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Tags bomb detectors , dowsing , Gary Bolton , hal bidlack , Jim McCormick , Samuel Tree , sniffex

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Old 1st February 2013, 02:04 PM   #401
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
No you do not evacuate the building, you tell them to find the bomb first, then evacuate the building.
I suggested the plan to see what kind of excuses Mr. Salesman would give if he really believed his life depended on the accuracy of the device. I grew up in a small town so getting 6-8 police offices to walk outside for a few minutes would not be all that inconvenient.


I still prefer the bear-trap test. You could even put gunpowder near the bear traps to make it even for the device to "detect" the danger.


ETA: After all, if a ballistic vest salesman showed up at a police station, it would not be unheard of to ask the salesman to wear the vest during a very-controlled demonstration. I see nothing wrong with the bear trap test. The salesman/con-artist is asking purchasers to put their lives on the line based on the results of this device; asking the salesman to put his legs on the line is not unfair.
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Old 1st February 2013, 04:09 PM   #402
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
I suggested the plan to see what kind of excuses Mr. Salesman would give if he really believed his life depended on the accuracy of the device. I grew up in a small town so getting 6-8 police offices to walk outside for a few minutes would not be all that inconvenient.


I still prefer the bear-trap test. You could even put gunpowder near the bear traps to make it even for the device to "detect" the danger.


ETA: After all, if a ballistic vest salesman showed up at a police station, it would not be unheard of to ask the salesman to wear the vest during a very-controlled demonstration. I see nothing wrong with the bear trap test. The salesman/con-artist is asking purchasers to put their lives on the line based on the results of this device; asking the salesman to put his legs on the line is not unfair.
The problem is that they abolished the death penalty (in most civilised places) a long time ago. So killing Mr Salesman for selling devices that do not work is not a good idea. Setting up a fair test or prosecuting him is a far better idea.
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Old 2nd February 2013, 09:06 AM   #403
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
The problem is that they abolished the death penalty (in most civilised places) a long time ago. So killing Mr Salesman for selling devices that do not work is not a good idea. Setting up a fair test or prosecuting him is a far better idea.
I have no intention of killing Mr. Salesman (that would be the anti-personnel minefield option). The gunpowder in my scenario was not an explosive charge, it was just a bag of gunpowder buried near the bear trap to help the con artists "detect" a dangerous substance (as that is the basic claim: this device can detect any dangerous substance).

I'd set up the described test just to hear what kind of excuses the con artists would make. They know it doesn't work and they would not put themselves in such a situation. On the other hand, if the con artists think my test was a bluff and actually agreed to it (believing that no one would expose the sellers to actual danger) then I say go ahead with it and actually place small bear traps in a field and let them "Quadro-track" their way out.

''''''''''''''''''''''''''
OK, here is a compromise: replace the bear traps with buried paintball guns - each with a different color. Explain that each color represents a different country in which these devices were sold. If the con artist is hit with a specific color, then he is immediately extradited to that country to face whatever punishment that country believes is appropriate.
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Old 7th March 2013, 09:11 AM   #404
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McCormick Alleged Fraud Trial Commences

I can confirm that the trial of James McCormick on alleged fraud charges commenced yesterday, and previous reporting restrictions have been partially lifted.

Press coverage has already started e.g.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/mar/07/businessman-bomb-detection-kits-golf


I will keep you informed of anything of interest, but of course if you are so motivated you can keep an eye on the press/TV/interweb.

PLEASE BE VERY CAREFUL WITH ANY COMMENTS YOU MAKE!!!!! WE DO NOT WANT TO PREJUDICE THE CASE IN ANY WAY. FEEL FREE TO PM ME IF YOU HAVE ANY DOUBTS ON THIS
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Old 7th March 2013, 09:32 AM   #405
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There's just been a report on BBC Radio5 about the trial

Key points

- Cost £22 to make sold for up to $40k
- Didn't work
- Outlandish claims of usefulness
- Thousands sold, mostly in Iraq
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Old 7th March 2013, 05:35 PM   #406
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Originally Posted by Dubious Dick View Post

PLEASE BE VERY CAREFUL WITH ANY COMMENTS YOU MAKE! WE DO NOT WANT TO PREJUDICE THE CASE IN ANY WAY. FEEL FREE TO PM ME IF YOU HAVE ANY DOUBTS ON THIS
I am not trying to pick a fight or anything, but I am curious. If there were prejudicial comments on this site and the defense team cited JREF and other sites are prejudicing the case, what exactly would happen? In the U.S. there would be a change of venue as the courts looked for a locale that had not been so exposed to the prejudicial comments - and then the trial would proceed.

Lastly, an unprejudiced comment: My curiosity is beyond piqued. I cannot wait to see what happens next.


ETA: one more question. After a verdict is reached in a U.S. court, what appears in newspapers and public fora is irrelevant to the appeals process. Is that the case in your country?
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Old 8th March 2013, 02:10 AM   #407
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
I am not trying to pick a fight or anything, but I am curious. If there were prejudicial comments on this site and the defense team cited JREF and other sites are prejudicing the case, what exactly would happen? In the U.S. there would be a change of venue as the courts looked for a locale that had not been so exposed to the prejudicial comments - and then the trial would proceed.

Lastly, an unprejudiced comment: My curiosity is beyond piqued. I cannot wait to see what happens next.


ETA: one more question. After a verdict is reached in a U.S. court, what appears in newspapers and public fora is irrelevant to the appeals process. Is that the case in your country?
1. If the defence could show that there was current prejudicial coverage the case could come to an end on the basis of a fair trial not being possible. It would generally apply to national press coverage that may be accessible to the Jury. IANAL but do not think there would be scope to move the trial anywhere 'safe' for the defendant.

2. You are not the only one whose curiosity is piqued! Having spent over 4 years working on this since Randi issued his challenge to the ADE651, Techowiz and I, along with many others who have been involved are on the edge of our seats.

3. Interesting point re possible appeal. I think the same would apply as in the U.S. but I am going to ask around. Appeals would go before Judges, not a Jury, hence why I think the same principle applies.

4. There are more trials of others to follow, so there are issues over the reporting during this trial of not prejudicing those to follow. The restrictions will apply until that series of trials is over too.

It may be best to simply report what comes out in the press for now, and make no further comments on what is happening over and above those reports.
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Old 8th March 2013, 09:45 AM   #408
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Originally Posted by Dubious Dick View Post
It may be best to simply report what comes out in the press for now, and make no further comments on what is happening over and above those reports.
I am prepared to follow your advice, but I will state that it will require discipline for this particular case.
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Old 14th March 2013, 02:17 PM   #409
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Latest media report on the trial of James McCormick on charges of fraud.

'No scientific validity' in bomb detector fraud trial

Of course, you could have knocked me down with a feather!

On advice I am sticking to simply passing on such reports. If you have not been keeping up with this story recently, or are new to it, please refrain from passing any comment so as not to risk prejudicing the trial:


http://ade651gt200scamfraud.blogspot.co.uk/
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Old 18th March 2013, 07:20 AM   #410
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As an ex-soldier in the British Army who used these devices (or similar) in tours of Northern Ireland, I am interested in the court case. I'm grateful for the updates on this forum.
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Old 18th March 2013, 07:41 AM   #411
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Originally Posted by Reno View Post
As an ex-soldier in the British Army who used these devices (or similar) in tours of Northern Ireland, I am interested in the court case. I'm grateful for the updates on this forum.
Hi Reno,

Most interesting! have PM'ed you.

best, DD
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Old 23rd March 2013, 02:54 AM   #412
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latest News From McCormick Trial

http://ade651gt200scamfraud.blogspot...ng-lights.html
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Old 26th March 2013, 05:48 PM   #413
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Sharon Hill already linked to a new report from the Guardian on Doubtful News, but a little birdie also told me a few more details about the trial and you are welcome to peruse both the Guardian piece and the report from the little birdie here:


http://ade651gt200scamfraud.blogspot.co.uk/


See latest post, McCormick Takes The Stand.
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Old 26th March 2013, 07:24 PM   #414
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Originally Posted by Dubious Dick View Post
Sharon Hill already linked to a new report from the Guardian on Doubtful News, but a little birdie also told me a few more details about the trial and you are welcome to peruse both the Guardian piece and the report from the little birdie here:


http://ade651gt200scamfraud.blogspot.co.uk/


See latest post, McCormick Takes The Stand.
I Am glad I took my blood pressure medication today.
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Old 23rd April 2013, 05:03 AM   #415
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Breaking news at the BBC website:

Quote:
UK businessman James McCormick found guilty of fraud over bogus bomb detectors sold around the world
ETA:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22266051

Last edited by Garrison; 23rd April 2013 at 05:06 AM.
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Old 23rd April 2013, 05:05 AM   #416
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Link:

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2013-...omb-detectors/
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Old 23rd April 2013, 05:15 AM   #417
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Result! The BBC link has been updated to show that Newsnight will be doing a full report on this tonight at 10:30pm.

I couldn't see reference to sentencing in the above reports. Presumably that will be done at some future date as usual in English law?
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Old 23rd April 2013, 05:19 AM   #418
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Originally Posted by ohms View Post
Result! The BBC link has been updated to show that Newsnight will be doing a full report on this tonight at 10:30pm.

I couldn't see reference to sentencing in the above reports. Presumably that will be done at some future date as usual in English law?
Page updated yet again to say he will be be sentenced 2nd May.
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Old 23rd April 2013, 05:20 AM   #419
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So it has. Thanks!
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Old 23rd April 2013, 05:32 AM   #420
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"golfball finding device"?

How many golfers were killed by uncovering explosives when they tried to use this device to locate lost balls?
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Old 23rd April 2013, 05:46 AM   #421
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Originally Posted by Dan O. View Post
"golfball finding device"?

How many golfers were killed by uncovering explosives when they tried to use this device to locate lost balls?
The "card" allowed it to switch between target types so unless you had the wrong car you'd be absolutely safe (or something like that)
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Old 23rd April 2013, 10:06 AM   #422
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It is hard to deny the ade 651 detector is doing a better job than what the US Military uses to detect weapons of mass destruction (WMD). 10 years into Iraq and trillions of dollars spent and no WMD found. The ade 651 detector has a 50/50 chance of detecting what it is programmed for and those are still better odds than what the US was capable of with their technology.
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Old 23rd April 2013, 10:09 AM   #423
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/ap...lty-fake-bombs

And down he goes.
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Old 23rd April 2013, 10:34 AM   #424
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
It is hard to deny the ade 651 detector is doing a better job than what the US Military uses to detect weapons of mass destruction (WMD). 10 years into Iraq and trillions of dollars spent and no WMD found. The ade 651 detector has a 50/50 chance of detecting what it is programmed for and those are still better odds than what the US was capable of with their technology.
'What it is programmed for'? You realize right it was never programmed for anything? it's claimed method for functioning had more to do with homeopathy than chemistry. Also it's been used as a bomb detector at checkpoints, nothing to do with the search for WMDs.
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Old 23rd April 2013, 10:52 AM   #425
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
'What it is programmed for'? You realize right it was never programmed for anything? it's claimed method for functioning had more to do with homeopathy than chemistry. Also it's been used as a bomb detector at checkpoints, nothing to do with the search for WMDs.

From wiki: After a substance-specific "programmed substance detection card" is inserted, the device is supposed to swivel in the user's hand to point its antenna in the direction of the target substance.

"The training manual for the device says it can even, with the right card, detect elephants, humans and 100 dollar bills. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8471187.stm
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Old 23rd April 2013, 10:57 AM   #426
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
It is hard to deny the ade 651 detector is doing a better job than what the US Military uses to detect weapons of mass destruction (WMD). 10 years into Iraq and trillions of dollars spent and no WMD found. The ade 651 detector has a 50/50 chance of detecting what it is programmed for and those are still better odds than what the US was capable of with their technology.
Not true at all. There were no WMDs, and that's what the US military found - none.
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Old 23rd April 2013, 11:12 AM   #427
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
It is hard to deny the ade 651 detector is doing a better job than what the US Military uses to detect weapons of mass destruction (WMD). 10 years into Iraq and trillions of dollars spent and no WMD found. The ade 651 detector has a 50/50 chance of detecting what it is programmed for and those are still better odds than what the US was capable of with their technology.
where did the 50/50 come from?

You seem to be implying that the Ade651 actually identified half the bombs that were trying to be smuggled past a checkpoint. It did not.
.


ETA: oh and signature line as well.
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Old 23rd April 2013, 11:16 AM   #428
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
Not true at all. There were no WMDs, and that's what the US military found - none.
List of quotes by senior US officials and others claiming Iraq had WMDs.

WMD, Who Said What and When
http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle4882.htm

This was all before the invention of the ADE 651. So some other intelligence or technology was used to determine that as a fact before the invasion of Iraq.
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Old 23rd April 2013, 11:18 AM   #429
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from BBC link
Police intend to pursue McCormick's wealth under the Proceeds of Crime Act.

The 56-year-old currently owns houses in Florida and Cyprus, as well as a yacht, and recently bought film star Nicholas Cage's mansion in Bath.
A most fascinating turn of events.
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Old 23rd April 2013, 11:23 AM   #430
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
List of quotes by senior US officials and others claiming Iraq had WMDs.

WMD, Who Said What and When
http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle4882.htm

This was all before the invention of the ADE 651. So some other intelligence or technology was used to determine that as a fact before the invasion of Iraq.
Be careful.
Thread drift is tolerated at the JREF, but if one wanders too far off topic, those posts will be moved to another thread.
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Old 23rd April 2013, 11:29 AM   #431
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
where did the 50/50 come from?

You seem to be implying that the Ade651 actually identified half the bombs that were trying to be smuggled past a checkpoint. It did not.
.


ETA: oh and signature line as well.
Sandia National Laboratories had carried out testing of several similar devices but found that "none have ever performed better than random chance.

Probability and Statistics Random chance of a tossed penny has a 50-50 chance.
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Old 23rd April 2013, 11:41 AM   #432
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
Sandia National Laboratories had carried out testing of several similar devices but found that "none have ever performed better than random chance.

Probability and Statistics Random chance of a tossed penny has a 50-50 chance.
Yeah if you hsd just read a little further you would have seen this(my bold):

Quote:
During a two-and-a-half-year police investigation, a University of Cambridge professor had conducted a "full double blind trial" of the devices and found the results were no better than random chance. The device was right three out of 25 times.
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Old 23rd April 2013, 11:45 AM   #433
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
List of quotes by senior US officials and others claiming Iraq had WMDs.

WMD, Who Said What and When
http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle4882.htm

This was all before the invention of the ADE 651. So some other intelligence or technology was used to determine that as a fact before the invasion of Iraq.
And as has been pointed out the ADE 651 was nothing to do with WMDs; it was used to detect bombs at checkpoints so please stop the detour. Also I'm not sure sticking a label on a golf ball detector and making up a story about 'magical cards' counts as inventing something.
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Old 23rd April 2013, 11:51 AM   #434
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
Sandia National Laboratories had carried out testing of several similar devices but found that "none have ever performed better than random chance.

Probability and Statistics Random chance of a tossed penny has a 50-50 chance.
Because in the case of a tossed penny, the two possibilities (heads and tails) are equally likely. That is not the case for most of the things this device is claimed to detect. For example if it's scanning for bombs in cars going through a checkpoint, it will only have a 50-50 chance of being right if half the cars contain bombs.
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Old 23rd April 2013, 11:53 AM   #435
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
... a golf ball detector...
Correction: a fake golf ball detector.
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Old 23rd April 2013, 11:59 AM   #436
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
And as has been pointed out the ADE 651 was nothing to do with WMDs; it was used to detect bombs at checkpoints so please stop the detour. Also I'm not sure sticking a label on a golf ball detector and making up a story about 'magical cards' counts as inventing something.
Where did I say the ADE 651 was used to search for WMD? It was invented after the US invasion of Iraq.
According to Iraqi reports.
"The Iraqi Interior Minister, Jawad al-Bulani, also defended the device, telling Al Iraqiya television that the ADE 651 had "managed to prevent and detect more than 16,000 bombs that would be a threat to people's life and more than 733 car bombs were defused."

The gadget found more bombs than what the US were using to find WMD.
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Old 23rd April 2013, 12:00 PM   #437
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Originally Posted by Sherman Bay View Post
Correction: a fake golf ball detector.
I believe the word they used was 'novelty', which is fair enough given that no one will die if you don't find a golf ball...
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Old 23rd April 2013, 12:06 PM   #438
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Originally Posted by justintime View Post
"The Iraqi Interior Minister, Jawad al-Bulani, also defended the device, telling Al Iraqiya television that the ADE 651 had "managed to prevent and detect more than 16,000 bombs that would be a threat to people's life and more than 733 car bombs were defused."
And of course you're quite happy to take his word for that? Likewise this:

Quote:
From wiki: After a substance-specific "programmed substance detection card" is inserted, the device is supposed to swivel in the user's hand to point its antenna in the direction of the target substance.

"The training manual for the device says it can even, with the right card, detect elephants, humans and 100 dollar bills. "
Is simply a claim without a shred of hard evidence to back it up and indeed the evidence we have is that the claim is utterly fraudulent.
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Old 23rd April 2013, 12:14 PM   #439
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Since the detector cannot detect bombs or anything else, the Iraqi minister is mistaken in ascribing any success in detecting bombs to the device. It was luck combined with good intelligence and searches which found the bombs and landmines.

I understand next Monday's Panorama programme will be about McCormick, and tonight's Newsnight will cover the story too.

His reaction after the court was disgusting, he had not a shred of remorse that his 'device' did nothing except fill up his bank account, and that fact directly led to deaths and injuries.
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Old 23rd April 2013, 12:16 PM   #440
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
And of course you're quite happy to take his word for that? Likewise this:



Is simply a claim without a shred of hard evidence to back it up and indeed the evidence we have is that the claim is utterly fraudulent.
Some possible explanations. Fewer bombs were found because the US withdrew from Iraq and the need to plant bombs decreased.

The device was over provisioned/designed to be useful after the war where items other than bombs could be programmed for detection (elephants, dollar bills, skeptics etc.)
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