ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 25th April 2018, 08:42 AM   #161
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,642
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Quote:
Technically, Clinton lost something like 29 popular votes.
Not even technically, because:
65,853,514 (Clinton) - 62,984,828 (Trump) = 2,868,686


You aren't even talking about electoral votes, which are not popular votes:
304 (Trump) - 227 (Clinton) = 77

Where do you come up with 29 popular votes?
I think he's referring to the number of states that Trump won. (The actual number was 30.)

In a way he's accurate... Trump did win the popular vote in more states than Clinton. But its an irrelevant statistic when you're talking about overall popularity.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th April 2018, 08:49 AM   #162
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 30,491
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I think theprestige was talking about the 29 states Hillary lost.
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I think he's referring to the number of states that Trump won. (The actual number was 30.)
Ha.

Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
In a way he's accurate... Trump did win the popular vote in more states than Clinton. But its an irrelevant statistic when you're talking about overall popularity.
That's a definition of "popular vote" used by no one ever. After all, states don't vote for President.
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"Itís easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th April 2018, 09:04 AM   #163
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,214
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Ha.


That's a definition of "popular vote" used by no one ever. After all, states don't vote for President.
This map may be illuminating. And depressing for both sides.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 3fe757d0d7ed04f88d1a1b4aab316080.jpg (29.3 KB, 20 views)
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th April 2018, 09:08 AM   #164
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 30,491
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
This map may be illuminating. And depressing for both sides.
Sorry, illuminating of what?
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"Itís easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th April 2018, 09:10 AM   #165
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,214
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Sorry, illuminating of what?
When talking about popularity, overall and distribution.
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th April 2018, 09:14 AM   #166
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 26,640
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Not even technically, because:
65,853,514 (Clinton) - 62,984,828 (Trump) = 2,868,686


You aren't even talking about electoral votes, which are not popular votes:
304 (Trump) - 227 (Clinton) = 77

Where do you come up with 29 popular votes?
Each state holds a popular vote, to decide how its Electors will be allocated.

If the US actually elected the president according to the kind of popular vote you're talking about, the campaign strategies would look very different, and likely too the outcome.

Besides, the "muh popular vote!" meme just underlines how incompetent the Clinton campaign was. Stacking up superfluous votes in San Francisco and New York, while ignoring irreplaceable votes in key swing states, is not the sign of a strong Democrat candidate. No matter how much the urban rich and the urban poor might be in love with her politics.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th April 2018, 09:14 AM   #167
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 30,491
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
When talking about popularity, overall and distribution.
Well, theprestige was trying to make it about distribution, but as Segnosaur said, that's largely irrelevant. Land area doesn't vote for president, either.
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"Itís easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th April 2018, 09:15 AM   #168
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 66,914
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
When talking about popularity, overall and distribution.
Yes empty square miles look very impressive in Trumpland maps.
__________________
"Why do people say 'grow some balls'? Balls are weak and sensitive! If you really want to get tough, grow a vagina! Those things take a pounding!" ó Betty White
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th April 2018, 09:17 AM   #169
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 30,491
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Each state holds a popular vote, to decide how its Electors will be allocated.
We weren't talking about electoral votes. We were talking about popularity and public opinion.
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"Itís easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th April 2018, 09:18 AM   #170
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,642
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Sorry, illuminating of what?
For the democrats, it shows that large geographic areas with low population densities aren't buying into their message. For the republicans, it shows that densely populated urban areas aren't buying into their message.

Its probably a more illuminating (and alarming) for the republicans... as society becomes more and more urbanized they may have a harder and harder time winning the presidency. For the Democrats, they may need to alter their campaign a bit to appeal to rural voters, although that would be more for bragging rights (i.e. "we're popular everywhere") than anything else.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th April 2018, 09:21 AM   #171
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 26,640
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
We weren't talking about electoral votes. We were talking about popularity and public opinion.
And muh popular vote is a poor proxy for that, since it's confounded by the nature of the US electoral system.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th April 2018, 09:25 AM   #172
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,214
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
For the democrats, it shows that large geographic areas with low population densities aren't buying into their message. For the republicans, it shows that densely populated urban areas aren't buying into their message.

Its probably a more illuminating (and alarming) for the republicans... as society becomes more and more urbanized they may have a harder and harder time winning the presidency. For the Democrats, they may need to alter their campaign a bit to appeal to rural voters, although that would be more for bragging rights (i.e. "we're popular everywhere") than anything else.
This.

It's interesting because, due to the electoral college, we normally talk about blue states or red states. But it isn't the case that voting follows state lines... it follows big city versus town & countryside.

And it is a huge division. Basically the Republicans can't win a major city and the Democrats can't win anywhere that isn't a major city. Doesn't matter whether it's Georgia or New York or Washington, it holds true.
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th April 2018, 09:26 AM   #173
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 30,491
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And muh popular vote is a poor proxy for that, since it's confounded by the nature of the US electoral system.
I disagree. Thankfully, that was not the only measure of popularity I mentioned nor, really, the point I was making.
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"Itís easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th April 2018, 09:34 AM   #174
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,642
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And muh popular vote is a poor proxy for that, since it's confounded by the nature of the US electoral system.
Yes, the U.S. electoral system distorts the will of the voters, giving more political power to a racist redneck living in the back woods than it does to an urban voter.

The fact that it gives more power to one group over another isn't something to be proud of. It violates the concept of "all men are created equal". So contrats... you got a racist orangutan elected and all it took was a violation of the principles your country supposedly was founded on.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th April 2018, 09:48 AM   #175
ServiceSoon
Graduate Poster
 
ServiceSoon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,314
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
This.

It's interesting because, due to the electoral college, we normally talk about blue states or red states. But it isn't the case that voting follows state lines... it follows big city versus town & countryside.

And it is a huge division. Basically the Republicans can't win a major city and the Democrats can't win anywhere that isn't a major city. Doesn't matter whether it's Georgia or New York or Washington, it holds true.
Why is there such a stark difference in beliefs between city vs rural citizens?

City dwellers are forged in the fire of interpersonal relationships. That may cause them to be more empathetic to their fellow citizens. Which could explain why city dwellers would be more likely to embrace altruistic programs; such as universal healthcare.

That difference in empathy can be measured by fMRI....I believe that there may be other psychological variances of city dwellers when compared to citizens who live in rurual areas. Certainly the interactions you have, or more generically, your environment plays a role in forming your mental state.

Group cohesiveness may be more challenging for people who live in rural areas because of their mental states.

Now I'm at a cause and effect; correlation vs causation fork-in-the-road. Are those mental states determined by the environment (population density) that people live in or are people predisposed to those mental states which then determines where they live?
ServiceSoon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th April 2018, 10:03 AM   #176
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 30,491
Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
Why is there such a stark difference in beliefs between city vs rural citizens? [snip]
I'd summarize everything you said with "diversity".

[/offtopic]
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"Itís easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th April 2018, 11:13 AM   #177
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,214
Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
Why is there such a stark difference in beliefs between city vs rural citizens?

City dwellers are forged in the fire of interpersonal relationships. That may cause them to be more empathetic to their fellow citizens. Which could explain why city dwellers would be more likely to embrace altruistic programs; such as universal healthcare.

That difference in empathy can be measured by fMRI....I believe that there may be other psychological variances of city dwellers when compared to citizens who live in rurual areas. Certainly the interactions you have, or more generically, your environment plays a role in forming your mental state.

Group cohesiveness may be more challenging for people who live in rural areas because of their mental states.

Now I'm at a cause and effect; correlation vs causation fork-in-the-road. Are those mental states determined by the environment (population density) that people live in or are people predisposed to those mental states which then determines where they live?
Yes, it would definitely be best to accuse those who disagree as being mentally inferior. (Whilst claiming empathy!)
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th April 2018, 11:39 AM   #178
Lurch
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 387
Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
Why is there such a stark difference in beliefs between city vs rural citizens?

City dwellers are forged in the fire of interpersonal relationships. That may cause them to be more empathetic to their fellow citizens. Which could explain why city dwellers would be more likely to embrace altruistic programs; such as universal healthcare.

That difference in empathy can be measured by fMRI....I believe that there may be other psychological variances of city dwellers when compared to citizens who live in rurual areas. Certainly the interactions you have, or more generically, your environment plays a role in forming your mental state.

Group cohesiveness may be more challenging for people who live in rural areas because of their mental states.

Now I'm at a cause and effect; correlation vs causation fork-in-the-road. Are those mental states determined by the environment (population density) that people live in or are people predisposed to those mental states which then determines where they live?
Actually, it seems to me that city folk are less involved with their neighbors than are country folk. Almost paradoxically, larger numbers of people in close proximity tends to induce the erection of a bubble around one's self. In the country people practically know everyone for miles, and generally greet/acknowledge everyone in passing. In the big smoke pedestrians blindly pass each other on the sidewalks, and may know almost no one on the same floor of their apartment building.

As hinted to a bit earlier, it would seem to be that more liberal attitudes flourish where there is a concentration of people where diversity to at least some extent cannot be missed. In the rural expanses there tends to be a more monolithic population whose lack of exposure to a more diverse mixture of peoples and cultures does not engender the same tolerance and inclusivity.
Lurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th April 2018, 11:44 AM   #179
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 14,850
Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
Why is there such a stark difference in beliefs between city vs rural citizens?
I imagine the relative migration between the two has some effect.
__________________
Up the River!
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th April 2018, 12:57 PM   #180
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 9,899
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I'd summarize everything you said with "diversity".

[/offtopic]
I'd summarize it as "City people good, Rural people bad"
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th April 2018, 01:19 PM   #181
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,451
Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Actually, it seems to me that city folk are less involved with their neighbors than are country folk. Almost paradoxically, larger numbers of people in close proximity tends to induce the erection of a bubble around one's self. In the country people practically know everyone for miles, and generally greet/acknowledge everyone in passing. In the big smoke pedestrians blindly pass each other on the sidewalks, and may know almost no one on the same floor of their apartment building.
Studies show the opposite.This is a stereotype based on a misunderstanding. Urbanization acts like the internet - people associate through common interests, not geography. I don't know much about my neighbours; just enough to have a reciprocal understanding that we watch each other's pets when on vacation.

What I *do* associate with is other people with my interests, which just for example include comedy, so last weekend I was in an improv dropin with myself as the only white person, the rest were... not entirely sure... some Asians, two black women, a Sikh, Persian girl and I think two F->M trans but I didn't pry for full confirmation. One guy had MS and hadn't walked in 25 years, I'm taking him sailing next weekend.

Most of the friends I've made in adulthood were around the common interest of my kids' school and sports, and some of them live in entirely different cities, I would never have met them through random in-person collisions.



Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
As hinted to a bit earlier, it would seem to be that more liberal attitudes flourish where there is a concentration of people where diversity to at least some extent cannot be missed. In the rural expanses there tends to be a more monolithic population whose lack of exposure to a more diverse mixture of peoples and cultures does not engender the same tolerance and inclusivity.
Again, it's not entirely about geography. My wife is in a rural area (100 Mile House, BC - pop 1900), but her comfort with Muslims is because she has an Ismaili coworker, not because she has an Ismaili neighbour. If not for this common interest, they would never have met. She's a good case in point, actually, because they have 100 acres and have never seen their neighbours, much less met them.
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th April 2018, 01:27 PM   #182
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,451
Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
She's a good case in point, actually, because they have 100 acres and have never seen their neighbours, much less met them.
Worth adding: I have rural property in the southern gulf islands, which I use recreationally, but it's an island (Saturna) that prides itself on a high permanent resident population per property count. Something like 90% occupied year-round. With a few exceptions, they are an unfriendly bunch.

They moved there to get away from social obligations, bought 10 acre lots with hundred foot setbacks and 'private property protected by smith & wesson security' signs on their driveways. My attempts to be friendly with invented stories about running out of sugar are considered 'urban contamination'.

So this is a damned if you do damned if you don't frame up. If urbanites don't know our neighbours it's because we're uncaring (just like city folk, never trying to say hi) but if we try to reach out we're nosy (just like city folk, always trying to say hi).
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th April 2018, 02:31 PM   #183
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 57,576
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'd summarize it as "City people good, Rural people bad"
Many are- or more precisely idiots and tools. City people have (except for certain areas of cities) become much better and much more well informed than the rurals who want life to be like in the late 1800s but with stuff that was developed by people who knew how to build better stuff for the rurals to work with. Also the rurals are held back due to their hanging on to old tired religious nutty stuff. And p/o'd that city folk have mostly given up all but the showing up at church from time to time for weddings and similar and the Christmas/Easter pageants. They are behind the times and thanks to the idiocy of the Electoral College (yes I know what was originally claimed as the reason for it but many states have passed laws forcing electors to vote as they were elected for rather than as their consciences lead them (if they have one) which was the reason for electors originally. Time to close it down.
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th April 2018, 02:37 PM   #184
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 9,899
Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Many are- or more precisely idiots and tools. City people have (except for certain areas of cities) become much better and much more well informed than the rurals who want life to be like in the late 1800s but with stuff that was developed by people who knew how to build better stuff for the rurals to work with. Also the rurals are held back due to their hanging on to old tired religious nutty stuff. And p/o'd that city folk have mostly given up all but the showing up at church from time to time for weddings and similar and the Christmas/Easter pageants. They are behind the times and thanks to the idiocy of the Electoral College (yes I know what was originally claimed as the reason for it but many states have passed laws forcing electors to vote as they were elected for rather than as their consciences lead them (if they have one) which was the reason for electors originally. Time to close it down.
Wow. At least you're honest about your completely caricatured prejudices and tribalism.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th April 2018, 04:53 PM   #185
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 39,172
Must be why crime rates are so much higher in cities: all that enlightenment.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th April 2018, 04:58 PM   #186
applecorped
Rotten to the Core
 
applecorped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 18,059
When you think of Mexico City you think of enlightenment
__________________
All You Need Is Love.
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th April 2018, 07:22 PM   #187
ServiceSoon
Graduate Poster
 
ServiceSoon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,314
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Yes, it would definitely be best to accuse those who disagree as being mentally inferior. (Whilst claiming empathy!)
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'd summarize it as "City people good, Rural people bad"
Neither group is going to quit fighing for what they want. I despise personal attacks, especially in today's political environment. I'm not attempting to claim that one group is superior, good, bad or otherwise. I'm also not applying empathy to either group. I'm after understanding.

Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Actually, it seems to me that city folk are less involved with their neighbors than are country folk. Almost paradoxically, larger numbers of people in close proximity tends to induce the erection of a bubble around one's self. In the country people practically know everyone for miles, and generally greet/acknowledge everyone in passing. In the big smoke pedestrians blindly pass each other on the sidewalks, and may know almost no one on the same floor of their apartment building.

As hinted to a bit earlier, it would seem to be that more liberal attitudes flourish where there is a concentration of people where diversity to at least some extent cannot be missed. In the rural expanses there tends to be a more monolithic population whose lack of exposure to a more diverse mixture of peoples and cultures does not engender the same tolerance and inclusivity.
There was a concept in sociology that people who are prejudiced against a certain group are still capable of befriending and not apply those prejudiced views to somebody in that group who they become acquainted with. Get to know somebody and your generalizations / preconceived notions are usually false!
ServiceSoon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th April 2018, 08:07 PM   #188
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 57,576
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Wow. At least you're honest about your completely caricatured prejudices and tribalism.
Have you forgotten (I do not) their rants - frequently covered in the news - about their boys gonna be required to marry other boys .....or cows. and much related. And those/that were quotes with many similar at the time.
And then the teabaggers started up.

Note: I assure you I am not making that up.........
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th April 2018, 08:15 PM   #189
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 57,576
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Yes, it would definitely be best to accuse those who disagree as being mentally inferior. (Whilst claiming empathy!)
I have very little empathy for red staters and others who get more electoral votes because the feds used that as a bribe during at least in the beginning and then during or recently after the settling of the west and Midwest.
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2018, 05:12 AM   #190
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,214
Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
I have very little empathy for red staters and others who get more electoral votes because the feds used that as a bribe during at least in the beginning and then during or recently after the settling of the west and Midwest.
The time to complain about that is before an election. Not when griping about the results of one that was contested under clearly understood and agreed rules.
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2018, 07:52 AM   #191
Cabbage
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 326
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
The time to complain about that is before an election. Not when griping about the results of one that was contested under clearly understood and agreed rules.
Are you saying you never heard people complain about the electoral college before the 2016 election? If not, I can assure you you certainly would have heard them had you been paying attention.
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2018, 08:18 AM   #192
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,642
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
The time to complain about that is before an election. Not when griping about the results of one that was contested under clearly understood and agreed rules.
What makes you think that there weren't complaints about the electoral college BEFORE the 2016 election?

People have been pointing out problems with the electoral process for years before the electoral college helped a racist orangutan become president. Here's an example of an article from a 2012 newspaper: https://www.minnpost.com/eric-black-...ollege-problem

Now, the Demorats didn't talk about getting rid of the electoral college in their campaigns, but that's understandable: Its a subject that is rather complex and hard to grasp for many voters, it doesn't impact people on a day to day basis, and even if they did campaign and win on a promise "fixing our broken elections", changes might require altering the constitution, something that many/most states would be against (because they are controlled by republicans afraid of losing power, and/or are rural states afraid of losing influence.)
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2018, 08:37 AM   #193
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,214
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
What makes you think that there weren't complaints about the electoral college BEFORE the 2016 election?

People have been pointing out problems with the electoral process for years before the electoral college helped a racist orangutan become president. Here's an example of an article from a 2012 newspaper: https://www.minnpost.com/eric-black-...ollege-problem

Now, the Demorats didn't talk about getting rid of the electoral college in their campaigns, but that's understandable: Its a subject that is rather complex and hard to grasp for many voters, it doesn't impact people on a day to day basis, and even if they did campaign and win on a promise "fixing our broken elections", changes might require altering the constitution, something that many/most states would be against (because they are controlled by republicans afraid of losing power, and/or are rural states afraid of losing influence.)
Or, because received wisdom amongst the dems was that the electoral college gave her a lock on the presidency due to the "blue wall".
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2018, 08:53 AM   #194
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 9,899
Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Have you forgotten (I do not) their rants - frequently covered in the news - about their boys gonna be required to marry other boys .....or cows. and much related. And those/that were quotes with many similar at the time.
And then the teabaggers started up.

Note: I assure you I am not making that up.........
Have you forgotten antifa, black bloc riots and violence, gangs, mobs, hordes of bicyclists blocking traffic, etc.?

It's great when we can just cherry pick the bits we dislike most and confirm our biases. It really helps to rationalize irrational hatreds.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2018, 09:11 AM   #195
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,642
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Or, because received wisdom amongst the dems was that the electoral college gave her a lock on the presidency due to the "blue wall".
The electoral college gives little or no advantage to the Democrats, who's voter base centers on urban areas (which have large populations but receive less influence in the electoral college). On the other hand, it favors the republicans, since many of their voters live in states with a lower population density (but with relatively higher electoral college votes comparatively speaking.)

The democrats may have thought they had a lock on the election, but it wasn't because the electoral college gave them an advantage.

By the way, maybe we should listen to this guy's complaint:

The electoral college is a disaster for a democracy.
- Donald J Trump, November 2012

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...weet/93575326/
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2018, 09:54 AM   #196
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 66,914
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Or, because received wisdom amongst the dems was that the electoral college gave her a lock on the presidency due to the "blue wall".
Yeah right.

In the last couple decades it's the Democrats that won by popular vote but lost the election.

The only reason everyone thought Clinton would win was because until Comey's Oct surprise she was well ahead in the polls and Trump was (is) an incompetent buffoon.
__________________
"Why do people say 'grow some balls'? Balls are weak and sensitive! If you really want to get tough, grow a vagina! Those things take a pounding!" ó Betty White
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2018, 02:27 PM   #197
Delphic Oracle
Master Poster
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 2,369
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Have you forgotten antifa, black bloc riots and violence, gangs, mobs, hordes of bicyclists blocking traffic, etc.?

It's great when we can just cherry pick the bits we dislike most and confirm our biases. It really helps to rationalize irrational hatreds.
Are the Dems actively promoting antifa, black bloc riots, gangs, mobs, and hordes of bicyclists in their platforms?

Apples to oranges.

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2018, 04:35 PM   #198
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 57,576
Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Are you saying you never heard people complain about the electoral college before the 2016 election? If not, I can assure you you certainly would have heard them had you been paying attention.
And I definitely have been against the electoral college from my college days where I first heard about the ripoff of useful states by ones that got special treatment instead of equal treatment all the way from the beginning of the country.
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!

Last edited by fuelair; 26th April 2018 at 04:36 PM.
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2018, 06:20 AM   #199
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 30,491
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Are the Dems actively promoting antifa, black bloc riots, gangs, mobs, and hordes of bicyclists in their platforms?
Or giving them high-level positions in the White House?
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"Itís easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th April 2018, 01:23 PM   #200
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 21,217
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Or giving them high-level positions in the White House?

Or trying to pack the court system with them?

Or putting them in top administrative spots?
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
***********************************************
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." - Saul Bellow
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:13 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.