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Old 12th January 2019, 05:54 PM   #401
ynot
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
I do not think explanatory frameworks, in the form of the major faiths, unlike some other sources of hand-waving, are a sign of insanity.
What are the "other sources of hand-waving" that are a sign of insanity?

Besides, it's not just that the "explanatory frameworks of the major faiths" are "insane" (in a non-literal, non-medical health, strict diagnosis sense), but it's more/also that beliefs that fantasy/belief explanatory frameworks are the same as reality explanatory frameworks are "insane" (as previously defined).
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Old 12th January 2019, 06:02 PM   #402
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
But it does. Nothing's being "swept under the carpet".

The fact that people are told and thus commonly believe that their own thoughts and feelings can come from god, means that the perception that god is communicating with them really is generally NOT a symptom of neurological malfunction (aka, "mental illness"). It's a case of mis-attribution, not hallucination.
It's as valid to figuratively/non-literally say it's a "mental illness" as it is to figuratively/non-literally say "kill" as in saying "I could kill that whatever". Why do some have such an (unhealthy?) obsession with the strictness of health terms that they don't/can't accept they can be used figuratively/non-literally like any other words?
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Old 12th January 2019, 06:10 PM   #403
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
It's as valid to say it's a "mental illness" figuratively/non-literally as it is to say "kill" figuratively/non-literally as in saying "I could kill that whatever". Why do some have such an (unhealthy?) obsession with health terms they can't be used figuratively/non-literally?
Darat was/is literally bringing the DSM into it.

He said:

Quote:
Anyone who believes God speaks to them, reveals himself to them in actions in the world are suffering from at least a sympton of many mental illnesses as described by the DSM. The DSM however attempts to sweep that under the carpet because of how powerful religion still is in the USA.
He's not speaking figuratively here.
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Old 12th January 2019, 06:22 PM   #404
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Darat was/is literally bringing the DSM into it.
He said:
He's not speaking figuratively here.
Seems Darat refutes that . . .
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I haven’t.
Regardless, is it okay for me and others to figuratively/non-literally call religious beliefs "insane"?
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Old 12th January 2019, 06:25 PM   #405
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Regardless, Is it okay and valid for me and others to figuratively/non-literally call religious beliefs "insane"?
Of course. I do it all the time myself.
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Old 12th January 2019, 06:57 PM   #406
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
But it does. Nothing's being "swept under the carpet".

The fact that people are told and thus commonly believe that their own thoughts and feelings can come from god, means that the perception that god is communicating with them really is generally NOT a symptom of neurological malfunction (aka, "mental illness"). It's a case of mis-attribution, not hallucination.

What if someone tells you he has a relationship with Jesus, attributes some utterances from his own mouth as bing generated by him (without his own input), and claims Jesus is as real to him as his own wife? Not a hypothetical this one, this is a real dude!
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Old 12th January 2019, 06:58 PM   #407
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Of course. I do it all the time myself.
Thanks for finally providing a direct answer to the question .

Is it also okay to colloquially call the unhealthy use of a healthy brain an “insane” use of a brain?

For example: "It's insane for healthy brain to believe fantasy and reality are the same thing".
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Old 12th January 2019, 07:30 PM   #408
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
What if someone tells you he has a relationship with Jesus, attributes some utterances from his own mouth as bing generated by him (without his own input), and claims Jesus is as real to him as his own wife? Not a hypothetical this one, this is a real dude!
It's still totally different from "neurological dysfunction induced insanity".
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Old 13th January 2019, 04:55 AM   #409
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
But it does. Nothing's being "swept under the carpet".

The fact that people are told and thus commonly believe that their own thoughts and feelings can come from god, means that the perception that god is communicating with them really is generally NOT a symptom of neurological malfunction (aka, "mental illness"). It's a case of mis-attribution, not hallucination.
This is where you keep getting confused, or at least I'm assuming that's why because it is not addressing what I've been saying.

I mentioned and have been using the example of someone hearing someone else's voice in ďtheir head" and how because of the society and culture that the DSM arises from *who* you claim that voice is can factor into whether it is considered a symptom that could indicate illness or is to be disregarded as a possible symptom of an illness. In other words claim it is God you heard and you are A OK claim it is Churchill well that's now a problem.
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Old 13th January 2019, 05:04 AM   #410
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Darat was/is literally bringing the DSM into it.



He said:







He's not speaking figuratively here.
You are right I'm not. I'm following the strand of topic from Artho`s earlier posts about the DSM and using that as an authority and then exploring one line of criticism in how it defines and considers some symptoms of illness in reference to the majority religious beliefs in the USA.

The symptom I have been using (as a simplistic example) is that of hearing someone else's voice in your head.

You seem to want to talk about something over than that.
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Old 13th January 2019, 12:30 PM   #411
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
This is where you keep getting confused, or at least I'm assuming that's why because it is not addressing what I've been saying.

I mentioned and have been using the example of someone hearing someone else's voice in ďtheir head" and how because of the society and culture that the DSM arises from *who* you claim that voice is can factor into whether it is considered a symptom that could indicate illness or is to be disregarded as a possible symptom of an illness. In other words claim it is God you heard and you are A OK claim it is Churchill well that's now a problem.
But AGAIN, they don't actually claim it's "a voice in their head". It's not identical to a hallucination like that. And if they DO report something like that, it gets pinged as a symptom of a psychotic disorder.

See:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5216860/
Quote:
Representative Quotations Regarding Phenomenology of Psychic Voice-Hearing
Quote:
[Researcher: Have you ever heard the devil?]
Yes. Iíve heard the devil and the Angel of Death.
[Researcher: In the past [have you] heard the voice of God speaking?]
Yes, all the time!
[Researcher: is that typical of the length [of the voices]?]
yes, now I can get sentences. When I was younger, I only really got words but now sentences.
[Researcher: As far as the acoustic qualities...?]
As clear as your voice or as clear as my voice
When people talk about "voices" that are literally heard and not metaphorically/figuratively "heard", there are specific tests to figure that out.

Like this:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16901679
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Old 13th January 2019, 12:41 PM   #412
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
But AGAIN, they don't actually claim it's "a voice in their head". It's not identical to a hallucination like that. And if they DO report something like that, it gets pinged as a symptom of a psychotic disorder.



See:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5216860/









When people talk about "voices" that are literally heard and not metaphorically/figuratively "heard", there are specific tests to figure that out.



Like this:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16901679
You are still getting it wrong by not addressing what I am actually using as an example.

You seem not be aware that some people do indeed claim to hear God speaking to them as a voice in their head. I just did a search on Google ďgod spoke to me Youtube" and this is the very first result https://youtu.be/Akr_xBDpM_4 (Your results may of course differ.)

That is someone who not only heard god say a word or two!
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Old 13th January 2019, 01:05 PM   #413
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You are still getting it wrong by not addressing what I am actually using as an example.

You seem not be aware that some people do indeed claim to hear God speaking to them as a voice in their head. I just did a search on Google ďgod spoke to me Youtube" and this is the very first result https://youtu.be/Akr_xBDpM_4 (Your results may of course differ.)

That is someone who not only heard god say a word or two!
That's a dude recalling a memory of a single instance when he was 8 years old.

Again, when people talk about god speaking to them, they usually mean "in their heart" - NOT actual auditory hallucinations.

If they end up in a shrink's office and seem to be having auditory hallucinations, they're going to be evaluated as such regardless of if it's "god" they think the voice is or not.
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Old 13th January 2019, 01:39 PM   #414
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
That's a dude recalling a memory of a single instance when he was 8 years old.

Again, when people talk about god speaking to them, they usually mean "in their heart" - NOT actual auditory hallucinations.

If they end up in a shrink's office and seem to be having auditory hallucinations, they're going to be evaluated as such regardless of if it's "god" they think the voice is or not.

A lack of consistency here I think.

Non the less the dude I was talking about seems to qualify for a spot on the couch. He even had god telling him the name to call his own son! Not whisperings in the heart it seems.

As an extension to this which may add a note of levity into the discussion. Dude in question married a Chinese lady who was a born again also. She claimed to have heard Jesus talking to her before she met dude. She did not understand what was being said however, because she had no knowledge of English at the time. You cannot make this stuff up, Jesus chosen language is English!
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Old 13th January 2019, 03:40 PM   #415
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
That's a dude recalling a memory of a single instance when he was 8 years old.



Again, when people talk about god speaking to them, they usually mean "in their heart" - NOT actual auditory hallucinations.



If they end up in a shrink's office and seem to be having auditory hallucinations, they're going to be evaluated as such regardless of if it's "god" they think the voice is or not.
You are still not understanding. The sympton I am talking about is when people hear someone else's voice in their head. You seem to not understand that and I really don't know how else to say it!
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Old 13th January 2019, 03:42 PM   #416
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
A lack of consistency here I think.



Non the less the dude I was talking about seems to qualify for a spot on the couch. He even had god telling him the name to call his own son! Not whisperings in the heart it seems.



As an extension to this which may add a note of levity into the discussion. Dude in question married a Chinese lady who was a born again also. She claimed to have heard Jesus talking to her before she met dude. She did not understand what was being said however, because she had no knowledge of English at the time. You cannot make this stuff up, Jesus chosen language is English!
Everyone knows God is an Englishman or Morgan Freeman.
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Old 13th January 2019, 05:02 PM   #417
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You are still not understanding. The sympton I am talking about is when people hear someone else's voice in their head. You seem to not understand that and I really don't know how else to say it!
How is it different from what I'm talking about here?

Quote:
If they end up in a shrink's office and seem to be having auditory hallucinations, they're going to be evaluated as such regardless of if it's "god" they think the voice is or not.
??
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Old 13th January 2019, 05:51 PM   #418
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You are still not understanding. The sympton I am talking about is when people hear someone else's voice in their head. You seem to not understand that and I really don't know how else to say it!
A genuine auditory hallucination can indeed be a symptom of a psychotic disorder, though not necessarily. A majority of religious people do not report this symptom. It's a case of what I was saying before - that you can be religious and mentally ill, but you will be diagnosed with a psychotic disorder, not with religion.

Let me regale you with an anecdote from my own experience of being religious. As you know, I spent about a year and a half brainwashed by attending an evangelical Pentecostal church. During that time, I "heard" God speak to me on many occasions. Did I ever experience an auditory hallucination? I did not. Never once did I hear an actual voice. It was my own inner monologue - the head voice that we all have - but my thinking at the time was it was being influenced, if you like, by God. God was using my own brain to speak to me. Of course he wasn't really because he doesn't exist. But that's how I interpreted it at the time.

I would say that the proportion of religious people who actually experience genuine auditory hallucinations is pretty darn small. And I would speculate that it occurs to religious people at exactly the same rate as it does to non-religious people, or people whose religion doesn't include having a deity "speak" to them.

However, the common antitheist narrative (and the narrative being expressed in this thread) is that all the religious people who report "hearing" the "voice" of God are experiencing genuine psychotic auditory hallucinations. That is just not true.
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Old 13th January 2019, 05:58 PM   #419
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The OP specifically questioned whether religion is a mental health issue.
How would you characterise belief in magic fairies?
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Old 13th January 2019, 06:01 PM   #420
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
How would you characterise belief in magic fairies?
It's a false belief.
It's believing that something which is not true or real, is.
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Old 13th January 2019, 06:15 PM   #421
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
How would you characterise belief in magic fairies?
Irrational.
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Old 13th January 2019, 07:14 PM   #422
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It's a false belief.
It's believing that something which is not true or real, is.
Prove magic fairies aren't true or real .
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Old 13th January 2019, 07:15 PM   #423
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Irrational.
Are beliefs that gods are real equally irrational?
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Old 13th January 2019, 07:46 PM   #424
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Are beliefs that gods are real equally irrational?
Some are more irrational that others, but my personal feeling that any belief in an actual deity is irrational.
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Old 13th January 2019, 08:11 PM   #425
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I would like to add my own personal experiences to what Arthwollipot said in #418.

Uncountable times when I was a Christian Theist and afterwards , I felt the presence and guidance of "God." Yes. I believed that God spoke to me through my thoughts, giving me Ah-ha moments and sudden different perspectives. I never had an auditory hallucination of a voice of God speaking to me, but I took all those internal moments as God's voice.

My Theism evaporated under the light of self-observation. I saw how my feelings of the presence of God were projections; projections that I could. and still can, create at will. Prayer for me was always an opportunity to speak my heart and feelings the that One who I believed listened to me without judgement. Still when I'm troubled, I'll take a long walk and pour out my stuff in what isn't a dialog, but isn't just a monologue. The night sky, the trees become a placeholder for a sacred emptiness in which I can just be. Then more times then not I'll feel a warm accepting presence that "says" "everything is going to be fine." I know that this isn't from a super-personality out there but is a tapping of my own sense of transcendence.

Excuse me, but I wallow in the moment, all the while knowing that it's not Sky Daddy. In fact knowing my projection isn't some individual person apart from me enhances the embracing Unity. Because if it were the God of the Bible, I wouldn't be able to speak my heart fully to that biased wretch who wouldn't be listening but setting me on the scales of morality. I'm free to totally be myself to someone who isn't there at all and so has no personal filters.

Someone might ask why, since I can feel the Presence, I don't take that experience at face value as a reason to be a Theist. It's because in my New Age period when I was into Reiki and the like, I'd do Reiki with trees. And feel the personal spirit of a tree. But throughout that I observed what was happening. By relating to those trees as if they were persons, I was projecting a personal response. I saw through and beyond it. I understand how humans experience nature spirits, fairies, and the like. Social creatures as we are, we project our mode of relating to each other onto nature at large. We consolidated the many nature spirits into the Great Spirit. (And if that Great Spirit is a spirit instead of an individual super being, if that spirit is the quality of relating to all with an open heart, that's great.) (BTW I don't do Reiki anymore in part because observed what it was: personal attention creating an enhanced placebo.)

So Here's an example of "hearing a voice from God."

Many years back I lived in a small community that supported a residential school of massage therapy. Each morning at breakfast I'd have a little reading of a section from the Tao Te Ching at my table.

I don't remember what the issue was, but one day I told one of my breakfast companions that I was angry about something. He barked back at me that I should be ashamed of myself for being a hypocrite. Here I was reading from the Tao Te Ching every morning but I was really just an unenlightened fraud.

Well , I felt ashamed. I felt I should never do another breakfast reading. So I took a walk with my feelings. I spoke them out, again to that no one there at all. And a phrase popped into my mind. It wasn't an auditory voice, but it was sudden, not the sum of a train of thought. It was "The Tao is a load of dingoes kidneys!" If I'd still been a proper Theist, I'd have chalked this up to a voice from on high. It was a refreshing inspiration. I laughed all the way back to the campus.

This is the sort of thing that many believers and non-believers experience: moments of personal revelation. No one who has these is mentally ill or mentally insane.
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Old 13th January 2019, 08:36 PM   #426
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Very well said. Thank you for sharing your experience.
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Old 13th January 2019, 09:55 PM   #427
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Some are more irrational that others, but my personal feeling that any belief in an actual deity is irrational.
What makes one god belief more or less rational than another?

Can you give examples of two god beliefs and explain which is the most and least rational and why?

I think all god beliefs are equally irrational because they all believe in gods that are paranormal/supernatural (aka - impossible). I don't see that it matters what the story of the god belief is.
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Old 13th January 2019, 10:00 PM   #428
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
What makes one god belief more or less rational than another?

Can you give examples of two god beliefs and explain which is the most and least rational and why?
Why?
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Old 13th January 2019, 10:05 PM   #429
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Why?
Because . . .
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I think all god beliefs are equally irrational because they all believe in gods that are paranormal/supernatural (aka - impossible). I don't see that it matters what the story of the god belief is.
Without an explanation this is merely an assertion, not an answer . . .
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Some are more irrational that others, but my personal feeling that any belief in an actual deity is irrational.
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Old 13th January 2019, 10:06 PM   #430
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Some creation myths are less plausible than others.
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Old 13th January 2019, 10:07 PM   #431
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Some creation myths are less plausible than others.
I was asking if beliefs that mythical gods are real are equally irrational, not whether some god myths are more plausible than others.
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Old 13th January 2019, 10:11 PM   #432
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I was asking if all mythical gods are equally irrational, not god myths.
No, you were asking whether all god beliefs are equally irrational. I said that I felt that they were all irrational, but some appear to me to be more irrational than others.

If you're asking about irrational gods, then I'd say Zeus is a bit all over the place.
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Old 13th January 2019, 10:15 PM   #433
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I've always thought whatever sort of deity fits in the "god of the gaps" holes is the least irrational.
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Old 13th January 2019, 10:19 PM   #434
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
No, you were asking whether all god beliefs are equally irrational. I said that I felt that they were all irrational, but some appear to me to be more irrational than others.
No, this is what I asked . . .
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Are beliefs that gods are real equally irrational?
To be fair, I changed the post you responded to (as you were responding), to this to make it more correct . . .
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I was asking if beliefs that mythical gods are real are equally irrational, not whether some god myths are more plausible than others.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
If you're asking about irrational gods, then I'd say Zeus is a bit all over the place.
You can't get more "all over the place" than an omnipresent Christian god

ETA - The Zeus myth might be more irrational than some other god myths, but believing Zeus is a real god is no more or less irrational than believing any god is real.
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Old 13th January 2019, 10:26 PM   #435
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I've always thought whatever sort of deity fits in the "god of the gaps" holes is the least irrational.
Don't they all?

You are also conflating "Believing a god is real" and "God myths being more or less plausible than others".
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Old 13th January 2019, 10:40 PM   #436
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Don't they all?

You are also conflating "Believing a god is real" and "God myths being more or less plausible than others".
Most claimed deities are attached to specific claims about the nature of that deity that wildly conflict with the world as it exists. "Performs miracles" and stuff like that.
"Vague God that might have existed in the quantum foam and sparked the big bang" doesn't have that particular problem.

I wasn't conflating, by the way. I was just stating that I find the vague "god of the gaps" the least implausible.
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Old 13th January 2019, 11:04 PM   #437
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
As for hearing voices, auditory hallucinations while on the verge of sleep are extremely common. Has anyone reading this truly never thought they could hear a noise, a ringing phone someone speaking their name, etc while dropping off to sleep?
In my case, auditory hallucinations are what I remember, when I remember a person speaking to me. I hear their voice, accent etc. Similarly, occasionally, I hear music that I'm remembering.

The most common one for me is "hearing" my father's voice saying "brush your teeth" just before I go to bed.

Apparently he said that every night for ten years. No bloody wonder I remember it in his voice.

I would suggest that hearing voices AND believing them to be external to the person, when they're not, would be the insane version.
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Old 13th January 2019, 11:09 PM   #438
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Most claimed deities are attached to specific claims about the nature of that deity that wildly conflict with the world as it exists. "Performs miracles" and stuff like that.
"Vague God that might have existed in the quantum foam and sparked the big bang" doesn't have that particular problem.

I wasn't conflating, by the way. I was just stating that I find the vague "god of the gaps" the least implausible.
To be fair, your post didn't quote mine so I was wrong to assume it had anything to do with my "Are beliefs that gods are real equally irrational?" question, Sorry about that
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Old 13th January 2019, 11:13 PM   #439
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Sorry, but I must share this.

At Uni NSW a student was quite distressed because she used to keep "hearing voices in her head" while in the dorm. My former partner lived a couple of rooms away and kept hearing voices, and sometimes music coming from her toaster.

The culprit was a nearby radio transmission tower.

The toaster, always did it's thing.

The "voices in the head" went away when a cracked filling was replaced.

The toaster I can understand, nicrome wire wrapped around large pieces of mica, which were probably acting like a speaker.

The cracked filling? No idea. Capacitance maybe?
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Old 14th January 2019, 10:31 AM   #440
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
This is the sort of thing that many believers and non-believers experience: moments of personal revelation. No one who has these is mentally ill or mentally insane.
Oh, I imagine some of them also happen to be mentally ill ... but seeking and heeding these insights is not a sign of mental illness. At the same time these practices might still be seen as "irrational" for people who think they arrive at their beliefs strictly through the workings of their conscious, rational minds.
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