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Old 20th July 2018, 01:36 PM   #321
HansMustermann
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Japan was probably thinking "We beat them soundly in 1905, we'll do it again. ". Japan rarely considered inferior equipment to be a detriment to their inevitable success. "Fighting Spirit" more important than a tougher tank, better rifle, or, heck, regular rations.
Well, generally the Axis powers seemed to be the guys who could least afford to wage a war, but drank deep and greedily of their own Kool Aid about superior people and triumph of the will power and all. Germany even had a complete internal organizational chaos in the name of a pseudo-darwinist will to triumph, while Japan and Italy seem to have indeed grossly overestimated what they can do with their equipment and logistics. Among other things.

But in Japan's case it does bring me to an observation I made a long time ago, in a galaxy far a... err... just a long time ago. Namely that Japan didn't learn the same lessons in WW1 that the European countries learned. France, for example, had had the similar "elan" ideas in WW1, but learned fairly quickly that equipment matters too, after all. Japan seems to have missed that lesson, along with several other lessons.

It must also be said, though, that the Axis powers also didn't cooperate almost at all, unlike the Allies. The Americans for example benefited from British experience with convoys, the British used American tanks, there were common operations, etc. Japan essentially fought a separate war the whole time, and had close to no idea of what they should be paying more attention to, that Germany had learned already one way or the other.
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Old 20th July 2018, 01:46 PM   #322
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Maybe they just jumped over it.
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Old 20th July 2018, 02:06 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Well, generally the Axis powers seemed to be the guys who could least afford to wage a war, but drank deep and greedily of their own Kool Aid about superior people and triumph of the will power and all. Germany even had a complete internal organizational chaos in the name of a pseudo-darwinist will to triumph, while Japan and Italy seem to have indeed grossly overestimated what they can do with their equipment and logistics. Among other things.

But in Japan's case it does bring me to an observation I made a long time ago, in a galaxy far a... err... just a long time ago. Namely that Japan didn't learn the same lessons in WW1 that the European countries learned. France, for example, had had the similar "elan" ideas in WW1, but learned fairly quickly that equipment matters too, after all. Japan seems to have missed that lesson, along with several other lessons.

It must also be said, though, that the Axis powers also didn't cooperate almost at all, unlike the Allies. The Americans for example benefited from British experience with convoys, the British used American tanks, there were common operations, etc. Japan essentially fought a separate war the whole time, and had close to no idea of what they should be paying more attention to, that Germany had learned already one way or the other.
There was very little sharing of technology. Japan didn't have radar and only had crude sonar. Germany could have helped out.
Britain for example sent the designs and samples of the Cavity Magnetron and prototype Proximity Fuse to the USA to enable joint development. The designs for the Merlin Engine were also sent to the USA and Packard sent the designs of their all alloy V8 to the UK (Became the Rover V8 still in production in modified form until recently)
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Old 20th July 2018, 06:03 PM   #324
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Yeah, that's exactly right. The Axis guys in fact not only didn't share tech, but really didn't cooperate at all, and occasionally actually got in each other's way or indirectly harmed each other. It's like the three stooges with armies.
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Old 20th July 2018, 07:09 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
...Packard sent the designs of their all alloy V8 to the UK (Became the Rover V8 still in production in modified form until recently)
Uh, I don't think so. The Rover V8 came from General Motors and was used by Buick and Oldsmobile in the early '60's. And by Brabham in Formula 1, winning championships in 1966 and '67.
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Old 20th July 2018, 07:43 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
It must also be said, though, that the Axis powers also didn't cooperate almost at all, unlike the Allies. The Americans for example benefited from British experience with convoys, the British used American tanks, there were common operations, etc. Japan essentially fought a separate war the whole time, and had close to no idea of what they should be paying more attention to, that Germany had learned already one way or the other.
Heck the Canadians and the Americans created a combined battalion sized unit that functioned to a high level while the Axis could barely cooperate at the divisional level....
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Old 21st July 2018, 01:43 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Uh, I don't think so. The Rover V8 came from General Motors and was used by Buick and Oldsmobile in the early '60's. And by Brabham in Formula 1, winning championships in 1966 and '67.
Yes you are right, I was misremembering.
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Old 21st July 2018, 03:59 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Uh, I don't think so. The Rover V8 came from General Motors and was used by Buick and Oldsmobile in the early '60's. And by Brabham in Formula 1, winning championships in 1966 and '67.
Yes, the "Rover V8" began life as a Buick V8 in the late 50's early 60's in a line of small (by American standards) cars that had a short production life. After than GM was stuck with a fancy motor it didn't know what to do with. So naturally they sold it to the Brits and kept their old low-tech iron V8's. The Buick V8 then went on to power British cars and trucks for the next 40 years.

A good deal for Rover.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 08:55 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Heck the Canadians and the Americans created a combined battalion sized unit that functioned to a high level while the Axis could barely cooperate at the divisional level....
The Devil's Brigade. Although at 1,400 men thats pretty under-strength for a brigade.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_..._Service_Force
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Old 23rd July 2018, 11:37 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Heck the Canadians and the Americans created a combined battalion sized unit that functioned to a high level while the Axis could barely cooperate at the divisional level....
And even then, only if Rommel wasn't involved. He didn't DO cooperation
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Old 25th July 2018, 01:54 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
And even then, only if Rommel wasn't involved. He didn't DO cooperation
Yes, but at least he always subordinated tactical success to the wider strategic goals
(main source - other posts by you - but I think I might have misremembered )
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Old 25th July 2018, 10:15 PM   #332
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Actually, the other way around. He was good at tactical level, and even operational, but he had zero clue of strategic goals or logistics. Which kinda correlates to the last command level he was actually trained for, until his BFF Adolf made him a general. Which is, battalion level.

Edit: I might have been a bit harsh in singling out Rommel, though. The SS also didn't DO cooperation with anyone else. YOLO and remember the battle cry of our ancestors: "Leeeerroooyy Jenkins!"
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Old 26th July 2018, 12:11 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Actually, the other way around. He was good at tactical level, and even operational, but he had zero clue of strategic goals or logistics. Which kinda correlates to the last command level he was actually trained for, until his BFF Adolf made him a general. Which is, battalion level.

Edit: I might have been a bit harsh in singling out Rommel, though. The SS also didn't DO cooperation with anyone else. YOLO and remember the battle cry of our ancestors: "Leeeerroooyy Jenkins!"
Just in case somebody is unfamiliar with Leeroy Jenkins:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p.../LeeroyJenkins
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Old 26th July 2018, 01:50 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post

Thing is, though, the BT-5 had more than twice the hp/ton, better front armor, and a MUCH better gun. The optics were also better than what the Japanese had, ensuring a very good chance of hitting the Japanese well outside their own effective range, even though they were vastly inferior to the German ones. (Light transmission for example was crap until well after Barbarossa, due to lack of quality coatings on the lenses.)

.
Apart from the Germans, did anyone have coated optics in WW2 ? I've got a periscope sight from a Sherman here and it doesn't appear to have any optical coatings.
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Old 26th July 2018, 04:13 AM   #335
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I THINK the Soviets did, actually.
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Old 26th July 2018, 08:22 AM   #336
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Light transmission isn’t only about coatings, it’s also type of glass and lens/prism manufacture. Getting better quality transmitting glass is actually quite the industry.
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Old 26th July 2018, 10:02 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Yes, but at least he always subordinated tactical success to the wider strategic goals
(main source - other posts by you - but I think I might have misremembered )
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Actually, the other way around. He was good at tactical level, and even operational, but he had zero clue of strategic goals or logistics. Which kinda correlates to the last command level he was actually trained for, until his BFF Adolf made him a general. Which is, battalion level.

Edit: I might have been a bit harsh in singling out Rommel, though. The SS also didn't DO cooperation with anyone else. YOLO and remember the battle cry of our ancestors: "Leeeerroooyy Jenkins!"
Yes, that fell a bit flat; I thought that I'd signposted my sarcasm with my second paragraph. It would have been quite an achievement to have taken that message from your posts
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Old 26th July 2018, 11:23 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by Reactor drone View Post
Apart from the Germans, did anyone have coated optics in WW2 ? I've got a periscope sight from a Sherman here and it doesn't appear to have any optical coatings.
It depends on the optics. gun sights were coated as were binoculars and telescopes but vision blocks in tanks weren't.
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Old 26th July 2018, 11:47 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Yes, that fell a bit flat; I thought that I'd signposted my sarcasm with my second paragraph. It would have been quite an achievement to have taken that message from your posts
Well, I probably needed another coffee before my sarcasm detector starts
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Old 26th July 2018, 01:16 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Yes, that fell a bit flat; I thought that I'd signposted my sarcasm with my second paragraph. It would have been quite an achievement to have taken that message from your posts
Well, I couldn't decide which way to read your post. And started to doubt my memory...
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Old 26th July 2018, 01:22 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Well, I couldn't decide which way to read your post. And started to doubt my memory...
The trouble with the British liking for sarcasm played straight.

Especially in text.

Still, that's half the fun.
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Old 26th July 2018, 02:56 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
The Devil's Brigade. Although at 1,400 men thats pretty under-strength for a brigade.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_..._Service_Force
The 1968 William Holden/Cliff Robertson film"The Devil's Brigade" is fun,but not very accurate.
Although they did pretty much nail the attack on Mt Difensa.
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Old 22nd August 2018, 04:40 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
A flying Cromwell. I hope the driver remembers to de-clutch before he lands or that's going to get messy.
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Old 22nd August 2018, 07:29 AM   #344
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Every time I see that photo or the BT-5 jumping film I want to add the Speed Racer jumping Mach 5 sound effect.
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Old 22nd August 2018, 05:16 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Originally Posted by TX50 View Post
A flying Cromwell. I hope the driver remembers to de-clutch before he lands or that's going to get messy.
Are you sure that isn't a still from a James Bond movie?

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Old 23rd August 2018, 02:07 PM   #346
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Cromwell was a fast tank. Christie Suspension coupled with a Meteor Engine (Derated Rolls Royce Merlin).
They equipped Reconnaissance Regiments fromD-Day onwards.
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Old 23rd August 2018, 07:14 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Cromwell was a fast tank. Christie Suspension coupled with a Meteor Engine (Derated Rolls Royce Merlin).
They equipped Reconnaissance Regiments fromD-Day onwards.
Lindeybeige has a video about stories regarding the Cromwell, and one of them was about Market Garden. When forced to retreat quickly from fixed gun positions two tanks had to jump a trench. In midair the commander yelled to the driver to declutch and they did. The other tank did not do so.
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Old 24th August 2018, 07:55 AM   #348
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Bet it never happened
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Old 28th August 2018, 12:54 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Bet it never happened
It's not impossible. The incident is described in Bill Bellamy's "Troop Leader". He says they'd already done it in troop trials at Bovington in 1942 (your picture perhaps shows such a trial). The canal they jumped was allegedly 20 feet across and they hit a ramp on the near bank doing 20 mph. They'd stumbled over a Jerry A/Tk position and were legging it for their lives at the time.

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Old 28th August 2018, 01:43 PM   #350
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Tell it to the Marines

(As we used to say in the Navy)
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Old 29th August 2018, 12:23 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Tell it to the Marines

(As we used to say in the Navy)
Suit yourself, whatever, but the tank in the photo has jumped at least 30 feet already and is still ascending.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 11:13 AM   #352
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if you hit a mere 15 degrees ramp at 30mph, neglecting air resistance (which is pretty accurate for a tank: the surface to mass ratio makes air drag not decelerate it much), you get almost exactly 30 ft jump distance.

You can check the calculation for example here: https://keisan.casio.com/exec/system/1225079475

Edit: note however that to jump a 20 (or for that matter 30ft) ditch with guaranteed results, the tank doesn't actually have to jump all that distance. It just needs to jump from where the rear of the track left the ramp to where the centre of mass passed the other edge of the ditch. So you can actually subtract a few feet from how long you need to jump.
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Old 3rd September 2018, 03:18 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by TX50 View Post
Suit yourself, whatever, but the tank in the photo has jumped at least 30 feet already and is still ascending.
To be pedantic, it's still in a nose-up attitude; it may nevertheless be descending, because although it'll generate a bit of lift I suspect that'll be negligible compared to the weight of the tank.

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Old 3rd September 2018, 01:59 PM   #354
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A great many airplanes have crashed while descending in a nose up attitude. Depending on where the cg is, the tank may have been pitching up while in flight.
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Old 3rd September 2018, 02:05 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
A great many airplanes have crashed while descending in a nose up attitude. Depending on where the cg is, the tank may have been pitching up while in flight.
Given the mass, and what that must mean for the moment of inertia, I suspect it's attitude is not going to alter very much during the flight time for a 30mph jump - regardless of where the CoG is.
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Old 3rd September 2018, 04:11 PM   #356
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I would expect the CG to be relatively near the middle of the tank. Otherwise you're not spreading the weight evenly over the tracks. And, after all, the whole reason to go with tracks was to keep ground pressure in check.
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Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
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Old 4th September 2018, 01:35 AM   #357
Dave Rogers
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While we're discussing the aerodynamics of tanks, I should probably mention the Antonov A-40, for which this was a key concern (and apparently an insurmountable obstacle).

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Old 4th September 2018, 02:58 AM   #358
Captain_Swoop
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I would expect the CG to be relatively near the middle of the tank. Otherwise you're not spreading the weight evenly over the tracks. And, after all, the whole reason to go with tracks was to keep ground pressure in check.
Not necessarily although you are right, a designer tries to spread the weight of the tank across it's wheelbase it isn't always possible. For example, look at the wheel spacing on a T-34 or T-55.

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 4th September 2018 at 03:00 AM.
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Old 9th October 2018, 12:46 AM   #359
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BTW, I can't remember... did anyone mention the Covenanter yet? I think that a tank that, forget exploiting a breakthrough, it can't even get to the fighting because the cooling boils over is a fair example of what happens when drugs are legal

Running the hot coolant pipes through the crew compartment is also a nice touch. Not only it keeps them on their toes, but it keeps the tank nice and warm... in the desert.

But I think basically all one needs to know is that the Brits in Africa would rather use captured Italian tanks, awful as they were, than ship over the Covenanter
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Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
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Old 9th October 2018, 02:49 AM   #360
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Covenanter was a good looking tank and could have been decent but it was plagued by the usual problems of the early war tanks.
It was given to the London Midland Scottish Railway engineering department to design, they had no experience with AFV design. Meadows were asked to produce a new low profile engine design and produced a horizontally opposed 12-cylinder design, it was wide and left no room for radiators in the rear.
Because of the heating in the crew compartment it was never considered for deployment to Africa but a few were sent for assessment.
It was ordered straight off the drawing board with no prototypes just like the Crusader and Churchill which effectively made all of them prototypes.
It came in to service just after Dunkirk and by equipped saome regiments but never saw action as it was replaced by Sherman, Churchill and Cromwell by the time of D-Day
It probably could have been a decent tank if it hadn't been rushed in to production but it was desperate times.
The biggest mistake was keeping it in production long after it was obsolete because it was felt that the contracts with manufacturers had to be honoured.
Covenanter is well covered in 'The Great Tank Scandal: Part 1: British Armour in the Second World War' by David Fletcher.

They didn't 'rather use' captured Italian tanks over the covenanter as none of them were sent to Africa, they were retained in the UK and used for training.
They were having enough problems keeping the crusaders running to worry about
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