ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Coronavirus , diseases

Closed Thread
Old 4th February 2020, 06:09 AM   #561
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 18,321
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Not even any indication if the coronavirus is reponsble for the people falling down.
But,yeah, the Chinese Government is not a source I would trust very much.
They could be falling down for many reasons. Epilepsy for one. Used to be called the 'falling illness'.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ogonblick i sander,
vilken trost vad an som kommer pa! ~ L Sandell
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 06:16 AM   #562
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 18,321
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Hell yeah, let the xenophobia flow, boys!

I'm pretty sure you are both American, and I'd trust Xi further than I'd trust your human mutation you have as president right now. I ask again, how do you think USA would respond to two states being cut off by armed guards.

If anything, you should be thanking your lucky stars this is happening in China - so far.

"Woo, some people aren't being seen at the hospital!!111!!"
"Woo, there are problems!!11!"

Right now, China has 2788 patients listed as critical.

Then ask yourself how USA, or any other damned country, would handle that in their over-loaded and under-staffed hospital systems. (The sub-question of which ones are insured is hardly even relevant)

They fumbled the ball at the start, but right now, China should be being praised for doing such an amazing job. They are screening people trying to leave the goddamned place. I don't even need to ask you how that would go down in the land of the free and home of the cowards brave.

Criticism of China right now is pure racist baloney.
|I agree. Given the constraints (massive population and many London-sized cities in most regions) it has acted impressively and responsibly. It shared the genome sequence with he global scientific community immediately. It has invited US scientist to come and help them develop a vaccine. It built a thousand-bed hospital from scratch within ten days. It stopped residents of Wuhan form travelling outside the region and stopped public transport.

What more could it have done.

Yes, it erred in not taking initial reports seriously and even threatened docotrs who raised the alarm with legal action but apart from that it is perfectly 'trustworthy'.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ogonblick i sander,
vilken trost vad an som kommer pa! ~ L Sandell
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 06:30 AM   #563
Dr.Sid
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic
Posts: 2,461
No communist ever is trustworthy. It's only question of what we don't know yet. But sure, at least they are trying to be open.
Dr.Sid is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 07:24 AM   #564
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 13,696
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Look, the CCP does have an interest in not exporting the disease. So itís not unreasonable to think they will try to prevent that, which is good. But they also have an interest in under-reporting the numbers. Why on earth do you think they wouldnít?
Underreporting could prevent other nations from taking actions that would prevent the export of the disease, which as you agree would go against Chinese interests.

There may be motivations to underreport but there are also motivations for honest reporting of the numbers. I don't know where the balance lies, but at the moment my guess is that the numbers aren't outrageously underreported (whether there are a lot of unknown cases is a different question). That's only a guess though.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 08:22 AM   #565
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 45,875
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Underreporting could prevent other nations from taking actions that would prevent the export of the disease, which as you agree would go against Chinese interests.

There may be motivations to underreport but there are also motivations for honest reporting of the numbers. I don't know where the balance lies, but at the moment my guess is that the numbers aren't outrageously underreported (whether there are a lot of unknown cases is a different question). That's only a guess though.
And that's the problem, we can only guess. Because it's a communist dictatorship, there's really no way to double-check the official numbers.

If the numbers are being under-reported, but they're being under-reported on both the infection and death side to equal degrees, then the effect is basically just like a time lag: the spread of the disease is further along than we're being told, but the disease itself could be portrayed accurately. The more frightening possibility, which I don't have any reason to believe is true but can't discount either (because commies), is that the death toll is being disproportionately understated, so that the chances of dying from an infection are higher than the official numbers suggest. It's also logically possible (but I don't find plausible) that the severity of the disease is being overstated by under-reporting infections more than they under-report deaths.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 08:40 AM   #566
Dr.Sid
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic
Posts: 2,461
One of the things I heard is if you die before tested, you are not tested. Things like that might skew the numbers, but not radically I think.
Dr.Sid is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 08:43 AM   #567
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 26,986
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I disagree and pretty well every criticism and CT is just racism wrapped in a thin veneer of "what ifs".
Rubbish! Don't start playing the race card with no evidence.

In fact, earlier in this thread you were not only criticizing China's response, the way Chinese people eat, and your suspicions that the disease was being under-reported, you also made a few comments that uncharitable people may think are a bit racist such as your concerns about Chinese people in your son's schools.

I say "uncharitable" because I am not personally making the allegation of racism towards you, just pointing out that you should put those rocks down when you live in a greenhouse.

The Chinese government is a dictatorship. I know many Chinese people who will say the same thing about their own government (very quietly of course, because...well, the Chinese government is a dictatorship).

Of course, as with the old joke, there is something China and the United States have in common. In the United States, people can criticize their government openly and mock the president. In China, people can also criticize the US government and mock the US president.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 09:08 AM   #568
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,889
I went to the pharmacy on Sunday to pick up some prescriptions. They had a sign prominently displayed that said they were sold out of masks. The interesting bit is that I have not seen anyone wearing masks in this area. Maybe someone is speculating and they will hit the streets at exorbitant prices if a case is discovered here.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 10:06 AM   #569
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 21,847
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Video of people falling over in the streets has been making the rounds. I've seen it.
And have been debunked. No-one with a quarter working brain takes such drivel seriously.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 10:08 AM   #570
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 45,875
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
And have been debunked. No-one with a quarter working brain takes such drivel seriously.
The part of my post you cut makes clear that the video of people falling over isn't significant regardless of any debunking.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 10:34 AM   #571
Capsid
Graduate Poster
 
Capsid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,650
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Perhaps you are the one that is ignorant and should look up stuff. Coronavirus is picornavirus like. Picornavruses are named thus because they are small. Try not to be rude in future.

Both are positive sense single stranded RNA viruses. But they are distinguished readily by the presence of an envelope glycoprotein and not considered at all similar.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Capsid is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 11:39 AM   #572
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 47,891
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
China is a communist dictatorship. That isnít racist baloney. And I said nothing about whether the quarantine was the right move or not, I said that you canít trust them to tell the truth. That too has nothing to do with race. Itís possible they are taking all the right actions but still lying about the infection numbers. Or maybe they are telling the truth, but how would we know? Because itís a dictatorship, there are no independent sources of reliable information about this.

I wouldnít trust the North Korean government at all, but the South Korean government is fairly honest (and I donít rate my own any higher than that). What separates North Korea from South Korea? Not race, but one being a dictatorship and one being a democracy. If you donít understand how that influences the honesty of a government, then youíre an idiot.

And lastly, your Trump derangement has blinded you to the fact that in a situation like this, the person at the top isnít who matters most. Itís the institutions on the ground and the local politicians that really matter the most. And given that we already know the local Chinese politicians lied, why are you trying to act like China is trustworthy? Again, this has nothing to do with race, though you seem to be incapable of thinking in any different terms.

China is a dictatorship, but calling it communist at this point is ridiculous.
There are CINO..Communist In Name Only. In economics, they wen capitialist a long time ago.
I agree with most of what you say, they are not to be trusted, just don't call them Communist...it is just not a accurate label.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 11:40 AM   #573
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 47,891
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
And have been debunked. No-one with a quarter working brain takes such drivel seriously.
This, China fudging the number I can buy, but no way could they could cover up something like people falling dead in the streets.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 11:42 AM   #574
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 47,891
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Rubbish! Don't start playing the race card with no evidence.

In fact, earlier in this thread you were not only criticizing China's response, the way Chinese people eat, and your suspicions that the disease was being under-reported, you also made a few comments that uncharitable people may think are a bit racist such as your concerns about Chinese people in your son's schools.

I say "uncharitable" because I am not personally making the allegation of racism towards you, just pointing out that you should put those rocks down when you live in a greenhouse.

The Chinese government is a dictatorship. I know many Chinese people who will say the same thing about their own government (very quietly of course, because...well, the Chinese government is a dictatorship).

Of course, as with the old joke, there is something China and the United States have in common. In the United States, people can criticize their government openly and mock the president. In China, people can also criticize the US government and mock the US president.
THIS.
I agree there has been some xenophobic crap going on, but to distrust A dictorial government is not xenophobic, but common sense. I would mistrust the Caucasian Russian Government in the same situation. Dictatorships have no hesistation about lying.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 11:45 AM   #575
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 47,891
Surprise. Somebody who has a long established Dislike of the US likes the Chinese dictatorship better.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 11:47 AM   #576
Dr.Sid
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic
Posts: 2,461
Well there is at least one well documented case of person falling dead on the street, and medical personnel expects it is Wuhan virus.

https://correspondent.afp.com/life-time-coronavirus

Around 80% of the page.
Dr.Sid is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 11:51 AM   #577
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,889
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
THIS.
I agree there has been some xenophobic crap going on, but to distrust A dictorial government is not xenophobic, but common sense. I would mistrust the Caucasian Russian Government in the same situation. Dictatorships have no hesistation about lying.
Substitute democratic governments for dictatorships and the statement is equally true.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 12:04 PM   #578
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 45,875
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Substitute democratic governments for dictatorships and the statement is equally true.
Even supposing it is, there remains a critical difference: democratic governments cannot stop alternate channels of information flow like dictatorships can. So it's much easier to discover lies from democratic governments than from dictatorships. That helps get the truth out even when democratic governments do lie, but it also can lead to democratic governments telling the truth even when they would like to lie because they know they can't hide the truth.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 12:05 PM   #579
Dr.Sid
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic
Posts: 2,461
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Substitute democratic governments for dictatorships and the statement is equally true.
It's really no difference, as far as governments go, indeed. The difference is free press. All the numbers we get from China are from China Health Committee. There is no other source. You can't just go to a hospital, and start asking questions. Internet is also heavily limited and what's left is well monitored.
Dr.Sid is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 12:09 PM   #580
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 45,875
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
China is a dictatorship, but calling it communist at this point is ridiculous.
There are CINO..Communist In Name Only. In economics, they wen capitialist a long time ago.
I agree with most of what you say, they are not to be trusted, just don't call them Communist...it is just not a accurate label.
I think the party structure still earns them that label, but it's really not important in the current context, the dictatorship part suffices for my point. It's essentially a semantic disagreement, and those are the most boring kind.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 12:15 PM   #581
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 80,033
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I see no where your claim is backed up in that link. You'll need to point to the place you are getting that number.
__________________
Trump Lied, People Died What color hat should I order with that logo? I think red on black.

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 12:17 PM   #582
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 80,033
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
By the way, I don't think I mentioned the latest news I have from here, which is that we've been told to stay closed until Feb 29. I think this applies to schools as well.

Went out for a walk today. Still very quiet in the streets.
How are people getting food? Are utility employees still going to work?
__________________
Trump Lied, People Died What color hat should I order with that logo? I think red on black.

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 12:18 PM   #583
Dr.Sid
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic
Posts: 2,461
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I see no where your claim is backed up in that link. You'll need to point to the place you are getting that number.
This table, column Serious. 5th if I count correctly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeli...ase_statistics
Dr.Sid is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 12:19 PM   #584
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 45,875
Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Well there is at least one well documented case of person falling dead on the street, and medical personnel expects it is Wuhan virus.

https://correspondent.afp.com/life-time-coronavirus

Around 80% of the page.
It could also easily be something else, like a heart attack. It's not like people stop dying of other causes. But even if it was, the fact that he collapsed in the street rather than receiving treatment at a hospital could still be due to the overloading of the medical system or even just the transportation system because of the virus.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 12:22 PM   #585
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 45,875
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
By the way, I don't think I mentioned the latest news I have from here, which is that we've been told to stay closed until Feb 29. I think this applies to schools as well.

Went out for a walk today. Still very quiet in the streets.
I mentioned upthread that I had been scheduled to travel to China, originally it was going to be this week. I would have been flying in to Shanghai (but staying in XiHu). That's been put on hold indefinitely.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 12:30 PM   #586
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 80,033
Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
This table, column Serious. 5th if I count correctly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeli...ase_statistics
TA said "Right now, China has 2788 patients listed as critical."

There is no such data on that Wiki page, or anywhere else for that matter because the number is wrong.
__________________
Trump Lied, People Died What color hat should I order with that logo? I think red on black.

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 12:48 PM   #587
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 45,875
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
TA said "Right now, China has 2788 patients listed as critical."

There is no such data on that Wiki page, or anywhere else for that matter because the number is wrong.
The Wiki page says "Serious" not "critical", but the 2788 number did come from that link.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 01:32 PM   #588
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 24,708
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
There is no such data on that Wiki page, or anywhere else for that matter because the number is wrong.
Really? https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

I guess your sources are better than theirs, which seem fairly well researched.

"Critical", "serious", take your pick. It looks to me, with a death rate of over 40% of those patients, I'm pretty happy with critical.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 01:35 PM   #589
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 24,708
Meanwhile, the WHO has stated this is not a global pandemic right now. https://thehill.com/changing-america...t-yet-pandemic

Again, solely thanks to China.

I do not believe any other country could have, or would have, taken the measures China has to date.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 01:37 PM   #590
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,889
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Meanwhile, the WHO has stated this is not a global pandemic right now. https://thehill.com/changing-america...t-yet-pandemic

Again, solely thanks to China.

I do not believe any other country could have, or would have, taken the measures China has to date.
I agree.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 01:41 PM   #591
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 24,708
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
I went to the pharmacy on Sunday to pick up some prescriptions. They had a sign prominently displayed that said they were sold out of masks. The interesting bit is that I have not seen anyone wearing masks in this area. Maybe someone is speculating and they will hit the streets at exorbitant prices if a case is discovered here.
Sound idea. I went and checked NZ prices and it looks like people are already gouging on them. Online prices seem to be 50-100% higher than store prices - but there aren't any in stores.

And that's with no cases in the country so far.

I know of two kids who are being kept away from school as a result of parental fear about the disease. Both are Chinese families who haven't been anywhere near China.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 01:57 PM   #592
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 42,881
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Hell yeah, let the xenophobia flow, boys!

I'm pretty sure you are both American, and I'd trust Xi further than I'd trust your human mutation you have as president right now. I ask again, how do you think USA would respond to two states being cut off by armed guards.

If anything, you should be thanking your lucky stars this is happening in China - so far.

[bigoted ranting snipped]
This is the third major zoonotic outbreak in China in the past 20 years.

Ironically, your post is probably the most xenophobic sentiment expressed so far.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 02:07 PM   #593
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 80,033
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Really? https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

I guess your sources are better than theirs, which seem fairly well researched.

"Critical", "serious", take your pick. It looks to me, with a death rate of over 40% of those patients, I'm pretty happy with critical.
Like pulling teeth:
Quote:
20,717
of which 2,792 (13%)
in critical condition
How can you tell when they don't say where their data is from?
When their data doesn't match other sources?
When they don't even say where those people are?

And, most importantly that has to be a cumulative number given the 20,000 is and it looks like they just used 13% of that number rather than actually looking at current cases in critical care, which is what you claimed.
__________________
Trump Lied, People Died What color hat should I order with that logo? I think red on black.

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 4th February 2020 at 02:08 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 02:18 PM   #594
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 42,881
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Meanwhile, the WHO has stated this is not a global pandemic right now. https://thehill.com/changing-america...t-yet-pandemic

Again, solely thanks to China.

I do not believe any other country could have, or would have, taken the measures China has to date.
By some strange coincidence, the vast majority of countries that could do something like this don't need to.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 02:41 PM   #595
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 16,592
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Perhaps you are the one that is ignorant and should look up stuff. Coronavirus is picornavirus like. Picornavruses are named thus because they are small. Try not to be rude in future.
Picornavirus are named because they are small RNA-genome viruses - it's in the name. Their virions are are much smaller than those of the average coronavirus but so are their RNA genomes. This is unimportant, in fact, unless one is curious as to the naming: it has nothing to do with how picoviruses are related to other viruses (Herpesvirus are named after the Greek term for crawling or creeping, but they don't actually crawl). Qbeta viruses are also very small capsid/small RNA genome viruses; nonetheless they infect bacteria and not mammals and they are not related to picornavirus in any way.

Again: coronaviruses are not picornavirus like in any way. You may be confused because under the so-called "Baltimore scheme" they are both called "class IV" but this refers to all viruses with + strand RNA genomes. But this scheme is a only a conceptual way to help people organize different viruses schematically in their head; it does not organize them by their biological relatedness. And there are many other unrelated virus in class IV. This has been explained upthread. The picornavirus and coronavirus genomes are organized in completely different ways. Their virions are very different in structure, size, and appearance. There is no sequence relatedness between their genomes. Coronaviruses are not picornavirus-like.

As to me being ignorant and should look up stuff: I trained as a virologist and was a virologist working with many different viruses for many decades. I still work with one particular virus. I've taught virology classes. Yet rather than depend on my memory I do continue to look up stuff in virology books and on line. I did so prior to responding to your post.

As to being rude: it is not rude to try to correct mis-information and, if someone continues to insist on an incorrect fact despite honest attempts to correct them, to suggest they look it up. In fact people pay me to do this. I not only do research but I also teach at my university: my very job is to provide facts and to correct misunderstandings and most of my students appreciate learning the truth rather than continue in error.

Last edited by Giordano; 4th February 2020 at 02:44 PM.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 02:45 PM   #596
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 25,519
One thing I do not understand. A number of people have left China with the disease, yet hardly anyone (or maybe no one) has caught it from these people. If it is an infectious disease some people on the plane and airport should have got it. But they do not appear to have done so. So what is happening?

One possibility is that they were wearing masks which prevented any further spread. If that is enough then the disease should stop spreading in China. This should have already happened.
__________________
This signature is for rent.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 03:08 PM   #597
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 16,592
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
One thing I do not understand. A number of people have left China with the disease, yet hardly anyone (or maybe no one) has caught it from these people. If it is an infectious disease some people on the plane and airport should have got it. But they do not appear to have done so. So what is happening?

One possibility is that they were wearing masks which prevented any further spread. If that is enough then the disease should stop spreading in China. This should have already happened.
In may cases the "evacuees" are wearing masks. The flight crews too. Plus washing hands, etc.

There is some evidence that the rate of new infections in China is slowing, but the numbers are soft given the intensity of the situation in that country. The health care system is just so overburdened it is difficult to judge.

I have found it interesting that flying nationals out of China to their home countries is an evacuation and is approved, even arranged by their native countries, whereas banning Chinese citizens from traveling in the same way is a necessary quarantine. I understand the political differences, but medically the risk per person is the same.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 03:13 PM   #598
Planigale
Illuminator
 
Planigale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,769
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Picornavirus are named because they are small RNA-genome viruses - it's in the name. Their virions are are much smaller than those of the average coronavirus but so are their RNA genomes. This is unimportant, in fact, unless one is curious as to the naming: it has nothing to do with how picoviruses are related to other viruses (Herpesvirus are named after the Greek term for crawling or creeping, but they don't actually crawl). Qbeta viruses are also very small capsid/small RNA genome viruses; nonetheless they infect bacteria and not mammals and they are not related to picornavirus in any way.

Again: coronaviruses are not picornavirus like in any way. You may be confused because under the so-called "Baltimore scheme" they are both called "class IV" but this refers to all viruses with + strand RNA genomes. But this scheme is a only a conceptual way to help people organize different viruses schematically in their head; it does not organize them by their biological relatedness. And there are many other unrelated virus in class IV. This has been explained upthread. The picornavirus and coronavirus genomes are organized in completely different ways. Their virions are very different in structure, size, and appearance. There is no sequence relatedness between their genomes. Coronaviruses are not picornavirus-like.

As to me being ignorant and should look up stuff: I trained as a virologist and was a virologist working with many different viruses for many decades. I still work with one particular virus. I've taught virology classes. Yet rather than depend on my memory I do continue to look up stuff in virology books and on line. I did so prior to responding to your post.

As to being rude: it is not rude to try to correct mis-information and, if someone continues to insist on an incorrect fact despite honest attempts to correct them, to suggest they look it up. In fact people pay me to do this. I not only do research but I also teach at my university: my very job is to provide facts and to correct misunderstandings and most of my students appreciate learning the truth rather than continue in error.
Vixen, my credentials may not be as good as Giordano's but I did intern at a national virology centre, when multiple people with technical expertise in the subject tell you that you are wrong, just accept it. Pico RNA viruses and coronaviruses are not the same thing.

PS DNA is not a protein and women do not have two Y chromosomes!
Planigale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 03:14 PM   #599
Dr.Sid
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic
Posts: 2,461
There are new cases outside Chine, but at much slower rate. The amount of countermeasures compared to amount of affected is quite different though.
Dr.Sid is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 4th February 2020, 03:20 PM   #600
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 80,033
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
One thing I do not understand. A number of people have left China with the disease, yet hardly anyone (or maybe no one) has caught it from these people. If it is an infectious disease some people on the plane and airport should have got it. But they do not appear to have done so. So what is happening?

One possibility is that they were wearing masks which prevented any further spread. If that is enough then the disease should stop spreading in China. This should have already happened.
These people are traveling to Western countries with proper public health infrastructure and isolation.

When a few more cases spread to India, some African countries, and areas of the world where wars are raging, you will see spread like we are seeing in China.

It may already be happening and going undetected.
__________________
Trump Lied, People Died What color hat should I order with that logo? I think red on black.

Space Force.
Because feeding poor people is socialism.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:19 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.