not addressing a single thing I've said.

Now you're waiting for me to get frustrated so you can dismiss me as "mean."

I've played this game before.

I ask again. Why is the question of God special or different that it has to be discussed this way? Vague, shrugging "Well just becauses" do not count.

You and Psion seem to think we just have to keep looking for a God so the question "Does God exist?" is somehow more valid or open then the question "Is there an invisible dragon in my garage?" so we have to, just have to, answer it differently and aren't allowed to give a definitive "No" answer on it. That's nonsense.

If we look into a garage and don't see a dragon, you would be intellectually confident in saying "There is no Dragon in this garage" indeed you would never even have the need to ask the question. "Okay but how we can be sure there isn't a dragon in the garage?" when there's no reason to even ask the question in the first place isn't just wrong, it's absurdist.

God is the same, regardless of the screaming, whining, special pleadings, or philosophical hairsplitting.

I'm not disproving a God. I'm asking for a VALID reason we're even asking the question.
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Old 13th February 2020, 06:37 AM   #1003
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Forget the garage.

What’s the essential difference in saying . . .

“A magical, invisible dragon exists, or possibly exists”.

and . . .

“A magical, invisible god exists, or possibly exists”.
I've never said anything about magic or invisibility, and I've not attributed those aspects to any supreme being, or any dragons. Darat says that some kind of abstract God without any specified traits isn't a God that any human being worships and such a God can be dismissed. To try to bring this back on topic ... I don't believe in any religion; it's all weird to me. Sometimes "silly"; sometimes a lot worse than silly.
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Old 13th February 2020, 06:38 AM   #1004
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Do you really think I've been aggressive?

Shouting, swearing, browbeating..
Aggressive? No. You are simply getting two barrels of the frustration that seems aplenty in this thread.

Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Jesus, Joe. I'm not demanding anything. I've brought up a somewhat analogous situation regarding the possibility/probability of extraterrestrial life, which we also have no evidence for, but you've ignored that. ETs are an example of the "everything else" you refer to above.
Sorry, but no. We already know that life can occur on a planet because we are here. Given the cornucopia of billions of planets in our galaxy alone, it is reasonable to think that life may have formed on another.

Now how many gods can we say the same of?
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Old 13th February 2020, 06:41 AM   #1005
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I've never said anything about magic or invisibility, and I've not attributed those aspects to any supreme being, or any dragons. Darat says that some kind of abstract God without any specified traits isn't a God that any human being worships and such a God can be dismissed. To try to bring this back on topic ... I don't believe in any religion; it's all weird to me. Sometimes "silly"; sometimes a lot worse than silly.
Jesus not another made up God that nobody believes in that only exists as an excuse "But why not God?" in arguments.

If you're going to use the exact same arguments as Psion in the exact same order following the exact same script I can just read his posts again.
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Old 13th February 2020, 06:44 AM   #1006
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post

You and Psion seem to think we just have to keep looking for a God so the question "Does God exist?" is somehow more valid or open then the question "Is there an invisible dragon in my garage?" so we have to, just have to, answer it differently and aren't allowed to give a definitive "No" answer on it. That's nonsense.
I don't have any opinion on "what we have to do." Certainly I'm not saying you *have to do* anything. Of course you're allowed to give a definitive "no." You're arguing against things I've never said.
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Old 13th February 2020, 06:46 AM   #1007
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I do wish the God Botherers would just cut the crap and jump straight ahead to pure solipsism instead of holding our hands as they lower the intellectual bar step by step until we inevitably get there just so they can retain belief in this one concept.
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Old 13th February 2020, 06:50 AM   #1008
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I don't have any opinion on "what we have to do." Certainly I'm not saying you *have to do* anything. Of course you're allowed to give a definitive "no." You're arguing against things I've never said.
If I say "There's not a dragon in my garage" nobody has anything to say about it, the conversation ends.

This conversation is still ongoing. You aren't going to get out of this with passiveness. The whole coy "Oh I'm totally not saying you aren't allowed to say there is no God... but I've gonna have words if you do" is not going to fly.

The core fact that we're having this discussion and not a "Invisible Dragon in my Garage" discussion is the point and it is unavoidable, indeed the longer you fight me on it the more it proves my point.
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Old 13th February 2020, 06:53 AM   #1009
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Aliens are the former; distance is the only reason we can’t know. God and the garage dragon are the latter; you can’t know because it gets rules why normal detection may never work because, even in principle, it must never be provably detected.

“I don’t know if aliens exist” is more like “I don’t know if there’s a lion on the other side of that gorge”

“I don’t know if God exists” is more like “I don’t know if fairies exist at the bottom of my garden.”
Sometimes I wonder if we'd even recognize alien life of we saw it.
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Old 13th February 2020, 07:27 AM   #1010
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Sometimes I wonder if we'd even recognize alien life of we saw it.
We might mistake life for something else for a while but there would be something to see. Maybe a forest-for-trees situation with something properly sci-fi. But there’s quite likely comprehensible life out there somewhere, which is more what the question is about.
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Old 13th February 2020, 07:29 AM   #1011
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"We might not recognize alien life the moment we see it" and "There's a God that we can never disprove because he's defined as magic" aren't the same thing.
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:36 AM   #1012
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It’s hard for me to wrap my head around the idea of acting/feeling like there’s not a categorical difference between things we theorize because of other information we actually have, and things we theorize because of cultural story traditions and good or spooky feelings and literally nothing else.
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:50 AM   #1013
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And again if I go in my garage, don't see a dragon, and either go "There is no dragon" or (let's be real here) never even bother to ask the question because why would I, nobody runs into to demand a distinction between categories of unknown and knowable, between belief it to not be so or don't believe it to be so, or any other meaningless hairsplit.

Again the God Botherers are not going to be able to weasel their way out of this. If God was like the Dragon in my Garage we wouldn't be talking about him.

They want to keep hiding behind "We're just saying it's possible" while not addressing that is true of everything and yet we're only talking about God. This question has been asked a dozen times and not been answered.
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Old 13th February 2020, 10:08 AM   #1014
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And again if I go in my garage, don't see a dragon, and either go "There is no dragon" or (let's be real here) never even bother to ask the question because why would I, nobody runs into to demand a distinction between categories of unknown and knowable, between belief it to not be so or don't believe it to be so, or any other meaningless hairsplit.

Again the God Botherers are not going to be able to weasel their way out of this. If God was like the Dragon in my Garage we wouldn't be talking about him.

They want to keep hiding behind "We're just saying it's possible" while not addressing that is true of everything and yet we're only talking about God. This question has been asked a dozen times and not been answered.
It will never change Joe. The God believers minds are captured by hope and fear They are enslaved by the promise of everlasting life and the fear of being tortured forever. Religion is by far, the most successful con game ever perpetrated.
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Old 13th February 2020, 10:14 AM   #1015
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It will never change Joe. The God believers minds are captured by hope and fear They are enslaved by the promise of everlasting life and the fear of being tortured forever. Religion is by far, the most successful con game ever perpetrated.
I don't know. I mean there are, certainly, those people in the discussion but the "I don't believe in a God but it is vitally important that the God discussion be held to different standards and be discussed differently" is in there some word.

It's weird it's like there's a belief in God and a... belief in the God belief. (Not sure if that makes sense.)
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Old 13th February 2020, 11:06 AM   #1016
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't know. I mean there are, certainly, those people in the discussion but the "I don't believe in a God but it is vitally important that the God discussion be held to different standards and be discussed differently" is in there some word.

It's weird it's like there's a belief in God and a... belief in the God belief. (Not sure if that makes sense.)
From a logical perspective, it makes no sense. But from an emotional perspective it makes a great deal of sense.

All of us, (I think I'm safe saying this) have an almost constant inner dialogue going on. We want to be heard and understood. Just like we want to be heard and understood when we are talking to others. It would be horrible to be ignored when we are talking out loud. The idea of a god fills that need.

Someone is listening. Someone cares. Religion fills an emotional need. From an intellectual perspective, the idea is vapid.
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Old 13th February 2020, 11:40 AM   #1017
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I agree with that in general but Joe is talking more about the people that, broadly, think religion does look pretty bunk-ish but want to leave the door explicitly open for whatever reason. For instance, feeling like a hard no is too much of a slight to all the believers, or to a specific believer. Or a Pascal’s Wager type feeling that it might be too audacious. Or a feeling that their own sense of soulfulness etc could mean something more. Etc etc.

Minoosh’s position sounds like it’s the (IMO misplaced) feeling that they’re in too insignificant a position (ability to know things wise) to make a ruling on something that seems so important.
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Old 13th February 2020, 12:06 PM   #1018
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
I agree with that in general but Joe is talking more about the people that, broadly, think religion does look pretty bunk-ish but want to leave the door explicitly open for whatever reason. For instance, feeling like a hard no is too much of a slight to all the believers, or to a specific believer. Or a Pascal’s Wager type feeling that it might be too audacious. Or a feeling that their own sense of soulfulness etc could mean something more. Etc etc.

Minoosh’s position sounds like it’s the (IMO misplaced) feeling that they’re in too insignificant a position (ability to know things wise) to make a ruling on something that seems so important.
You pretty much nailed it. I don't think I ever believed in that nonsense. And yet I left that door open almost all my life. Going to church and church outings. Taking communion.
Keeping quiet about my thoughts. Bowing my head and pretending to pray.

There is a practicality in not confronting it. Fighting against the tide. And why bother if they get some comfort in the idea? Even simply saying you don't believe among believers is like putting blood in the water.

But I've had it with the phony believers. I've had it with the promotion of ignorance squared. I've had it with the bigotry. I've had it with the sexism. I've had it with the idea they have a right to tell me what is moral and good. They don't have a ******* clue on that score.

I now feel I have a responsibility to fight back against superstition and their mind forged manacles. This is the 21st century, not the first. It is is the modern age not the dark age.

Enough is enough.
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Old 13th February 2020, 12:07 PM   #1019
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The garage dragon should help illustrate the absurdity but apparently it doesn’t. You get people declaring that it’s not the same thing. I’m not sure how to make it any clearer though. I mean, I initially thought the garage dragon was a little insulting myself but I’ve settled into it.

How else do you illustrate the idea that you, that everyone, is comfortable ruling out all kinds of ideas that are immune to investigation, unless they sound cool enough. The last few holdouts tend to fall out in order of magnitude: general superstition, psychics, ghosts, gods.

Immune to investigation is an important aspect. Compare and contrast psychics and Bigfoot. There was a time when we thought we might just be lacking evidence for both, so it was fair to say you weren’t sure either way. But now we’ve got reams and reams of rigorously attempted investigations.

Bigfoot, we have to say, well, we’ve looked in all the right places now; we still got nothing at all. So, we’re comfortable ruling it out. There’s just no such North American beast. Current interest is largely trolling. Because you can’t pretend Bigfoot is immune to investigation.

Psychics though? Still got nothing at all, but that’s because powers don’t work around skeptics! Psychic powers carefully regiment themselves to be statistically indistinguishable from chance! Psychics are immune to investigation. Like the garage dragon, and gods.
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Old 13th February 2020, 12:29 PM   #1020
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Even simply saying you don't believe among believers is like putting blood in the water.
Boy oh boy do I ever feel that one. I do feel like a coward sometimes. There are a lot of things I wish I could confront but I can’t rule out the possibility that it’s not the best thing for me to try to do!

Many people just have no room at all in their life for the idea of not having a benevolent god. I wish I had the same conviction that religion is, at least, an overall a positive force in the world. Then I could be content with simple live and let live. But I must have, for myself, some acceptance that I’m allowed to reach my own conclusions. And I must have, for others, some assurance that the religious will allow enough introspection and questioning to avoid harming real people in the real world over a bunch of church politics that have ruthlessly cherry picked and hijacked or even just made up their scriptures and traditions, for whatever money or god-bothering jollies their leaders are pursuing.

Most people are good so I imagine most religious people are good, but most human beings in general do come equipped with a big fuckoff brass ring in their nose. I’ve got mine. I worry that a lot of people think they haven’t got one. And religion is just quietly slipping ropes through those things all the time.

Last edited by Lithrael; 13th February 2020 at 12:33 PM.
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Old 13th February 2020, 12:38 PM   #1021
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I would never have guessed that this was equivalent to "You must admit a god is at least not possible".

I would have thought it was the lack of evidence of existence that lead to that conclusion. Even then, nobody is about to tar and feather somebody who remains skeptical that such a species is really extinct.

Of course we have covered this already. You are describing something that is testable (in theory at least). We don't know the smallest fraction about the whole universe (or is it "multiverse?")
I hope your amazing “scientific mind” has never had anything to do with the design, manufacture and maintenance of any plane I’m ever going to fly in.
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Old 13th February 2020, 12:42 PM   #1022
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The foot I leave in the door is this:

I’m always slightly unsettled by the idea that you get whatever afterlife you believe. If this was true then those who believe in something fun would get a fun afterlife but me, who if you really drill down, can’t shake the obvious truth that we’re a meaty process at heart, I’d get nothing, and that’s not fair! So I leave in, well, any afterlife-getting-process worth its salt would be fair, so I’d get something I’d like anyway.
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Old 13th February 2020, 12:44 PM   #1023
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I've never said anything about magic or invisibility, and I've not attributed those aspects to any supreme being, or any dragons. Darat says that some kind of abstract God without any specified traits isn't a God that any human being worships and such a God can be dismissed. To try to bring this back on topic ... I don't believe in any religion; it's all weird to me. Sometimes "silly"; sometimes a lot worse than silly.
Oh dear! . . . Never mind . . .
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Old 13th February 2020, 12:45 PM   #1024
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
The garage dragon should help illustrate the absurdity but apparently it doesn’t. You get people declaring that it’s not the same thing. I’m not sure how to make it any clearer though. I mean, I initially thought the garage dragon was a little insulting myself but I’ve settled into it.

How else do you illustrate the idea that you, that everyone, is comfortable ruling out all kinds of ideas that are immune to investigation, unless they sound cool enough. The last few holdouts tend to fall out in order of magnitude: general superstition, psychics, ghosts, gods.

Immune to investigation is an important aspect. Compare and contrast psychics and Bigfoot. There was a time when we thought we might just be lacking evidence for both, so it was fair to say you weren’t sure either way. But now we’ve got reams and reams of rigorously attempted investigations.

Bigfoot, we have to say, well, we’ve looked in all the right places now; we still got nothing at all. So, we’re comfortable ruling it out. There’s just no such North American beast. Current interest is largely trolling. Because you can’t pretend Bigfoot is immune to investigation.

Psychics though? Still got nothing at all, but that’s because powers don’t work around skeptics! Psychic powers carefully regiment themselves to be statistically indistinguishable from chance! Psychics are immune to investigation. Like the garage dragon, and gods.
The falsifiability of any claim is essential. Without some ability to falsify, the claim borders on being worthless. It is merely an hypothesis that shouldn't be considered seriously

God believers value "faith" which is a concept that should be ridiculed not admired. It is merely sticking a flag in the ground and defending it without reason.
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Old 13th February 2020, 12:49 PM   #1025
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The falsifiability of any claim is essential. Without some ability to falsify, the claim borders on being worthless. It is merely an hypothesis that shouldn't be considered seriously

God believers value "faith" which is a concept that should be ridiculed not admired. It is merely sticking a flag in the ground and defending it without reason.
“Faith is a virtue” has to be the most successful con perpetrated by religions.
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Old 13th February 2020, 02:10 PM   #1026
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The rituals of baptism and last rights come to mind. My first hand knowledge of these rituals is limited but I draw on that portrayed in movies such as "The Godfather" for example. The RCC seems to do these things with greater flair than other churches perhaps?

On the one hand I wonder at the elaborate nature of the ritual of baptism. A pinch of this stuff, a pinch of that, a splash of water, a smoking gadget, repeated crossings, and so on. How did all this crap evolve?

That is one part of the absurdity. This is the other:

Limbo was once part of Catholic doctrine. A place where unbaptised infants where accommodated. A concept conceived to give comfort to grieving parents of those unfortunates. But now the place has been shut down and the real estate sold off! So what happens to the unbaptised now?

Some wishy washy utterances have been heard emanating from The Vatican that those infant souls will somehow get into Heaven any way. What! If so why baptise in the first place?

Similar argument can be made about last rights. Folk killed before a priest can get there to perform his mumbo jumbo. Have they got a lesser chance of getting thru those pearly gates?

The silliness just goes on and on.
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Old 13th February 2020, 02:53 PM   #1027
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
“Faith is a virtue” has to be the most successful con perpetrated by religions.
Yep. And Christianity has even managed to make the want for evidence to be a flaw. Talk about a magic trick you doubting Thomas!
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Old 13th February 2020, 03:53 PM   #1028
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Yep. And Christianity has even managed to make the want for evidence to be a flaw. Talk about a magic trick you doubting Thomas!

Yes Doubting Thomas. Got to be made a saint in spite of his lack of belief. A lack of belief that persisted although he was there with Jesus when Jesus was strutting his stuff. Raising the dead, turning water into claret, strolling across the sea and so on. Modern man has to believe without any of these magical demonstrations.

Oh the contrary nature of the believer though. Although extolling the virtue of belief without evidence, whenever some miracle like event happens, they grab it with both hands.
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Old 13th February 2020, 05:23 PM   #1029
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Sighs* If every possible answer is countered with "Well no because I'd added a criteria that I didn't mention before why this test doesn't disprove it" then yes it's textbook special pleading.

You and Psion are as closing to claiming there is a dragon in my garage as is possible without actually saying the words garage and dragon.

What would convince you there is no possibility of a God? If you don't have an answer, even a hypothetical one, then you aren't being intellectually honest.

I could be convinced there is a God easily. Just show me some evidence. If I walk in my garage and there's a 20 foot tall fire breathing reptile squatting on top of my Dart having laid a clutch of eggs down the sunroof I will, after calling my insurance company because this is going to be a lot of paperwork, happily accept the existence of Garage Dragons.

I can give you reasonable criteria for presented facts and evidence that would change my mind. You can not or will not do the same.
Do you really have a Dart?
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Old 13th February 2020, 05:46 PM   #1030
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Do you really have a Dart?
We know Dart's exist and commonly dwell in garages. This is a mundane claim.

Can you state the same for garage dragons?

You can't and you know it. So stop wasting everyone's time.
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Old 13th February 2020, 07:41 PM   #1031
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All god beliefs fail at the very first “burden of proof” hurdle. Is there any need or point to argue anything else with god believers beyond this terminal failure?
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Old 13th February 2020, 07:54 PM   #1032
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
This is just meaningless sophistry made with the intention of avoiding having to justify your claim that "being unable to know whether something exists is philosophically identical with knowing that it does not".
ynot responded to that particular misinterpretation of my statement quite adequately if you also take into account the observation added by me. So I have nothing to avoid. Unlike you, who has been avoiding answering my question.
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Old 13th February 2020, 08:00 PM   #1033
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
The rituals of baptism and last rights come to mind. My first hand knowledge of these rituals is limited but I draw on that portrayed in movies such as "The Godfather" for example. The RCC seems to do these things with greater flair than other churches perhaps?

On the one hand I wonder at the elaborate nature of the ritual of baptism. A pinch of this stuff, a pinch of that, a splash of water, a smoking gadget, repeated crossings, and so on. How did all this crap evolve?
My church practised full-immersion baptism. I was completely submerged in water in order to wash my sins away.

The elaborate rituals arose the way elaborate rituals always rise. It's part confirmation bias: I did this thing and that happened. I'll do that thing again and maybe that will happen again. And it's part people creating meaningless ritual in order to formalise a certain process so that it can be repeated reliably.
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Old 13th February 2020, 08:03 PM   #1034
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm not disproving a God. I'm asking for a VALID reason we're even asking the question.
This. This is it, in a nutshell. Especially psionl0's potential undetectable deity existing outside the universe. What purpose does asking that question serve? Let's just not even bother with it.
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Old 13th February 2020, 08:12 PM   #1035
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
This. This is it, in a nutshell. Especially psionl0's potential undetectable deity existing outside the universe. What purpose does asking that question serve? Let's just not even bother with it.
And that's the elephant in the room that we can't make eye contact because it's "mean."

Nobody is actually going to make a point of arguing for some hypothetical God that might exist maybe in some vague way vaguely if we squint, tilt our head, and completely work backwards down the burden of proof until we've disproved an undefined variable for no reason.

Anyone who is bending over backwards to make this many excuses to just keep the question going is doing it for a reason. It's absurd to argue otherwise and intellectually pathetic how long "Whaat? I'm just asking questions is all..." act goes on.

Now does this always mean a literal belief in God? No, it usually is but as I stated this weird one step removed "Belief in the God Belief" pops up from time to time as well.
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:15 PM   #1036
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
We know Dart's exist and commonly dwell in garages. This is a mundane claim.

Can you state the same for garage dragons?

You can't and you know it. So stop wasting everyone's time.
I'm not wasting your time.
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:35 PM   #1037
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Having absolutely no evidence that a thing exists (even if it does), is no different for practical purposes than that thing not existing. A purely imagined/believed god is one such thing.
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Old 13th February 2020, 10:32 PM   #1038
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Which I answered.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
if you also take into account the observation added by me.
So you think that "Not knowing if there is anything outside of a container is "philosophically" identical to knowing that nothing is outside the container" is any less silly?

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
So I have nothing to avoid. Unlike you, who has been avoiding answering my question.
That conflicts with your "outside the container" analogy.

If you claim that the universe is finite and bounded and that nothing could possibly exist beyond its boundaries then that is at best an unfounded claim and at worst reasoning by tautology (nothing can exist outside the universe therefore God can't exist).
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Old 13th February 2020, 10:35 PM   #1039
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I hope your amazing “scientific mind” has never had anything to do with the design, manufacture and maintenance of any plane I’m ever going to fly in.
Annnnnd - back to rule 12 territory.

If that is the way that you deal with a post you can't rebut then you have nothing useful to add.
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Old 13th February 2020, 10:44 PM   #1040
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If you claim that the universe is finite and bounded...
I do not claim that.
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