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Tags Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi , Lockerbie bombing , Pan Am 103

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Old 8th December 2009, 05:42 AM   #401
Buncrana
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For those looking in, there were 3 critical aspects to this case which resulted in the conviction of Megrahi. The other threads on this forum cover these aspects, but to summarize:

1. An unaccompanied bomb bag came from Malta as illustrated by Frankfurt airport worker Mrs Erac's printout. [http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=155657]

2. The fragment of timer discovered around the Scottish border pointed the finger towards Libya and thus Megrahi. [http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=153971]

3. The shop owner's recollection of the sale of clothes used in concealing the bomb and the purchaser 'resembled' Megrahi. [http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=158909]


And, as the saying goes, that's all folks. No evidence that Megrahi ever bought this timer. No evidence of Megrahi with the semtex used in making the bomb, and despite over 10 years of investigating, no evidence whatsoever of how Megrahi actually placed the suitcase on the Air Malta flight which then wound it's way around 3 airport security systems and onto 103 at Heathrow. This accusation and evidence presented was so weak that his accomplice in Malta, and co-accused at Zeist, was immediately acquitted of all charges.

1. As the other thread on this forum demonstrates, the were some odd circumstances surrounding the production of Mrs Erac's printout from Frankfurt Airport, when consideration is given to the aspect that no other records from Frankfurt were recovered - or at least disclosed. Mrs Erac's story of how this came to be the only document purporting to show an unaccompanied bag from a baggage station collecting Air Malta luggage - and according to prosecutors, the bomb bag - and then finding it's way onto the PanAm feeder flight have been challenged in some respects. We know initial reports in Germany wrongly stated it was a flight from Frankfurt that had crashed over Lockerbie, which you would therefore expect, naturally, law and security officials to spring into action. Aside from the inaccurate first reports of the crash originating in Germany, Frankfurt was also on high alert for an attempt of sabotage on a aircraft from other investigations in the weeks proceeding 21st Dec 1988. So why was Mrs Erac's record the only document recovered from an airport prepared for a possible airline attack, and why wasn't the bag noticed by airport baggage examiners warned beforehand to look out for bombs contained in Toshiba radios?

2. The timer fragment, it's discovery, it's identification and the chain of records pertaining to it, are also subject to some dispute. As a result, the integrity of the timer fragment itself is questioned, together with the knowledge that the three main 'expert' and 'scientific' protagonists in discovering and identifying the 'fragment' have all been, subsequent to the Lockerbie investigation, discredited in other unrelated work associated with forensic evidence brought to court. Despite repeated denials over the years, and claims that this vital piece of evidence did not leave the UK mainland due to it's critical importance, it has recently been confirmed that this fragment had indeed been examined by various people in various countries outside the UK.

3. The clothes that were contained around the bomb that brought down 103, were recovered and identified as being from a small shop in Sliema, Malta. The shop owner provided many statements to the investigators, including many differing descriptions of the buyer, and some additional information including Christmas lights in the town and weather on the day the purchase was made. However, the shop owner Tony Gauci was recollecting a purchase nine months earlier, so perhaps vague and inconsistent recollections are inevitable. However, despite all these discrepancies, his testimony was accepted by the court and indeed became the main foundation for the bomb originating in Malta and constructed by Megrahi. In 2007 the SCCRC concluded that in it's finding that Megrahi case should be sent to appeal, it had also uncovered evidence that the Maltese shopkeeper had received substantial 'compensation' for his testimony at Zeist further undermining this aspect to the case and investigation.

There are a plethora of other areas which could be decreed as having some significance to the Lockerbie bombing including : CIA, drugs, arms dealers, double-agents, triple agents, Lebanon hostages, South African Apartheid, UN officials, MI6, undisclosed evidence, warnings, tampering of evidence, Bollier and the Swiss timer, duped drugs mule, Iran revenge, paid witnesses and freed terrorists. However, the main critical areas as detailed above, should be of primary concern to everyone, as that was the basis for forming the indictment, and ultimately, the conviction of Megrahi who was incarcerated for 9 years before being released on compassionate grounds.

Last edited by Buncrana; 8th December 2009 at 05:43 AM.
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Old 12th December 2009, 07:22 PM   #402
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Old 15th December 2009, 02:43 PM   #403
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Slow times on these threads. I did a new post on my blog about the Vincennes/IA655 incident, trying to understand if the Iranians really had reason to get angry and seek revenge of the 103 type. It gets clearer the more I look.
http://12-7-9-11.blogspot.com/2009/1...-iran-war.html
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Old 16th December 2009, 02:36 AM   #404
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On the above, everyone gets the significance, right? It's widely believed by those not overly-enchanted by the bread crumb trail leading to Libya, that PA103 was Iranian revenge, exacted pretty exactly, for this highly troubling U.S. shoot-down. This is the event "inextricably linked' with Lockerbie, according to the petition circulated in the Scottish Parliament by MSP Grahame. Looking closer, it's little wonder Washington didn't want the two connected in any way. Something had to come between them, because time, original evidence, motive, means, and opportunity all were pushing them together.

The more you know: The Vincennes was designed, tested, and usually used for surface-to-air missions. In July 1988 it was sent for surface-to-surface missions, and only worked its forte in its mistaken actions. Huh.

The function the accident wound up serving was contributing to Iran's growing sense that it could no longer afford the war now that Americans were shooting at them and might just continue. The incident packed a lot of pain into one bad decision, and would two really be that unlikely? Interestignly, I'd suspect the event had an effect on the public unlike much of what they'd already been going through for years. A new (rather more direct) and vastly more powerful enemy, and Fear of heights... Just think again what you're so mad at Megrahi for, recall these people didn't die until hitting the surface. This is almost the definition of terrorism to show that your government's policies might get YOU killed in horrifying ways. X and X has to stop, or the planes might keep falling.

That's the message of terrorism. It's also the message of this accidental outcome of a reckless and otherwise unjustifiable deployment. I know it's harsh to even suggest, but the Iranians are harsh people and they probably saw it just this way. It worked, they cancelled the war rather than risk whatever was in store from outside and/or from below (revolution, etc.). And then some mirror-image atrocity against Americans happened right after that. And we wind up blaming Libya, with the Iranians apparently just giving up after the Autumn Leaves thing.

Who can explain this curious cluster of coinkydinks?

Does it warrant its own thread? Maybe later.
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Old 16th December 2009, 01:42 PM   #405
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Sorry I've been a bit quiet - I've got about a gadzillion Christmas cards and presents still to send.

I don't see any real evidence that the downing of the Airbus was anything more than a negligent accident. And I work beside someone who was right there, serving on the HMS York, at the time. He says that originally the Vincennes tried to blame the York for the loss of the airbus, but the York didn't even have the necessary missiles. They were convinced that they'd shot down a fighter plane, and the airbus was nothing to do with them. However, after about 15 minutes, the penny dropped.

Then the Vincennes and another US warship that was in the area steamed away and left the crew of the York to fish the bodies and the bits of bodies out of the Persian Gulf. The rest of the tale would probably be Too Much Information. They were matching up legs by pairing the shoes at one point.

I am led to believe, however, that revenge for the loss of the Airbus would be seen as a holy duty by the Iranian government, accident or not. There is a complicated theory (Tam Dalyell?) that suggests the revenge should have involved the downing of a number of US passenger jets, and some clandestine deal was done to limit the revenge to just the one, with PA103 being the sacrificial lamb. Not sure I believe that, but it has been alleged.

I was thinking, if I get the cards posted and so on by the weekend, and it doesn't snow, I might drive down to Lockerbie after work on Monday and put a bunch of flowers on the memorial or something. If I can't make it on Monday, I'll go in the springtime. 12th May might be appropriate....

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Old 16th December 2009, 03:15 PM   #406
Caustic Logic
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Sorry I've been a bit quiet - I've got about a gadzillion Christmas cards and presents still to send.
Hey, thanks for taking a minute. I know evryone's gor seasonal stuff going on, even me, just not as much ATM. Actually, wait... oh, this has to be quick.

Quote:
I don't see any real evidence that the downing of the Airbus was anything more than a negligent accident. And I work beside someone who was right there, serving on the HMS York, at the time. He says that originally the Vincennes tried to blame the York for the loss of the airbus, but the York didn't even have the necessary missiles.They were convinced that they'd shot down a fighter plane, and the airbus was nothing to do with them. However, after about 15 minutes, the penny dropped.
Thanks for that. It's a fascinating case I'm just starting to look at. I don't want to give it a thread in the CT forum, I want to say it was a pure accident. There were so many precusrors for the accident that were willfully set up - well, any event is based on many many realities beneath it combining how thy do... and mistakes do happen, etc. but I can see how Iran felt looking at it all with suspicious eyes, the notion is inescapable. It was an intended accident.

Abdulhasan Bani Sadr President of Iran 1979-1981
30:10
On the shoot-down of IA655 “It was a crime. To the Iranians it was a crime. … The people of Iran have never forgotten. Had it involved any other country, there would have been legal proceedings. A lot of fuss would have been made around the world. But here they destroyed the aircraft and then congratulated themselves."
34:00
On the bombing of Pan Am 103 “Dalhomani spent most of the time in Tehran. He is also an officer in the Syrian Secret Service. Iran ordered the attack and Ahmed Jibril carried it out. With collaboration from the diplomatic missions."

So to the IA655 CT, I won't go further. On the PA103 CT, we needn't go further than acknowledge Iran's perception of the accident was enough to warrant ambitions of in-kind revenge. Just wanted to linger on the issue a moment, to feel why maybe others have NOT wanted to linger on it, as tying it to PA103 would cause.

Quote:
I was thinking, if I get the cards posted and so on by the weekend, and it doesn't snow, I might drive down to Lockerbie after work on Monday and put a bunch of flowers on the memorial or something. If I can't make it on Monday, I'll go in the springtime. 12th May might be appropriate....

Rolfe.
that would be poignant. It is that time of year. Christmas and Lockerbie forever mixed up together in those parts, huh? It'll fade with time, as people do. But have some nice times this year, huh?
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Old 20th December 2009, 07:09 AM   #407
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Incidentally, I see that Megrahi's condition continues to deteriorate.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8423117.stm
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Old 20th December 2009, 01:43 PM   #408
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I saw that on the TV news tonight. It's inevitable, I fear.

I'm not going to get anywhere near Lockerbie tomorrow. I couldn't even get the car as far as the main road yesterday evening because of the snow. The snowploughs and gritters have been out and everything is passable again, but more snow is forecast and it's not weather for 60-mile trips that aren't necessary.

I'll take some spring flowers instead.

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Old 21st December 2009, 04:52 AM   #409
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This latest twist in the news makes no sense.

Lockerbie: Megrahi's cancer is spreading

No I don't mean that the deterioration of his medical condition makes no sense, it's the later part of the article.

Quote:
The medical report came as it was revealed that Megrahi had Ł1.8 million in a Swiss bank account when he was convicted eight years ago. The Crown Office confirmed it refused to grant bail to him as recently as November last year because of concerns he might try to access the money.

The existence of such a large sum in a personal account casts doubt on the Libyan Government’s assertion that Megrahi was simply a low-ranking airline worker.
Ben Wallace, the deputy Shadow Scottish Secretary, described the revelation as “startling”.

"Had this been known at the time, the financial web that linked Libya and Megrahi to international terrorism would have been a major plank in the Crown’s case.

“Far from being the wrong man, this suggests Megrahi was an international co-ordinator of terrorism for Libya,” said the Conservative MP for Lancaster.

Sources close to the Libyan’s defence team said they were aware of the bank account and had several explanations prepared ahead of his trial in the Netherlands in 2000.

These included that the money was given by his employer, Libyan Arab Airlines, to buy aircraft parts abroad in breach of the western trade embargo in place against Libya at the time of the bombing.

Frank Duggan, president of Victims of Pan Am 103, representing American families, said the Swiss bank account was one more reason why Megrahi was not willing to testify.

First, where did this assertion that Megrahi was "a low-ranking airline worker" come from? His airline job was Head of Airline Security for Libyan Arab Airlines, hardly low-ranking in anybody's book. This is a simple fact, and was never disputed.

What is often forgotten is that he had left that job before the Lockerbie bombing to take up a new job as Director of the Centre for Strategic Studies in Tripoli. He wasn't working in the airline industry at all at the crucial time. But again, it's not disputed. That was his job at the time of the bombing. So, not low-ranking, and not even an airline worker.

So far as I am aware, the Libyan government has never made any "assertion that Megrahi was simply a low-ranking airline worker". It would be a pretty silly thing to assert. I suspect a particularly egregious example of the straw man fallacy here. (Invent a silly claim, then point out that it's patent nonsense. Nice.)

He was also probably an intelligence officer. In that respect the Defence strategy (as for most of the case) was to make the Crown prove its assertions rather than either admitting anything or providing explanations. I don't think the Crown ever proved he was a JSO officer after he changed jobs, but I suspect he probably was.

So it's highly probable that he was an international co-ordinator of something for Libya. However, the presence of money in a bank account is not by itself a "financial web that linked Libya and Megrahi to international terrorism". There is still a total absence of evidence to show that Megrahi in person was ever involved in any terrorism, ever handled explosives, ever constructed a bomb. Or that he coupld possibly have got an unaccompanied suitcase on board KM180.

So what about the money?

Well, this part of the Herald report seems to be little more than a re-posting of the Sunday Times article that Robert Black criticised in his blog yesterday. The money was known about at the time of the court case, and the Defence was prepared to argue "innocent" (or rather, non-Lockerbie-connected) explanations for its being there. The question of that money (if it's still there) wasn't raised by the Crown during the bail hearing. And so on.

Since about 1990 the Sunday Times has been pushing the line that Libya was behind the Lockerbie disaster (a volte-face from their earlier series of articles tracing the atrocity to the PFLP-GC and Ahmed Jibril, apparently led by David Leppard's inexplicable conversion to the Libya theory). Look what the Journalists blog has to say about the writer responsible for the present allegations.

Whatever the motivation, it's clear that article is riddled with factual inaccuracies and is as biassed as hell. It's sad to see the Herald repeat it so mindlessly. But given the Herald's readership base, I suspect tomorrow's letters page (recently expanded) will prove an interesting read.

Rolfe.
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Last edited by Rolfe; 21st December 2009 at 04:54 AM.
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Old 21st December 2009, 06:46 AM   #410
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Quote:
Sources close to the Libyan’s defence team said they were aware of the bank account and had several explanations prepared ahead of his trial in the Netherlands in 2000.
That seems a bit fishy. Surely they only need one explanation, the truth?
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Old 21st December 2009, 07:36 AM   #411
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You'd think so, wouldn't you.

However, this is part and parcel of the defence at the trial, which was to make the prosecution prove their case and not to provide their own narrative. It seems fairly likely that Megrahi was engaged on something not entirely above-board in December 1988, probably sanctions-busting for the Gadaffi regime. It was fairly clear that the Libyan authorities had no intention of revealing what he was actually doing in Luqa airport that morning. And the Libyan authorities had control of the defence, just as the CIA had control of the prosecition.

Preparing a set of obfuscatory smoke-screens would be about par for the course. Revealing what Megrahi was actually up to, not so much. Note also the "sources close to the Libyan's defence team" citation. Nice piece of deniability, or even complete rubbish.

Rolfe.
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Old 21st December 2009, 01:53 PM   #412
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Mr. MacAskill cited those sources when others could also have told him there are actually different reasons to have a million or more in a bank account. I've heard Megrahi's job for Libya described as "sanctions buster." But this was after the bombing. It seems to be from here, a 2002 article I'll have to sign up for later:
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-9989557.html
Quote:
NELSON Mandela will hear the convicted Lockerbie bomber admit that he was a sanctions-buster for the Libyan regime but deny that he took part in the terrorist attack on PanAm 103 when the former South African president visits Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed al-Megrahi in Barlinnie Prison tomorrow.

Labour MP Tam Dalyell, who visited Megrahi in jail two weeks ago, said: "Mandela will ask the same question I did and that was, 'If you weren't involved in terrorism, what were you up to?' Megrahi will give him the same answer. He'll protest his innocence and explain what he did for the Libyan government."
Tying back in with Zooterkin, I Have to agree giving a single reasonable explanation would help re-frame the picture. The various answers are largely more specific subsets of sanctions-circumvention and building commercial ties with the West. Using nearby Malta and neutral Switzerland as bases, it seems.

Did we catch Megrahi's personal response to this issue? It may be his last response to anything. He didn't even bother responding to the "Megrahi's gone missing!" stores a couple days ago.

Twenty-one Years ago today. I'll go have me a moment of silence now. Another will be due July 3.

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Old 21st December 2009, 02:43 PM   #413
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I'm afraid I was digging my car into my driveway at 7.03pm this evening, aided by a couple of neighbours. So the actual moment passed. (I can't see the logic in taking a small snowplough along the pavement, leaving two lines of piled snow across everybody's driveway, but that's what some genius did.)

But today's the day Scotland remembers. I was woken to Pamela Dix speaking on the radio, bemoaning the limbo of not knowing what or who happened to her brother. We won't forget.

I'm just astounded by the ignorance, and frankly the disinfo of the "low-ranking airline worker" assertion. It's good that Megrahi is still well enough to make a response regarding the rest of the allegations at least.

Did you see that Father Keegans was blocked from addressing the 21st anniversary service in Arlington earlier, because they don't want anyone to point out that Megrahi was probably innocent. The Herald published part of the speech he was going to give.

Oh, and Caustic Logic, I've finally figured out what you were on about regarding Frank Duggan. Very very weird. This makes me even more suspicious that the US relatives were essentially bought off. If you got a lot of money from Pan Am because they were allegedly negligent in letting baggage tray 8849 on board PA103A with a bomb on it, and Ł10 million (no less) from Gadaffi because Megrahi allegedly put the bomb in that case, are you really going to want to hear that it almost certainly didn't happen like that? So what better than an "official spokesman" with no personal interest, whose job is simply to fob off all challenges.

I find "Charles" on the Robert Black blog strangely interesting, although he's looking at the rabbit hole I'm reluctant to venture down.

Rolfe.
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Old 21st December 2009, 05:45 PM   #414
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It's so sad and such a shame that amid the sorrow and frustration that must be shared by so many family and friends with each passing anniversary, this time for reflection is soured by spurious media reports and the vitriolic words from the likes of Duggan.

He certainly does not represent all the US families, and quite why his arrogant nonsensical caterwauling is a permanent feature in the media, far less why he is allowed to determine who speaks and who does not at the Arlington memorial, is deeply saddening. I take CL's point, but as I say, AFAIK he certainly does not represent all (perhaps not even a majority) of the US families, although he certainly has the boot spurs and the bombastic characteristics to appear credible and reasoned to some.
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Old 21st December 2009, 06:12 PM   #415
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Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
On the above, everyone gets the significance, right? It's widely believed by those not overly-enchanted by the bread crumb trail leading to Libya, that PA103 was Iranian revenge, exacted pretty exactly, for this highly troubling U.S. shoot-down. This is the event "inextricably linked' with Lockerbie, according to the petition circulated in the Scottish Parliament by MSP Grahame. Looking closer, it's little wonder Washington didn't want the two connected in any way. Something had to come between them, because time, original evidence, motive, means, and opportunity all were pushing them together.

The more you know: The Vincennes was designed, tested, and usually used for surface-to-air missions. In July 1988 it was sent for surface-to-surface missions, and only worked its forte in its mistaken actions. Huh.

The function the accident wound up serving was contributing to Iran's growing sense that it could no longer afford the war now that Americans were shooting at them and might just continue. The incident packed a lot of pain into one bad decision, and would two really be that unlikely? Interestignly, I'd suspect the event had an effect on the public unlike much of what they'd already been going through for years. A new (rather more direct) and vastly more powerful enemy, and Fear of heights... Just think again what you're so mad at Megrahi for, recall these people didn't die until hitting the surface. This is almost the definition of terrorism to show that your government's policies might get YOU killed in horrifying ways. X and X has to stop, or the planes might keep falling.

That's the message of terrorism. It's also the message of this accidental outcome of a reckless and otherwise unjustifiable deployment. I know it's harsh to even suggest, but the Iranians are harsh people and they probably saw it just this way. It worked, they cancelled the war rather than risk whatever was in store from outside and/or from below (revolution, etc.). And then some mirror-image atrocity against Americans happened right after that. And we wind up blaming Libya, with the Iranians apparently just giving up after the Autumn Leaves thing.

Who can explain this curious cluster of coinkydinks?

Does it warrant its own thread? Maybe later.
The Vincennes incident has always left me somewhat uneasy with it's background, the actual incident itself and the conclusions. This whole period of the 1980's was a quagmire for US foreign policy. Supporting Saddam while arming the Iranians against the Russians, could only be one very precarious hot potato to juggle with. I do believe that the moment the missile struck IA655 over the Persian Gulf and the US govt were seen to ignore the transgressions of it's naval officers involved while exhibiting a crushing apathy towards those non-americans killed, the fate of 270 further innocent people's lives were sealed. The dead though are dead, and the murdered remain murdered whether it is by a home-made IED or a multi-million pound production of the corporate arms industry. The dead of one act cannot be called collateral damage while the victims of another are the victims of cowardly murderers.

In this great era of Thatcher-Blairite/Reagan-Bush brutal modernisation the past must be swept aside and we all must whistle a happy tune and move on. A path is dictated, a future is mapped, and without recourse to genuine cerebral activity the happy band must waltz along the directed route with cheery grins and apple cheeks. Those who fail to find their dance shoes, or dare question our methods, are nothing less than Fedayeen deadenders waving a blunt sword over the outstretched neck of your government and fellow countrymen.

Sorry, I'm rambling away here, thinking aloud. As you say, this could be another time, another thread.

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Old 22nd December 2009, 03:19 AM   #416
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Zooterkin, Architect, thanks for commenting. It's always heartening to see someone else decide this issue is worth talking about, at least a little. To the lurkers, ditto but replace talking with reading.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I'm afraid I was digging my car into my driveway at 7.03pm this evening, aided by a couple of neighbours. So the actual moment passed. (I can't see the logic in taking a small snowplough along the pavement, leaving two lines of piled snow across everybody's driveway, but that's what some genius did.)
The roads have to be cleared. Most of its length the (side-berms?) are a no-brainer deal for passability. At driveways or even side-street entrances plowed over, those just have to be managed locally by the people passing them. This stuff just seems elemental to me after the winter we had last year (94 inches total, a record). Count yourself lucky you got your car in, says I.

Quote:
Did you see that Father Keegans was blocked from addressing the 21st anniversary service in Arlington earlier, because they don't want anyone to point out that Megrahi was probably innocent. The Herald published part of the speech he was going to give.
That's politics, they say, which has no place in a solemn remembrance. Actually, I suppose it is politics in a real sense. And political interpretations are not a good fit at the solem parts, with the silence and ringing bell and all that. But they always go past that, into the anger or sense of justice or injustice emanating from it. Ignoring the false premise of the official story is tacitly accepting it as the basis of all the post-remembrance activity. And I'd wager if we checked the speeches given, the acceptance was well more than tacit, and the dismissal of certain views was nothing but political in itself.

Quote:
Oh, and Caustic Logic, I've finally figured out what you were on about regarding Frank Duggan. Very very weird. This makes me even more suspicious that the US relatives were essentially bought off. If you got a lot of money from Pan Am because they were allegedly negligent in letting baggage tray 8849 on board PA103A with a bomb on it, and Ł10 million (no less) from Gadaffi because Megrahi allegedly put the bomb in that case, are you really going to want to hear that it almost certainly didn't happen like that? So what better than an "official spokesman" with no personal interest, whose job is simply to fob off all challenges.
Didn't realize I was being any more cryptic than usual. Essentially, it seems he was appointed by Presdent Bush to liaise with the relatives and help represent them. I had gotten the impression he was a "victim of Pan Am 103," in the sens of course of losing someone, but it doesn't seem so. His vitriolic certainties and political heavy-handedness didn't SEEM like the way of one driven by genuine loss and hunger for truth. I think he's only been the corps president for a year or two now, but involved longer, and deserves no awe of the kind we can afford those like Dr. Swire who are so driven.

On the American side especially though there is that confirmation bias, as you explained. I sense that for sure. "It just has to be so." Political appointment and/or money seem to be sufficient to amplify the original encoded false signal. I wouldn't be surprised at all if a few genuine victims were also subsidized to speak a little too surely of the justness of the official case. If pressed though, I hope they'd behave differently than Mr. Duggan.

Quote:
I find "Charles" on the Robert Black blog strangely interesting, although he's looking at the rabbit hole I'm reluctant to venture down.

Rolfe.
I just caught his comments, unsure what to make of it all. No big rush either. It's that time of year.

Buncrana: excellent posts, thanks for helping shake off the slumber momentarily. I appreciate fully your queasiness re: The Vincennes and IA655. Now that I've learned a bit it's too fascinatingly horrible to put down. We do all know the attacked ships Capt. Rogers was going to help were fake signals in a US sting operation to lure out iranians to shoot at right? I said I'd go no further though.

But to summarize, Rolfe says it was probably a "negligent accident," and I guess I'll agree, with the note that "negligent" is a big word. And there is a point where the negligence gets too much to accept as real rather than a cover. I can't say at this point is this case is over that line, or just too darn near it for comfort.

Everyone agrees the Iranians paid out $10 million for revenge. Just some feel they never collected on that, in the over two decades since.

But Megrahi had 1.8 million in an account, which proves... something.
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Old 23rd December 2009, 01:54 AM   #417
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Aaah! I always wind up with the last word before another lull. Ah well.

On keeping politics out of the memorial service. recall Mr. Duggan de-listed Friar Keegans' speech because his comments (supporting al Megrahi's innocence) had no place in "a day to remember 270 innocent souls murdered in an act of state sponsored terrorism. It is not a day for politics, a discussion of the bomber's trial and conviction or of his health."

I noted above that I agree the solemn remembrance part should be politics free, but it would go beyond that into tacit or more direct embrace of the OFFICIAL politics. So let's check - President Obama sent John O Brennan, Assistant to the President for Homeland Security and Counterterrorism. And he said:

Quote:
The evidence was clear. The trial was fair. The guilt of Abdel Basset Ali al-Megrahi was proven beyond a reasonable doubt. His conviction stands. The sentence was just. And nothing—not his unjustified release and certainly not a deplorable scene on a tarmac in Tripoli—will ever change those facts or wash the guilt from his hands or from the hands of those who assisted him in carrying out this heinous crime.
Boy, that's some solemn and meditative non-political stuff there. The victims should be proud to see their deaths still used so shamelessly to cover U.S. official policy.

You know, I really want to ask these "hero's welcome" bemoaners two questions
1) How should Libyans have responded to the return of a convicted murderer of 270 they generally feel is innocent and wrongly convicted? Boos and hisses and a mob dismemberment? Hang their heads in solemn recognition of America's official delusions?
2) Do you really feel, as you people imply so often, the cheers were FOR the murder of the Lockerbie victims? Why so vague, just complaining about the "spectacle" rather than what you think it actually means?

Anyone here who feels they can field that question, I'm all ears.

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Old 23rd December 2009, 06:06 AM   #418
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Huh...according to the bold Frank '103 inc' Duggan, it is only the "deniers" and "cranks", as are Robert Black and Jim Swire, who will not and cannot accept the "overwhelming evidence" of guilt on the part of Megrahi. Evidence of which Mr Duggan "doesn't know how to explain it".

Well, quite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWWg5xivFkI
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Old 23rd December 2009, 10:56 AM   #419
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He's a paid shill.

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Old 23rd December 2009, 04:06 PM   #420
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Jim Swire, with some of the other 103's victims relatives, have apparently secured the help and advice of renowned and formidable solicitor Gareth Pierce.

This could be the last and yet the most significant and promising step taken by Dr Swire in his quest to discover, at least some, of the truth behind his daughters awful death. Ms Pierce is someone whom any State, legal system, it's judges and lawyers, will be extremely concerned at her involvement. Ms Pierce's lengthy experience (esp. within the British judicial system) and tenacious persistence will be an invaluable addition to Dr Swire's search.

Not to mention, she also has intimate knowledge of some of those involved at the Camp Zeist. The names Feraday and Hayes, not to mention the involvement of RARDE itself, have been center stage in some of the other miscarriages of justice she has exposed.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/h...uiry-1.993737?

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Old 23rd December 2009, 04:47 PM   #421
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She's not up to speed yet. She's declaring that the evidence the MST-13 was planted is strong, but as we've seen it's not as easy to knock over as all that. She even seems to be giving some credence to Bollier's substitution claims, but again I think the evidence says that's bunk.

A lot of what she's alleging is just hearsay, or standard "pet theories" regurgitated. She doesn't even seem to have decided which pet theory she espouses. I hope she'll come to a clearer undertanding when she's had a chance to look at the evidence in detail.

The annoying thing is, it's really quite easy to come to the conclusion that Megrahi didn't buy the clothes from Gauci and didn't put the bomb on the plane. If that's the sum total of what is required to be proved then it's not exactly challenging. It's figuring out any sort of coherent narrative about what did happen that's the tricky bit.

I'm afraid she may join so many others in throwing around obfuscating doubt rather than illuminating the issue. I hope I'm wrong though.

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Old 29th December 2009, 05:29 PM   #422
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'm ashamed to say I had gotten Pierce and Grahame confused a little. I agree Pierce needs to not flail around so much, but Grahame for her part is A-okay. Her sideline with the movements of PT/35(b) didn't pan out so great (as we predicted), but I re-read here article "Megrahi is home. And he is innocent" and I decided she's in the right space all told and will do about as well as anyone up against the same behemoth.
Quote:
I am convinced not only that Megrahi was not found guilty "beyond reasonable doubt", the test in Scot's law, but that he is an innocent man. [...] As for any inquiry, that's out there in the long grass. They are people in authority who are relying on Lockerbie fatigue setting in again. It mustn't.
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...t-1776188.html

Thought I'd share two other interesting quoteable conservative politicians:
Margaret Thatcher: “December 21 - Lockerbie bombing.” (not 21 December? Hmmm) - The entire reference to the event in Thatcher’s 914-page memoir The Downing Street Years (1995). "We wish to add nothing to the text" - Her response when asked, by a British PA103 relatives' group, about the book’s silence.
http://lockerbiecase.blogspot.com/20...lockerbie.html

One I didn't expect - David Frum, American political commnentor, neoconservative, speechwriter for Bush II. IIRC, it was Frum who was (at least half) responsible for the phrase "Axis of Evil."
Quote:
For years, many well-informed people in the intelligence community have doubted al-Megrahi's guilt in the Lockerbie bombing. They have argued that the bombing was the work of a Syrian based Palestinian group, the PFLP-GC, working for the government of Iran. Among those who support the Iran-did-it theory are: (i) former Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon; (ii) Robert Baer, the CIA official who worked directly on the Lockerbie case; (iii) Hans Koechler, the UN Security Council observer at al-Megrahi's trial; (iv) Robert Black, the Scottish lawyer who organized the trial proceedings; (v) Dr. Jim Swire, the spokesman for the families of British Lockerbie victims who lost his own daughter aboard Pan Am Flight 103; and (vi) David Horovitz, editor of the Jerusalem Post.
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/b...l-megrahi.aspx
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Old 29th December 2009, 06:12 PM   #423
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As I said, Christine Grahame is my local MSP, and I know her slightly. I've had personal email correspondence with her researcher about this issue, and I'm fairly sure she and her team are pretty solid on the research front.

Gareth Pierce, for all her stellar reputation, is very much a Johnny-come-lately to the Lockerbie debate. She is an English lawyer for a start, so it's not really her jurisdiction. I think she's just been reading Paul Foot and similar commentary (possibly even de Braeckeleer), without going too deeply into it as yet. However, she is a smart cookie who has passionate sympathy for victims of the "system", so I hope she reads a bit more, that's all.

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Old 31st December 2009, 03:03 PM   #424
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Hey cool, my first full re-post by Prof Black.
http://lockerbiecase.blogspot.com/20...nsibility.html
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Old 4th January 2010, 05:53 PM   #425
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Sorry, not quite a full re-post, but it got some attention after Black posted it, and kicked up a bit of info the skeptics might like. An admission of guilt, partial guilt, says a respected guy - Arnaud de Borchgrave, via Frank Duggan and Prof. Black. I wrote about the response here:
http://12-7-9-11.blogspot.com/2010/0...-of-guilt.html
e-mail, in part, de Borchgrave to Duggan (solicited)
Quote:
As Gaddafi explained it to me, which you are familiar with, it was indeed Iran's decision to retaliate for the Iran Air Airbus shot down by the USS Vincennes on its daily flight from Bandar Abbas to Dubai that led to a first subcontracting deal to Syrian intel, which, in turn, led to the 2nd subcontract to Libyan intel. As he himself said if they had been first at this terrorist bat, they would not have put Malta in the mix; Cyprus would have made more sense to draw attention away from Libya.
He claims it was after a July 1993 interview that Gaddafi dismissed all his bodyguards and admitted "off the record" that Libyan intelligence had agreed to be involved in Iran's retaliation for IA655. Two tellings at least predate the e-mail.

2009:
Quote:
Megrahi was a small cog in a much larger conspiracy. ...
Gaddafi candidly admitted that Lockerbie was retaliation for the July 3, 1988, downing of an Iranian Airbus. Air Iran Flight 655 ... "[R]etaliation, he said, was clearly called for. Iranian intelligence subcontracted retaliation to one of the Syrian intelligence services (there are 14 of them), which, in turn, subcontracted part of the retaliatory action to Libyan intelligence (at that time run by Abdullah Senoussi, Gaddafi's brother-in-law). "Did we know specifically what we were asked to do?" said Gaddafi. "We knew it would be comparable retaliation for the Iranian Airbus, but we were not told what the specific objective was," Gaddafi added."
2004:
Quote:
[Gaddafi] admitted Libya's guilt for the downing of Pan Am 103, but made clear that it was originally an Iranian [plot] ... “So the Iranians subcontracted part of the job to a Syrian intelligence service, which, in turn, asked the Libyan Mukhabarat to handle part of the assignment," Col. Gadhafi explained. "That is the way these things were planned in those days. If we had initiated the plot, we would have made sure the accusing finger was pointed in the other direction and we would have picked Cyprus, not Malta, where some of the organization was done. The others picked Malta presumably to frame us."
Discuss.
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Old 4th January 2010, 06:13 PM   #426
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Well, I've heard a number of alleged private confessions from various suspects in this affair. Jibril is alleged to have confessed. There are any number of people proffering individual pieces of evidence they happen to have, which point this way and that.

What makes this one different? Not a lot, it seems, judging from the discussion on Prof. Black's blog.

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Old 6th January 2010, 05:16 AM   #427
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Newsnight Scotland claim to have something new but for some reason I can't get it to work properly:

Quote:
Quote:

ETA: Link to text version
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Old 6th January 2010, 05:59 AM   #428
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Brief summary is that the UN European consultant on explosives has done lots of tests blowing up combinations of radio, suitcase etc and in every case (20 explosions), none of the circuit board/timer etc survived the blast, it was just dust. More on newsnight tonight.
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Old 6th January 2010, 04:19 PM   #429
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This is actually a lot more relevant in the thread specifically about the timer fragment (which I will bump).

Newsnight piece has been postponed because the Labour Party tried to depose Gordon Brown today. Possibly Friday, now.

Rolfe.

ETA: I see I'm well behind, it's already up there. Sorry, I heard about this on the morning radio news, but I've been shovelling snow all bloody day.
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Old 7th January 2010, 03:35 PM   #430
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Gordon Brewer has just announced that one of the Newsnicht ("Newsnight Scotland") items at 11pm will be "Should Megrahi ever have been convicted?"

I wish we were allowed to discuss some aspects of this in Politics, but it's apparently verboten.

Rolfe.

ETA: Just watched it, and it seems to have been a repeat of the item already under discussion from yesterday - I think it was shown in England yesterday, hence the slight confusion.

I return this discussion to the thread about the timer fragment, because that's what it was about, it didn't question the identification evidence or the Erac printout.

ETA again: The version on the BBC web site is slightly longer than what I just watched on TV - it has more criticism of Thurman.
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Old 7th January 2010, 04:58 PM   #431
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So Newsnight have investigated evidence that the MST-13 fragment was planted. The results strongly suggest that it was, and certainly warrant further testing.

Neither the report from Dr Wyatt nor the results of tests carried out pretrial seem to be available.
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Old 7th January 2010, 05:13 PM   #432
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The BBC weren't saying the F-word. Just implying either that the fragment was some random thing that happened to resemble an MST-13 timer and just happened to be there (what??), or maybe that it was indeed a bit of an MST-13 timer, but again it just happened to be there and had nothing to do with the actual bomb. (What????!!)

Did they really come up the Clyde on a banana boat?

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Old 7th January 2010, 06:08 PM   #433
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Explosions are seriously unpredictable. While glass fiber is something you would generaly expect to be reduced to dust there are plently of reports of oddities surviving explosions.
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Old 10th January 2010, 01:44 PM   #434
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Just noticed this in the Grauniad's listings:

Quote:
Friday 15th January 2010, 12.30pm
Glasgow Royal Concert Hall : Exhibition Hall

A panel of experts including Dr Jim Swire discuss the issues and outcomes following the release of Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed Al Megrahi from prison in 2009.
http://www.glasgowconcerthalls.com/w...n-Dr-Jim-Swire
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Old 10th January 2010, 04:02 PM   #435
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Mmmmm. Could be worth a visit.

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Old 11th January 2010, 04:00 PM   #436
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Actually, that looks rather worthwhile. I'm not sure if I'm in the Glasgow office that day or not, and will have a look at my diary.
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Old 11th January 2010, 04:03 PM   #437
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I wish it wasn't right in the middle of the working day though. I don't think I can get away, looking at our rota.

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Old 11th January 2010, 04:20 PM   #438
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Too much to hope someone will televise it...
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Old 13th January 2010, 09:49 AM   #439
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I decided to read "The Book of Honor, The Secret Lives and Deaths of CIA Operatives", by Ted Gup while I was away of the last few weeks.

It's an interesting read, although being honest his chapter on Matthew Gannon who was killed on 103 was my primary motive for reading it. This itself was instigated by a comment made by someone on Prof, Black blog a number of weeks ago called 'Baz'. I'm pretty sure in another comment from about a year ago, Baz asserted he was an ex-policeman. There was no indication whether this may have been US, UK, German or indeed another other nations LE agency. I'm assuming he was either Scottish or English, but that's merely a hunch, and I've no idea if he was originally involved in the original investigation or has simply become an interested party.

He also has a blog, "The Masonic Verses - Lockerbie and other Related Scams" available to read here : http://e-zeecon.blogspot.com/ Some of which is interesting and certainly provides another viewpoint for many of the issues discussed here about the 103 disaster.

However, he is fiercely adament about the 'drug theory' postulated by some as having a bearing on the way the crime was carried out as a 'hoax' and deliberate misdirection. Primarily that is, Allan Francovitch, Lester Coleman and John Ashton. Of course others claim it may have played a part, but he vehemently specifically focuses, unfairly imo, on those individuals.

Some might suggest that even if the drugs theory played no part in the actual bombing, it may have been instrumental in how the investigation, and the evidence recovered, would be steered. However, I digress.

He suggested, somewhat alarmingly for me anyway, a few weeks ago, that he did not belive that Matthew Gannon, part of a CIA team on the flight, had not been killed on 103.

....I've been interuppted here, and will come back to this later!

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Old 13th January 2010, 06:04 PM   #440
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Originally Posted by Buncrana View Post
He suggested, somewhat alarmingly for me anyway, a few weeks ago, that he did not belive that Matthew Gannon, part of a CIA team on the flight, had not been killed on 103.
I also do not believe he was not killed there. I just got in e-mail contact with Baz like yesterday. Why does weird timing haunt me here? Nevermind... His name is Barry Walker, former police on Hong Kong, no connection to the case. It's a later interest, mostly spurred by the Ian Spiro story which I only barely know about. He is British, or at least lives in the UK, unless the stuff in the e-mail was untrue.

Also he's been invited to discuss here, but has been using a public library to access the net, and this site comes up as blocked, occult. Funny.

And since we're bumping the thread, I should hope the presentation with Dr. Swire et al gets posted online, but if not - well, mostly it's stuff we already know, probably. I would like to see it though. And I've started a long working essay on my blog - what's up is close to done and shows how proven liar Giaka largely built the case, first mentioning both accused.
http://12-7-9-11.blogspot.com/2010/0...est-drive.html

Also, annoying quotes from belligerent Americans
http://12-7-9-11.blogspot.com/2010/0...cans-sigh.html
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