[Continuation] Brexit: Now What? Part 6. Pick up sticks... - Page 11

Archie Gemmill Goal · 29th November 2018, 06:40 AM

Originally Posted by jimbob

A serious answer about how it creates damaged individuals

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...dave-and-boris

see also George Monbiot's description of the Public School system, as a former pupil, and, he'd argue, victim.

In case you're unaware, British Public Schools are private and exclusive, with a pecking order.

Public schools and Oxbridge have a hell of a lot to answer for. Everything that is wrong with the UK in one little toxic bundle.

Darat · 29th November 2018, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by Aber

Why not read the report yourself?

Key issue is the reporting is appalling on the No Deal scenarios - the BoE is clear that these are "worst-case scenarios" used for stress-test purposes, and not forecasts.

Because I know I do not have the required knowledge to understand if the modeling is reasonable, correct etc. It's why we have experts.

ETA: And I do know Mogg isn't an economic expert so I find it is puzzling he is being put up against the report. The BBC if it wants to question the report or give viewers and listeners informed opinion on the report they should be going to experts who have expert reasons to doubt the accuracy of the report.

3point14 · 29th November 2018, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

There's an interesting piece of demographic warfare playing out now between May, who wants to hold the Brexit deal debate on the BBC, and Corbyn, who wants it on ITV. Corbyn says it's because he wants to watch the final of I'm A Celebrity... Get Me Out Of Here!, but that may also be political point scoring. So is May trying to convince the Remainers in their heartland of the sofa in front of the BBC, and is Corbyn going after the working class Tory vote?

Dave

I really don't understand the purpose of the debate if there is to be no public vote.

That makes bugger all sense.

Dave Rogers · 29th November 2018, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by 3point14

I really don't understand the purpose of the debate if there is to be no public vote.

That makes bugger all sense.

And that stands out from everything else Brexit related because...?

Dave

3point14 · 29th November 2018, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

And that stands out from everything else Brexit related because...?

Dave

Oh, it doesn't.

We were lied to about what was possible
Leave cheated and has lost in court because of it
The economy will be wrecked whatever happens
Massive amounts of information have come to light since the vote to change the value of the proposition

The fact that those nominally in charge are arranging a TV debate that has no purpose whatsoever shouldn't surprise me, but it does.

The longer this goes on, the more ridiculous it becomes, the more the actors move away from reasonable course of action and the more the majority of the press ignore the above massively salient points, the more I come to believe that someone, somewhere, not a part of UK politics, is pulling strings.

It's just such an utterly mental scenario that if you read it in a novel you wouldn't believe it.

I sincerely hope that, in a decade, when we've sold the QE2 and it's compliment of jets, when we're down to one nuclear submarine, when the NHS has been eviscerated and we've all gained the 'right to work, that there will be prosecutions for treason. And yes, I appreciate that that isn't going to happen because we live in a world where, if you are rich and influential, you don't have to be concerned with the possibility of suffering the consequences of your actions.

Lukraak_Sisser · 29th November 2018, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Because I know I do not have the required knowledge to understand if the modeling is reasonable, correct etc. It's why we have experts.

ETA: And I do know Mogg isn't an economic expert so I find it is puzzling he is being put up against the report. The BBC if it wants to question the report or give viewers and listeners informed opinion on the report they should be going to experts who have expert reasons to doubt the accuracy of the report.

Ah see, that's where you go wrong with your fancy pants 'experts' with their book learning and models based upon experience.

It's the gut feeling of 'a guy I met in the pub while drunk' that should be the basis for economic decisions!

Aber · 29th November 2018, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Because I know I do not have the required knowledge to understand if the modeling is reasonable, correct etc. It's why we have experts.

Key quote on the BoE No Deal scenarios (from their report):

Quote:

To assess the ability of the banking system to continue lending to households and businesses in the most adverse outcomes, the FPC has compared the scenario that banks were tested against in this year’s annual stress test with a worst-case scenario that could be associated with a ‘no deal no transition’ Brexit. The “disruptive” and the “disorderly” Brexit scenarios are therefore not forecasts for the economy in the event that the UK leaves the EU with no deal and no transition period.

Except that much of the press is presenting these as "BoE forecasts for No Deal".

Vixen · 29th November 2018, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by TheSupermeerkat

London will lose up to to €800bn (£700bn) in assets to rival financial hub Frankfurt by March 2019 as banks start to transfer business to the German city before Brexit day.

The lobby group Frankfurt Main Finance released the figure after it was confirmed that 30 banks and financial firms had chosen the city as the site of their new EU headquarters.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...are-for-brexit

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk

I complained to my financial adviser that my pension fund blance had nose-dived alarmingly (risk level=low) last month. He said this was true of the whole pensions fund market. Having reached a six-month high, it is now low. He said the British pension fund portfolios are mainly invested and traded in European markets anyway, and had little to do with the Brexit situation in the UK. Markets go up, markets come down.

Vixen · 29th November 2018, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

There's an interesting piece of demographic warfare playing out now between May, who wants to hold the Brexit deal debate on the BBC, and Corbyn, who wants it on ITV. Corbyn says it's because he wants to watch the final of I'm A Celebrity... Get Me Out Of Here!, but that may also be political point scoring. So is May trying to convince the Remainers in their heartland of the sofa in front of the BBC, and is Corbyn going after the working class Tory vote?

Dave

It's the art of negotiation. It a game of psyche-playing. According to the theory, the person who sets the agenda, time and place has the upper hand. (As an analogy, your boss calling you to his office, not the other way round). Whoever wins this tactic of specifying location is the one in the stronger position and the other, the one who wants it most.

I would say this was Theresa May, desperate to ~~inculcate~~ persuade the British public she is the 'voice of reason' and to 'trust me'. Without Corbyn's co-operation, she will not get this prime time wide audience.

Vixen · 29th November 2018, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

Because I know I do not have the required knowledge to understand if the modeling is reasonable, correct etc. It's why we have experts.

ETA: And I do know Mogg isn't an economic expert so I find it is puzzling he is being put up against the report. The BBC if it wants to question the report or give viewers and listeners informed opinion on the report they should be going to experts who have expert reasons to doubt the accuracy of the report.

Rees-Mogg's background is in journalism, as former editor of the TIMES. Degree was in history and the arts.

Quote:

He later read History at Trinity College, Oxford, where he graduated with an upper second-class honours degree in 1991.[23][24] While at Oxford he became president of the Oxford University Conservative Association and was a member and frequent debater at the Oxford Union, where he was elected Librarian.[25][26] Reflecting on his time at university, he has admitted regret at not having studied Classics.[27]

wiki

Compare and contrast with hard economic sciences Philip Hammond. This guy does understand what the issues are.

Quote:

studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at University College, Oxford. <snip> He was educated at Shenfield School (now Shenfield High School) in Brentwood, Essex[7] where he was a classmate of Richard Madeley. He then read Philosophy, Politics and Economics at University College, Oxford, where he was an Open Scholar,[7] and graduated with a first-class honours degree.[8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Hammond

PPE, is of course, the traditional route into politics. Plus Hammond has business experience.

Vixen · 29th November 2018, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by 3point14

I really don't understand the purpose of the debate if there is to be no public vote.

That makes bugger all sense.

Just imagine if this was the sixteenth century. The losing side would have been hanged drawn and quartered as traitors, after a jolly ferocious civil war, with leaders' heads on stakes as an example to his (or 'her' in this case) followers.

That's what we don't get any more. Just a bunch of talking heads trading insults on tv.

Vixen · 29th November 2018, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by 3point14

Oh, it doesn't.

We were lied to about what was possible
Leave cheated and has lost in court because of it
The economy will be wrecked whatever happens
Massive amounts of information have come to light since the vote to change the value of the proposition

The fact that those nominally in charge are arranging a TV debate that has no purpose whatsoever shouldn't surprise me, but it does.

The longer this goes on, the more ridiculous it becomes, the more the actors move away from reasonable course of action and the more the majority of the press ignore the above massively salient points, the more I come to believe that someone, somewhere, not a part of UK politics, is pulling strings.

It's just such an utterly mental scenario that if you read it in a novel you wouldn't believe it.

I sincerely hope that, in a decade, when we've sold the QE2 and it's compliment of jets, when we're down to one nuclear submarine, when the NHS has been eviscerated and we've all gained the 'right to work, that there will be prosecutions for treason. And yes, I appreciate that that isn't going to happen because we live in a world where, if you are rich and influential, you don't have to be concerned with the possibility of suffering the consequences of your actions.

It's a power struggle between the globalists and the Russians. They are all up to dirty tricks.

p0lka · 29th November 2018, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

Because I know I do not have the required knowledge to understand if the modeling is reasonable, correct etc. It's why we have experts.

I'm pretty sure you do, moreso than the politicians who pretend they understand things but are just petrified of looking..anything.

Originally Posted by Darat

ETA: And I do know Mogg isn't an economic expert so I find it is puzzling he is being put up against the report. The BBC if it wants to question the report or give viewers and listeners informed opinion on the report they should be going to experts who have expert reasons to doubt the accuracy of the report.

Mogg is too busy moving his 'interests' outside the very thing he is publicly endorsing to care.

Captain_Swoop · 29th November 2018, 05:15 PM

Apparently one of the members of a panel on a recent Newsnight 'debate' on Brexit has worked as an extra on some BBC show at some time in the past.
this means that she was a 'plant' as she was pro brexit and it sghows how biassed the BBC are.

It's being touted as 'Vicargate' as the panel member was dressed in a dog collar and claiming to be a Pastor in some American church organisation.
Apparently that is part of the conspiracy by the BBC to undermine the remainers.

Trebuchet · 29th November 2018, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Apparently one of the members of a panel on a recent Newsnight 'debate' on Brexit has worked as an extra on some BBC show at some time in the past.
this means that she was a 'plant' as she was pro brexit and it sghows how biassed the BBC are.

It's being touted as 'Vicargate' as the panel member was dressed in a dog collar and claiming to be a Pastor in some American church organisation.
Apparently that is part of the conspiracy by the BBC to undermine the remainers.

Facebook page for her "church". That's her in all of the pictures.

p0lka · 29th November 2018, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Apparently one of the members of a panel on a recent Newsnight 'debate' on Brexit has worked as an extra on some BBC show at some time in the past.
this means that she was a 'plant' as she was pro brexit and it sghows how biassed the BBC are.

It's being touted as 'Vicargate' as the panel member was dressed in a dog collar and claiming to be a Pastor in some American church organisation.
Apparently that is part of the conspiracy by the BBC to undermine the remainers.

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angrysoba · 30th November 2018, 02:18 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Apparently one of the members of a panel on a recent Newsnight 'debate' on Brexit has worked as an extra on some BBC show at some time in the past.
this means that she was a 'plant' as she was pro brexit and it sghows how biassed the BBC are.

It's being touted as 'Vicargate' as the panel member was dressed in a dog collar and claiming to be a Pastor in some American church organisation.
Apparently that is part of the conspiracy by the BBC to undermine the remainers.

What was the show? I watched that debate on You Tube, and one commenter had linked to a video saying the vicar was much better in this. It linked to a Fatboy Slim video with Christopher Walken dancing. I watched for a bit expecting the vicar to appear but slowly, with Corbyn-like awareness, it dawned on me that it was a joke. The vicar does have a passing resemblance to Walken, if you are a ~~Brexit voter~~ shortsighted. The moderator had no control on the debate as people on the panel and the “hand-picked” members of the public yelled at each other with the vicar nosiest of all not to mention most holier than thou.

Captain_Swoop · 30th November 2018, 02:43 AM

Games4EU guide to gaming Brexit.

A no deal or hard Brexit will likely compel British video games and interactive entertainment businesses to relocate parts (or all) of their operations to the EU to comply with market rules.

https://www.games4eu.com/brexit-guide

UK Gaming industry is more than 5 times the size of the fishing industry.

Verdict in the Pub last night was that it serves them right, making video games isn't 'proper work'

After we 'take it back' they can get 'proper' jobs.

Archie Gemmill Goal · 30th November 2018, 03:19 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

I complained to my financial adviser that my pension fund blance had nose-dived alarmingly (risk level=low) last month. He said this was true of the whole pensions fund market. Having reached a six-month high, it is now low. He said the British pension fund portfolios are mainly invested and traded in European markets anyway, and had little to do with the Brexit situation in the UK. Markets go up, markets come down.

This post has nothing to do with the post you quoted by the way.

Archie Gemmill Goal · 30th November 2018, 03:25 AM

Why is that pretty much all Brexiteers seem to be such wholly cretinous individuals?

Watched Question Time last night and Tim Martin made me want to vomit, then stayed on for a bit of This Week and got Isabel Oakshott dripping with loathesomeness and Andrew Neil oozing scumbag from every pore while Portillo sneered at the world.

Whole looks at these people and people like Rees Mogg, BJ, Gove, etc and thinks 'they seem like upstanding individuals and well worth listening to'

Are there any Brexiteers who aren't *****?

Captain_Swoop · 30th November 2018, 03:35 AM

Portillo has carefully cultivated his 'eccentric' traveller image with his 'Railway Journeys' series.
People forget his politics.

3point14 · 30th November 2018, 03:44 AM

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal

Why is that pretty much all Brexiteers seem to be such wholly cretinous individuals?

Watched Question Time last night and Tim Martin made me want to vomit, then stayed on for a bit of This Week and got Isabel Oakshott dripping with loathesomeness and Andrew Neil oozing scumbag from every pore while Portillo sneered at the world.

Whole looks at these people and people like Rees Mogg, BJ, Gove, etc and thinks 'they seem like upstanding individuals and well worth listening to'

The pop theory I read is that a third of the people have sociopathic tendencies and a other third of the people can't spot this.

Which leaves us, the final third, outnumbered by sociopaths and the credulous.

Which is why we're ******.

Archie Gemmill Goal · 30th November 2018, 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by 3point14

The pop theory I read is that a third of the people have sociopathic tendencies and a other third of the people can't spot this.

Which leaves us, the final third, outnumbered by sociopaths and the credulous.

Which is why we're ******.

The scary thing is that people like Rees-Mogg don't even pretend to hide it. I can never quite work out whether its simply that these guys are memorable and therefore become popular as celebrities or if people genuinely are so indoctrinated into the class system that they think people like that are their betters so must know what they are talking about. It's scary.

I mean you wouldn't put JRM in charge of your kids let alone the country.

Its sad when you find yourself longing for the days of Blair and Cameron compared to the current lot.

But then I am also amazed by just how ignorant people are of the issues. The number of people on QT last night who just spouted out 'WTO' as if it was an answer was astonishing - not one of them I bet could tell you the first thing about what that actually means.

toto · 30th November 2018, 04:20 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Rees-Mogg's background is in journalism, as former editor of the TIMES. Degree was in history and the arts.

wiki

Compare and contrast with hard economic sciences Philip Hammond. This guy does understand what the issues are.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Hammond

PPE, is of course, the traditional route into politics. Plus Hammond has business experience.

William Rees-Mogg , Jacob's father, was a former editor of The Times.

zooterkin · 30th November 2018, 04:47 AM

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal

Its sad when you find yourself longing for the days of Blair and Cameron compared to the current lot.

Apart from the fact that pig-****** Cameron was the one that dropped us into it.

catsmate · 30th November 2018, 05:10 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

There's an interesting piece of demographic warfare playing out now between May, who wants to hold the Brexit deal debate on the BBC, and Corbyn, who wants it on ITV. Corbyn says it's because he wants to watch the final of I'm A Celebrity... Get Me Out Of Here!, but that may also be political point scoring. So is May trying to convince the Remainers in their heartland of the sofa in front of the BBC, and is Corbyn going after the working class Tory vote?

Dave

Why not a joint broadcast?

Lothian · 30th November 2018, 05:22 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate

Why not a joint broadcast?

I support that. Give them a joint each and roll the cameras.

Information Analyst · 30th November 2018, 05:26 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

UK Gaming industry is more than 5 times the size of the fishing industry.

Verdict in the Pub last night was that it serves them right, making video games isn't 'proper work'

After we 'take it back' they can get 'proper' jobs.

BBC Breakfast was in Newlyn this morning. Cue interview with fishing twonk wibbling on about "fairer access," "our waters," and other such guff. Obviously didn't mention anything about British boats fishing in other-EU waters.

Information Analyst · 30th November 2018, 05:29 AM

Originally Posted by Lothian

I support that. Give them a joint each and roll the cameras.

I'd be more interested in them dropping MDMA and then hearing the real truth come tumbling out.

Dave Rogers · 30th November 2018, 05:36 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate

Why not a joint broadcast?

Given the current deadlock on everything else related to Brexit, I suspect that there would have to be about six months of wrangling over which organisation does which bit.

Dave

Archie Gemmill Goal · 30th November 2018, 06:01 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Apart from the fact that pig-****** Cameron was the one that dropped us into it.

True... but at least he wasn't stupid enough to think its actually a good idea.

Belz... · 30th November 2018, 06:11 AM

Originally Posted by Ian Osborne

“We're not really interested in a transition deal, but we'll consider one to be kind to the EU.”
David Davis
15 November 2016

“Indeed, [a trade deal] would take significantly less than two years. We hold all the cards. We will offer them a deal in response to their pleas for help.”
Patrick Minford
14 June 2016

Whatever you think about Brexit, these two people live in a different universe than ours.

Diablo · 30th November 2018, 06:33 AM

May was a remainer, and I think she has deliberately negotiated a lousy deal which will be unacceptable to almost everyone, and which Parliament will vote down, as it will a 'no deal', leaving the way open for a second vote which she thinks the remainers will win.

BobTheCoward · 30th November 2018, 06:42 AM

Originally Posted by Diablo

May was a remainer, and I think she has deliberately negotiated a lousy deal which will be unacceptable to almost everyone, and which Parliament will vote down, as it will a 'no deal', leaving the way open for a second vote which she thinks the remainers will win.

What would be different if it was negotiated in good faith? How would you tell?

angrysoba · 30th November 2018, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal

Its sad when you find yourself longing for the days of Blair and Cameron compared to the current lot.

I dunno. In the good ol days of politics, we had weird-looking politicians like Thatcher, Kinnock, Douglas Hurd etc... and Spitting Image had a field day making fun of them. Perhaps not coincidentally there also used to be real characters in Snooker such as Alex Higgins, Willie Thorne, Bill ~~Wer..Wurbi..Wirbunyak...~~ the fat Canadian beer guzzler.

Then it became ultra boring after Tony Blair, with all politicians trying to look as manicured as possible, matching some focus-grouped photo-fit bland template. They had the same suits, the same mannerisms, answered questions the same way ("Linda, thank you for your question. Our answer is that we are giving you the choice, Linda!") and were basically dull, dull, dull. Spitting Image probably couldn't have worked in those days.

But now, Spitting Image would have a new problem. How could it even manage to parody the parade of gargoyles and weirdos in politics today? Bojo, JRM, Gove, May, Corbyn. They are too ridiculous by themselves.

angrysoba · 30th November 2018, 06:50 AM

Originally Posted by Diablo

May was a remainer, and I think she has deliberately negotiated a lousy deal which will be unacceptable to almost everyone, and which Parliament will vote down, as it will a 'no deal', leaving the way open for a second vote which she thinks the remainers will win.

It's my hopelessly optimistic wish that she has made such calculations. But I think a more realistic possibility is that the vote will fail and either the Tories will try to pull the Norway option out of the bag. Still a net loss for remainers but maybe not the catastrophe of the no deal. But, my most pessimistic hunch is that no deal will be allowed to happen.

Dave Rogers · 30th November 2018, 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by Diablo

May was a remainer, and I think she has deliberately negotiated a lousy deal which will be unacceptable to almost everyone, and which Parliament will vote down, as it will a 'no deal', leaving the way open for a second vote which she thinks the remainers will win.

That certainly seems a viable conspiracy theory at this juncture, but I'm not sure how consistent it is with her adamant refusal to countenance a second referendum. Do you think she's got to keep up that facade to forestall a Gotcha! moment when the hard line Brexiteers pick up on the theory and start throwing round the accusations?

Dave

Amazer · 30th November 2018, 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

That certainly seems a viable conspiracy theory at this juncture, but I'm not sure how consistent it is with her adamant refusal to countenance a second referendum. Do you think she's got to keep up that facade to forestall a Gotcha! moment when the hard line Brexiteers pick up on the theory and start throwing round the accusations?

Dave

She might change her mind after the down vote in parliament? Declare that the house is hopelessly divided and that she is left with no choice but to give a second referendum?

angrysoba · 30th November 2018, 07:24 AM

Originally Posted by Amazer

She might change her mind after the down vote in parliament? Declare that the house is hopelessly divided and that she is left with no choice but to give a second referendum?

She might, but once Theresa May has made up her mind that there will be not be any chance of a new vote, she...oh, she suddenly surprises people with another one.

Archie Gemmill Goal · 30th November 2018, 07:25 AM

Does a second referendum have enough votes to pass in Parliament?

Does anything?

If not then a no deal shambles seems the option that we get to by default. Which is why the Leavers were so keen to trigger Art 50 straight away before anyone could actually think through the consequences.

29th November 2018, 06:40 AM	#401
Archie Gemmill Goal Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 5,348	Originally Posted by jimbob A serious answer about how it creates damaged individuals https://www.theguardian.com/politics...dave-and-boris see also George Monbiot's description of the Public School system, as a former pupil, and, he'd argue, victim. In case you're unaware, British Public Schools are private and exclusive, with a pecking order. Public schools and Oxbridge have a hell of a lot to answer for. Everything that is wrong with the UK in one little toxic bundle.
	__________________ "I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"

29th November 2018, 09:03 AM	#402
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 84,806	Originally Posted by Aber Why not read the report yourself? Key issue is the reporting is appalling on the No Deal scenarios - the BoE is clear that these are "worst-case scenarios" used for stress-test purposes, and not forecasts. Because I know I do not have the required knowledge to understand if the modeling is reasonable, correct etc. It's why we have experts. ETA: And I do know Mogg isn't an economic expert so I find it is puzzling he is being put up against the report. The BBC if it wants to question the report or give viewers and listeners informed opinion on the report they should be going to experts who have expert reasons to doubt the accuracy of the report.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you Last edited by Darat; 29th November 2018 at 09:07 AM.

29th November 2018, 09:53 AM	#403
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 16,855	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers There's an interesting piece of demographic warfare playing out now between May, who wants to hold the Brexit deal debate on the BBC, and Corbyn, who wants it on ITV. Corbyn says it's because he wants to watch the final of I'm A Celebrity... Get Me Out Of Here!, but that may also be political point scoring. So is May trying to convince the Remainers in their heartland of the sofa in front of the BBC, and is Corbyn going after the working class Tory vote? Dave I really don't understand the purpose of the debate if there is to be no public vote. That makes bugger all sense.
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 16,855	__________________ Up the River!

29th November 2018, 10:01 AM	#404
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 28,497	Originally Posted by 3point14 I really don't understand the purpose of the debate if there is to be no public vote. That makes bugger all sense. And that stands out from everything else Brexit related because...? Dave
	__________________ Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right? Tony Szamboti: That is right

29th November 2018, 10:10 AM	#405
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 16,855	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers And that stands out from everything else Brexit related because...? Dave Oh, it doesn't. We were lied to about what was possible Leave cheated and has lost in court because of it The economy will be wrecked whatever happens Massive amounts of information have come to light since the vote to change the value of the proposition The fact that those nominally in charge are arranging a TV debate that has no purpose whatsoever shouldn't surprise me, but it does. The longer this goes on, the more ridiculous it becomes, the more the actors move away from reasonable course of action and the more the majority of the press ignore the above massively salient points, the more I come to believe that someone, somewhere, not a part of UK politics, is pulling strings. It's just such an utterly mental scenario that if you read it in a novel you wouldn't believe it. I sincerely hope that, in a decade, when we've sold the QE2 and it's compliment of jets, when we're down to one nuclear submarine, when the NHS has been eviscerated and we've all gained the 'right to work, that there will be prosecutions for treason. And yes, I appreciate that that isn't going to happen because we live in a world where, if you are rich and influential, you don't have to be concerned with the possibility of suffering the consequences of your actions.
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 16,855	__________________ Up the River!

29th November 2018, 10:13 AM	#406
Lukraak_Sisser Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 3,275	Originally Posted by Darat Because I know I do not have the required knowledge to understand if the modeling is reasonable, correct etc. It's why we have experts. ETA: And I do know Mogg isn't an economic expert so I find it is puzzling he is being put up against the report. The BBC if it wants to question the report or give viewers and listeners informed opinion on the report they should be going to experts who have expert reasons to doubt the accuracy of the report. Ah see, that's where you go wrong with your fancy pants 'experts' with their book learning and models based upon experience. It's the gut feeling of 'a guy I met in the pub while drunk' that should be the basis for economic decisions!

29th November 2018, 10:31 AM	#407
Aber Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 1,399	Originally Posted by Darat Because I know I do not have the required knowledge to understand if the modeling is reasonable, correct etc. It's why we have experts. Key quote on the BoE No Deal scenarios (from their report): Quote: To assess the ability of the banking system to continue lending to households and businesses in the most adverse outcomes, the FPC has compared the scenario that banks were tested against in this year’s annual stress test with a worst-case scenario that could be associated with a ‘no deal no transition’ Brexit. The “disruptive” and the “disorderly” Brexit scenarios are therefore not forecasts for the economy in the event that the UK leaves the EU with no deal and no transition period. Except that much of the press is presenting these as "BoE forecasts for No Deal".
Aber Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 1,399

29th November 2018, 02:09 PM	#408
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Moomin Valley Posts: 14,924	Originally Posted by TheSupermeerkat London will lose up to to €800bn (£700bn) in assets to rival financial hub Frankfurt by March 2019 as banks start to transfer business to the German city before Brexit day. The lobby group Frankfurt Main Finance released the figure after it was confirmed that 30 banks and financial firms had chosen the city as the site of their new EU headquarters. https://www.theguardian.com/politics...are-for-brexit Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk I complained to my financial adviser that my pension fund blance had nose-dived alarmingly (risk level=low) last month. He said this was true of the whole pensions fund market. Having reached a six-month high, it is now low. He said the British pension fund portfolios are mainly invested and traded in European markets anyway, and had little to do with the Brexit situation in the UK. Markets go up, markets come down.
	__________________ If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb

29th November 2018, 02:14 PM	#409
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Moomin Valley Posts: 14,924	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers There's an interesting piece of demographic warfare playing out now between May, who wants to hold the Brexit deal debate on the BBC, and Corbyn, who wants it on ITV. Corbyn says it's because he wants to watch the final of I'm A Celebrity... Get Me Out Of Here!, but that may also be political point scoring. So is May trying to convince the Remainers in their heartland of the sofa in front of the BBC, and is Corbyn going after the working class Tory vote? Dave It's the art of negotiation. It a game of psyche-playing. According to the theory, the person who sets the agenda, time and place has the upper hand. (As an analogy, your boss calling you to his office, not the other way round). Whoever wins this tactic of specifying location is the one in the stronger position and the other, the one who wants it most. I would say this was Theresa May, desperate to ~~inculcate~~ persuade the British public she is the 'voice of reason' and to 'trust me'. Without Corbyn's co-operation, she will not get this prime time wide audience.
	__________________ If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb

29th November 2018, 02:22 PM	#410
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Moomin Valley Posts: 14,924	Originally Posted by Darat Because I know I do not have the required knowledge to understand if the modeling is reasonable, correct etc. It's why we have experts. ETA: And I do know Mogg isn't an economic expert so I find it is puzzling he is being put up against the report. The BBC if it wants to question the report or give viewers and listeners informed opinion on the report they should be going to experts who have expert reasons to doubt the accuracy of the report. Rees-Mogg's background is in journalism, as former editor of the TIMES. Degree was in history and the arts. Quote: He later read History at Trinity College, Oxford, where he graduated with an upper second-class honours degree in 1991.[23][24] While at Oxford he became president of the Oxford University Conservative Association and was a member and frequent debater at the Oxford Union, where he was elected Librarian.[25][26] Reflecting on his time at university, he has admitted regret at not having studied Classics.[27] wiki Compare and contrast with hard economic sciences Philip Hammond. This guy does understand what the issues are. Quote: studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at University College, Oxford. <snip> He was educated at Shenfield School (now Shenfield High School) in Brentwood, Essex[7] where he was a classmate of Richard Madeley. He then read Philosophy, Politics and Economics at University College, Oxford, where he was an Open Scholar,[7] and graduated with a first-class honours degree.[8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Hammond PPE, is of course, the traditional route into politics. Plus Hammond has business experience.
	__________________ If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb

29th November 2018, 02:26 PM	#411
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Moomin Valley Posts: 14,924	Originally Posted by 3point14 I really don't understand the purpose of the debate if there is to be no public vote. That makes bugger all sense. Just imagine if this was the sixteenth century. The losing side would have been hanged drawn and quartered as traitors, after a jolly ferocious civil war, with leaders' heads on stakes as an example to his (or 'her' in this case) followers. That's what we don't get any more. Just a bunch of talking heads trading insults on tv.
	__________________ If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb

29th November 2018, 02:29 PM	#412
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Moomin Valley Posts: 14,924	Originally Posted by 3point14 Oh, it doesn't. We were lied to about what was possible Leave cheated and has lost in court because of it The economy will be wrecked whatever happens Massive amounts of information have come to light since the vote to change the value of the proposition The fact that those nominally in charge are arranging a TV debate that has no purpose whatsoever shouldn't surprise me, but it does. The longer this goes on, the more ridiculous it becomes, the more the actors move away from reasonable course of action and the more the majority of the press ignore the above massively salient points, the more I come to believe that someone, somewhere, not a part of UK politics, is pulling strings. It's just such an utterly mental scenario that if you read it in a novel you wouldn't believe it. I sincerely hope that, in a decade, when we've sold the QE2 and it's compliment of jets, when we're down to one nuclear submarine, when the NHS has been eviscerated and we've all gained the 'right to work, that there will be prosecutions for treason. And yes, I appreciate that that isn't going to happen because we live in a world where, if you are rich and influential, you don't have to be concerned with the possibility of suffering the consequences of your actions. It's a power struggle between the globalists and the Russians. They are all up to dirty tricks.
	__________________ If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb

29th November 2018, 02:50 PM	#413
p0lka Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,184	Originally Posted by Darat Because I know I do not have the required knowledge to understand if the modeling is reasonable, correct etc. It's why we have experts. I'm pretty sure you do, moreso than the politicians who pretend they understand things but are just petrified of looking..anything. Originally Posted by Darat ETA: And I do know Mogg isn't an economic expert so I find it is puzzling he is being put up against the report. The BBC if it wants to question the report or give viewers and listeners informed opinion on the report they should be going to experts who have expert reasons to doubt the accuracy of the report. Mogg is too busy moving his 'interests' outside the very thing he is publicly endorsing to care.
p0lka Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,184

29th November 2018, 05:15 PM	#414
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 19,057	Apparently one of the members of a panel on a recent Newsnight 'debate' on Brexit has worked as an extra on some BBC show at some time in the past. this means that she was a 'plant' as she was pro brexit and it sghows how biassed the BBC are. It's being touted as 'Vicargate' as the panel member was dressed in a dog collar and claiming to be a Pastor in some American church organisation. Apparently that is part of the conspiracy by the BBC to undermine the remainers.

29th November 2018, 05:28 PM	#415
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The Great Northwet Posts: 20,053	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Apparently one of the members of a panel on a recent Newsnight 'debate' on Brexit has worked as an extra on some BBC show at some time in the past. this means that she was a 'plant' as she was pro brexit and it sghows how biassed the BBC are. It's being touted as 'Vicargate' as the panel member was dressed in a dog collar and claiming to be a Pastor in some American church organisation. Apparently that is part of the conspiracy by the BBC to undermine the remainers. Facebook page for her "church". That's her in all of the pictures.

29th November 2018, 05:42 PM	#416
p0lka Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,184	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Apparently one of the members of a panel on a recent Newsnight 'debate' on Brexit has worked as an extra on some BBC show at some time in the past. this means that she was a 'plant' as she was pro brexit and it sghows how biassed the BBC are. It's being touted as 'Vicargate' as the panel member was dressed in a dog collar and claiming to be a Pastor in some American church organisation. Apparently that is part of the conspiracy by the BBC to undermine the remainers. . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . ,.-‘”. . . . . . . . . .``~., . . . . . . . .. . . . . .,.-”. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .“-., . . . . .. . . . . . ..,/. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ”:, . . . . . . . .. .,?. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\, . . . . . . . . . /. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,} . . . . . . . . ./. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,:`^`.} . . . . . . . ./. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,:”. . . ./ . . . . . . .?. . . __. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . :`. . . ./ . . . . . . . /__.(. . .“~-,_. . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,:`. . . .. ./ . . . . . . /(_. . ”~,_. . . ..“~,_. . . . . . . . . .,:`. . . . _/ . . . .. .{.._$;_. . .”=,_. . . .“-,_. . . ,.-~-,}, .~”; /. .. .} . . .. . .((. . .~_. . . .”=-._. . .“;,,./`. . /” . . . ./. .. ../ . . . .. . .\`~,. . ..“~.,. . . . . . . . . ..`. . .}. . . . . . ../ . . . . . .(. ..`=-,,. . . .`. . . . . . . . . . . ..(. . . ;_,,-” . . . . . ../.`~,. . ..`-.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..\. . /\ . . . . . . \`~.-,. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..\|,./.....\,__ ,,_. . . . . }.>-._\. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\|. . . . . . ..`=~-, . .. `=~-,_\_. . . `\,. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\ . . . . . . . . . .`=~-,,.\,. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . `:,, . . . . . . . . . . . . . `\. . . . . . ..__ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .`=-,. . . . . . . . . .,%`>--==`` . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . _\. . . . . ._,-%. . . ..`
p0lka Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,184

30th November 2018, 02:18 AM	#417
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 24,425	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Apparently one of the members of a panel on a recent Newsnight 'debate' on Brexit has worked as an extra on some BBC show at some time in the past. this means that she was a 'plant' as she was pro brexit and it sghows how biassed the BBC are. It's being touted as 'Vicargate' as the panel member was dressed in a dog collar and claiming to be a Pastor in some American church organisation. Apparently that is part of the conspiracy by the BBC to undermine the remainers. What was the show? I watched that debate on You Tube, and one commenter had linked to a video saying the vicar was much better in this. It linked to a Fatboy Slim video with Christopher Walken dancing. I watched for a bit expecting the vicar to appear but slowly, with Corbyn-like awareness, it dawned on me that it was a joke. The vicar does have a passing resemblance to Walken, if you are a ~~Brexit voter~~ shortsighted. The moderator had no control on the debate as people on the panel and the “hand-picked” members of the public yelled at each other with the vicar nosiest of all not to mention most holier than thou.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

30th November 2018, 02:43 AM	#418
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 19,057	Games4EU guide to gaming Brexit. A no deal or hard Brexit will likely compel British video games and interactive entertainment businesses to relocate parts (or all) of their operations to the EU to comply with market rules. https://www.games4eu.com/brexit-guide UK Gaming industry is more than 5 times the size of the fishing industry. Verdict in the Pub last night was that it serves them right, making video games isn't 'proper work' After we 'take it back' they can get 'proper' jobs.

30th November 2018, 03:19 AM	#419
Archie Gemmill Goal Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 5,348	Originally Posted by Vixen I complained to my financial adviser that my pension fund blance had nose-dived alarmingly (risk level=low) last month. He said this was true of the whole pensions fund market. Having reached a six-month high, it is now low. He said the British pension fund portfolios are mainly invested and traded in European markets anyway, and had little to do with the Brexit situation in the UK. Markets go up, markets come down. This post has nothing to do with the post you quoted by the way.
	__________________ "I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"

30th November 2018, 03:25 AM	#420
Archie Gemmill Goal Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 5,348	Why is that pretty much all Brexiteers seem to be such wholly cretinous individuals? Watched Question Time last night and Tim Martin made me want to vomit, then stayed on for a bit of This Week and got Isabel Oakshott dripping with loathesomeness and Andrew Neil oozing scumbag from every pore while Portillo sneered at the world. Whole looks at these people and people like Rees Mogg, BJ, Gove, etc and thinks 'they seem like upstanding individuals and well worth listening to' Are there any Brexiteers who aren't *****?
	__________________ "I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"

30th November 2018, 03:35 AM	#421
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 19,057	Portillo has carefully cultivated his 'eccentric' traveller image with his 'Railway Journeys' series. People forget his politics.

30th November 2018, 03:44 AM	#422
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 16,855	Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal Why is that pretty much all Brexiteers seem to be such wholly cretinous individuals? Watched Question Time last night and Tim Martin made me want to vomit, then stayed on for a bit of This Week and got Isabel Oakshott dripping with loathesomeness and Andrew Neil oozing scumbag from every pore while Portillo sneered at the world. Whole looks at these people and people like Rees Mogg, BJ, Gove, etc and thinks 'they seem like upstanding individuals and well worth listening to' The pop theory I read is that a third of the people have sociopathic tendencies and a other third of the people can't spot this. Which leaves us, the final third, outnumbered by sociopaths and the credulous. Which is why we're ******.
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 16,855	__________________ Up the River!

30th November 2018, 04:09 AM	#423
Archie Gemmill Goal Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 5,348	Originally Posted by 3point14 The pop theory I read is that a third of the people have sociopathic tendencies and a other third of the people can't spot this. Which leaves us, the final third, outnumbered by sociopaths and the credulous. Which is why we're ******. The scary thing is that people like Rees-Mogg don't even pretend to hide it. I can never quite work out whether its simply that these guys are memorable and therefore become popular as celebrities or if people genuinely are so indoctrinated into the class system that they think people like that are their betters so must know what they are talking about. It's scary. I mean you wouldn't put JRM in charge of your kids let alone the country. Its sad when you find yourself longing for the days of Blair and Cameron compared to the current lot. But then I am also amazed by just how ignorant people are of the issues. The number of people on QT last night who just spouted out 'WTO' as if it was an answer was astonishing - not one of them I bet could tell you the first thing about what that actually means.
	__________________ "I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"

30th November 2018, 04:20 AM	#424
toto Muse Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 679	Originally Posted by Vixen Rees-Mogg's background is in journalism, as former editor of the TIMES. Degree was in history and the arts. wiki Compare and contrast with hard economic sciences Philip Hammond. This guy does understand what the issues are. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Hammond PPE, is of course, the traditional route into politics. Plus Hammond has business experience. William Rees-Mogg , Jacob's father, was a former editor of The Times.
toto Muse Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 679	__________________ Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. Samuel Beckett

30th November 2018, 04:47 AM	#425
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Deputy Admin Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 41,753	Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal Its sad when you find yourself longing for the days of Blair and Cameron compared to the current lot. Apart from the fact that pig-****** Cameron was the one that dropped us into it.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20

30th November 2018, 05:10 AM	#426
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 19,886	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers There's an interesting piece of demographic warfare playing out now between May, who wants to hold the Brexit deal debate on the BBC, and Corbyn, who wants it on ITV. Corbyn says it's because he wants to watch the final of I'm A Celebrity... Get Me Out Of Here!, but that may also be political point scoring. So is May trying to convince the Remainers in their heartland of the sofa in front of the BBC, and is Corbyn going after the working class Tory vote? Dave Why not a joint broadcast?
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

30th November 2018, 05:22 AM	#427
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: on the edge Posts: 14,152	Originally Posted by catsmate Why not a joint broadcast? I support that. Give them a joint each and roll the cameras.

30th November 2018, 05:26 AM	#428
Information Analyst Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure... Posts: 8,822	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop UK Gaming industry is more than 5 times the size of the fishing industry. Verdict in the Pub last night was that it serves them right, making video games isn't 'proper work' After we 'take it back' they can get 'proper' jobs. BBC Breakfast was in Newlyn this morning. Cue interview with fishing twonk wibbling on about "fairer access," "our waters," and other such guff. Obviously didn't mention anything about British boats fishing in other-EU waters.

30th November 2018, 05:29 AM	#429
Information Analyst Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure... Posts: 8,822	Originally Posted by Lothian I support that. Give them a joint each and roll the cameras. I'd be more interested in them dropping MDMA and then hearing the real truth come tumbling out.

30th November 2018, 05:36 AM	#430
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 28,497	Originally Posted by catsmate Why not a joint broadcast? Given the current deadlock on everything else related to Brexit, I suspect that there would have to be about six months of wrangling over which organisation does which bit. Dave
	__________________ Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right? Tony Szamboti: That is right

30th November 2018, 06:01 AM	#431
Archie Gemmill Goal Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 5,348	Originally Posted by zooterkin Apart from the fact that pig-****** Cameron was the one that dropped us into it. True... but at least he wasn't stupid enough to think its actually a good idea.
	__________________ "I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"

30th November 2018, 06:11 AM	#432
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 78,650	Originally Posted by Ian Osborne “We're not really interested in a transition deal, but we'll consider one to be kind to the EU.” David Davis 15 November 2016 “Indeed, [a trade deal] would take significantly less than two years. We hold all the cards. We will offer them a deal in response to their pleas for help.” Patrick Minford 14 June 2016 Whatever you think about Brexit, these two people live in a different universe than ours.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

30th November 2018, 06:33 AM	#433
Diablo Muse Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 648	May was a remainer, and I think she has deliberately negotiated a lousy deal which will be unacceptable to almost everyone, and which Parliament will vote down, as it will a 'no deal', leaving the way open for a second vote which she thinks the remainers will win.
Diablo Muse Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 648

30th November 2018, 06:42 AM	#434
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 15,727	Originally Posted by Diablo May was a remainer, and I think she has deliberately negotiated a lousy deal which will be unacceptable to almost everyone, and which Parliament will vote down, as it will a 'no deal', leaving the way open for a second vote which she thinks the remainers will win. What would be different if it was negotiated in good faith? How would you tell?

30th November 2018, 06:46 AM	#435
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 24,425	Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal Its sad when you find yourself longing for the days of Blair and Cameron compared to the current lot. I dunno. In the good ol days of politics, we had weird-looking politicians like Thatcher, Kinnock, Douglas Hurd etc... and Spitting Image had a field day making fun of them. Perhaps not coincidentally there also used to be real characters in Snooker such as Alex Higgins, Willie Thorne, Bill ~~Wer..Wurbi..Wirbunyak...~~ the fat Canadian beer guzzler. Then it became ultra boring after Tony Blair, with all politicians trying to look as manicured as possible, matching some focus-grouped photo-fit bland template. They had the same suits, the same mannerisms, answered questions the same way ("Linda, thank you for your question. Our answer is that we are giving you the choice, Linda!") and were basically dull, dull, dull. Spitting Image probably couldn't have worked in those days. But now, Spitting Image would have a new problem. How could it even manage to parody the parade of gargoyles and weirdos in politics today? Bojo, JRM, Gove, May, Corbyn. They are too ridiculous by themselves.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)