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Old 13th September 2021, 05:39 PM   #281
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
References?
Especially references.
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Old 13th September 2021, 08:28 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Breathtaking in its ignorance.

How many Al Qaeda attacks have there been, and how many killed - apart from 9/11?

I can't be bothered checking,
You can’t be bothered to check, but you want to lecture others about ignorance? Wow. I admit, I did not see that coming.
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Old 13th September 2021, 08:45 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
While there's no doubt some elements of the Taliban are indulging in sadistic fantasies, they're certainly trying to stand up to criticism as a government:

Quote:
That's a 1000% improvement on their previous position of not allowing women to study at all.

And an interesting side-note in that story:

Quote:
The announcement comes after a demonstration by women supportive of the Taliban's gender policies at Shaheed Rabbani Education University in Kabul yesterday.

Hundreds of women, most of them wearing black niqabs and carrying small Taliban flags, listened to speeches that praised the new regime and attacked those involved in large demonstrations across the country demanding the protection of women's rights.

Higher Education Minister Abdul Baqi Haqqani indicated women would be allowed to study, but not alongside men.
Thanks for trying to stay on topic.

Yes, some things have changed a lot in 20 years, even if some things haven't.

Also of note,

"The newly installed minister also said that the subjects taught in universities will be reviewed. He told reporters that the Taliban wanted to "create a reasonable and Islamic curriculum that is in line with our Islamic, national and historical values and, on the other hand, be able to compete with other countries"."

I wonder what that will mean.
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Old 14th September 2021, 02:24 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I wholeheartedly agree. I would respect a political party that espoused the goals while repudiating terrorism as a tool to achieve those goals. Sinn Fein didn't do that. As you say, they affiliated with the IRA.
Actually, yes, they did.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...076-story.html

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Usually the emissary of an enemy army, sent to negotiate terms under flag of truce, is well-understood to be a member of that army and a party to their aggression.
Only if the other side recognises that it is an army. The British government did not recognise the IRA as an army, only as terrorists.
Interestingly, so did you, until this last point.
Which are they- an army or a terrorist organisation?

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Carrot and stick are well-recognized tools of extortion. The extortionist that offers the carrot as an alternative is complicit in the same extortion racket as his partner who is offering the stick.

Sinn Fein wasn't a disinterested third party, trying to bring peace as a neutral facilitator of negotiations. They were the IRA's political arm, trying to advance a terrorist agenda by offering more terrorism as an alternative to negotiating with them.
Not really, no. They wanted Northern Ireland to be reunited with Eire. That is not, in itself, a terrorist agenda.
I see no real issue with trying to do this by political means, either. Negotiation is negotiation: extortion is something different. It would be just as easy to argue that the British government was doing exactly the same thing.
The accords actually happened, and actually worked, because both sides stepped away from the kind of inflammatory language and entrenched hostility that you are displaying here.
Thankfully.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm not saying you should never negotiate with terrorists. I'm just saying you should be clear that's what's going on.
And I would not characterise your post here as 'knowing what's going on'.
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Old 14th September 2021, 06:24 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
"The newly installed minister also said that the subjects taught in universities will be reviewed. He told reporters that the Taliban wanted to "create a reasonable and Islamic curriculum that is in line with our Islamic, national and historical values and, on the other hand, be able to compete with other countries"."

I wonder what that will mean.
It means he's admitting it will be religiously dogmatic but he still wants to pretend that they will be competitive even though obviously they won't be.
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Old 14th September 2021, 06:55 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
References?
Is your google broken?

Just take one single attack, for example. Madrid 2004. 193 dead in a single Al Qaeda attack. That one attack blows The Atheist's claim out of the water (haha) on it's lonesome.

Want more? I got them. But you could look them up yourself were you vaguely motivated.
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Old 14th September 2021, 07:06 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Breathtaking in its ignorance.

How many Al Qaeda attacks have there been, and how many killed - apart from 9/11?
Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?

Why should we exclude 9/11 in our considerations of the risk that Al Qaeda poses? That doesn't actually make any sense.
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Old 14th September 2021, 07:10 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?

Why should we exclude 9/11 in our considerations of the risk that Al Qaeda poses? That doesn't actually make any sense.
It's even more nonsensical than that. Not only does our protagonist want to exclude 911, he wants to exclude any attack not on western soil. Thus the Bali bombings are excluded, The USS Cole is excluded. And so on. Also, deaths of brown people must be excluded because they simply do not count as people. Or victims. Or deaths.
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Old 14th September 2021, 07:15 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?

Why should we exclude 9/11 in our considerations of the risk that Al Qaeda poses? That doesn't actually make any sense.
Well, it is interesting that even without their big one-time set piece, AQ still beat sharks by two decimal places.
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Old 14th September 2021, 07:28 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Yeah, after almost a hundred years of being the terrorist political wing, they finally gave up. So yes, I will concede that after 1998, some terrorist affiliates renounced their affiliation in a (largely successful) attempt to avoid being caught up in any eventual Nuremburg for their complicity in terrorism.

Quote:
Only if the other side recognises that it is an army. The British government did not recognise the IRA as an army, only as terrorists.
Interestingly, so did you, until this last point.
Which are they- an army or a terrorist organisation?
Please don't do this. A fighting force is a fighting force. The emissaries of a fighting force are part of that force. A terrorist organization is just an army that commits the war crime of not observing the principle of military distinction. My argument does not depend on the UK government officially declaring "that's an army!". You know this.

Quote:
Not really, no. They wanted Northern Ireland to be reunited with Eire. That is not, in itself, a terrorist agenda.
Don't do this. The terrorist agenda was using terrorism to pursue this goal. You know this.

Quote:
I see no real issue with trying to do this by political means, either. Negotiation is negotiation: extortion is something different. It would be just as easy to argue that the British government was doing exactly the same thing.
I am indeed open to the argument that the British government engaged in terrorism during the conflict.

Quote:
The accords actually happened, and actually worked, because both sides stepped away from the kind of inflammatory language and entrenched hostility that you are displaying here.
Sinn Fein and the IRA tried to have it both ways: Terrorism, and negotiations to stop the terrorism. Another word for that is extortion. Sinn Fein was a party to that extortion racket.

Quote:
Thankfully.
I believe it's possible to be thankful for the outcome and also honest about what happened and who was involved.

Quote:
And I would not characterise your post here as 'knowing what's going on'.
I'm aware of the nature of our disagreement. If we can at least agree that Sinn Fein was indeed affiliated with terrorists from roughly 1905 to 1998, I'm happy.
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Old 14th September 2021, 08:47 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm aware of the nature of our disagreement. If we can at least agree that Sinn Fein was indeed affiliated with terrorists from roughly 1905 to 1998, I'm happy.
No, and it would really help your position if you did some actual research.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Sinn_F%C3%A9in
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Old 14th September 2021, 10:16 AM   #292
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Yeah I'm not going to keep arguing with someone who is obviously insane and genuinely thinks 9/11 and other Al-Qaeda terrorist attacks aren't a threat sufficient enough to warrant a military response.

Terrorists killing (and continuing to kill) hundreds and even thousands of people at once in countries around the world is just a "nothing burger" that we can't do anything about.
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Old 14th September 2021, 11:14 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Is your google broken?

Just take one single attack, for example. Madrid 2004. 193 dead in a single Al Qaeda attack. That one attack blows The Atheist's claim out of the water (haha) on it's lonesome.

Want more? I got them. But you could look them up yourself were you vaguely motivated.
So, to try to justify your claim of approximately 4813 fatalities from Al Qaeda attacks:
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Al Quaeda attack fatalities 2000-2016 = 4813 approx (excluding 9/11 of course)
you just quote the 193 fatalities from the Madrid train bombings (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_M...train_bombings).

How serious is this? (this doesn't seem very serious to me). If you make a claim, it is up to you to back it up.

The attack in Spain indicates that the U.S. illegal invasions of 2001 (Afghanistan) and 2003 (Iraq) did not neutralize Al Qaeda (this was obviously to be expected: how can one hope to defeat an international jihadist organization by just invading Afghanistan?), but may in fact have stimulated them and made them more dangerous:
Quote:
The bombings constituted the deadliest terrorist attack carried out in the history of Spain and the deadliest in Europe since 1988.[4] The official investigation by the Spanish judiciary found that the attacks were directed by Al-Qaeda in Iraq,[5][6] allegedly as a reaction to Spain's involvement in the 2003 US-led invasion of Iraq.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_M...train_bombings).
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Old 14th September 2021, 11:19 AM   #294
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Michel H- I agree that the legal justification for the Iraq invasion was highly dubious, but I'm not sure about Afghanistan. On what grounds do you say it was illegal?
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Old 14th September 2021, 11:22 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Michel H- I agree that the legal justification for the Iraq invasion was highly dubious, but I'm not sure about Afghanistan. On what grounds do you say it was illegal?
The invasion of Iraq was backed by UNSC resolutions and a voluntary coalition of like-minded sovereign states. I have yet to see a higher legal authority for invasion of a sovereign state than that.
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Old 14th September 2021, 11:51 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Michel H- I agree that the legal justification for the Iraq invasion was highly dubious, but I'm not sure about Afghanistan. On what grounds do you say it was illegal?
Because the United Nations Charter states that;
Quote:
All members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations.
(https://www.lawteacher.net/free-law-...-law-essay.php).

The invasion of Afghanistan was neither in self-defense against an armed attack by Afghanistan (as a country) against the U.S. nor authorized by a U.N. Security Council resolution authorizing the use of force.

One might say that the 2001 attack in the U.S. was itself a revenge attack by Muslims who felt persecuted by the U.S., who were themselves acting in self-defense. Indeed, we do know that this was bin Laden's point of view:
Quote:
God knows it did not cross our minds to attack the Towers, but after the situation became unbearable—and we witnessed the injustice and tyranny of the American-Israeli alliance against our people in Palestine and Lebanon—I thought about it. And the events that affected me directly were that of 1982 and the events that followed—when America allowed the Israelis to invade Lebanon, helped by the US Sixth Fleet. As I watched the destroyed towers in Lebanon, it occurred to me punish the unjust the same way: to destroy towers in America so it could taste some of what we are tasting and to stop killing our children and women.

— Osama bin Laden, 2004
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden).

According to American journalist Chris Hedges:
Quote:
We Americans kill with an inchoate fury. The evil we do is the evil we get
(https://www.rt.com/op-ed/534562-al-q...ans-terrorism/).

So, I believe that the best method for the U.S., to protect its citizens is to stop constantly implementing policies which generate anger and unnecessary suffering throughout the world (economic sanctions, massive support for the occupying power Israel, too frequent use of military methods, stockpiling of nuclear bombs, excessive military spending ...). This is, I think, the right approach, which could produce really good results.

There is some limited improvement with the current Biden administration, but this limited improvement is not enough, in my opinion.
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Old 14th September 2021, 12:51 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
I will take that bet.
Cool - how much do you want on it?

I'll put up a gorilla right now.

Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Al Quaeda attack fatalities 2000-2016 = 4813 approx (excluding 9/11 of course)

It is like you never check anything, ever.


Oh I just love it when people PWN themselves without any input from me at all.

I did state "in the western world" and I think your figures are nonsense, so as just asked, please provide evidence for your outlandish claim.

Here's a handy list to start with: https://www.reuters.com/article/idIN...56711920110502

Since 9/11, I can see 45 in the UK and not much else.

Sharks looking good at this stage.

Try reading next time.
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Old 14th September 2021, 01:07 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You can’t be bothered to check, but you want to lecture others about ignorance? Wow. I admit, I did not see that coming.
Except, it turns out I was pretty close to the mark.

Al Qaeda attacks on the west have killed about 200, while sharks are known to have killed half that number, with unquestionably many more not known.

Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
It's even more nonsensical than that. Not only does our protagonist want to exclude 911, he wants to exclude any attack not on western soil. Thus the Bali bombings are excluded, The USS Cole is excluded. And so on. Also, deaths of brown people must be excluded because they simply do not count as people. Or victims. Or deaths.
What utter bollocks.

The question was about western retaliation for Al Qaeda attacks. Since we know from Rwanda, CAR, Zimbo, China and numerous other countries, the west doesn't involve itself in wars where brown and black people are dying.

And as to deaths, your position is laughable. Take all Al Qaeda deaths and it will be a fraction of the lives lost in or due to the wars of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Look, numbers!

The war on Afghanistan cost in excess of $2T and 7000 American lives directly lost during the Afghanwar.

Since A'stan and Iraq 30,000 US grunts have topped themselves.

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/...ilitary/killed

Yet, here you and a couple of other notables are, claiming the war was morally right and saved lives.

I call ******** on that.

Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Terrorists killing (and continuing to kill) hundreds and even thousands of people at once in countries around the world is just a "nothing burger" that we can't do anything about.
There are stupid positions to espouse, then there are idiotic ones.

I've stated it now several times - if USA stopped encouraging others to attack it due to its indiscriminate killing of brown people, they wouldn't attack America.

The thing America could do is keep its vile military-industrial complex out of other countries.

And while you're wallowing in your faux righteousness, ask yourself what the west is doing to stop Al-Shabaab, Boko Haram and other groups that only kill black people.
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Old 14th September 2021, 01:08 PM   #299
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I note a line has been passed. One of the pro Taliban defenders here has pretty much stated that the 9/11 attacks were justified.
I knew it would come to this.just a matter of when.
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Old 14th September 2021, 01:37 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Except, it turns out I was pretty close to the mark.

Al Qaeda attacks on the west have killed about 200, while sharks are known to have killed half that number, with unquestionably many more not known.
"Unquestionably"? I question it, very much.

And why the restriction to just the west? Why exclude 9/11? Might as well exclude shark attacks that happen in waters deeper than 5 feet for your comparison.

Quote:
The question was about western retaliation for Al Qaeda attacks. Since we know from Rwanda, CAR, Zimbo, China and numerous other countries, the west doesn't involve itself in wars where brown and black people are dying.
This is rich, given that you apparently don't even want us to. After all, you've excluded Al Qaeda murders outside the west, because apparently you don't think they matter.

Quote:
The war on Afghanistan cost in excess of $2T and 7000 American lives directly lost during the Afghanwar.

Since A'stan and Iraq 30,000 US grunts have topped themselves.

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/...ilitary/killed

Yet, here you and a couple of other notables are, claiming the war was morally right and saved lives.
Pearl Harbor only killed 3,000 US troops. But WW2 killed over 400,000 US troops. I guess that means we should have stayed out of the war. Hitler really wasn't so bad. And he did have grievances against the Jews.

Quote:
I've stated it now several times - if USA stopped encouraging others to attack it due to its indiscriminate killing of brown people, they wouldn't attack America.
This is stupid and wrong.

History quiz: what was the first foreign war that the US was involved in?

Quote:
And while you're wallowing in your faux righteousness, ask yourself what the west is doing to stop Al-Shabaab, Boko Haram and other groups that only kill black people.
Once again, you didn't bother to check, did you? Here's but one example, easily located:
https://prnigeria.com/2019/02/27/us-...ce-insurgency/
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Old 14th September 2021, 05:26 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Except, it turns out I was pretty close to the mark.

Al Qaeda attacks on the west have killed about 200, while sharks are known to have killed half that number, with unquestionably many more not known.
But you claimed that sharks killed far more than al qaeda. No, you are claiming that al qaeda killed more than sharks. Could you please make up your mind such as it is?

193 dead in Madrid. 52 dead in London. Shall I add more? Or are you content to pretend none of it ever happened?

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
What utter bollocks.
Not to all the corpses that you deny exist.

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
The question was about western retaliation for Al Qaeda attacks. Since we know from Rwanda, CAR, Zimbo, China and numerous other countries, the west doesn't involve itself in wars where brown and black people are dying.
Sure. You think brown and black people are not people and are trivially expendable. we get that.

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
And as to deaths, your position is laughable. Take all Al Qaeda deaths and it will be a fraction of the lives lost in or due to the wars of Iraq and Afghanistan.
Rollin' rollin' rollin;. Keep those goalposts rollin' rawhide.


Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Look, numbers!
Sure. In assessing the death toll we should not even attempt to count the death toll. That makes sense, right?

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
The war on Afghanistan cost in excess of $2T and 7000 American lives directly lost during the Afghanwar.

Since A'stan and Iraq 30,000 US grunts have topped themselves.

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/...ilitary/killed
But you dclaimed that the death toll does not matter already.

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Yet, here you and a couple of other notables are, claiming the war was morally right and saved lives.
I made no such claim. You made that up out of whole cloth.

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I call ******** on that.
It is easy to call BS on a claim you made up.



Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
There are stupid positions to espouse, then there are idiotic ones.

I've stated it now several times - if USA stopped encouraging others to attack it due to its indiscriminate killing of brown people, they wouldn't attack America.
You have also made it clear that brown people don't count.

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
The thing America could do is keep its vile military-industrial complex out of other countries.
Oh marvelous. The MIC conspiracy nonsense.

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
And while you're wallowing in your faux righteousness, ask yourself what the west is doing to stop Al-Shabaab, Boko Haram and other groups that only kill black people.
What do you care? Those swarthy people are not people at all in your world view.
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Old 14th September 2021, 05:43 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Cool - how much do you want on it?

I'll put up a gorilla right now.





Oh I just love it when people PWN themselves without any input from me at all.

I did state "in the western world" and I think your figures are nonsense, so as just asked, please provide evidence for your outlandish claim.

Here's a handy list to start with: https://www.reuters.com/article/idIN...56711920110502

Since 9/11, I can see 45 in the UK and not much else.

Sharks looking good at this stage.

Try reading next time.
Madrid 2004, 193 dead. London 2005 52 dead. Bataclan 12 dead.

And you want to pretend that more are killed by sharks? Seriously?
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Old 14th September 2021, 05:46 PM   #303
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Only one group. Only one region. And they still out kill sharks. Imagine if we tabulated all Islamofascist killings worldwide. There are nation states who have carried out less murderous genocides.
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Old 14th September 2021, 05:49 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I note a line has been passed. One of the pro Taliban defenders here has pretty much stated that the 9/11 attacks were justified.
I knew it would come to this.just a matter of when.
Methinks you're confusing the reasons for the attack with justification.

Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Madrid 2004, 193 dead. London 2005 52 dead. Bataclan 12 dead.

And you want to pretend that more are killed by sharks? Seriously?
Pfft.

How's your claim of 4000 standing up to scrutiny? I see you backed off it pretty fast.

The couple of hundred deaths caused by Al Qaeda are a lot closer to shark deaths than the four thousand you hung your hat on.
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Old 14th September 2021, 05:51 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yeah, after almost a hundred years of being the terrorist political wing, they finally gave up.
Hahahaha. No. Just no. You have no clue.
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Old 14th September 2021, 05:53 PM   #306
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Trouble in paradise already?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...om-public-view
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Old 14th September 2021, 06:13 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Hahahaha. No. Just no. You have no clue.
I'd like to think that I at least have the clue that affiliating yourself with terrorists makes you a party to their terrorism.

But tell me more about how Sinn Fein was not always actually in league with the IRA.
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Old 14th September 2021, 06:37 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'd like to think that I at least have the clue that affiliating yourself with terrorists makes you a party to their terrorism.

But tell me more about how Sinn Fein was not always actually in league with the IRA.
In league? Seriously?

Oh boy.

The shinners ARE the IRA.

Not the moderate wing, Not the political wing. The actual IRA in the flesh. Brazenly pretending that they never ever put bullets in people when we all know they did.

Exactly how naive are you?
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Old 14th September 2021, 06:41 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
In league? Seriously?

Oh boy.

The shinners ARE the IRA.

Not the moderate wing, Not the political wing. The actual IRA in the flesh. Brazenly pretending that they never ever put bullets in people when we all know they did.

Exactly how naive are you?
You have entirely the wrong end of the stick. Stop trying to attack me. Start trying to understand what I've been arguing all along.

Your beef is with Cosmic Yak, not me
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Old 14th September 2021, 11:38 PM   #310
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Having spent decades working hard to undermine the safety, wellbeing and livelihoods of the Afghan people with ruthless indiscriminate attacks against government forces and civilians alike, the Taliban are now asking the international community to pay for the damage they have caused.

Quote:
“We faced each other in battle, we didn’t get to know each other in normal times,” said Talib Mawlawi, a Helmand native who fought for the Taliban the first time the group controlled Afghanistan. “Now you can win our hearts and make us happy if you recognise this government."

...

“All those foreign countries invaded and killed our women and our children and our old people, and destroyed everything,” he said. Now the international community should help us with humanitarian aid and focus on developing education, business and trade.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...money-not-guns

Although described as an interview it comes off as little more than an airing of yet another demand from the Taliban eventhough they have done absolutely nothing to earn any goodwill.

Of course the journalist can be excused for not asking any hard questions given the risk to their life if they were to anger the gun-toting terrorist.
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Old 15th September 2021, 11:57 PM   #311
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A BBC article which assesses what life is like under the Taliban.

Quote:
At Afghanistan's border with Uzbekistan a cargo train rolls over a bridge and into the newly created "Islamic Emirate". The Taliban's white and black flag flutters next to the Uzbek one. Some traders have welcomed the group's return to power. The driver of a truck being loaded with wheat tells me in the past he was regularly forced to pay bribes to corrupt police officials whenever passing their checkpoints. "Now, it's not like that," he says. "I could drive all the way to Kabul and not pay a penny."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-58550640

As has been pointed out in this thread and elsewhere, the previous Afghani regime was horribly corrupt and this directly affected the Afghan people.

People are understandably worried about crime and security and the Taliban are tackling this in their brutal, medieval, way.

Quote:
As we leave the Blue Mosque, we spot a large and excited crowd by the main road, and elbow our way to the centre. Four dead bodies with bullet wounds are laid out on display. One has a small handwritten note on top of it describing the men as kidnappers, warning other criminals their punishment will be the same.

Despite the smell of the bodies under the hot sun, the crowd snap photos and try to push past each other for a better look. Violent crime has long been a major problem in Afghanistan's big cities, and even their critics credit the Taliban with improving security. One onlooker tells us, "If they are kidnappers it's a good thing. It will be a lesson for others."
The Taliban are an unacceptable, brutal, theocratic regime but it seems that, for many Afghans, the previous regime was even worse. I cannot imagine what living under constant fear of drone strike of having a military squad come through your village destroying it in the process.
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Old 18th September 2021, 02:55 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I note a line has been passed. One of the pro Taliban defenders here has pretty much stated that the 9/11 attacks were justified.
I knew it would come to this.just a matter of when.
I think it is reasonable to say why terrorists think their actions are justified. One may not agree that their reasons are a justification for violence, but if one seeks to defeat terrorism (not just militarily, but ideologically and politically) one needs to stand in their shoes and see the world from their viewpoint. Alqaeda did not come out of nowhere, unless the causes are understood it or something like it is going to persist. So we see that Bin Laden justifies his actions by reference to the genocidal massacre of 2,000 Palestinians by forces under the supervision of the IDF, 5,000 civilian deaths during the siege of Beirut and a total of 20,000 deaths overall during the Israeli invasion, mostly done with US supplied weapons. Certainly the massacre of the Palestinians was a war crime. But not a sufficient war crime for the US to do anything about. In my opinion the US was as complicit in the massacre as the Taliban were in 9/11. That is neither were guilty.

Sharon is dead, Bin Laden is dead, but there will be people who remember the atrocities they committed.

Another more proximate justification is the continued presence of US military in Syria, Iraq etc. The continued habit of the US to fly missiles into buildings killing innocent civilians, often based on poor intelligence. Doing this is more about intimidation, sad that a family was killed but it made the point. Pretty much terrorism. So long as there are people who can say the US flies missiles into buildings and kills women and children because they are muslims and brown, so flying a plane into a building and killing Americans is just following the US example.

To be clear I do not believe this. But I am perhaps closer to what is said in the Islamic world than some. Even many moderate non-violent muslims see a direct equivalence between 9/11 and drone attacks. The number of civilians killed in drone strikes and 9/11 are roughly the same. They do not see the invasion of Afghanistan or Iraq as justified, more the US lashing out in anger at brown people and muslims in general. They do not see the US imposed governments in Afghanistan or Iraq as benevolent or functional, both are highly corrupt and fail in providing security.

Finally please do not mistake these views for ones I believe in, all I am trying to do is bring an alternative view held by many.
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Old 18th September 2021, 03:56 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Finally please do not mistake these views for ones I believe in, all I am trying to do is bring an alternative view held by many.
Bloody well said.

Put down the guns.
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Old 18th September 2021, 04:39 AM   #314
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Oh look: the Taliban have opened secondary schools ("high schools") for boys but there is no mention of girls being allowed to go to high-school.

Quote:
The*Taliban*education ministry said secondary school classes for boys in grades seven to 12 would resume on Saturday, the start of the Afghan week. “All male teachers and students should attend their educational institutions,” the statement said. The future of girls and female teachers, stuck at home since the Taliban took control, was not addressed.

The edict makes Afghanistan the only country on earth to bar half its population from getting a secondary education.

In a further sign that the recently announced Taliban government is tightening restrictions on women, the former ministry of women’s affairs building in Kabul has been handed over to the newly re-established ministry for the prevention of vice and promotion of virtue.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...in-afghanistan
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Old 18th September 2021, 05:00 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
In my opinion the US was as complicit in the massacre as the Taliban were in 9/11. That is neither were guilty.
Oh okay so I knowingly rent out a piece of property to people who I know with absolute certainty are using it in committing crimes. I give them aid, assistance, associate with them, defend them even after the police warn me and refuse to do anything to stop or evict them.

I'm completely innocent of any crimes according to you. Go ahead and try that one in court.
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Old 18th September 2021, 07:02 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Oh okay so I knowingly rent out a piece of property to people who I know with absolute certainty are using it in committing crimes. I give them aid, assistance, associate with them, defend them even after the police warn me and refuse to do anything to stop or evict them.

I'm completely innocent of any crimes according to you. Go ahead and try that one in court.
I provide weapons to people who have come to a peace agreement that I have brokered. When those people break the peace agreement I have been a guarantor for, and commit war crimes using weapons I supply then I am not complicit.

I train and provide weapons to Islamic terrorists to fight against the USSR but I am not complicit in the terrorism.

The Taliban never had the type of command and control that the US has when it's armed forces commit massacres, when the Israelis allow genocide to happen, when CIA trained armed and paid terrorists commit terrorism. Alqaeda was under the protection of the Haqqani network (terrorists and criminals without doubt), the Taliban had little or no authority to deliver what the US wanted. Alqaeda was essentially a creation of the US, the Taliban had no part in creating Alqaeda, they did not agree with their ideology, but the Arab jihadists and the haqqani network were (and are) a military power that the Taliban can only negotiate with not command.

If the Taliban asked the US to hand over the US general who ordered that family of ten (including seven children, the youngest two) for trial what would the US do? If they said Biden has command responsibility (and I suspect the decision to attack was at least signed off by Potus), would the US hand over Biden for a trial in afghanistan for the killing of those children. The US could have alerted the Taliban to the issue. Given the road blocks it was unlikely the suspected car bomb could get to the airport without going through Taliban road blocks. The US made a political decision that a show of force was needed, perhaps vengeance for US deaths. The decision seems pretty negligent, at minimum the general should be charged with negligent homicide. But I guess like the captain of the US ship that shot down a civilian airliner he will get a medal. When the US military commits terrorism there is not much evidence of justice.

If the UK informed the US that an Irish citizen resident in the USA was a terrorist and wanted that terrorist handed over for trial what would the US do?

ETA (Also consider the funding from the US for Irish terrorism and US weapons supplied to Irish terrorists; it not a coincidence that once the US realised the nature of terrorism post 9/11 and support for the IRA was switched off that peace rapidly came to Ireland.)

ETA 2 To be clear my point is the US and the Taliban are equally innocent of international terrorism not that they have no involvement initially.

Last edited by Planigale; 18th September 2021 at 07:12 AM.
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Old 18th September 2021, 09:30 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Alqaeda was essentially a creation of the US

...

ETA (Also consider the funding from the US for Irish terrorism and US weapons supplied to Irish terrorists; it not a coincidence that once the US realised the nature of terrorism post 9/11 and support for the IRA was switched off that peace rapidly came to Ireland.)
You certainly have some very interesting opinions and i think I've had heard more about them than i can handle.
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Old 18th September 2021, 10:35 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
You certainly have some very interesting opinions and i think I've had heard more about them than i can handle.
Thank you.

My point is these things happened. They are done by agents of the US government. That does not mean that it was policy of the US government, nor that it was the intent of the US government. Yet people seem to give responsibility to the Taliban of actions by others it had little control over. The US government is given a pass on kidnapping, detainment without trial, torture, extra judicial execution, assassination, mass murder, terrorism and illegal war that is not granted to the Taliban.

The Taliban may or not allow girls to attend secondary education in future. I do not know the future nor does anyone else. If they do not it is a bad thing. But probably less bad than killing them before they get a chance to be educated. US financial sanctions that are predominantly on muslim countries lead to children dying because of lack of access to medicines and healthcare equipment.

China's influence is growing because it helps countries (all be it in their own self interest), but it does not judge, it does not punish, or attack, or kill in the way the US does. I do not want a dominant China, but the US is perceived as a bully, and increasingly I think US bullying will drive people to China's protection.

My guess is China will make a pragmatic deal with the Taliban, the Taliban permit no interference with internal China affairs and China will not interfere with internal Afghan affairs. It will just fund infrastructure and resource development. China will protect its back garden in the sameway as the US views Latin America and the Caribbean as being within its sphere of influence. The US gained far more with a carrot in the past and now it seems focussed on using a big stick.

Last edited by Planigale; 18th September 2021 at 10:37 AM.
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Old 18th September 2021, 10:03 PM   #319
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I'll just point out that peace came to (North) Ireland in 1998, that is three years before 9/11 even happened. This had very little if anything to do with a lack of money or weapons from the US.

But hey, don't let such facts get in the way of your terrorism apologetics.
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Old 19th September 2021, 06:08 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I'll just point out that peace came to (North) Ireland in 1998, that is three years before 9/11 even happened. This had very little if anything to do with a lack of money or weapons from the US.

But hey, don't let such facts get in the way of your terrorism apologetics.
You really think that happened? Yes a subset of some atrocities stopped but the violence continued and continues to today with the various terrorist groups still killing the like of prison officers, never mind the violence they inflict to ensure their criminal activities continue.
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