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Old 27th February 2020, 09:31 PM   #1
d4m10n
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Student protest at University of Oklahoma

https://oklahoman.com/article/565599...ion-of-provost

Headline seems a bit wonky to me, but what do you guys/gals think about the student demands?

(I found this of particular interest b/c of the other thread about a student multicultural center and b/c I'm supporting a current undergrad at this school.)
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Old 27th February 2020, 09:38 PM   #2
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Anyone who doesn't like Popeyes Chicken needs their head examined.
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Old 27th February 2020, 09:48 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
https://oklahoman.com/article/565599...ion-of-provost

Headline seems a bit wonky to me, but what do you guys/gals think about the student demands?

(I found this of particular interest b/c of the other thread about a student multicultural center and b/c I'm supporting a current undergrad at this school.)
It sounds like they were discussing ideas for what they were wanting, and one of them decided that being hungry they wanted Popeyes and then someone else added it to the list of demands.
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Old 27th February 2020, 09:57 PM   #4
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Anyone who doesn't like Popeyes Chicken needs their head examined.
No way I'm about to disagree with this.

We had KFC tonight and I was thinking how much better it coulda been.
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Old 27th February 2020, 10:02 PM   #5
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The BERT. They actually have a Black Emergency Response Team, threatening a hunger strike if they don't get a Popeyes. I love my country
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Old 27th February 2020, 10:15 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
https://oklahoman.com/article/565599...ion-of-provost

Headline seems a bit wonky to me, but what do you guys/gals think about the student demands?

(I found this of particular interest b/c of the other thread about a student multicultural center and b/c I'm supporting a current undergrad at this school.)
You're really going to force me to actually follow the link to find out what the protest is about? How passive aggressive!! The humanity!!!

Honestly, is it a joke? I mean, they wouldn't be having a hunger strike to demand a Popeye's restaurant on campus if it were a serious grievance.

Where I grew up, there was no Popeye's, only KFC, so maybe there's something I'm missing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popeyes

Can anyone enlighten me about the role of fried chicken in social justice?
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Old 27th February 2020, 10:19 PM   #7
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This is a ******* emergency, man!
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Old 27th February 2020, 10:23 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Can anyone enlighten me about the role of fried chicken in social justice?
Quality fried chicken is a universal olive branch.

Vegetarians and vegans can all blow a humpback whale.
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Old 27th February 2020, 10:26 PM   #9
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FWIW, here is what supposedly instigated all of this:

Quote:
Earlier this week, Kathleen Brosnan, an OU faculty member in the history department, said the n-word multiple times while reading from a 1920's U.S. Senate document.

Peter Gade, director of graduate studies for the Gaylord College of Journalism and Mass Communication and Gaylord Family endowed chair, used the N-word while comparing its usage to the phrase “OK, boomer.”

Earlier this week in a letter to the campus community, Harroz said faculty, staff and administrators will be required to complete a new diversity, equity, and inclusion training regimen.

"This training will address our implicit bias, it will force us to consider our words and actions and the implications that follow, and more," Harroz stated. "While students already engage in this type of training, for the first time our faculty and staff will be required to participate, as well."
The second one is obviously dumb, comparing "boomer" to the n-word. But they're making the faculty take sensitivity training, so that seems like a proportionate response to me.

The "new multicultural center that will feature meeting spaces for marginalized students, common areas, study rooms and a Popeyes restaurant" sounds like code for a racially segregated "safe space".
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Old 27th February 2020, 10:55 PM   #10
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If you can't handle someone reading a Senate document from the 1920s, you shouldn't be in college.
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Old 27th February 2020, 11:43 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
If you can't handle someone reading a Senate document from the 1920s, you shouldn't be in college.
^This^

It is utterly ridiculous that people are allowing themselves to be traumatized by a word (or more likely playing at being traumatized for some sort of personal benefit) no matter what the context.
It is a word. It has no power unless you personally give it power over you.
Fer cryin' out loud - are we all in the Dune Universe where The Voice is not reserved for the Bene Gesserit?
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Old 28th February 2020, 02:17 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
^This^

It is utterly ridiculous that people are allowing themselves to be traumatized by a word (or more likely playing at being traumatized for some sort of personal benefit) no matter what the context.
It is a word. It has no power unless you personally give it power over you.
Fer cryin' out loud - are we all in the Dune Universe where The Voice is not reserved for the Bene Gesserit?
I suppose reading Huckleberry Finn in an American Literature class is out of the question now.
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Old 28th February 2020, 02:29 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
The second one is obviously dumb, comparing "boomer" to the n-word.
I hate this kind of reasoning. Comparisons are extremely useful for evaluating and responding appropriately to the world around us. Making the comparison isn't the same as claiming an identicality. Sometimes the comparison is useful precisely because it reveals important differences between the things being compared. Comparisons like this are exactly the kind of intellectual inquiry colleges should be encouraging and teaching to their students.

"******" is a racist slur. "Boomer" is an ageist slur. In this way, the two are quite similar. Anyone who takes offense at use of "******" should think very carefully about using "boomer". They should take the time to make the comparison, acknowledge the similarities, and come up with a rational explanation for why "boomer" is okay even though it has some important similarities with "******".

I think college is probably wasted on people who can't grasp the propriety of comparing the two words, and can't manage to reason their way through such a comparison to some useful conclusion.
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Old 28th February 2020, 02:31 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I suppose reading Huckleberry Finn in an American Literature class is out of the question now.
The obvious solution is to replace "******" with "Popeyes" throughout the canon.

"You know we don't serve Popeyes here!"

"I won't have no truck with a Popeyes-lover!"
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Old 28th February 2020, 02:41 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
If you can't handle someone reading a Senate document from the 1920s, you shouldn't be in college.
I've been having no end of trouble finding the original quote.

I'm around 80%-90% that the professor in question was quoting the profoundly racist senator James A. ReedWP from Missouri on his opposition to the League of Nations. I'll paste in a passage from an AP history textbook at this point and put my faith in the ISF autocensor bot:

Quote:
Wilson’s most extreme enemies in the Senate were a group of about sixteen “irreconcilables,” opposed to a treaty in any form. Some were isolationist progressives, such as Republicans Robert M. La Follette of Wisconsin and William Borah of Idaho, who opposed the League of Nations as steadfastly as they opposed American entry into the war. Others were racist xenophobes like Democrat James Reed of Missouri. He objected, he said, to submitting questions to a tribunal “on which a ****** from Liberia, a ****** from Honduras, a ****** from India, and an unlettered gentleman from Siam, each have votes equal to the great United States of America.”
Whether assigning this passage to students should be a sacking offense is left as an exercise to the forum.
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Old 28th February 2020, 02:45 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I suppose reading Huckleberry Finn in an American Literature class is out of the question now.
Has been for years.
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Old 28th February 2020, 02:45 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
FWIW, here is what supposedly instigated all of this:



The second one is obviously dumb, comparing "boomer" to the n-word. But they're making the faculty take sensitivity training, so that seems like a proportionate response to me.

The "new multicultural center that will feature meeting spaces for marginalized students, common areas, study rooms and a Popeyes restaurant" sounds like code for a racially segregated "safe space".
And we know how well sensitivity training usually works....
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Old 28th February 2020, 02:46 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I hate this kind of reasoning. Comparisons are extremely useful for evaluating and responding appropriately to the world around us. Making the comparison isn't the same as claiming an identicality. Sometimes the comparison is useful precisely because it reveals important differences between the things being compared. Comparisons like this are exactly the kind of intellectual inquiry colleges should be encouraging and teaching to their students.

"******" is a racist slur. "Boomer" is an ageist slur. In this way, the two are quite similar. Anyone who takes offense at use of "******" should think very carefully about using "boomer". They should take the time to make the comparison, acknowledge the similarities, and come up with a rational explanation for why "boomer" is okay even though it has some important similarities with "******".

I think college is probably wasted on people who can't grasp the propriety of comparing the two words, and can't manage to reason their way through such a comparison to some useful conclusion.
People who called black people the n word were murdering them with regularity during our time.

People who call people boomers are generally irritating old white people who hold dumb as **** views about politics and society.

The only similarity is that both are consider an "ist". Other than that, they're nothing alike. Conversation over.
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Old 28th February 2020, 02:46 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Has been for years.
Which shows how stupid people are, frankly, and how they missed the whole point of Twain's masterpiece.
Jim is constanly portrayed as the most intelligent character in the novel.
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Old 28th February 2020, 02:48 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"******" is a racist slur. "Boomer" is an ageist slur. In this way, the two are quite similar.
I call shennanigans. "Boomer" describes a set of values and attitudes as expressed by members of that generation. Not the same thing at all.
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Old 28th February 2020, 02:49 PM   #21
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I agree the N word is disgusting, but to condemn it ever being uttered, even in a quote to show how disgusting it is. is just plain stupid. Context,context,context.
But it's Oklahoma.What do you expect, common sense.
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Old 28th February 2020, 02:50 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Which shows how stupid people are, frankly, and how they missed the whole point of Twain's masterpiece.
Jim is constanly portrayed as the most intelligent character in the novel.
Preaching to the choir on this one, Dud...
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Old 28th February 2020, 02:51 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I agree the N word is disgusting, but to condemn it ever being uttered, even in a quote to show how disgusting it is. is just plain stupid. Context,context,context.
But it's Oklahoma.What do you expect, common sense.
What was the context? If it is said gratuitously then perhaps after the first few times it could have just been referred to rather than stated? I'll wait for you to explain the context to me.
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Old 28th February 2020, 02:59 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I agree the N word is disgusting, but to condemn it ever being uttered, even in a quote to show how disgusting it is. is just plain stupid. Context,context,context.
But it's Oklahoma.What do you expect, common sense.
Common sense says it's a word. Use it or don't use it. I'll get upset about those words when they also put words like "cracker", "honkie", "oreo", "bananna", "apple", et al also on the list.

Otherwise the Word Police need to sit down and shut the **** up. Actually, no, they just need to shut the **** up. I'm sick of having to look up what the approved and disapproved words are every day.
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Old 28th February 2020, 03:28 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The only similarity is that both are consider an "ist". Other than that, they're nothing alike. Conversation over.
The thing about analogies is that they only need the one aspect.

A hunting rifle is analogous to an atlatlWP inasmuch as they are both human-made artifacts which may be used to put meat on the table. One of them is vastly more powerful and accurate, but the analogy still works so long as you take care not to imply they are equally good at their intended purpose.

ETA: For the sake of clarification, any given slur can be used to dismiss someone from the conversation by invoking the genetic fallacyWP. "Ok, boomer" seems designed precisely for this purpose, but really any slur will do. Someone could dismiss James Clyburn's recent endorsement on grounds of his race, age, or sex, and all these dismissals would be equally irrational, though they may be profoundly unequal in other ways.
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Old 28th February 2020, 05:16 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Quality fried chicken is a universal olive branch.

Vegetarians and vegans can all blow a humpback whale.
I refuse to believe that vegans and vegetarians can't come up with a good excuse to do a little Popeye's now and then. ( Over and above the red beans and rice.. )
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Old 28th February 2020, 05:23 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I refuse to believe that vegans and vegetarians can't come up with a good excuse to do a little Popeye's now and then. ( Over and above the red beans and rice.. )

Remember "Junk Food Junkie?'


By the daytime I'm Mr Natural,
Just as Healthy as I can be,
But at night I'm a Junk Food Junkie,
Good Lord Have Pity On Me...
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

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Old 28th February 2020, 05:26 PM   #28
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Popeyes isn't junk food. Iced tea isn't either.
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Old 28th February 2020, 06:10 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Can anyone enlighten me about the role of fried chicken in social justice?
I'm still sure that the conversation went something like this...

"Okay everyone, what are we going to demand?"

"With all the staff dropping n-words, so hey, someone's head has to roll."

"Okay, fire the Provot. Good call. What else do we want?"

"You know a place that us minorities can meet without all them white folks would be nice."

"Okay, so safe spaces and a multicultural center, excellent ideas. Anyone else?"

"Dang I'm hungry, I wish we had a Popeyes."

"Hey great idea, let me note that down. Anyone else? No? Well let's go and get diner!"
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Old 28th February 2020, 06:22 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I'm still sure that the conversation went something like this...

"Okay everyone, what are we going to demand?"

"With all the staff dropping n-words, so hey, someone's head has to roll."

"Okay, fire the Provot. Good call. What else do we want?"

"You know a place that us minorities can meet without all them white folks would be nice."

"Okay, so safe spaces and a multicultural center, excellent ideas. Anyone else?"

"Dang I'm hungry, I wish we had a Popeyes."

"Hey great idea, let me note that down. Anyone else? No? Well let's go and get diner!"
The absolute state of black activism in America.
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Old 28th February 2020, 07:09 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
...it's Oklahoma.What do you expect, common sense.
Having lived here since 2001, I've yet to see Okies err on the side of social justice.
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Old 28th February 2020, 10:40 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The absolute state of black student activism in America.
FTFY
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Old 1st March 2020, 08:40 PM   #33
Puppycow
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I hate this kind of reasoning. Comparisons are extremely useful for evaluating and responding appropriately to the world around us. Making the comparison isn't the same as claiming an identicality. Sometimes the comparison is useful precisely because it reveals important differences between the things being compared. Comparisons like this are exactly the kind of intellectual inquiry colleges should be encouraging and teaching to their students.

"******" is a racist slur. "Boomer" is an ageist slur. In this way, the two are quite similar. Anyone who takes offense at use of "******" should think very carefully about using "boomer". They should take the time to make the comparison, acknowledge the similarities, and come up with a rational explanation for why "boomer" is okay even though it has some important similarities with "******".

I think college is probably wasted on people who can't grasp the propriety of comparing the two words, and can't manage to reason their way through such a comparison to some useful conclusion.
"Boomer" is not an ageist slur. At least not prior to 2019. It is simply shorthand for baby boomer.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/boomer

ETA: just for full context of what the professor said:

http://www.oudaily.com/news/ou-gaylo...f7ab99bc3.html

Quote:
Gade was discussing the changes in journalism related to technology and social media and made the point that journalism should stick to its more traditional roots, according to multiple students in the class.

Gade then called on a student who said journalists have to keep up with the younger generations as they continue to change. Gade said the student’s comment was the equivalent of saying “OK, boomer” to him.

The class broke into light laughter but was interrupted by Gade’s next comment.

“Calling someone a boomer is like calling someone a n-----,” Gade said.

Molly Kruse, The Daily’s assistant culture editor, told Gade during the class that was not a word he should use, and he attempted to defend it and then changed the subject.

Some students left the classroom immediately afterward, and others left once class ended and Gade kept talking over the scheduled time for the class. Students present at that time said he told the class he was sorry if he offended anyone.
Apparently the student didn't even say "OK boomer". There's not a direct quote, but he said apparently words to the effect of "journalists have to keep up with the younger generations as they continue to change". The professor then likened that statement to saying "OK boomer" and then made the comparison with the n-word. So the analogy is even weaker given that the student in question did not utter the words being compared to the n-word.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 08:04 AM   #34
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I'd say there is a time and place for comparing the fallacy of dismissing someone's argument because of their age and dismissing someone's argument because of their skin color and dismissing someone's argument because of their sex and dismissing someone's argument because of any other accident of birth (all examples of circumstantial ad hominemWP) but given that extra context it doesn't sound like Gade was in a good place for it, or very careful about how he did it.

Professor Brosnan, by contrast, was pilloried and forced to apologize for attempting to teach an unvarnished history of American racism to her students.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 08:48 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
FTFY
LOL. Fair enough. I stand corrected.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 07:29 PM   #36
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So anyway, the protest seems to have been successful:

OU Evans Hall sit-in: BERT leadership says majority of demands met as three-day hunger strike, sit-in ends

Quote:
The Black Emergency Response Team has officially ended its three-day sit-in and hunger strike, saying they have reached an agreement with the administration and that most of its demands will be met.

In a statement from BERT co-directors Miles Francisco and Jamelia Reed, most of BERT’s “demands will be represented within the University strategic plan.”

“The Black Emergency Response Team began its sit-in of Evans Hall and hunger strike at 8 a.m. on Wednesday, February 26th, with the sentiment that we are fed up,” the statement read. “Fed up as Black students who have withstood racist incidents after racist incidents. We were ready for action. And we took it.”

After interim OU President Joseph Harroz put out a statement yesterday saying he would not meet BERT’s main demand — the resignation of OU Provost Kyle Harper — they created a new list of demands that will “ensure some accountability and checks on the Office of the Provost to bring about equity.”

According to the statement, two of the demands are “under the scope” of Harroz, which include creating a student advisory council to the provost’s office and “regularizing a 360 review process for senior executive leadership reporting to the office of president,” which will start with Harper.

OU's administration also committed to the establishment of a feasibility committee for a multicultural center, equity training for faculty and a course on diversity, according to the statement.

In the statement, BERT leaders said they are proud of the work that has been done, and they thanked Dean of Students David Surratt, Vice President of Diversity and Inclusion Belinda Higgs Hyppolite and interim OU President Joseph Harroz for working with them and listening to their demands.

“This is a win for us,” Francisco and Reed said in the statement. “This is a win for the people. But these are wins that we must continuously fight for. We must consistently put pressure on the administration to make it clear that we will not stay silent as long as marginalized students, staff, and faculty continue to be treated as less than human.”
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Old 2nd March 2020, 10:21 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And we know how well sensitivity training usually works....
Just in case anyone missed it, this point can't be emphasized enough. Sensitivity training doesn't work. Or rather, sensitivity training doesn't make people sensitive. But it actually succeeds at its real goal: giving power to administrators.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 10:37 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Just in case anyone missed it, this point can't be emphasized enough. Sensitivity training doesn't work. Or rather, sensitivity training doesn't make people sensitive. But it actually succeeds at its real goal: giving power to administrators.
The black protesters' "real goal" in unilaterally demanding sensitivity training for staff, was not "giving power to administrators".
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Old 3rd March 2020, 04:15 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
"Boomer" is not an ageist slur. At least not prior to 2019. It is simply shorthand for baby boomer.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/boomer

ETA: just for full context of what the professor said:

http://www.oudaily.com/news/ou-gaylo...f7ab99bc3.html



Apparently the student didn't even say "OK boomer". There's not a direct quote, but he said apparently words to the effect of "journalists have to keep up with the younger generations as they continue to change". The professor then likened that statement to saying "OK boomer" and then made the comparison with the n-word. So the analogy is even weaker given that the student in question did not utter the words being compared to the n-word.
Another issue: "OK Boomer" was, in part, a reaction to the various screeds online about how younger generations must be "immature" because they're taking on massive debt (to go to college, which they were told was profoundly important to do by every authority figure), not buying houses (when they're priced out of many areas entirely) and aren't having children (which is incredibly expensive nowadays - never mind the potential environmental catastrophe that such a child could end up living in). It's very much a "You guys gladly accepted help from older generations, yet you've made your American Dream all but impossible for us to achieve, and now you call us 'immature' for not climbing a cliff with no safety equipment, and refuse to even listen when we explain all this for the Nth time. Screw you, then."

Of course, it rather quickly devolved into simply dismissing a person based on their supposed age or thinking - I've seen it used against millennials enough times to say it's become a bit of a slur, although nowhere near "the N-word" in terms of a threat of violence.

ETA: this is also, in large part, why younger people are unimpressed by the cries of "Socialism!" from their enders. That word has been used so lazily that, to many younger people, it simply means "the exact same government help that Boomers got", which makes their elders look absurd when they start ranting about it. Not saying that those younger than me (the young end of "Gen X") have it all figured out, but they do have some very good points to make.

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Old 3rd March 2020, 10:57 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Which shows how stupid people are, frankly, and how they missed the whole point of Twain's masterpiece.
Jim is constanly portrayed as the most intelligent character in the novel.
IMO the reason racism is still such a big problem is that people have focused on the trappings not the underlying problem. The real issue is the belief that socio-economic status is a consequence of some biological feature of their “race”, but people who believe this seem to think that as long and you don’t say ***** you are not being racist.
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