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Old 15th February 2020, 01:22 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
No, the Magyars are the Hungarians. It’s the Hungarian word for the Hungarians.
That's as may be but its not as simple as that

"Magyar" is also the generic term for a group of Finno-Ugric humans who originated in the Urals and migrated westwards to settle in what is now Hungary about 1,200 years ago, but that does not mean that ALL Magyars ended up in Hungary. Their Y-DNA haplogroups are also found among Austrians and the Slovak peoples.

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/hungarians.html
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Old 15th February 2020, 09:59 AM   #162
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You know what's bugging me ?

Let me tell you what's bugging me

All this Scandinavian "pride" in their Viking heritage.

The Vikings were the first peoples to get on ships, sail to distant lands, sack their religious institutions and steal their scared items for profit. Then they colonized the place(s) This behavior emboldened other European nations to do the same thing centuries later.

IIRC, the Vikings actually tried to colonize the Americas but failed ( luckily ) giving the indigenous Americans a few more centuries of peaceful, blissful white people free living.
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Old 15th February 2020, 11:34 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
No, it's rightfully part of Russia, comradde!

Ya know what's as revealing as the reaction by certain people to the ad? The reaction of certain forum members to this thread!
NO, IT IS NOT PART OF RUSSIA. Bloody cheek!
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Old 15th February 2020, 11:40 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It gets complicated.
Finland is geographically part of Scandanavia, but the Finns, ethnically, are totally different from the other Scandinavian nations. Language..except for a few borrowed words,is totally different from Norweigian, Swedish, Danish, etc.
And they have the world's prettiest Prime Minister.....
Wrong. Scandinavia is a geographical term to deal with that peninsula that cuts off. Ethnically, Finns are pretty much homogenous to the Swedes at least in the west. However, 50% of Finnish males carry the N1 gene which is thought to come from the East. Very little in common with the Russians, who are Slavic, as is their language. The Scandinavian languages are Germanic like English and Dutch. Finnish is a Uralic language, so named as it is thought to originate from near the Ural mountains. However, it is a common mistake to assume language equals ethnicity. You can be born in a stable but it doesn't make you a horse.
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Old 15th February 2020, 11:49 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
That was deliberate. I was also going to choose the Finnish swastika as well, but thought it would be too obvious.
The Finnish swastika which was in use in the Finnish Air Force long before Hitler came along was simply an adopted rune by Count Von Rosen (_sp?) who happened to have seen it on a Swedish grave monument and adopted it as his family legend. The Air Force was originally private which is how his swastika got to be on the underside of the wings. The Finnish swastika was still in use until the mid-1940's. I guess they had to stop using it so as not to upset the Russians. Obituary/death announcements during that era appeared under the Finnish swastika rather than the Christian cross. My uncles, who were killed in the Continuation War have the swastika on their gravestones, in the war heroes part of the cemetery, as does the War Memorial found in every church yard.
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Old 15th February 2020, 11:55 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Finns are ethnically more closely related to Estonians than they are to the Swedish.
25% of the Estonian population are actually Russian. Shipped in during the Stalin era to russify it.
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Old 15th February 2020, 11:57 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Geographically, the Scandinavian peninsula consists of Norway, Sweden and a small part of Finland. Denmark is not a geographical part of Scandinavia.
Culturally, you could say that the Nordic Baltic Eight (Wikipedia) are a kind of sister nations. Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania were Danish for a couple of centuries in the Middle Ages, before they became Swedish and then Russian.
Iceland (Wikipedia) was liberated from the Danish hegemony in WW2.
Latvians and Lithuanians are considered Slavic.
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Old 15th February 2020, 11:57 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Wrong. Scandinavia is a geographical term to deal with that peninsula that cuts off. Ethnically, Finns are pretty much homogenous to the Swedes at least in the west. However, 50% of Finnish males carry the N1 gene which is thought to come from the East. Very little in common with the Russians, who are Slavic, as is their language. The Scandinavian languages are Germanic like English and Dutch. Finnish is a Uralic language, so named as it is thought to originate from near the Ural mountains. However, it is a common mistake to assume language equals ethnicity. You can be born in a stable but it doesn't make you a horse.
No, dudbalb not necessarily wrong.

https://lamoureurope.com/scandinavian-europe/
"Scandinavia is a region in Northern Europe, with strong historical, cultural, and linguistic ties. The term Scandinavia in local usage covers the three kingdoms of Denmark, Norway, and Sweden. The majority national languages of these three belong to the Scandinavian dialect continuum, and are mutually intelligible North Germanic languages. In English usage, Scandinavia also sometimes refers more narrowly to the Scandinavian Peninsula, or more broadly so as to include Finland, the Faroe Islands, and Iceland."
So both of your positions can be correct depending on where you were educated; it is NOT wrong to state that Finland is part of Scandinavia.
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Old 15th February 2020, 11:58 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And both Finns and Estonians seem to have split off from the Magyars (who became the Hungarians) at some point from simarliteis in the languages.
About 8000 years ago. There is now zero similarity apart from both being inflected.
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Old 15th February 2020, 12:15 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
About 8000 years ago. There is now zero similarity apart from both being inflected.
Wrong, it was not that long ago, more like 1,200-2,000 years. The early Magyars arrived in the land of Hungary from the east in the 9th century

Magyars, Estonians and Finns are all descended from the same Finno-Ugric branch of the Uralic family.
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Old 15th February 2020, 12:30 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Wrong, it was not that long ago, more like 1,200-2,000 years. The early Magyars arrived in the land of Hungary from the east in the 9th century

Magyars, Estonians and Finns are all descended from the same Finno-Ugric branch of the Uralic family.
Finns share zero DNA with Hungarians.
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Old 15th February 2020, 12:49 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Finns share zero DNA with Hungarians.
Err, wrong again

"Genes reveal traces of common recent demographic history for most of the Uralic-speaking populations"

https://genomebiology.biomedcentral....059-018-1522-1
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Old 15th February 2020, 01:10 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Err, wrong again

"Genes reveal traces of common recent demographic history for most of the Uralic-speaking populations"

https://genomebiology.biomedcentral....059-018-1522-1
Note the word, 'trace'. Fact is, over the centuries, Hungary has been invaded by various groups and tribes; plus it has adopted numerous loan words from Turkish and its surrounding mid-European neighbours that it bears zero resemblance to Finnish or Estonian, other than being inflected.

As I said language does not equate to ethnicity anyway. It'd be like my saying 'Americans are of British descent as they speak English', when of course, as you know the biggest group by far are the Germans, with 40% of American having that descent. So much for language telling you anything much.

In fact of the ancient Finno-Ugric group of languages, linguists have found only four words that have a common root in all. They are: Fish, swim, water, and living.

So, 'The living fish swims in the water' would be the only sentence that would be remotely similar to that group of language speakers.
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Old 15th February 2020, 01:16 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
No, Finland is not a part of Scandinavia. Finland is a Nordic country, which is a broader notion.

Scandinavia is limited to Denmark, Sweden and Norway. The Nordic countries are those, plus the countries that have been heavily influenced and controlled by the Scandinavian ones. Finland was an integral part of Sweden for centuries, so it qualifies as a Nordic country.
In fact, in the medieval ages, Turku-Åbo, the then Finnish capital, was the second most important town in Sweden. Vyborg (near St Petersburg) was also important.

Actually, it qualifies as Nordic as having the second most northerly capital in the world, after Rejkvik in Iceland. Its northerliness is not anything that has been conveyed to it by its Swedish neighbours.
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Old 15th February 2020, 01:22 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Note the word, 'trace'.
I did note it - a "trace" is an amount greater than zero. You said, and I quote "Finns share zero DNA with Hungarians". That statement was wrong, you just admitted it!

You will find that genome distribution is a lot more complex than you think, and making belligerent, blanket statements about things is not only ill-advised, but such statements will almost certainly turn out to be wrong.
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Old 15th February 2020, 01:39 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I did note it - a "trace" is an amount greater than zero. You said, and I quote "Finns share zero DNA with Hungarians". That statement was wrong, you just admitted it!

You will find that genome distribution is a lot more complex than you think, and making belligerent, blanket statements about things is not only ill-advised, but such statements will almost certainly turn out to be wrong.
Sorry if I was a bit impatient but it is a common misconception that language = ethnicity. Just because Hungarian and Finnish once broke off from a language group believed to have originated near the Urals it honestly doesn't mean they are related ethnically. Hungary is pretty far south in Europe and thus culturally is different simply due to different climate, different history, different migrations, different wars and invaders.

Finns do not feel any kinship with Hungarians or vice versa other than being joint Europeans and sharing a common language group.
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Old 16th February 2020, 06:50 AM   #177
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A little like the black Scandinavian in the ad with the Viking ancestors!


Quote:
genetically, Finns have more in common with, for example, the Dutch or Russians living in the area of Murom, to the east of Moscow, than with their linguistic relations, the Hungarians; more generally, genetic closeness clearly follows geographic distance more closely than linguistic distance.
Finns, genes and languages (Languages of the World, April 8, 2010)

The article contains other examples.

Swedish is one of the two official languages of Finland: Swedish Language in Finland
Swedish-speaking Finns are often much easier to understand for other Scandinavians than actual Swedes because their consonants tend to be pronounced much more clearly than (some) Swedes do. For this reason they usually make excellent travel guides when Scandinavians of different nationalities travel together.
When digital voice recognition became a thing, Finnish turned out to be particularly well-suited for this purpose because of the distinct consonants.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 16th February 2020, 06:57 AM   #178
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Quote:
SAS’ suspicions appear to be correct. While the backlash likely has multiple points of origin, the ad campaign has particularly incensed 4chan’s Pol message board, the politics-focused portion of the website that’s a known hub for fringe alt-righters and white nationalists. The commercial directly contradicts bigoted notions of white, European, and Nordic supremacy, which are core beliefs of the internet far-right. In response, Pol users have launched a coordinated campaign targeting the airline and the ad agency that made the video.
As is often the case on the Pol board, the rage is unequivocally racist. While 4chan is small compared to some other social media platforms, the site still brings in 27 million monthly users, according to its own metrics. And compared to other 4chan eruptions, the scope of the anti-SAS campaign is massive. Pol users have created more than a dozen independent threads to gripe about the ad, and many are highly active.
4Chan Trolls Target Scandinavian Airlines With Racist Harassment Campaign (Mother Jones, Feb. 13, 2020)

Any comments, Ziggurat and theprestige?!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th February 2020, 07:48 AM   #179
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Old 16th February 2020, 07:57 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Mostly I just think dann's idea that only Nazis could not like this ad is full of crap.
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Old 16th February 2020, 08:59 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
A little like the black Scandinavian in the ad with the Viking ancestors!





The article contains other examples.

Swedish is one of the two official languages of Finland: Swedish Language in Finland
Swedish-speaking Finns are often much easier to understand for other Scandinavians than actual Swedes because their consonants tend to be pronounced much more clearly than (some) Swedes do. For this reason they usually make excellent travel guides when Scandinavians of different nationalities travel together.
When digital voice recognition became a thing, Finnish turned out to be particularly well-suited for this purpose because of the distinct consonants.
But they talk bloody fast - like a rapid machine gun...!
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Old 16th February 2020, 10:43 AM   #182
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I think that it's just the many distinct consonants making it sound that way.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th February 2020, 11:43 AM   #183
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4Chan figures the Jews created the ad, specifically the black Viking to erase "white culture". Whatever that is.

Come to think of it, there's now reason why there couldn't have been black Vikings. The Romans were no strangers to blacks and after the Roman empire broke up they had to go somewhere.

Whether those blacks managed to stay racially segregated and not mix with the white Scandinavians for long enough so the black actor could legitimately claim Viking ancestry is an interesting subject.
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Old 16th February 2020, 12:10 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Sorry if I was a bit impatient but it is a common misconception that language = ethnicity. Just because Hungarian and Finnish once broke off from a language group believed to have originated near the Urals it honestly doesn't mean they are related ethnically. Hungary is pretty far south in Europe and thus culturally is different simply due to different climate, different history, different migrations, different wars and invaders.

Finns do not feel any kinship with Hungarians or vice versa other than being joint Europeans and sharing a common language group.
Well gee whizz.... isn't that just what dudalb said....
"...both Finns and Estonians seem to have split off from the Magyars (who became the Hungarians) at some point from similarities in the languages."
....and after ranting about how he was wrong....
"Wrong. Scandinavia is a geographical term to deal with that peninsula that cuts off. Ethnically, Finns are pretty much homogenous to the Swedes at least in the west. However, 50% of Finnish males carry the N1 gene which is thought to come from the East*. Very little in common with the Russians, who are Slavic, as is their language. The Scandinavian languages are Germanic like English and Dutch. Finnish is a Uralic language, so named as it is thought to originate from near the Ural mountains. However, it is a common mistake to assume language equals ethnicity. You can be born in a stable but it doesn't make you a horse."

.....you now agree with him!

*NOTE: It was you who brought up the DNA and the N1 gene. dudalb never mentioned DNA, he was talking about language.
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Old 16th February 2020, 12:13 PM   #185
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From questions regarding such on Quora:

Vikings encountered black people enough times to give them them the moniker blámaðr, literally blue men. The major encounters between the two seem to be interactions with the Moors, and Viking raids on various North African and Arabian cities. There also seems to be some possible minor occurrences of trading and undertaking pilgrimages to Jerusalem. However, there is no historical account of a blue man joining a Viking tribe. There is, however, a story of a chieftain's wife giving birth to dark-skinned twins, which upset the chieftain and resulted in the twins being given up and later taken back in after three years had passed.

Edit: Looking further, it seems there were a number of reports of dark-skinned Vikings from that era.
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Old 16th February 2020, 12:16 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by StillSleepy View Post
From questions regarding such on Quora:

Vikings encountered black people enough times to give them them the moniker blámaðr, literally blue men. The major encounters between the two seem to be interactions with the Moors, and Viking raids on various North African and Arabian cities. There also seems to be some possible minor occurrences of trading and undertaking pilgrimages to Jerusalem. However, there is no historical account of a blue man joining a Viking tribe. There is, however, a story of a chieftain's wife giving birth to dark-skinned twins, which upset the chieftain and resulted in the twins being given up and later taken back in after three years had passed.
They did capture slaves and took them back and we know that resulted in mixing. That's how they ended up with the reds heads and ginger beards.
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Old 16th February 2020, 12:19 PM   #187
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I thought Stout had already covered that, but it seems I mentally over-summarized his post.
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Old 16th February 2020, 12:26 PM   #188
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Also, it seems that the blue men name might have been invented post-Viking.
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Old 16th February 2020, 04:11 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Whether those blacks managed to stay racially segregated and not mix with the white Scandinavians for long enough so the black actor could legitimately claim Viking ancestry is an interesting subject.

It's extremely unlikely. A few years ago, Danish TV had a series about Danish descendants of black slaves from the Virgin Islands (Wikipedia). They look like this, and many of them were unaware that they had (fairly recent) black ancestors.
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Old 16th February 2020, 06:22 PM   #190
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The Vikings were complicated, and there were many factors to their society. They practised human sacrifice and slavery. They pillaged their way across Europe. But they also peacefully settled and traded in many places including the British Isles, France and Russia. The inhabitants of Iceland are directly descended from Viking settlers. They sailed extensively, from the North Sea to the North Atlantic and even to the Mediterranean, where they were mercenaries contracted to the Kings of Byzantium. We have extensive and detailed, if at times fanciful, histories in the form of the sagas. They buried their dead with artifacts, so we know what kinds of tools and weapons they used in their day-to-day lives. We know that they were meticulous in their personal grooming, as warriors have been found buried not only with swords and axes, but with combs and ear-spoons.
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Old 16th February 2020, 07:43 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The Vikings were complicated, and there were many factors to their society. They practised human sacrifice and slavery. They pillaged their way across Europe. But they also peacefully settled and traded in many places including the British Isles, France and Russia. The inhabitants of Iceland are directly descended from Viking settlers. They sailed extensively, from the North Sea to the North Atlantic and even to the Mediterranean, where they were mercenaries contracted to the Kings of Byzantium. We have extensive and detailed, if at times fanciful, histories in the form of the sagas. They buried their dead with artifacts, so we know what kinds of tools and weapons they used in their day-to-day lives. We know that they were meticulous in their personal grooming, as warriors have been found buried not only with swords and axes, but with combs and ear-spoons.
We also know that as a result of their settlement in Britain (especially in the north east of England), there are a number of "viking" words that have entered the English language, for example "beck" comes from the Norse word "bekkr" meaning a creek or a stream ("brook" probably also derives from the same word), and "window" from the old Norse "vindauga" meaning "wind-eye", which refers to the ability to see things approaching outside of your home while standing inside. Even speakers of Yorkshire dialects can, with some difficulty, hold a reasonable conversation with someone who speaks the western Norwegian dialect "Nynorsk", a language IIUC, that is mostly used in rural areas, but not "Bokmål" which is more widely used.
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Old 16th February 2020, 07:49 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
We also know that as a result of their settlement in Britain (especially in the north east of England), there are a number of "viking" words that have entered the English language, for example "beck" comes from the Norse word "bekkr" meaning a creek or a stream ("brook" probably also derives from the same word), and "window" from the old Norse "vindauga" meaning "wind-eye", which refers to the ability to see things approaching outside of your home while standing inside. Even speakers of Yorkshire dialects can, with some difficulty, hold a reasonable conversation with someone who speaks the western Norwegian dialect "Nynorsk", a language IIUC, that is mostly used in rural areas, but not "Bokmål" which is more widely used.
It's not just a few words, either. Since the Danelaw set the limit of Viking settlement in the north of England, many of the local dialects show very strong Nordic influence.

Furthermore, you can tell the social strata of word origins by looking at whether they derive from the Norse or the French. For example, farmers raise cows, but nobles eat beef.

English is a fascinating mishmash of other languages. It's surprising how well it has survived. Or perhaps it's survived precisely because of its mismashiness.
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Old 16th February 2020, 07:56 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
It's extremely unlikely. A few years ago, Danish TV had a series about Danish descendants of black slaves from the Virgin Islands (Wikipedia). They look like this, and many of them were unaware that they had (fairly recent) black ancestors.
Sounds like an interesting series. In all the documentaries on Vikings I've watched, I've never heard mention of a black Viking.
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Old 18th February 2020, 01:08 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The Vikings were complicated, and there were many factors to their society.
A fact that is generally true of human societies, and one which is perpetually lost on white supremacists and others obsessed with racial, ethnic, or nationalistic "purity".
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Old 18th February 2020, 05:41 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
A fact that is generally true of human societies, and one which is perpetually lost on white supremacists and others obsessed with racial, ethnic, or nationalistic "purity".
Humans have always had a tendency to stereotype those who are different from them.
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Old 19th February 2020, 07:59 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Sounds like an interesting series. In all the documentaries on Vikings I've watched, I've never heard mention of a black Viking.

It is an interesting series.
I also never heard of black Viking. My point was that if there were any, it was such a long time ago that even DNA tests for ancestry would probably have a hard time detecting any traces of them. That's not at all difficult to do with the (Danish) descendants of African slaves from the Virgin Islands, but many of them were still surprised to find out about it.

Fortunately, they seemed to find it interesting, unlike:
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Old 19th February 2020, 08:01 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by StillSleepy View Post
Also, it seems that the blue men name might have been invented post-Viking.

Yes, definitely, in some cases.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 19th February 2020, 08:08 AM   #198
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Excellent ad.
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Old 19th February 2020, 08:14 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
No, Finland is not a part of Scandinavia. Finland is a Nordic country, which is a broader notion.

Scandinavia is limited to Denmark, Sweden and Norway. The Nordic countries are those, plus the countries that have been heavily influenced and controlled by the Scandinavian ones. Finland was an integral part of Sweden for centuries, so it qualifies as a Nordic country.

And now the Scots consider joining us!
Skotland vil hellere være en del af Skandinavien
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 20th February 2020, 04:05 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The Vikings were complicated, and there were many factors to their society.
You know, just for the halibut I'm going to point out that Vikings weren't a society. Their society were the Norse. Vikings were the sailors and warriors of the Norse. It's like calling kinda like calling all Americans "Marines."
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