IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Coronavirus , vaccines

Reply
Old 10th September 2021, 10:33 AM   #2081
TellyKNeasuss
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,688
Highlights from Washington Post article on recent covid vaccine studies released by the CDC:

- not fully vaccinated people are 10 times more likely to be hospitalized and 11 times more likely to die than fully vaccinated people
- the Moderna vaccine is more effective against the delta variant than the Pfizer/BioNTech and J&J vaccines
- serious symptoms from breakthrough infections are concentrated among people 75 and older

https://www.washingtonpost.com/healt...ccine-studies/
(this article is listed as not being behind the WP's paywall)
__________________
"Facts are stupid things."
Ronald Reagan


TellyKNeasuss is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2021, 02:30 AM   #2082
Klimax
NWO Cyborg 5960x (subversion VPUNPCKHQDQ)
 
Klimax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Starship Wanderer - DS9
Posts: 13,561
Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
Highlights from Washington Post article on recent covid vaccine studies released by the CDC:

- not fully vaccinated people are 10 times more likely to be hospitalized and 11 times more likely to die than fully vaccinated people
- the Moderna vaccine is more effective against the delta variant than the Pfizer/BioNTech and J&J vaccines
- serious symptoms from breakthrough infections are concentrated among people 75 and older

https://www.washingtonpost.com/healt...ccine-studies/
(this article is listed as not being behind the WP's paywall)
Ars Technica article on studies:
Unvaccinated are 5X more likely to catch delta, 11X more likely to die
__________________
ModBorg

Engine: Ibalgin 400
Klimax is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2021, 02:11 AM   #2083
Planigale
Philosopher
 
Planigale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: 49 North
Posts: 5,102
Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
This is equivalent to about a 25 yr age difference. That is to say an unvaccinated thirty year old has the same risk of death as a vaccinated fifty-five year old. It is clear that vaccination has relatively little impact on infection, but is reducing severity of illness. Vaccinated elderly people coming into hospital with covid-19 are unwell but dangerously unwell. Vaccination in studies reduces transmissibility
but it clearly isn't having a great impact in Scotland! (90% double vaccinated)

https://public.tableau.com/app/profi...43010/Overview
Planigale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2021, 03:10 AM   #2084
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 14,970
U.S. could authorize Pfizer COVID-19 shot for kids age 5-11 in October (Reuters, Sep 11, 2021)

In post 2076, I already mentioned that Cuba will start vaccinating even younger children next week.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 11:05 AM   #2085
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 14,970
Fear of needles and vaccine hesitancy

Quote:
What is trypanophobia?
Fittingly, the name combines the Greek term trypano — meaning puncturing or piercing — with phobia, meaning fear. This remarkably common condition is marked by irrational, extreme fear or aversion to blood or needles. It’s estimated that fear of needles affects up to 25% of adults, and may lead 16% of people in the US to skip vaccinations. Many people who strongly fear needle sticks may avoid doctors and medical care, so it’s likely that the magnitude of this problem is underestimated.
Terrified of needles? That can affect your health (Health Harvard, April 27, 2021)

Story about a Dane overcoming his fear of needles in order to get the Moderna shot:
Vaccineret i amme-rummet i Bilka: Det har været en kamp at komme her (TV2.dk, Sep 11, 2021)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 01:34 PM   #2086
Planigale
Philosopher
 
Planigale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: 49 North
Posts: 5,102
<RANT> I am just so ******* pissed off with looking after people who wouldn't be vaccinated and I can't tell them they are getting what they deserve because it isn't professional. We are all just stretched so thin now. <END RANT>
Planigale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 02:51 PM   #2087
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 90,524
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
<RANT> I am just so ******* pissed off with looking after people who wouldn't be vaccinated and I can't tell them they are getting what they deserve because it isn't professional. We are all just stretched so thin now. <END RANT>


At least they are getting their just reward, they are very sick.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 07:31 PM   #2088
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 73,421
Obligatory:



Honestly feel a little sheepish about the amount of time and effort I spent confirming "yes, the vaccine helps protect people from getting sick and dying" but I guess everyone needs a hobby.
__________________
We are all #KenBehrens
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 11:47 PM   #2089
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 14,970
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
<RANT> I am just so ******* pissed off with looking after people who wouldn't be vaccinated and I can't tell them they are getting what they deserve because it isn't professional. We are all just stretched so thin now. <END RANT>

I mentioned fear of needles above. I think it should be considered as a considerable obstacle at this point.

I posted a link to the following Twitter thread in another ISF thread, but in the context of fear of needles, I think that you may hear all of these excuses for not getting vaccinated from people who suffer from this phobia:

Quote:
The most common answers people gave.
“It was inconvenient”
“I’ve been on the fence”
“I’m young/not at risk/have had COVID”

One of the most common was:
“Other people were getting vaccinated so I didn’t feel like I needed to” 5/
Andy Slavitt on Twitter (Sep 14, 2021)

The thread is about a private company where the percentage of vaccinated went up from 70% to 95% after the vaccinations were made mandatory.
The remaining 5% are probably QAnon believers ...
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2021, 07:31 AM   #2090
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 26,199
Booster shots seem to be working in Israel. 11-fold increase in protection 12 days after 3rd dose.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 04:36 AM   #2091
Planigale
Philosopher
 
Planigale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: 49 North
Posts: 5,102
Although there was some criticism of the UK decision to extend the interval between doses for the Pfizer vaccine (UK 8 -12 weeks, RoW 3 weeks) it does appear this does result in greater vaccine effectiveness, currently I cannot find information on duration of protection but one would expect with three time higher antibody levels duration of protection would be longer. Boosting may not be so necessary in the UK as elsewhere. This was already known for the AZ vaccine.

https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/news/la...-response.aspx
Planigale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 06:22 AM   #2092
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 100,033
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
<RANT> I am just so ******* pissed off with looking after people who wouldn't be vaccinated and I can't tell them they are getting what they deserve because it isn't professional. We are all just stretched so thin now. <END RANT>
I have a few friends working in the NHS and our circle lets them vent their anger when we can, it seems to help them. Hopefully, you've got a good support network to help you cope.

I don't know how you all don't say something - I wouldn't be able to not say something - probably partly why I was never tempted into any caring profession!
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 06:25 AM   #2093
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 100,033
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Story about a Dane overcoming his fear of needles in order to get the Moderna shot:
Vaccineret i amme-rummet i Bilka: Det har været en kamp at komme her (TV2.dk, Sep 11, 2021)
For this I 100% blame the parents. No one "likes*" to have injections or needles stuck in them but it should have a been a matter of "yeah not nice, but you have to put up with it so stop being a baby" when they were kids.

*Yeah Rule 34 exception
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 06:29 AM   #2094
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 23,884
So being as I'm a social science guy I'm not sure I understand the logic of the FDA. As I understand it, the booster increases your protection from any infection. I get that the two Moderna shots I got give me good protection from infection and close to complete protection from hospitalization and death (I don't have comorbidities). The FDA logic is that there aren't enough break through infections that cause hospitalization to justify the booster in younger, healthy people.

Being as we're in a high supply, reduced demand situation with the vaccines, why not offer the third shot? We seem to be ramping up vaccine production globally so it won't take shots away from anyone. The MRA vaccines aren't practical in much of the world because of the cold supply chain requirements. If the boosters are safe, prevent any infection, not just those causing illness and hospitalization and we have them in quantity, why not authorize them?
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 09:28 AM   #2095
Planigale
Philosopher
 
Planigale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: 49 North
Posts: 5,102
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
So being as I'm a social science guy I'm not sure I understand the logic of the FDA. As I understand it, the booster increases your protection from any infection. I get that the two Moderna shots I got give me good protection from infection and close to complete protection from hospitalization and death (I don't have comorbidities). The FDA logic is that there aren't enough break through infections that cause hospitalization to justify the booster in younger, healthy people.

Being as we're in a high supply, reduced demand situation with the vaccines, why not offer the third shot? We seem to be ramping up vaccine production globally so it won't take shots away from anyone. The MRA vaccines aren't practical in much of the world because of the cold supply chain requirements. If the boosters are safe, prevent any infection, not just those causing illness and hospitalization and we have them in quantity, why not authorize them?
Locally you may be in a high supply, reduced demand situation, globally we are not. Whether it takes vaccine away from anyone depends on the ability to deliver that vaccine to where it is needed. Presently demand exceeds supply. Boosters are in general authorised, but whether giving a third dose to low risk people in the rich world is right when there are poor people who have not had their first dose is a political / moral question, not a medical one. Cold supply chain could have been addressed in the last year if there was the political will.

https://launchandscalefaster.org/cov...emanufacturing

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
Planigale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 09:38 AM   #2096
Planigale
Philosopher
 
Planigale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: 49 North
Posts: 5,102
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
For this I 100% blame the parents. No one "likes*" to have injections or needles stuck in them but it should have a been a matter of "yeah not nice, but you have to put up with it so stop being a baby" when they were kids.

*Yeah Rule 34 exception
We are not bad with needle phobia, One of our public health nurses spent over half an hour to persuade one of the local working girls to get vaccinated (it is surprising the number of drug addicts who are needle phobic), after a lot of bad language and at least one storm out of clinic we got her vaccinated, and she was apologetic and grateful once it was done. Some people do not have great impulse control, you just have to accept it.

The frustrating thing is signing up someone to have an experimental drug to treat their life threatening pneumonia when they say they won't have the vaccine because it has not been properly tested and there might be long term side effects. You just have to hold your tongue and not say "You'll be lucky to get long term side effects", and not point up she has literally just agreed to take an untested medicine.
Planigale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 09:56 AM   #2097
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 14,970
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
For this I 100% blame the parents.

He is the parent!
"- I am so scared of needles, the 30-year-old father says and looks very serious."

Quote:
No one "likes*" to have injections or needles stuck in them but it should have a been a matter of "yeah not nice, but you have to put up with it so stop being a baby" when they were kids.

*Yeah Rule 34 exception

There is no arguing with phobias. Some people are afraid of flying, some faint when they see blood, and some are scared of needles. We can agree that the fear is not rational, but it is necessary to address the problem.

The guy in the story brought his father-in-law for moral support: "To hold his hand. Literally."

When I was a toddler a loooong time ago, my family had the opposite problem. I wouldn't leave the doctor's office unless I'd had the jab! Somebody must have convinced me how good vaccines were to the extent where I felt I'd been cheated when we went to see the doctor and I didn't get the shot. The doctor had to prick me with an empty syringe to get rid of me.
So you are wrong. Even about the Rule 34 exception.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2021, 10:07 AM   #2098
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 14,970
Cuba vaccinates children as young as 2 in strategy to reopen schools, economy (CNN, Sep 19, 2021)
Toddlers receive vaccine at clinic in Cuba. (CNN short video)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:53 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.