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Old 9th September 2021, 08:30 AM   #2001
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Jerry Coyne commenting on a 2019 book burning to appease C-IPOC...
I don't mind a symbolic book burning so long as the book in question is widely available and not out of print. I'd have to see the list of books to make a judgement in this case.
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Old 9th September 2021, 10:05 AM   #2002
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CRT in schools endorsed by four U.S. mayors

https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2021/...ding-chicagos/
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Old 9th September 2021, 10:33 AM   #2003
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
CRT in schools endorsed by four U.S. mayors

https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2021/...ding-chicagos/
None of the elements of their program seem problematic to me.
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Old 9th September 2021, 10:45 AM   #2004
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
None of the elements of their program seem problematic to me.
Of course they don't.
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Old 9th September 2021, 10:47 AM   #2005
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Of course they don't.
Feel free to point out which elements you think are untrue.

The program is quite specific.
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Old 9th September 2021, 10:54 AM   #2006
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Feel free to point out which elements you think are untrue.

The program is quite specific.
It is not quite specific.
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Old 9th September 2021, 12:04 PM   #2007
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
None of the elements of their program seem problematic to me.
#1 from that link is a problem. Coyne is a scientist and discusses how race - in a specific scientific situation - is objectively real. See the link for him discussing that briefly.
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Old 9th September 2021, 12:07 PM   #2008
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
#1 from that link is a problem. Coyne is a scientist and discusses how race - in a specific scientific situation - is objectively real. See the link for him discussing that briefly.
ETA: more precisely, race is not solely a social construct.
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Old 9th September 2021, 04:53 PM   #2009
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
#1 from that link is a problem. Coyne is a scientist and discusses how race - in a specific scientific situation - is objectively real. See the link for him discussing that briefly.
Point #3 seems iffy as well. I'd say the "primary responsibility for reproducing" inequality is growing up with unequal access to safe neighborhoods, well-resourced schools, parents who aren't constantly on edge, etc.

(Basically, material inequality perpetuates itself.)
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Old 9th September 2021, 05:30 PM   #2010
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Point #3 seems iffy as well. I'd say the "primary responsibility for reproducing" inequality is growing up with unequal access to safe neighborhoods, well-resourced schools, parents who aren't constantly on edge, etc.

(Basically, material inequality perpetuates itself.)
All the points are iffy. However that is the nature of CRT.

In other news, the Boise mayor says that her endorsement of the US Conference of Mayors statement on CRT is mistakenly included and that she doesn't endorse the proposal.
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Old 14th September 2021, 05:17 PM   #2011
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Jerry Coyne commenting on a report originating on the right-wing 'Campus Reform' website. Italics in the following quote are as per the posting:


Quote:
(Note: this report comes from a right-wing college-monitoring site and I haven’t been able to verify it. However, I don’t have reason to doubt it, either. Should I give similar caveats—from the opposite political direction—when citing PBS, the New York Times, and so on?)

This is what the madness on campus has come to: Crystal Duncan Lane, an “instructional faculty member” at Virginia Tech’s Department of Human Development and Family science, apparently handed out her syllabus for a course (I can’t find the exact course, but a student says it was “about disabilities” and the major lists “An Introduction to Disability Studies“, which must be the one). At any rate, Campus Reform, which has carried many reports that I independently gave on this site, says that Lane’s syllabus included this introduction to the instructor:

I am a Caucasian cisgender female and first-generation college student from Appalachia who is of Scottish, British, and Norwegian heritage. I am married to a cisgender male, and we are middle class. While I did not ‘ask’ for the many privileges in my life: I have benefitted from them and will continue to benefit from them whether I like it or not. This is injustice. I am and will continue to work on a daily basis to be antiracist and confront the innate racism within myself that is the reality and history of white people. I want to be better: Every day. I will transform: Every day. This work terrifies me: Every day. I invite my white students to join me on this journey. And to my students of color: I apologize for the inexcusable horrors within our shared history.

https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2021/...urse-syllabus/


Inherent Racial Characteristics are an idea that predates the 19th Century.



Inherent Racial Guilt lies at the root of many horrific events, Africans being damned for the crime of Ham was one of many 'justifications' trotted out for slavery. Jews being inherently responsible for the crucifiction of Jesus was at the root of anti-semitism.
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Old 15th September 2021, 08:09 AM   #2012
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Jerry Coyne commenting on a report originating on the right-wing 'Campus Reform' website. Italics in the following quote are as per the posting:

https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2021/...urse-syllabus/


Inherent Racial Characteristics are an idea that predates the 19th Century.



Inherent Racial Guilt lies at the root of many horrific events, Africans being damned for the crime of Ham was one of many 'justifications' trotted out for slavery. Jews being inherently responsible for the crucifiction of Jesus was at the root of anti-semitism.
I think you are getting causation backwards.

Slavery existed everywhere, it was in obvious contradiction to the enlightenment ideals so folks started looking for an excuse to keep some folks in slavery and turned to the bible and eventually "science". Same with anti-semitism. The American brand of racism is more likely the result of slavery rather than the other way around. Jews were in some case the only noticeable minority and often a successful one, various kings and nobles often needed scape goats, thus anti-semitism, now how to be justify it?

You are of course correct that there is a long history of people ascribing various characteristics to various racial or ethnic groups. There was a time when many Romans thought lighter skin folks were inherently more savage and darker skinned folks inherently effete.

Regarding the list of tenets of CRT in schools linked above.
1. True
2 and 3 are clearly controversial and problematic. Unless you think it is a good idea to teach kids that there culture and nation are inherently bad.

4. Not even sure what that means. Seems to at least in part mean that anecdotes are evidence.

One more thing:
Inherent racial guilt seems to be at the heart of Kendi's and DeAngelo's anti-racism ideology.

Last edited by ahhell; 15th September 2021 at 08:24 AM.
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Old 15th September 2021, 09:09 AM   #2013
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Regarding the list of tenets of CRT in schools linked above.
1. True
2 and 3 are clearly controversial and problematic. Unless you think it is a good idea to teach kids that there culture and nation are inherently bad.

4. Not even sure what that means. Seems to at least in part mean that anecdotes are evidence.

One more thing:
Inherent racial guilt seems to be at the heart of Kendi's and DeAngelo's anti-racism ideology.
However,
Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
#1 from that link is a problem. Coyne is a scientist and discusses how race - in a specific scientific situation - is objectively real. See the link for him discussing that briefly.
Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
ETA: more precisely, race is not solely a social construct.
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Old 15th September 2021, 09:12 AM   #2014
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
ETA: more precisely, race is not solely a social construct.
But it is a social construct, and in the context of the US, our society, and our history, the social construct is the much more important factor.
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Old 15th September 2021, 09:44 AM   #2015
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Feel free to point out which elements you think are untrue.
Under the basic tenets section, I think 1 is questionable, 2 and 3 are false, and 4 is just bizarre.

Furthermore, I don't even think that asking whether or not they're true is the relevant question. The question is whether or not we think this is what's important to focus on in K-12 education. I'd put it at the absolute bottom of the barrel, and that's being charitable.
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Old 15th September 2021, 09:53 AM   #2016
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Under the basic tenets section, I think 1 is questionable, 2 and 3 are false, and 4 is just bizarre.

Furthermore, I don't even think that asking whether or not they're true is the relevant question. The question is whether or not we think this is what's important to focus on in K-12 education. I'd put it at the absolute bottom of the barrel, and that's being charitable.
I suppose it depends on the school district whether it was important or not.

If your school district includes neighborhoods that are de-facto segregated that are experiencing generational poverty and poor educational results, perhaps its a worthwhile exercise.
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Old 15th September 2021, 11:49 AM   #2017
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I suppose it depends on the school district whether it was important or not.

If your school district includes neighborhoods that are de-facto segregated that are experiencing generational poverty and poor educational results, perhaps its a worthwhile exercise.
I'm not sure there is anywhere where it wouldn't be.

I went to a working class 99% white school district, and holy crap this would have been beneficial. The strand of white supremacy that dominated the history curriculum is staggering looking back at it. I mean, even ignoring that my 4th grade teacher told us that black people were black because they did something wrong in a previous life.

Beyond that just being gross, it hampered a lot of lives because that ignorant racism doesn't come off well when you take one of us and put us down in a situation that is at all multicultural. Racist instincts are hard things to be aware of much less unlearn, and in today's world they can be extremely limiting.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:55 PM   #2018
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
But it is a social construct, and in the context of the US, our society, and our history, the social construct is the much more important factor.
Just as long as focus on the more important factor doesn't lead people to think, as #1 does in that link, that it is the *only* factor, because I'm not sure that there can't be a time when the scientific reality isn't pertinent.

Ugh, 3 negatives in that last phrase. Sorry.
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Old 17th September 2021, 01:36 AM   #2019
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CRT in the UK, sadly I spotted this in the Daily Fail...



Quote:
The English Touring Opera has dropped 14 white musicians in a woke drive to 'increase diversity' in the company.


The musicians, aged 40 to 66, have been told they will not be offered contracts with the company in Spring 2022 citing diversity guidance from the Arts Council England, the Sunday Times reported.


The musicians, who officially work as freelancers, can be dropped from the opera season-on-season but many have played with the company for up to 20 years and consider it a permanent job.


The Arts Council England has hit back at the ETO, which it funds to the tune of £1.78 million a year, saying it never encouraged the company to sack musicians.


'We did not instruct the English Touring Opera to send this letter,' the Council said. 'We are now in conversation with ETO to ensure no funding criteria have been breached'.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...diversity.html
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Old 17th September 2021, 06:05 AM   #2020
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The letter cites changes in creative direction as the reason for not offering contracts.

Then says that they will make diversifying the presently all white orchestra a priority going forward, which almost certainly is something they are required to do by the guidelines.

Quote:
As you know, the company has appointed a new Music Director, Gerry Cornelius. Gerry will be involved in advising on freelance orchestral engagements, as you would expect; he has been tasked with working with Phil Turbett on shaping the modern orchestra, and there have been recent auditions to inform that work.
Isn't this standard in these sorts of performance fields and the reason why these contracts are freelance and year to year? Sort of like when a new manager takes over a sports team and wants to make changes as part of his future plan.

I mean, there are musicians probably climbing all over themselves to get a gig like that, and if a new director wants to go in a new direction and/or maybe prize talent over continuity then this sounds pretty standard.
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Old 17th September 2021, 08:22 AM   #2021
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Too bad the ETO doesn't have the guts to state "White People Need Not Apply" on their auditions page just to let any white people who were considering going through the time and effort of applying that they's just be wasting their time.

I had the conversation with my kid last night and he's prepared to dye his hair an unnatural colour and jump on the gender non binary bandwagon should he decide to go to university. There's some Jewish heritage buried in the background and that'll be usable and maybe some genetic testing, looking for something, anything that can be exploited for admission purposes would definitely help and may be more important than GPA when it comes time to apply.

He's got one SJW type teacher in high school, so we talked about "how to behave" what topics need to be avoided, what topics need to be embraced and no matter how twisted and tortured the teacher's logic appears to be, that teacher is in a position of power and any deviation from the social justice narrative is akin to coming out atheist in a religious based educational environment.

My kid gets it. Play the game, it'll prepare him for the corporate world and if if the teacher goes to far with this CRT white guilt origial sin stuff just let me know and I'll be down at his school and standing on his teacher's desk with a megaphone threatening a lawsuit for "emotional distress".
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Old 17th September 2021, 09:10 AM   #2022
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Too bad the ETO doesn't have the guts to state "White People Need Not Apply" on their auditions page just to let any white people who were considering going through the time and effort of applying that they's just be wasting their time.

I had the conversation with my kid last night and he's prepared to dye his hair an unnatural colour and jump on the gender non binary bandwagon should he decide to go to university. There's some Jewish heritage buried in the background and that'll be usable and maybe some genetic testing, looking for something, anything that can be exploited for admission purposes would definitely help and may be more important than GPA when it comes time to apply.

He's got one SJW type teacher in high school, so we talked about "how to behave" what topics need to be avoided, what topics need to be embraced and no matter how twisted and tortured the teacher's logic appears to be, that teacher is in a position of power and any deviation from the social justice narrative is akin to coming out atheist in a religious based educational environment.

My kid gets it. Play the game, it'll prepare him for the corporate world and if if the teacher goes to far with this CRT white guilt origial sin stuff just let me know and I'll be down at his school and standing on his teacher's desk with a megaphone threatening a lawsuit for "emotional distress".
For starters, why is he still going with "he" as his pronoun? That's so 2017. Tell him to hurry up and start identifying as something, anything else but he. Only after that do I think the hair dye is a good color. I'd recommend antifreeze yellow or a bright pink. A nose ring wouldn't hurt either.
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Old 17th September 2021, 09:22 AM   #2023
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
For starters, why is he still going with "he" as his pronoun? That's so 2017. Tell him to hurry up and start identifying as something, anything else but he. Only after that do I think the hair dye is a good color. I'd recommend antifreeze yellow or a bright pink. A nose ring wouldn't hurt either.
He is actually one of his preferred pronouns but he's willing to go with whatever is fashionable in the year he applies to university. I think all that xe, xim, zir etc. stuff has fallen y the wayside and been replaces with they/them but in a couple of years, who knows ?

I'm big on anything purple, so that's the hair dye colour I'll push for. Good call on the nose ring, I can do that for him I own a nail gun. . Maybe my wife should tech him to use eyeliner as well. We'll just frame the whole exercise as being part of the struggle for acceptance in a hostile world.
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Old 17th September 2021, 04:41 PM   #2024
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And the absurdities are piling up:

Students fight back against book ban that includes Rosa Parks, Malala and Sesame Street
Quote:
The school district in York, Pa., instituted a ban on certain books and resources surrounding race, social justice and history last October....

During the virtual meeting, school officials stated it has “frozen” the use of the materials so it could vet them; it hasn’t banned them. However, the vetting process began close to a year ago, and the school board upheld prohibiting the materials.
The all-white school board banned these books then half-assed walked it back saying it was just until they had time to look more closely at the books but it turns out that wasn't true. The Rosa Parks book is a kids' book, Malala's is a biography and the Sesame Street is a piece where Elmo asks what racism is.

Quote:
The ban has had wide implications for school librarians and teachers, who say that on top of their moral objections to it, it also instills a fear for their job safety.

"I have to now, with this resource ban, think twice about whether or not I should or could use a James Baldwin quote as an opening for my class," said Central York High School teacher Ben Hodge.
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Old 17th September 2021, 04:46 PM   #2025
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
He is actually one of his preferred pronouns but he's willing to go with whatever is fashionable in the year he applies to university. I think all that xe, xim, zir etc. stuff has fallen y the wayside and been replaces with they/them but in a couple of years, who knows ?

I'm big on anything purple, so that's the hair dye colour I'll push for. Good call on the nose ring, I can do that for him I own a nail gun. . Maybe my wife should tech him to use eyeliner as well. We'll just frame the whole exercise as being part of the struggle for acceptance in a hostile world.
I've seen this movie before... Soul Man, 1986.
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Old 17th September 2021, 05:18 PM   #2026
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I found this on the Institute for Higher Education site, the opinion piece is arguing that the problem is not what is being taught, but how,certainly I've seen in other fora the idea that the problem with CRT is it's tendency to 'preach' rather than ask.


Quote:
In the wake of George Floyd’s murder, colleges and universities across the country have enthusiastically embraced training as a tool to promote racial justice. These trainings go by different names, including sensitivity training, diversity training and antiracism training.


Here are some things training is good for: customer service, Excel and CPR. One thing it’s not good for: diversity, equity and inclusion.

https://www.insidehighered.com/views...issues-opinion
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Old 17th September 2021, 05:23 PM   #2027
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
I've seen this movie before... Soul Man, 1986.
Yea, the whole transracial thing hasn't really taken off yet. He's watching a lot of Anime and a background in K-pop couldn't hurt, just in case.
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Old 18th September 2021, 06:43 PM   #2028
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Too bad the ETO doesn't have the guts to state "White People Need Not Apply" on their auditions page just to let any white people who were considering going through the time and effort of applying that they's just be wasting their time.

I had the conversation with my kid last night and he's prepared to dye his hair an unnatural colour and jump on the gender non binary bandwagon should he decide to go to university. There's some Jewish heritage buried in the background and that'll be usable and maybe some genetic testing, looking for something, anything that can be exploited for admission purposes would definitely help and may be more important than GPA when it comes time to apply.

He's got one SJW type teacher in high school, so we talked about "how to behave" what topics need to be avoided, what topics need to be embraced and no matter how twisted and tortured the teacher's logic appears to be, that teacher is in a position of power and any deviation from the social justice narrative is akin to coming out atheist in a religious based educational environment.

My kid gets it. Play the game, it'll prepare him for the corporate world and if if the teacher goes to far with this CRT white guilt origial sin stuff just let me know and I'll be down at his school and standing on his teacher's desk with a megaphone threatening a lawsuit for "emotional distress".

Awww, how adorable!
I nearly believed that a single word of it was true.
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Old 18th September 2021, 06:57 PM   #2029
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
Awww, how adorable!
I nearly believed that a single word of it was true.
Who knows these days. I definitely know people who act like that.

Their kids are basically doomed. Even if they have sense and don't become bitter hateful people it is traumatic to find out a parent is an irrational mess.
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Old 18th September 2021, 07:09 PM   #2030
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Who knows these days. I definitely know people who act like that.

Their kids are basically doomed. Even if they have sense and don't become bitter hateful people it is traumatic to find out a parent is an irrational mess.
If you want to see true rationality in action, you have to look at the Twitterfeed of one of the original anti-CRT people, James Lindsay. He started going Dave Rubin, but now you will see someone who is going full-blown Alex Jones.

Judging by Stout's fantasies about leaping on desks with a megaphone, it seems Lindsay is not the only one.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 18th September 2021, 07:49 PM   #2031
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post

Judging by Stout's fantasies about leaping on desks with a megaphone, it seems Lindsay is not the only one.
You gotta know that was figurative language, right ? I wouldn't actually stage a protest/occupation/sit in. No. of course not. All I'd do is schedule a meeting and go after the teacher's professionalism if this White Fragility stuff becomes too intrusive.

We just had a good laugh over the whole Coca Cola and their course teaching their employees to Be Less White and how they pulled it the moment the existence of the course went public.

Remember when schools thought it was a good idea to include Christian prayer as part of the school day and not that idea is soundly mocked ? That's what's going to happen to this SJW stuff too.
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Old 18th September 2021, 11:04 PM   #2032
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
You gotta know that was figurative language, right ? I wouldn't actually stage a protest/occupation/sit in. No. of course not. All I'd do is schedule a meeting and go after the teacher's professionalism if this White Fragility stuff becomes too intrusive.
Nothing rebuts claims of white fragility like a demand to see the manager to complain.

Shouldn't white supremacy include being able to handle criticism of white people? The thick skin and all that...
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Old 19th September 2021, 02:47 AM   #2033
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I get it that there is plenty of woke stuff to point and laugh at. What gets me is the number of SNOWFLAKES who melt down over it.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 19th September 2021, 06:21 AM   #2034
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I can't actually work out where this should go. In the Cancel Culture thread or the CRT thread.

I would like to make that meme of the guy sweating and trying to work out which button to press: "End Cancel Culture!" or "Ban CRT!"
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File Type: jpg CRT Rufo and Lindsay.jpg (68.5 KB, 14 views)
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old Yesterday, 09:34 AM   #2035
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Nothing rebuts claims of white fragility like a demand to see the manager to complain.
It more along the lines of staging a protest than a Karen meme. This might be a good time to examine the Karen stereotype for it's inherent misogyny and consider using a non gendered description instead.

Quote:
Shouldn't white supremacy include being able to handle criticism of white people? The thick skin and all that...
Just suppose......Somebody wasn't a racist and they didn't have anything to do with white supremacy. That would be like believing in God but not being, say a foaming at the mouth rabid Catholic. Now just suppose, against your expectations and desires, the public school system turned staunch Catholic where your belief in a higher power wasn't good enough and unless you converted to Catholicism your academic and social stand might be negatively affected ?

You're going to want to tell those Catholics to pound sand, right ?

This might be a time to examine the phrase "thick skin". In a world where micro aggressions are traumatizing and words are violence telling someone to have a thick skin is something that, like "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps" would be expected to come from a conservative.
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Old Today, 09:53 AM   #2036
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Seems the anti-CRT reactionaries are not content with stripping racial history out of education, also want to erase LGBT people and topics from the consciousness.

Quote:
Republican lawmakers in Wisconsin want to require schools to notify parents and guardians before providing any program related to sexual orientation, gender, gender identity, or gender expression.

Proponents of a bill introduced Wednesday argue that parents know what’s best for their children and should be entitled to know if information is being taught that may conflict with their religious beliefs so they can excuse their children from the lesson or have discussions at home about it.
https://www.wpr.org/republican-bill-...ntation-gender
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