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Tags bomb detectors , dowsing , Gary Bolton , hal bidlack , Jim McCormick , Samuel Tree , sniffex

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Old 19th October 2012, 05:54 AM   #361
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Originally Posted by Dubious Dick View Post
Now we just have to hope that the outcomes of the trials are the correct ones! Shame we have to wait till next year, but since we started the UK campaign back in 2008, and thought it would be all over quickly, guess a few more Months on tenterhooks is just about bearable.
Well done, keep up the good work!
Quote:

Both McCormick and Bolton have hired heavy hitting Q.C. Barristers at what will be considerable cost estimated at potentially between £500 000 and £1 million each. If they are convicted, raises interesting questions regarding lawyers profiting from the proceeds of crimes!
I don't think that's anything new.
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Old 19th October 2012, 07:09 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Do you have any legislation about seizing the proceeds of crime? If so how much money did they make and do they have enough assets to pay the lawyers?
Yes, but innocent until proven guilty of course! We do not have the full details of the bail conditions which may well include some restrictions on their accounts, but assume that since not convicted (and may of course not be!), they are allowed to use funds for defences.

As to how much money they made, well certainly more than enough to be paying the lawyers. These Q.C. guys wouldn't take the cases if there was any doubt over payment!

PLEASE CAN WE BE VERY CAREFUL NOT TO MAKE ANY COMMENTS THAT MAY BE PRESENTED BY THE DEFENDANTS AS PREJUDICIAL!
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Old 19th October 2012, 09:08 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Dubious Dick View Post
Yes, but innocent until proven guilty of course! We do not have the full details of the bail conditions which may well include some restrictions on their accounts, but assume that since not convicted (and may of course not be!), they are allowed to use funds for defences.

As to how much money they made, well certainly more than enough to be paying the lawyers. These Q.C. guys wouldn't take the cases if there was any doubt over payment!

PLEASE CAN WE BE VERY CAREFUL NOT TO MAKE ANY COMMENTS THAT MAY BE PRESENTED BY THE DEFENDANTS AS PREJUDICIAL!
I have no law degree, but I am guessing that such comments have to be available to the jury pool. I cannot imagine that very many potential jurors would be reading this thread.

But I will follow your advice and withhold my opinions. On the other hand, that particular horse may have left the barn several pages ago.
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Old 19th October 2012, 09:29 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
I have no law degree, but I am guessing that such comments have to be available to the jury pool. I cannot imagine that very many potential jurors would be reading this thread.

But I will follow your advice and withhold my opinions. On the other hand, that particular horse may have left the barn several pages ago.
Just to reassure you, we have some expert advice on the legal issues related to potential prejudicing of the trials. That advice suggests that we should be safe as long as we make no prejudicial comment from the point at which charges were actually laid i.e. July this year. As you say, this forum would not necessarily present a problem. The real problem would be if any mainstream media reported anything that may be considered prejudicial. However, we have given assurances that we will be cautious and only report the basic facts of the progress of the legal cases. Hence, it is unlikely that we will be saying much more before the outcomes of the trials next year.

There may well be news from other parts of the World regarding ongoing use of the various devices in places such as Mexico, Thailand and elsewhere. We have high hopes that news of the legal cases in the U.K. will help to bring an end to their use!

All best, DD
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Old 22nd October 2012, 12:20 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by Dubious Dick View Post
Just to reassure you, we have some expert advice on the legal issues related to potential prejudicing of the trials. That advice suggests that we should be safe as long as we make no prejudicial comment from the point at which charges were actually laid i.e. July this year. As you say, this forum would not necessarily present a problem. The real problem would be if any mainstream media reported anything that may be considered prejudicial. However, we have given assurances that we will be cautious and only report the basic facts of the progress of the legal cases. Hence, it is unlikely that we will be saying much more before the outcomes of the trials next year.

There may well be news from other parts of the World regarding ongoing use of the various devices in places such as Mexico, Thailand and elsewhere. We have high hopes that news of the legal cases in the U.K. will help to bring an end to their use!

All best, DD
Thank you.

I will follow the trial and hope that swift and sure justice is served.
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Old 28th October 2012, 12:24 AM   #366
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DD,

Thank you for the update! You and Techowiz have done outstanding work at encouraging the government of the UK to look into the sale of these devices.
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Old 15th January 2013, 01:21 PM   #367
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While we await the commencement of trials in March, Techowiz has been detecting again and has discovered that Mira Telecom in Romania have found it difficult to give up dodgy dowsing rod detectors.

For those not familiar with the full story, Mira Telecom, headed up by Stelian Ilie, were in close partnership with James McCormick. Seems he invested some of his money from the Iraq sales of the ADE651 in Mira, and for a time he was a Director of a subsidiary of Mira.

Mira were active in selling the ADE651, including units to Constanza Airport in Romania. We tried alerting Stelian Ilie to the fact that the ADE651 was bogus, but instead of taking a responsible attitude like the respectable company he claimed they were and maybe checking out what we had to say, he defended the ADE651 and made various legal threats to Techowiz and me. Not that any came to fruition.

However, when the pressure got too much they ended their formal ties with McCormick and the ADE651, but never came clean and admitted they had been wrong to deal with it.

After all that you would think they would leave dodgy dowsing products alone. But no. Techowiz recently discovered a photograph of someone from MIra giving a presentation of the DKL Lifeguard which is a variant of the same bogus dowsing family that claims to be able to find people at distance and in, for example, collapsed buildings. The photograph is dated June 2012.

As Techowiz recalled, Dale Murray at Sandia Labs had de-bunked the DKL Lifeguard some time before Mira were clearly happily trying to sell it.

Do they never learn.

For more information on this see Techos Blog

HERE

One reason for spreading this news is that Stelian Ilie and Mira have done a good job of sterilising searches so that their involvement with these bogus products is buried deep. Hence we want to try to make sure that future searches will give anyone dealing with them the knowledge that they are not so squeaky clean. Not least because it seems Mira have managed to access European funding for various projects.

On a separate note it appears that the efforts of Carl have paid off and that Chuckie 'Chuckles' Christensen has shut down H3Tec and is no longer selling his wonder detecting and prospecting devices. A visit to his website shows a landscape where he claims he is now mining. Of course, we wait with baited breath for news that he has hit the mother lode!

Congrats to Carl and we are pleased to have played a small part in spreading the word about Chuckie and his didgy claims for the capabilities of H3tec. Sadly there are still many LRLs (Long Range Locators) on the market, mainly aimed at desperate prospectors, but at least Chuckie and his claims to be working with the military are now toast. Yee Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!
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Old 24th January 2013, 12:30 AM   #368
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Physicists show bomb detecting dowsing rods still useless.

The MIT Technology Review covered the findings, or lack thereof, from physicists in Mexico who found the $20,000 GT200 explosives, drug, and weapon detectors sold to militaries and police around the world to be useless.

"Physicists Prove “Dowsing” Bomb Detectors Useless in Double Blind Trial - A widely used detector that relies on dowsing to find explosives and drugs has finally been proven ineffectual by physicists in Mexico" http://www.technologyreview.com/view...e-blind-trial/

Frankly, I would have thought the scientists at MIT would know better than to say this proves a negative, but it certainly does add to the stack of evidence showing that when dowsing rods are used in double-blind tests, the only work at a rate consistent with random guessing.

The full report of the study can be found here: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1301.3971v1.pdf
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Old 24th January 2013, 04:13 AM   #369
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Aye, but will this make any difference to the sales of this dowsing rod, considering the very nice 'back-handers' I have no doubt are given to certain officials for allowing the contract for the sale of this dowsing rod to continue?

And no, I have no evidence to back up my assertation, other than worldly knowledge and Occam's razor.
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Old 24th January 2013, 05:23 AM   #370
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Wow you have to wonder who actually buys them.
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Old 24th January 2013, 07:50 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by Biff Starbuck View Post
Frankly, I would have thought the scientists at MIT would know better than to say this proves a negative
Why? There's nothing wrong with saying you can prove a negative, since you can. You often can't prove a general negative, but there are plenty of more specific negatives that can be easily proved. For example, while I can't prove that there are no socks anywhere in the universe, I could very easily prove that there is not a sock in my drawer.

In this case, there is a very specific claim being made - that this device will detect certain things under certain conditions with a certain reliability. While the study doesn't prove that dowsing does not ever work under any circumstances, it does prove that this specific device does not do what it is claimed to do, and so proves a negative.
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Old 24th January 2013, 09:07 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by Cuddles View Post
Why? There's nothing wrong with saying you can prove a negative, since you can. You often can't prove a general negative, but there are plenty of more specific negatives that can be easily proved. For example, while I can't prove that there are no socks anywhere in the universe, I could very easily prove that there is not a sock in my drawer.

In this case, there is a very specific claim being made - that this device will detect certain things under certain conditions with a certain reliability. While the study doesn't prove that dowsing does not ever work under any circumstances, it does prove that this specific device does not do what it is claimed to do, and so proves a negative.
Thank you. I have attempted to make exactly the same point many times. I usually fail, but this says it well.
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Old 24th January 2013, 09:27 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by Cuddles View Post
Why? There's nothing wrong with saying you can prove a negative, since you can. You often can't prove a general negative, but there are plenty of more specific negatives that can be easily proved. For example, while I can't prove that there are no socks anywhere in the universe, I could very easily prove that there is not a sock in my drawer.

In this case, there is a very specific claim being made - that this device will detect certain things under certain conditions with a certain reliability. While the study doesn't prove that dowsing does not ever work under any circumstances, it does prove that this specific device does not do what it is claimed to do, and so proves a negative.
Of course, we can count on the dowsers moving the goal posts and claim that such studies are not valid unless they test whether dowsing is possible under uncontrolled conditions. Which, of course, is not a test of anything except maybe gullibility.
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Old 24th January 2013, 09:58 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by aggle-rithm View Post
Of course, we can count on the dowsers moving the goal posts and claim that such studies are not valid unless they test whether dowsing is possible under uncontrolled conditions. Which, of course, is not a test of anything except maybe gullibility.
Oh, let me try!

*ahem*

Well, you see, dowsing is not about the device, per se, but the interaction of the device with the latent extrasensory danger perception in the brain. In these tests there is no actual danger, therefore the sense is never triggerred, so of course these tests will fail.

TO properly test this, you need to use real bombs set to go off, to provide an actual danger that will trigger the brain's latent ESP to interact with the dowsing device. OF course, we cannot in good conscioence condone such dangerous testing, and you skeptics shoudl feel ashamed of demanding that people be put in harm's way just because of your closed-mindedness!


So, is that pretty close?
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Old 24th January 2013, 09:59 AM   #375
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Why are they doing these tests?
Hasn't the bloke been done for fraud recently over the fact they these things do not do what he said they did?
I could have sworn that was on the news not that long ago...
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Old 24th January 2013, 10:11 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Oh, let me try!

*ahem*

Well, you see, dowsing is not about the device, per se, but the interaction of the device with the latent extrasensory danger perception in the brain. In these tests there is no actual danger, therefore the sense is never triggerred, so of course these tests will fail.

TO properly test this, you need to use real bombs set to go off, to provide an actual danger that will trigger the brain's latent ESP to interact with the dowsing device. OF course, we cannot in good conscioence condone such dangerous testing, and you skeptics shoudl feel ashamed of demanding that people be put in harm's way just because of your closed-mindedness!


So, is that pretty close?

Does the device maker claim that it uses a form of dowsing? I thought they claimed that the electronics were detecting the bomb and swinging the antennae, however Randi (and others) showed that it wasn't doing that, but was really ideomotor effect therefore dowsing/woo.
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Old 24th January 2013, 10:25 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by Cuddles View Post
Why? There's nothing wrong with saying you can prove a negative, since you can. You often can't prove a general negative, but there are plenty of more specific negatives that can be easily proved. For example, while I can't prove that there are no socks anywhere in the universe, I could very easily prove that there is not a sock in my drawer.

In this case, there is a very specific claim being made - that this device will detect certain things under certain conditions with a certain reliability. While the study doesn't prove that dowsing does not ever work under any circumstances, it does prove that this specific device does not do what it is claimed to do, and so proves a negative.
Good point. Since the salesmen have already claimed a level of reliability, that can be shown as false. Thanks!
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Old 24th January 2013, 10:35 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Why are they doing these tests?
Hasn't the bloke been done for fraud recently over the fact they these things do not do what he said they did?
I could have sworn that was on the news not that long ago...
I do not believe any of the recent sellers who were arrested in the UK have been convicted, just arrested and charged. When the Sniffex bunch were arrested in the US a few years ago, the convictions were for stock market violations rather than selling a dangerously fraudulent product.

In the text of the study, the authors describe the Mexican judicial system trying to evaluate the reliability of the devices since the government has been using them as the basis for searches and arrests for drugs and weapons. While the police and military had claimed the purchase agreements they signed prohibited them from letting the GT200 from be tested, fortunately the judge did not care about the contracts and ordered them to participate in testing to see if the products worked as claimed.
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Old 24th January 2013, 05:15 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post

TO properly test this, you need to use real bombs set to go off, to provide an actual danger that will trigger the brain's latent ESP to interact with the dowsing device. OF course, we cannot in good conscience condone such dangerous testing, and you skeptics should feel ashamed of demanding that people be put in harm's way just because of your closed-mindedness!


So, is that pretty close?
First off, if I ever go to the dark side, I'll hire you as a copy writer.

Unfortunately the con-artist salesman often demonstrates the miraculous power of the device by telling police officers to hide some bullets in the conference room before he walks in and "electrically dowses" the location of the ammo. No danger there, but remarkable success.
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Old 24th January 2013, 07:24 PM   #380
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Forgive me for what's bound to be a silly question, but by what process are dousing rods supposed to work? I know that they don't actually work, but I fail to see how what appear to be two simple sticks of what is apparently unremarkable metal is supposed to enable one to find water or anything else for that mater.
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Old 24th January 2013, 08:25 PM   #381
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magic


literally
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Old 24th January 2013, 09:21 PM   #382
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They work by quantum.
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Old 24th January 2013, 10:07 PM   #383
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Nuka-Cola Quantum?
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Old 24th January 2013, 10:23 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
Forgive me for what's bound to be a silly question, but by what process are dousing rods supposed to work? I know that they don't actually work, but I fail to see how what appear to be two simple sticks of what is apparently unremarkable metal is supposed to enable one to find water or anything else for that mater.
In this case, they claim the freely swinging metal rod, which seems to be made from a radio antenna, points to the materials due to substances being para- or dia- magnetic. As far as I understand it, most molecules will either weakly be attracted or repelled by a strong magnetic field, but the effect is generally too small to notice. In this case, with the distances involved, no power source in the GT200, and it emitting no measurable electromagnetic field, the chance the antenna is moving because of the magnetic field of gunpowder several meters away is essentially zero.

Other dowsers have claimed things like nuclear resonance or quantum fields.

Randi has written well about how people who experience dowsing feel a compelling NEED to have it be true after they witness the rod "work" in their own hands. For example, as Ladewig said, a salesman could ask some policemen to hide ammunition in a room. Either while watching them hide it, or not watching but guessing obvious hiding places, he shows it works. Then the salesman gives the rod to a police officer. The officer walks by the bullets holding the dowsing rod, and because of the ideomotor effect, he unconsciously tilts his hands slightly because he is thinking about where the ammunition is hidden. The officer knows he did not intentionally point the rod, so will often accept the salesman's contention that the rod pointed that way because it detected the gunpowder. It seems if you get someone to trick themselves with an illusion, it is very hard to convince them later that it was only an illusion because they know they weren't trying to trick themselves.

Since dowsing rods seem to work, whether sticks, bent wires, or $20,000 empty plastic boxes like the GT200, people then try to rationalize after the fact why it worked - magnets, electrons, waves, energy fields, like attracting like, magic, or "it just works." All of the explanations I have seen from believers are just scientific sounding gobbledygook, not coherent or plausible theories.
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Old 24th January 2013, 11:08 PM   #385
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Thanks for the reply, Biff. It sounds too obvious and stupid to me.

To be entirely blunt, it's hard to believe that anyone would take such nonsense seriously.
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Old 25th January 2013, 12:24 AM   #386
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It's not really that hard to believe, considering how many people take homeopathy seriously.
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Old 25th January 2013, 01:47 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by Stomatopoda View Post
It's not really that hard to believe, considering how many people take homeopathy seriously.
That's it!!! I was going about it all wrong. The device is not weak because it has no electronics or power source, and it wasn't an empty plastic box like we thought. The GT200 is so powerful exactly because it is a box filled with homeopathic air! The more dilute the homeopathic solution is, the more effect it has. What looked like ordinary air was really super-dilute (super powerful) homeopathic air with a memory of explosive and drug molecules, which is how it is strong enough to be magnetically attracted to various items from up to several kilometers away!!

Bravo!!
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Old 25th January 2013, 03:13 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by Biff Starbuck View Post
That's it!!! I was going about it all wrong. The device is not weak because it has no electronics or power source, and it wasn't an empty plastic box like we thought. The GT200 is so powerful exactly because it is a box filled with homeopathic air! The more dilute the homeopathic solution is, the more effect it has. What looked like ordinary air was really super-dilute (super powerful) homeopathic air with a memory of explosive and drug molecules, which is how it is strong enough to be magnetically attracted to various items from up to several kilometers away!!

Bravo!!
You could manufacture these by buying some firecrackers and then taking drugs until setting off some flashbangs in the factory seems like a fun idea. Then have someone seal the lids on the plastic cases while the noise of the explosions die away. As the infinitessimal vibrations subside, the memory of the drug-inspired explosions in the air inside each box makes it stronger and stronger in homeopathic terms. Then it's just steps 3) ????? and 4) Profit all the way.
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Old 25th January 2013, 03:46 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
To be entirely blunt, it's hard to believe that anyone would take such nonsense seriously.
For a textbook case of how a perfectly intelligent, rational person can convince themselves that dowsing works, see DowserDon's thread in the MDC subforum:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=226770
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Old 25th January 2013, 04:38 AM   #390
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To clarify.

Trials of the principals behind the ADE651, GT200, ALPHA6 and XK-9 variants commence early March at the Old Bailey in London.

First up before the beak will be James McCormick who 'invented' the ADE651.

As poiinted out above, despite Randi first exposing this fraud in the guise of the Quadro Tracker back in 1995, and bringing other variants like the SNIFFEX and ADE651 to our attention, no one has ever been convicted of fraud in relation to these devices. The Quadro Tracker principals got off such charges in the U.S. using the defence that they genuinely believed it to work.

We are of course hoping for different results in the U.K. trials.

Anyone interested in the history of these devices in recet times is welcome to wade through the following which I put together as part of our campaign here in the U.K. to put an end to the trade.

I must confess that very little of the research was original as I hope is made clear. Just an aggregation of the information available froms sources such as Randi.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/51676711/History-Save-2

Anyone not familiar with this tale of woe and woo please note that great credit must go to Techowiz, without whom the U.K. prosecutions may well never have come to fruition.

P.S. We have been asked not to publish the report from Mexico on any U.K. blogs so as not to potentially prejudice the trials. It was forwarded to us some days ago by Andres Tonini in Mexico, who has fought a long battle to end the use of these devices there.
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Old 25th January 2013, 02:48 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by Biff Starbuck View Post
For example, as Ladewig said, a salesman could ask some policemen to hide ammunition in a room. Either while watching them hide it, or not watching but guessing obvious hiding places, he shows it works.
There are often surprisingly few places an unimaginative person can hide bullets in a conference room. In any case, if there are six policemen in the room who know the hiding place, then it doesn't take much practice to gain clues by watching their faces as one walks around the room.
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Old 25th January 2013, 03:04 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
Thanks for the reply, Biff. It sounds too obvious and stupid to me.

To be entirely blunt, it's hard to believe that anyone would take such nonsense seriously.
And yet such devices were purchased by the FBI, several city police departments, a few state police agencies, and several militaries around the world - at prices between $500 and $20,000 per unit! Although it is possible that some of the $20,000 military purchases were made through bribes and kickbacks.

As the old joke says, "What's the difference between genius and stupidity?"

Or as Will Rogers once observed "there is nothing so stupid as an educated man once you get him off the thing he was educated in."


ETA: Feynman - "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. " Very few people understand how universal this aphorism is.
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Old 25th January 2013, 03:12 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by Dubious Dick View Post
no one has ever been convicted of fraud in relation to these devices. The Quadro Tracker principals got off such charges in the U.S. using the defence that they genuinely believed it to work.
Bear traps.

We cannot use landmines, so we put these people in a field filled with buried bear traps and let them "Quadro Track" their way out.
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Old 25th January 2013, 03:55 PM   #394
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Make that up to $65000 U.S.D. per unit in Iraq for the ADE651 making a total of $85 million, or a little bit more to go around!
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Old 28th January 2013, 03:09 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by Dubious Dick View Post
Make that up to $65000 U.S.D. per unit in Iraq for the ADE651 making a total of $85 million, or a little bit more to go around!
Is there any information on anyone who has been killed by an explosive while using one of these expensive dowsing rods to find explosives?
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Old 28th January 2013, 03:40 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by Reno View Post
Is there any information on anyone who has been killed by an explosive while using one of these expensive dowsing rods to find explosives?
BBC reports tallied at least 300 deaths in the Green Zone while they were the only 'detection' method in use by the Iraqis at checkpoints. We think this is an absolute minimum, notwithstanding injuries to add to the toll.

Believe that there have been deaths of users or security forces in vicinity of the devices being used in Thailand. Further details here:


http://sniffexquestions.blogspot.co.uk/


Along with reports of miscarriages of justice reported in Mexico, it all adds up
to a sorry history of tragedy due to fraud, corruption and stupidity.

These were the reasons why Techowiz, I and others fought so hard and so long to bring to attention of the UK and International authorities, and why we are hoping for the right results at the forthcoming trials. However, as oft repeated, had Randi not brought to our attention we may well not be where we are today.

Anyone from Germany reading this, we would be interested to know if there is any news regarding HEDD1 and Unival GmbH? The HEDD1 is the latest incarnation off SNIFFEX.
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Old 28th January 2013, 09:10 PM   #397
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OK, how about this.

When they come to a police station to demonstrate it, interrupt the demonstration with an alarm and evacuate the building in the guise of a bomb threat. Then ask Mr. Salesman to go back into the building to find the ticking bomb.
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Old 28th January 2013, 11:55 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
OK, how about this.

When they come to a police station to demonstrate it, interrupt the demonstration with an alarm and evacuate the building in the guise of a bomb threat. Then ask Mr. Salesman to go back into the building to find the ticking bomb.
No you do not evacuate the building, you tell them to find the bomb first, then evacuate the building.
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Old 31st January 2013, 07:29 PM   #399
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No. You evacuate everyone except Mr.Salesman from the building (locking the doors behind you).
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Old 1st February 2013, 12:41 AM   #400
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Mexico City blast at state oil firm Pemex kills 25

While the explosion at the Pemex building has not been identified as a bombing, it seems very possible. Given that Pemex has been identified as a customer of the GT200, hopefully their headquarters building was not "protected" by it, or this will add at least 25 more to the death toll from these criminally dangerous devices.
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