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Old 29th November 2018, 06:40 AM   #401
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
A serious answer about how it creates damaged individuals

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...dave-and-boris

see also George Monbiot's description of the Public School system, as a former pupil, and, he'd argue, victim.

In case you're unaware, British Public Schools are private and exclusive, with a pecking order.
Public schools and Oxbridge have a hell of a lot to answer for. Everything that is wrong with the UK in one little toxic bundle.
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Old 29th November 2018, 09:03 AM   #402
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Why not read the report yourself?

Key issue is the reporting is appalling on the No Deal scenarios - the BoE is clear that these are "worst-case scenarios" used for stress-test purposes, and not forecasts.
Because I know I do not have the required knowledge to understand if the modeling is reasonable, correct etc. It's why we have experts.

ETA: And I do know Mogg isn't an economic expert so I find it is puzzling he is being put up against the report. The BBC if it wants to question the report or give viewers and listeners informed opinion on the report they should be going to experts who have expert reasons to doubt the accuracy of the report.
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Old 29th November 2018, 09:53 AM   #403
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
There's an interesting piece of demographic warfare playing out now between May, who wants to hold the Brexit deal debate on the BBC, and Corbyn, who wants it on ITV. Corbyn says it's because he wants to watch the final of I'm A Celebrity... Get Me Out Of Here!, but that may also be political point scoring. So is May trying to convince the Remainers in their heartland of the sofa in front of the BBC, and is Corbyn going after the working class Tory vote?

Dave


I really don't understand the purpose of the debate if there is to be no public vote.

That makes bugger all sense.
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Old 29th November 2018, 10:01 AM   #404
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I really don't understand the purpose of the debate if there is to be no public vote.

That makes bugger all sense.
And that stands out from everything else Brexit related because...?

Dave
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Old 29th November 2018, 10:10 AM   #405
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
And that stands out from everything else Brexit related because...?

Dave

Oh, it doesn't.

We were lied to about what was possible
Leave cheated and has lost in court because of it
The economy will be wrecked whatever happens
Massive amounts of information have come to light since the vote to change the value of the proposition

The fact that those nominally in charge are arranging a TV debate that has no purpose whatsoever shouldn't surprise me, but it does.


The longer this goes on, the more ridiculous it becomes, the more the actors move away from reasonable course of action and the more the majority of the press ignore the above massively salient points, the more I come to believe that someone, somewhere, not a part of UK politics, is pulling strings.


It's just such an utterly mental scenario that if you read it in a novel you wouldn't believe it.

I sincerely hope that, in a decade, when we've sold the QE2 and it's compliment of jets, when we're down to one nuclear submarine, when the NHS has been eviscerated and we've all gained the 'right to work, that there will be prosecutions for treason. And yes, I appreciate that that isn't going to happen because we live in a world where, if you are rich and influential, you don't have to be concerned with the possibility of suffering the consequences of your actions.
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Old 29th November 2018, 10:13 AM   #406
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Because I know I do not have the required knowledge to understand if the modeling is reasonable, correct etc. It's why we have experts.

ETA: And I do know Mogg isn't an economic expert so I find it is puzzling he is being put up against the report. The BBC if it wants to question the report or give viewers and listeners informed opinion on the report they should be going to experts who have expert reasons to doubt the accuracy of the report.
Ah see, that's where you go wrong with your fancy pants 'experts' with their book learning and models based upon experience.

It's the gut feeling of 'a guy I met in the pub while drunk' that should be the basis for economic decisions!
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Old 29th November 2018, 10:31 AM   #407
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Because I know I do not have the required knowledge to understand if the modeling is reasonable, correct etc. It's why we have experts.
Key quote on the BoE No Deal scenarios (from their report):

Quote:
To assess the ability of the banking system to continue lending to households and businesses in the most adverse outcomes, the FPC has compared the scenario that banks were tested against in this year’s annual stress test with a worst-case scenario that could be associated with a ‘no deal no transition’ Brexit. The “disruptive” and the “disorderly” Brexit scenarios are therefore not forecasts for the economy in the event that the UK leaves the EU with no deal and no transition period.
Except that much of the press is presenting these as "BoE forecasts for No Deal".
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Old 29th November 2018, 02:09 PM   #408
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Originally Posted by TheSupermeerkat View Post
London will lose up to to €800bn (£700bn) in assets to rival financial hub Frankfurt by March 2019 as banks start to transfer business to the German city before Brexit day.

The lobby group Frankfurt Main Finance released the figure after it was confirmed that 30 banks and financial firms had chosen the city as the site of their new EU headquarters.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...are-for-brexit




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I complained to my financial adviser that my pension fund blance had nose-dived alarmingly (risk level=low) last month. He said this was true of the whole pensions fund market. Having reached a six-month high, it is now low. He said the British pension fund portfolios are mainly invested and traded in European markets anyway, and had little to do with the Brexit situation in the UK. Markets go up, markets come down.
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Old 29th November 2018, 02:14 PM   #409
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
There's an interesting piece of demographic warfare playing out now between May, who wants to hold the Brexit deal debate on the BBC, and Corbyn, who wants it on ITV. Corbyn says it's because he wants to watch the final of I'm A Celebrity... Get Me Out Of Here!, but that may also be political point scoring. So is May trying to convince the Remainers in their heartland of the sofa in front of the BBC, and is Corbyn going after the working class Tory vote?

Dave
It's the art of negotiation. It a game of psyche-playing. According to the theory, the person who sets the agenda, time and place has the upper hand. (As an analogy, your boss calling you to his office, not the other way round). Whoever wins this tactic of specifying location is the one in the stronger position and the other, the one who wants it most.

I would say this was Theresa May, desperate to inculcate persuade the British public she is the 'voice of reason' and to 'trust me'. Without Corbyn's co-operation, she will not get this prime time wide audience.
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Old 29th November 2018, 02:22 PM   #410
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Because I know I do not have the required knowledge to understand if the modeling is reasonable, correct etc. It's why we have experts.

ETA: And I do know Mogg isn't an economic expert so I find it is puzzling he is being put up against the report. The BBC if it wants to question the report or give viewers and listeners informed opinion on the report they should be going to experts who have expert reasons to doubt the accuracy of the report.
Rees-Mogg's background is in journalism, as former editor of the TIMES. Degree was in history and the arts.

Quote:
He later read History at Trinity College, Oxford, where he graduated with an upper second-class honours degree in 1991.[23][24] While at Oxford he became president of the Oxford University Conservative Association and was a member and frequent debater at the Oxford Union, where he was elected Librarian.[25][26] Reflecting on his time at university, he has admitted regret at not having studied Classics.[27]
wiki

Compare and contrast with hard economic sciences Philip Hammond. This guy does understand what the issues are.

Quote:
studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at University College, Oxford. <snip> He was educated at Shenfield School (now Shenfield High School) in Brentwood, Essex[7] where he was a classmate of Richard Madeley. He then read Philosophy, Politics and Economics at University College, Oxford, where he was an Open Scholar,[7] and graduated with a first-class honours degree.[8]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Hammond

PPE, is of course, the traditional route into politics. Plus Hammond has business experience.
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Old 29th November 2018, 02:26 PM   #411
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I really don't understand the purpose of the debate if there is to be no public vote.

That makes bugger all sense.
Just imagine if this was the sixteenth century. The losing side would have been hanged drawn and quartered as traitors, after a jolly ferocious civil war, with leaders' heads on stakes as an example to his (or 'her' in this case) followers.

That's what we don't get any more. Just a bunch of talking heads trading insults on tv.
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Old 29th November 2018, 02:29 PM   #412
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Oh, it doesn't.

We were lied to about what was possible
Leave cheated and has lost in court because of it
The economy will be wrecked whatever happens
Massive amounts of information have come to light since the vote to change the value of the proposition

The fact that those nominally in charge are arranging a TV debate that has no purpose whatsoever shouldn't surprise me, but it does.


The longer this goes on, the more ridiculous it becomes, the more the actors move away from reasonable course of action and the more the majority of the press ignore the above massively salient points, the more I come to believe that someone, somewhere, not a part of UK politics, is pulling strings.


It's just such an utterly mental scenario that if you read it in a novel you wouldn't believe it.

I sincerely hope that, in a decade, when we've sold the QE2 and it's compliment of jets, when we're down to one nuclear submarine, when the NHS has been eviscerated and we've all gained the 'right to work, that there will be prosecutions for treason. And yes, I appreciate that that isn't going to happen because we live in a world where, if you are rich and influential, you don't have to be concerned with the possibility of suffering the consequences of your actions.
It's a power struggle between the globalists and the Russians. They are all up to dirty tricks.
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Old 29th November 2018, 02:50 PM   #413
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Because I know I do not have the required knowledge to understand if the modeling is reasonable, correct etc. It's why we have experts.
I'm pretty sure you do, moreso than the politicians who pretend they understand things but are just petrified of looking..anything.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
ETA: And I do know Mogg isn't an economic expert so I find it is puzzling he is being put up against the report. The BBC if it wants to question the report or give viewers and listeners informed opinion on the report they should be going to experts who have expert reasons to doubt the accuracy of the report.
Mogg is too busy moving his 'interests' outside the very thing he is publicly endorsing to care.
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Old 29th November 2018, 05:15 PM   #414
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Apparently one of the members of a panel on a recent Newsnight 'debate' on Brexit has worked as an extra on some BBC show at some time in the past.
this means that she was a 'plant' as she was pro brexit and it sghows how biassed the BBC are.

It's being touted as 'Vicargate' as the panel member was dressed in a dog collar and claiming to be a Pastor in some American church organisation.
Apparently that is part of the conspiracy by the BBC to undermine the remainers.
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Old 29th November 2018, 05:28 PM   #415
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Apparently one of the members of a panel on a recent Newsnight 'debate' on Brexit has worked as an extra on some BBC show at some time in the past.
this means that she was a 'plant' as she was pro brexit and it sghows how biassed the BBC are.

It's being touted as 'Vicargate' as the panel member was dressed in a dog collar and claiming to be a Pastor in some American church organisation.
Apparently that is part of the conspiracy by the BBC to undermine the remainers.
Facebook page for her "church". That's her in all of the pictures.
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Old 29th November 2018, 05:42 PM   #416
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Apparently one of the members of a panel on a recent Newsnight 'debate' on Brexit has worked as an extra on some BBC show at some time in the past.
this means that she was a 'plant' as she was pro brexit and it sghows how biassed the BBC are.

It's being touted as 'Vicargate' as the panel member was dressed in a dog collar and claiming to be a Pastor in some American church organisation.
Apparently that is part of the conspiracy by the BBC to undermine the remainers.
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Old 30th November 2018, 02:18 AM   #417
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Apparently one of the members of a panel on a recent Newsnight 'debate' on Brexit has worked as an extra on some BBC show at some time in the past.
this means that she was a 'plant' as she was pro brexit and it sghows how biassed the BBC are.

It's being touted as 'Vicargate' as the panel member was dressed in a dog collar and claiming to be a Pastor in some American church organisation.
Apparently that is part of the conspiracy by the BBC to undermine the remainers.
What was the show? I watched that debate on You Tube, and one commenter had linked to a video saying the vicar was much better in this. It linked to a Fatboy Slim video with Christopher Walken dancing. I watched for a bit expecting the vicar to appear but slowly, with Corbyn-like awareness, it dawned on me that it was a joke. The vicar does have a passing resemblance to Walken, if you are a Brexit voter shortsighted. The moderator had no control on the debate as people on the panel and the “hand-picked” members of the public yelled at each other with the vicar nosiest of all not to mention most holier than thou.
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Old 30th November 2018, 02:43 AM   #418
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Games4EU guide to gaming Brexit.

A no deal or hard Brexit will likely compel British video games and interactive entertainment businesses to relocate parts (or all) of their operations to the EU to comply with market rules.

https://www.games4eu.com/brexit-guide

UK Gaming industry is more than 5 times the size of the fishing industry.

Verdict in the Pub last night was that it serves them right, making video games isn't 'proper work'

After we 'take it back' they can get 'proper' jobs.
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Old 30th November 2018, 03:19 AM   #419
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I complained to my financial adviser that my pension fund blance had nose-dived alarmingly (risk level=low) last month. He said this was true of the whole pensions fund market. Having reached a six-month high, it is now low. He said the British pension fund portfolios are mainly invested and traded in European markets anyway, and had little to do with the Brexit situation in the UK. Markets go up, markets come down.
This post has nothing to do with the post you quoted by the way.
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Old 30th November 2018, 03:25 AM   #420
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Why is that pretty much all Brexiteers seem to be such wholly cretinous individuals?

Watched Question Time last night and Tim Martin made me want to vomit, then stayed on for a bit of This Week and got Isabel Oakshott dripping with loathesomeness and Andrew Neil oozing scumbag from every pore while Portillo sneered at the world.

Whole looks at these people and people like Rees Mogg, BJ, Gove, etc and thinks 'they seem like upstanding individuals and well worth listening to'

Are there any Brexiteers who aren't *****?
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Old 30th November 2018, 03:35 AM   #421
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Portillo has carefully cultivated his 'eccentric' traveller image with his 'Railway Journeys' series.
People forget his politics.
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Old 30th November 2018, 03:44 AM   #422
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Why is that pretty much all Brexiteers seem to be such wholly cretinous individuals?

Watched Question Time last night and Tim Martin made me want to vomit, then stayed on for a bit of This Week and got Isabel Oakshott dripping with loathesomeness and Andrew Neil oozing scumbag from every pore while Portillo sneered at the world.

Whole looks at these people and people like Rees Mogg, BJ, Gove, etc and thinks 'they seem like upstanding individuals and well worth listening to'
The pop theory I read is that a third of the people have sociopathic tendencies and a other third of the people can't spot this.

Which leaves us, the final third, outnumbered by sociopaths and the credulous.

Which is why we're ******.
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Old 30th November 2018, 04:09 AM   #423
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
The pop theory I read is that a third of the people have sociopathic tendencies and a other third of the people can't spot this.

Which leaves us, the final third, outnumbered by sociopaths and the credulous.

Which is why we're ******.
The scary thing is that people like Rees-Mogg don't even pretend to hide it. I can never quite work out whether its simply that these guys are memorable and therefore become popular as celebrities or if people genuinely are so indoctrinated into the class system that they think people like that are their betters so must know what they are talking about. It's scary.

I mean you wouldn't put JRM in charge of your kids let alone the country.

Its sad when you find yourself longing for the days of Blair and Cameron compared to the current lot.

But then I am also amazed by just how ignorant people are of the issues. The number of people on QT last night who just spouted out 'WTO' as if it was an answer was astonishing - not one of them I bet could tell you the first thing about what that actually means.
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Old 30th November 2018, 04:20 AM   #424
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Rees-Mogg's background is in journalism, as former editor of the TIMES. Degree was in history and the arts.

wiki

Compare and contrast with hard economic sciences Philip Hammond. This guy does understand what the issues are.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Hammond

PPE, is of course, the traditional route into politics. Plus Hammond has business experience.
William Rees-Mogg , Jacob's father, was a former editor of The Times.
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Old 30th November 2018, 04:47 AM   #425
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post

Its sad when you find yourself longing for the days of Blair and Cameron compared to the current lot.
Apart from the fact that pig-****** Cameron was the one that dropped us into it.
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Old 30th November 2018, 05:10 AM   #426
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
There's an interesting piece of demographic warfare playing out now between May, who wants to hold the Brexit deal debate on the BBC, and Corbyn, who wants it on ITV. Corbyn says it's because he wants to watch the final of I'm A Celebrity... Get Me Out Of Here!, but that may also be political point scoring. So is May trying to convince the Remainers in their heartland of the sofa in front of the BBC, and is Corbyn going after the working class Tory vote?

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Why not a joint broadcast?
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Old 30th November 2018, 05:22 AM   #427
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Why not a joint broadcast?
I support that. Give them a joint each and roll the cameras.
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Old 30th November 2018, 05:26 AM   #428
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
UK Gaming industry is more than 5 times the size of the fishing industry.

Verdict in the Pub last night was that it serves them right, making video games isn't 'proper work'

After we 'take it back' they can get 'proper' jobs.
BBC Breakfast was in Newlyn this morning. Cue interview with fishing twonk wibbling on about "fairer access," "our waters," and other such guff. Obviously didn't mention anything about British boats fishing in other-EU waters.
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Old 30th November 2018, 05:29 AM   #429
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
I support that. Give them a joint each and roll the cameras.
I'd be more interested in them dropping MDMA and then hearing the real truth come tumbling out.
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Old 30th November 2018, 05:36 AM   #430
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Why not a joint broadcast?
Given the current deadlock on everything else related to Brexit, I suspect that there would have to be about six months of wrangling over which organisation does which bit.

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Old 30th November 2018, 06:01 AM   #431
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Apart from the fact that pig-****** Cameron was the one that dropped us into it.
True... but at least he wasn't stupid enough to think its actually a good idea.
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Old 30th November 2018, 06:11 AM   #432
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
“We're not really interested in a transition deal, but we'll consider one to be kind to the EU.”
David Davis
15 November 2016

“Indeed, [a trade deal] would take significantly less than two years. We hold all the cards. We will offer them a deal in response to their pleas for help.”
Patrick Minford
14 June 2016
Whatever you think about Brexit, these two people live in a different universe than ours.
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Old 30th November 2018, 06:33 AM   #433
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May was a remainer, and I think she has deliberately negotiated a lousy deal which will be unacceptable to almost everyone, and which Parliament will vote down, as it will a 'no deal', leaving the way open for a second vote which she thinks the remainers will win.
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Old 30th November 2018, 06:42 AM   #434
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Originally Posted by Diablo View Post
May was a remainer, and I think she has deliberately negotiated a lousy deal which will be unacceptable to almost everyone, and which Parliament will vote down, as it will a 'no deal', leaving the way open for a second vote which she thinks the remainers will win.
What would be different if it was negotiated in good faith? How would you tell?
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Old 30th November 2018, 06:46 AM   #435
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Its sad when you find yourself longing for the days of Blair and Cameron compared to the current lot.
I dunno. In the good ol days of politics, we had weird-looking politicians like Thatcher, Kinnock, Douglas Hurd etc... and Spitting Image had a field day making fun of them. Perhaps not coincidentally there also used to be real characters in Snooker such as Alex Higgins, Willie Thorne, Bill Wer..Wurbi..Wirbunyak... the fat Canadian beer guzzler.

Then it became ultra boring after Tony Blair, with all politicians trying to look as manicured as possible, matching some focus-grouped photo-fit bland template. They had the same suits, the same mannerisms, answered questions the same way ("Linda, thank you for your question. Our answer is that we are giving you the choice, Linda!") and were basically dull, dull, dull. Spitting Image probably couldn't have worked in those days.

But now, Spitting Image would have a new problem. How could it even manage to parody the parade of gargoyles and weirdos in politics today? Bojo, JRM, Gove, May, Corbyn. They are too ridiculous by themselves.
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Old 30th November 2018, 06:50 AM   #436
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Originally Posted by Diablo View Post
May was a remainer, and I think she has deliberately negotiated a lousy deal which will be unacceptable to almost everyone, and which Parliament will vote down, as it will a 'no deal', leaving the way open for a second vote which she thinks the remainers will win.
It's my hopelessly optimistic wish that she has made such calculations. But I think a more realistic possibility is that the vote will fail and either the Tories will try to pull the Norway option out of the bag. Still a net loss for remainers but maybe not the catastrophe of the no deal. But, my most pessimistic hunch is that no deal will be allowed to happen.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 30th November 2018, 06:59 AM   #437
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Originally Posted by Diablo View Post
May was a remainer, and I think she has deliberately negotiated a lousy deal which will be unacceptable to almost everyone, and which Parliament will vote down, as it will a 'no deal', leaving the way open for a second vote which she thinks the remainers will win.
That certainly seems a viable conspiracy theory at this juncture, but I'm not sure how consistent it is with her adamant refusal to countenance a second referendum. Do you think she's got to keep up that facade to forestall a Gotcha! moment when the hard line Brexiteers pick up on the theory and start throwing round the accusations?

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Old 30th November 2018, 07:10 AM   #438
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
That certainly seems a viable conspiracy theory at this juncture, but I'm not sure how consistent it is with her adamant refusal to countenance a second referendum. Do you think she's got to keep up that facade to forestall a Gotcha! moment when the hard line Brexiteers pick up on the theory and start throwing round the accusations?

Dave
She might change her mind after the down vote in parliament? Declare that the house is hopelessly divided and that she is left with no choice but to give a second referendum?
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Old 30th November 2018, 07:24 AM   #439
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Originally Posted by Amazer View Post
She might change her mind after the down vote in parliament? Declare that the house is hopelessly divided and that she is left with no choice but to give a second referendum?
She might, but once Theresa May has made up her mind that there will be not be any chance of a new vote, she...oh, she suddenly surprises people with another one.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 30th November 2018, 07:25 AM   #440
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Does a second referendum have enough votes to pass in Parliament?

Does anything?

If not then a no deal shambles seems the option that we get to by default. Which is why the Leavers were so keen to trigger Art 50 straight away before anyone could actually think through the consequences.
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