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Old 31st December 2019, 05:43 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
This is my thinking too.

In the first place, do they really expect us to believe any place could be so nice they named it twice?

In the second place I have been to York. Why would they need a new one if the old one is still there?
Arthur Dent was similarly sceptical;
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New * York * has * gone. * No * reaction. * He'd *never * seriously * believed * it * existed * anyway.
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Old 31st December 2019, 06:01 PM   #82
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[quote=yankee451;12939544]I am capable of doing my own thinking.[quote]I see no evidence of such activity. Have you some to offer?

Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
If that makes me an expert, then so be it.
Nope. Unfounded nonsense does not an expert make.

Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
If you require an expert to do your thinking for you, then you'll have to take my word for it.
Said "not an expert".

Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
All the views of the "live" impact were capturing the north face of the North Tower. None of them caught the "crash." Those that do show the crash were not broadcast live.
That claim flies in the face of reality. Do you not grok reality? Why not?
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Old 31st December 2019, 06:06 PM   #83
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[quote=abaddon;12939562][quote=yankee451;12939544]I am capable of doing my own thinking.
Quote:
I see no evidence of such activity. Have you some to offer?

Nope. Unfounded nonsense does not an expert make.

Said "not an expert".

That claim flies in the face of reality. Do you not grok reality? Why not?
Digging in your heels and deferring to authority is it? Then seek out an expert that you deem worthy. Until then, we'll have to go with the conclusion that any kid who has ever run a stick against a picket fence can attest to. Any adult lacking that experience can also seek out a second opinion that better suits their fancy. Or they can take a stab at doing their own thinking, and coming up with a better explanation for it.
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Old 31st December 2019, 06:14 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
I am capable of doing my own thinking. If that makes me an expert, then so be it. If you require an expert to do your thinking for you, then you'll have to take my word for it.

All the views of the "live" impact were capturing the north face of the North Tower. None of them caught the "crash." Those that do show the crash were not broadcast live.
I'm not indicating that you are not capable of thinkin, however training helps one form a better picture of what happened, you don't have that, but rely on your biased viewpoint. No I'll not take your words for any description of what happened.

Yes the "live" views were from the east and north viewpoints, Other videos show the same plane hitting the tower from the south, for those that haven't seen them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YLm3pkAiJQ
11 minute video with timestamps for ease of watching
3:39, 4:56, 5:37* best image of a plane hitting the tower, 6:28, 8:44, 9:11 ( doesn't show the plane hitting the tower as a building in in the way), 10:18.

In all views along the way, a plane approaches the tower and slams into it. You may ignore the fact that it was a plane, but prudent individuals will not agree with your view.
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Old 31st December 2019, 06:24 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
I'm not indicating that you are not capable of thinkin, however training helps one form a better picture of what happened, you don't have that, but rely on your biased viewpoint. No I'll not take your words for any description of what happened.

Yes the "live" views were from the east and north viewpoints, Other videos show the same plane hitting the tower from the south, for those that haven't seen them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YLm3pkAiJQ
11 minute video with timestamps for ease of watching
3:39, 4:56, 5:37* best image of a plane hitting the tower, 6:28, 8:44, 9:11 ( doesn't show the plane hitting the tower as a building in in the way), 10:18.

In all views along the way, a plane approaches the tower and slams into it. You may ignore the fact that it was a plane, but prudent individuals will not agree with your view.
I mean no offense. There are very few ways to explain the damage. Prudent individuals all over the world can do as they like, but prudence doesn't change the evidence that leads me to my conclusions.

This is a wingtip from a 767.


We are to believe that this wingtip was only massive enough and wide enough to cause this little pinch to the aluminum cladding:


But a few feet away it was massive enough, and big enough, to sharply bend steel columns in a different direction than the wingtip was traveling.

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Old 31st December 2019, 08:12 PM   #86
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And here we go again.

Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
Answer:
Not even close to the weight of the plate steel it impacted.
Wrong.
Aluminium alloys are used extensively in aircraft due to their high strength-to-weight ratio. On the other hand, pure aluminium metal is much too soft for such uses, and it does not have the high tensile strength that is needed for airplanes and helicopters.

Aluminium alloys versus types of steel
Aluminium alloys typically have an elastic modulus of about 70 GPa, which is about one-third of the elastic modulus of most kinds of steel and steel alloys.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alumini...oys_properties

One third the strength is more than strong enough to break it under such conditions; there's a FEA proving it. Water can also cut through steel if thrown at a bigger speed and in a thin jet (google waterjet cutting), and it's not even a solid. The principle is the same: kinetic energy.

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Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
How does jet fuel add density to aluminum sheeting formed into the shape of an airfoil?
It adds density to the wing as a whole, thus increasing the mass, and with it, the kinetic energy.

Imagine yourself throwing an empty soda can to a glass. You will probably not hurt it. Now imagine yourself throwing it full. You will probably break it. Same material, different overall density.

And an airplane is much more than the sheeting. Focusing on the cover and forgetting about the structure is a lie by omission. Remember the wings must be strong enough to support the weight of the fuselage.









http://adg.stanford.edu/aa241/struct...es/image12.gif


Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
Surely you can use your math to demonstrate how the east-west bends and twists were caused by aluminum sheeting formed into the shape of a jet with 30 degree swept back wings striking in a north-south trajectory.

These two sheets look like they bent post-impact, due to the load. They bent east-west because it was far easier for them to bend east-west than north-south, due to their orientation and shape (a very oblong rectangle, i.e. basically, a sheet of steel with its faces pointing north and south).

However I think that parts of that picture show that the wing was pulled towards the hole by its own structure as the plane penetrated. Good catch.
"It's déjà vu all over again..."

Last edited by pgimeno; 31st December 2019 at 08:16 PM.
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Old 31st December 2019, 08:20 PM   #87
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The flattened, burned part was due to whatever large, hot, heavy thing was attached to the wing at that position. I cannot think what that might have been. Can you?
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Old 31st December 2019, 09:17 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
The flattened, burned part was due to whatever large, hot, heavy thing was attached to the wing at that position. I cannot think what that might have been. Can you?
You're referring to the engine?
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Old 31st December 2019, 09:31 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
[*]Deploy dozens of photographers to pose as amateurs.

Name three.
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Old 31st December 2019, 09:31 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
You're referring to the engine?
A spark of intelligence emerging?
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Old 31st December 2019, 09:41 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by curious cat View Post
A spark of intelligence emerging?
It is a dim light indeed.

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Old 31st December 2019, 09:43 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Name three.
Evan Fairbanks
Luc Courchesne
Michael Hezarkhani
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Old 31st December 2019, 09:47 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
At the far left of both impact holes, by itself the lightly damaged cladding is proof a 767's wing tip wasn't responsible.
Nope, it means the wingtip is less dense than the rest of the wing.

Quote:
A few feet away from the lightly damage aluminum sheeting are heavily damaged steel columns that were impacted from the side, in a completely different direction than the jet was traveling.
Nope, that's just how they bent on impact...unless you have data from another 767 crash into a tube frame skyscraper.

Quote:
On the ninth column from the left is an inward blasting hole, nowhere near where the alleged jet engine impacted.
You know that wing had flaps and flight control surfaces, right? They don't move by magic, they all motors, gears, and hydroponic lines not to mention internal frame work. The damage depicted is consistent with the 767's wing structure.

Quote:
Something, or some things, struck from the side.
Nope.

Quote:
Therefore what we were shown on television cannot have been responsible.
Uh huh.

Quote:
There are many more details discussed in the moderated post,
Inaccurate speculation based on zero knowledge of construction, aircraft parts, physics, and reality is not considered data.


Quote:
and of course on my site.
Your site is worthless.
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Old 31st December 2019, 09:50 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
If planes could do such things, there would be no need for missiles. Furthermore, if a plane did such a thing, the damage evidence would be consistent with it.
Oh, please, please, please educate us on what a 767 cannot do in flight.
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Old 31st December 2019, 09:50 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Nope, it means the wingtip is less dense than the rest of the wing.
I see. So the wingtip wasn't dense enough to sever the aluminum sheeting?
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Old 31st December 2019, 09:55 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Oh, please, please, please educate us on what a 767 cannot do in flight.
Some horses can't even be led to water, but apparently in your world, if it accelerates to the right speed, it'll cut through just about anything else.

Last edited by yankee451; 31st December 2019 at 09:56 PM.
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Old 31st December 2019, 09:56 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
I'm not indicating that you are not capable of thinkin, however training helps one form a better picture of what happened, you don't have that, but rely on your biased viewpoint. No I'll not take your words for any description of what happened.

Yes the "live" views were from the east and north viewpoints, Other videos show the same plane hitting the tower from the south, for those that haven't seen them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YLm3pkAiJQ
11 minute video with timestamps for ease of watching
3:39, 4:56, 5:37* best image of a plane hitting the tower, 6:28, 8:44, 9:11 ( doesn't show the plane hitting the tower as a building in in the way), 10:18.

In all views along the way, a plane approaches the tower and slams into it. You may ignore the fact that it was a plane, but prudent individuals will not agree with your view.
He can't articulate the facts because they all contradict his neurosis.

There were and are flight restrictions in place over Manhattan before and during 9-11. The TV coverage focused on the gaping hole from the first aircraft in the North Tower because that's where the action was taking place. News camera operators will always focus on the action.
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Old 31st December 2019, 09:58 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
I see. So the wingtip wasn't dense enough to sever the aluminum sheeting?
Explain what should have happened as the wing made contact with the building in detail. Explain how a 767's wing should behave upon impact with this specific structure and explain how this specific structure should have reacted to the impact.

In detail, please.
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Old 31st December 2019, 10:05 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
Some horses can't even be led to water, but apparently in your world, if it accelerates to the right speed, it'll cut through just about anything else.
Actually in my world this is true. I live on earth.

If I hit a telephone pole at 5mph with my pickup truck I get a dent in my truck with no damage to the pole. If I hit that same pole at 100mph I can snap it as my engine blows through the fire wall and crushes my lower body.

I can take a marble-sized piece of lead and throw it at a beer can and knock the can over, but if I mount that same piece of lead into a brass casing filled with Cordite and fire it from a .45 it will pass through the can, and the can will go flying.

Physics isn't just fun, it's the law.
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Old 31st December 2019, 10:21 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
Evan Fairbanks
Luc Courchesne
Michael Hezarkhani

Manhattan and NYC at large is the MEDIA CAPITAL OF THE WORLD. On any given day on just about any street in Manhattan, certainly in the East Village you are going to run into a world class photographer, just like you'll run into Playwrights, actors, fashion designers, and up until last year - Jeffrey Epstein.

The fact is that it would be harder to believe that no award winning photographers were in the area on 9-11.
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Old 31st December 2019, 10:28 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
Your "oops" is a Flap Track. Then again this whole thread is your oops.
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Old 31st December 2019, 10:32 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
We are to believe that this wingtip was only massive enough and wide enough to cause this little pinch to the aluminum cladding:

But a few feet away it was massive enough, and big enough, to sharply bend steel columns in a different direction than the wingtip was traveling.
Well yes, that's how wings work: thin at the tips and getting wider toward the body as needed for avionics. Avionics is the gadgetry inside the wings that help the plane fly. We stopped using magical elves after WWI.
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Old 31st December 2019, 10:32 PM   #103
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Please tell us how this was faked again.


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Old 31st December 2019, 10:42 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
WRT, the engine allegedly hit here-well, they ARE kinda' big.

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Old 31st December 2019, 10:47 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
WRT, the engine allegedly hit here-well, they ARE kinda' big.

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So this big engine punched not one, but two holes?
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Old 31st December 2019, 11:04 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Please tell us how this was faked again.


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Layer masks.

Remember, his footage was not shown "live." He is a pro. Editing his shot would only take a few minutes.

He rehearsed his shot and fabricated a 2D CGI animation of a jet with a transparent background, so as to have it ready to go from the same perspective as he would capture the shock and awe explosion.

He captured footage of the undamaged towers from the same perspective.

Using layer masks he used footage of the undamaged tower as a curtain that hid the real means used to cut the hole.

By the time the fireball erupted, the hole was already cut, but hidden behind the mask layer.

The CGI plane enters the frame a split second before the fireball erupts through the real hole (still hidden behind the mask layer).

The Plane layer is just another layer on top of the mask layer.

After the plane layer melts like butter into the mask layer of the undamaged tower (accompanied by drawn-on smoke), the mask layer is removed to reveal the fireball erupting through the hole.

Easy peasy.
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Old 31st December 2019, 11:07 PM   #107
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I wouldn't put much stock in Steve's photo interpretation skills, which more often than not have proved to be hilariously misguided, to be polite.. My personal favorite is the one which Steve mistakes a ******* tree for blast damage:

Originally Posted by Reactor drone
Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
That funnel of white smoke appears to have left a large, round, black scorch-mark almost as if a large explosive detonated there.
Do you mean the tree?


Good times, right Steve?

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Old 31st December 2019, 11:09 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Explain what should have happened as the wing made contact with the building in detail. Explain how a 767's wing should behave upon impact with this specific structure and explain how this specific structure should have reacted to the impact.

In detail, please.
I already did. The wingtip image shown is much more massive than the flimsy aluminum sheeting at the far left, but this massive wingtip couldn't even sever the aluminum sheeting at the far left. It was only big enough and massive enough to "pinch" the aluminum sheeting.
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Old 31st December 2019, 11:16 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
He rehearsed his shot and fabricated a 2D CGI animation of a jet with a transparent background, so as to have it ready to go from the same perspective as he would capture the shock and awe explosion.

He captured footage of the undamaged towers from the same perspective.

Using layer masks he used footage of the undamaged tower as a curtain that hid the real means used to cut the hole.

By the time the fireball erupted, the hole was already cut, but hidden behind the mask layer.

The CGI plane enters the frame a split second before the fireball erupts through the real hole (still hidden behind the mask layer).

The Plane layer is just another layer on top of the mask layer.

After the plane layer melts like butter into the mask layer of the undamaged tower (accompanied by drawn-on smoke), the mask layer is removed to reveal the fireball erupting through the hole.

Easy peasy.

For context, the movie Avatar, widely considered to be a breakthrough in realistic computer animation, came out eight years after 9/11.
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Old 31st December 2019, 11:18 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
I wouldn't put much stock in Steve's photo interpretation skills, which more often than not have proved to be hilariously misguided, to be polite.. My personal favorite is the one which Steve mistakes a ******* tree for blast damage:



https://i.imgur.com/F1Tmi1k.jpg

Good times, right Steve?

I remember. Like you, I am often wrong. Unlike you I admit it when I'm wrong. I am also often not wrong. I notice that makes you uncomfortable, which is why I assume you must reach for the solace of my past errors.
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Old 31st December 2019, 11:19 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
For context, the movie Avatar, widely considered to be a breakthrough in realistic computer animation, came out eight years after 9/11.
A totally different animal compared to the old school layering they used in 2001.
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Old 1st January 2020, 12:07 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
A totally different animal compared to the old school layering they used in 2001.
The footage was on the news within a four hours of the crash. The CGI back then took weeks for workable images. And any film tech can take that footage and see it is altered...which this footage is not.
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Old 1st January 2020, 12:09 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Well yes, that's how wings work: thin at the tips and getting wider toward the body as needed for avionics. Avionics is the gadgetry inside the wings that help the plane fly. We stopped using magical elves after WWI.
Not only do the wings on an airliner like the 767-200 become wider longitudinally as you get closer to the fuselage, they also get "thicker" as the chord increases close to the fuselage. The inner parts of the wings are also more heavily constructed as they they are built to take the major strains.

1. The strain of the engine mounts. When jet engines are running at full power for takeoff, the amount of force exerted by the thrust of the engine against the wing is enormous, and

2, The strain of the the main undercarriage. This needs to be built strong enough to withstand impact of the whole 120,000 kg weight of the aircraft as the wheels touch the ground with a horizontal speed of about 140 kts, and vertical speed of 120 fpm

There are also three flap tracks in each wing (the 4th flap track is right against the fuselage)
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Old 1st January 2020, 12:11 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
The footage was on the news within a four hours of the crash. The CGI back then took weeks for workable images. And any film tech can take that footage and see it is altered...which this footage is not.
Please. The video layering would be child's play for a pro.
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Old 1st January 2020, 12:12 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Not only do the wings on an airliner like the 767-200 become wider longitudinally as you get closer to the fuselage, they also get "thicker" as the chord increases close to the fuselage. The inner parts of the wings are also more heavily constructed as they they are built to take the major strains.

1. The strain of the engine mounts. When jet engines are running at full power for takeoff, the amount of force exerted by the thrust of the engine against the wing is enormous, and

2, The strain of the the main undercarriage. This needs to be built strong enough to withstand impact of the whole 120,000 kg weight of the aircraft as the wheels touch the ground with a horizontal speed of about 140 kts, and vertical speed of 120 fpm

There are also three flap tracks in each wing (the 4th flap track is right against the fuselage)

3. And when they collide with steel buildings, they take a hard right turn.
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Old 1st January 2020, 12:20 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
3. And when they collide with steel buildings, they take a hard right turn.
What are "they"?
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Old 1st January 2020, 12:29 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
Please. The video layering would be child's play for a pro.
They would have to have done all this CGI layering live... in real time... while the world watched.

I was thousands of miles away in NZ watching the breaking news on CNN when I saw the second plane hit the South Tower. People in the streets of NY saw it at the same time I did - how do you explain this?
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Old 1st January 2020, 12:38 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
Unlike you I admit it when I'm wrong.
Please show me the error of my ways.
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Old 1st January 2020, 12:39 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
They would have to have done all this CGI layering live... in real time... while the world watched.

I was thousands of miles away in NZ watching the breaking news on CNN when I saw the second plane hit the South Tower. People in the streets of NY saw it at the same time I did - how do you explain this?
The OP is not looking for any explanations. He KNOWS what happened and nobody can take it from him. Maybe one day some progress in the mental medicine will help him... We are all wasting our time on this thread.
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Old 1st January 2020, 02:54 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
I already did. The wingtip image shown is much more massive than the flimsy aluminum sheeting at the far left, but this massive wingtip couldn't even sever the aluminum sheeting at the far left. It was only big enough and massive enough to "pinch" the aluminum sheeting.
Wrong. No it's not. You tripped over the doormat on the way out the door right there.

Just because a 767 wing looks consistently rugged from root to tip does not mean it is. Wing strength varies significantly along its length, and also depends on the fixtures it has connected and that it contains.

The inner wing is very strong and rigid - it will carry the load of the aircraft as it lands. But the outer wing is quite flexible and contains only fuel tanks and some flap running gear.

Aircraft wingtips for the 767 of 2001 were quite light construction, and were easily replaceable. They contained only wiring and navigation lights and aerials, and bolted onto the end of the main wing frame. They contained no load-bearing frame themselves. Their prime purpose was to cover off the end of the wing and make it somewhat aerodynamic.

But why am I telling you this? You aren't going to listen.
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