IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 4th May 2021, 03:09 PM   #121
Stout
Illuminator
 
Stout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,733
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post

One such example was a Texas textbook that whitewashed African slaves as "workers" and implied they were economic migrants rather than chattel slaves.
That has nothing to do with CRT, it was an editing error that was finally noticed and responded to.

Quote:
The Atlantic Slave Trade between the 1500s and 1800s brought millions of workers from Africa to the southern United States to work on agricultural plantations.” The authors, on the page next to the map, wrote of “an influx of English and other European peoples, many of whom came as indentured servants to work for little or no pay,” but made no mention of how Africans came to the country.
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/06/u...s-workers.html
Stout is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th May 2021, 07:52 PM   #122
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,714
Came across this video about CRT in schools:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th May 2021, 05:45 AM   #123
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,039
For perspective, this is what white reactionaries are freaking out about.

Quote:
The Los Alamitos Unified School District (Los Al USD) Board of Education unanimously approved a new ethnic studies elective titled “Cultural Experiences in America” for junior and senior students at Los Alamitos High School on February 23.

While the curriculum is optional for students and not required for graduation, the board has faced backlash from opponents who believe that the curriculum may cause divisiveness and anti-white sentiment among younger generations.
https://www.newuniversity.org/2021/0...-los-alamitos/

A non-mandatory elective course for high school juniors and seniors.

Right wing extremists are mobbing school board meetings and edging towards violent conflict over the matter.

Quote:
But the loudest voice in the room was that of Arthur Schaper – organization director of of MassResistance, which battles gay rights movements.

Schaper urged the audience to confront school board members at their homes, businesses and even churches.

“Make their lives miserable,” the Torrance resident said to applause. “They are fair game.”
https://www.ocregister.com/2021/04/2...-school-board/
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 6th May 2021 at 05:54 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th May 2021, 07:49 AM   #124
ahhell
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,724
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The OC register article is pretty good. Other white reactionaries are saying things like:
Quote:
The Los Alamitos father said he worries that the social justice curriculum “could be a little extreme,” and that the district “hasn’t been transparent enough about what will be taught.”
Seems like a reasonable concern.

This schaper guy seems pretty awful, must be an LA thing, sounds like Maxine Waters.

Edit to add: Its funny, my internet search for various forms of "critical race theory in schools" turns up a bunch of questionable courses in expensive private schools but almost nothing directly related to public schools. Something amusing about that.

My current take, its worth keeping an eye on in your local schools, especially if you have kids. Parents should be doing that anyway. Doesn't seem like worth getting upset about yet. Also, most if not all of the articles are from clearly biased sources.

Last edited by ahhell; 6th May 2021 at 07:59 AM.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th May 2021, 07:51 AM   #125
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,039
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
The OC register article is pretty good. Other white reactionaries are saying things like:
Seems like a reasonable concern.

This schaper guy seems pretty awful, must be an LA thing, sounds like Maxine Waters.
The conversation is pretty heavily distorted because right wing freaks have made it the next battlefront in the endless culture war. I feel bad for anyone who is actually a local that wants to honestly discuss the issue, but out of town extremists are going to make any productive conversation impossible.

A lot of the opposition here is coming from people who don't live in the school district. Aggrieved white reactionaries in search of an enemy.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th May 2021, 11:16 AM   #126
CaptainHowdy
Graduate Poster
 
CaptainHowdy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,756
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The conversation is pretty heavily distorted because right wing freaks have made it the next battlefront in the endless culture war. I feel bad for anyone who is actually a local that wants to honestly discuss the issue, but out of town extremists are going to make any productive conversation impossible.

A lot of the opposition here is coming from people who don't live in the school district. Aggrieved white reactionaries in search of an enemy.
Outside agitators are definitely a problem. Maybe we should pass laws against people attending protests or rallies or demonstrations unless they live within X miles of the event?
CaptainHowdy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th May 2021, 11:20 AM   #127
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,039
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Outside agitators are definitely a problem. Maybe we should pass laws against people attending protests or rallies or demonstrations unless they live within X miles of the event?
It's not exactly a problem that they are showing up, it's more likely that they will resort to violence when the issue doesn't go their way.

I very much doubt the school board puts much stock in the opinions of a bunch of out of town right-wing freaks. Odds are go they will move forward with their curriculum, at which point these raving loons may feel it is necessary to take more direct action.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th May 2021, 11:23 AM   #128
ahhell
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,724
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It's not exactly a problem that they are showing up, it's more likely that they will resort to violence when the issue doesn't go their way.

I very much doubt the school board puts much stock in the opinions of a bunch of out of town right-wing freaks. Odds are go they will move forward with their curriculum, at which point these raving loons may feel it is necessary to take more direct action.
Also might be more than a little counter productive from their standpoint. The OC Register quoted a number of locals basically saying as much. Things like, Schaper was pretty awful and he didn't do himself any good.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th May 2021, 11:26 AM   #129
Cavemonster
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 6,701
Originally Posted by Stout View Post
That has nothing to do with CRT, it was an editing error that was finally noticed and responded to.



https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/06/u...s-workers.html
Your link does not describe the passage or its context as an editing error.
__________________
The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon.
-G.K. CHESTERTON
Cavemonster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th May 2021, 12:51 PM   #130
ahhell
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,724
Here's an interesting piece by John McWhorter on the Subject:
https://johnmcwhorter.substack.com/p...rogressive-5c6
It may be paywalled but you should get one reading for free.
Quote:
We must not be taken in by the fact that this is called “critical,” that it’s about race and that it’s titled a “theory.” It is a fragile, performative ideology, which goes beyond the passages above to explicitly reject linear reasoning, traditional legal theorizing, and even Enlightenment rationalism. We are to favor an idea that an oppressed race’s “story” constitutes truth, in an overarching sense, apart from mere matters of empirical or individual detail.
Quote:
The highlight of this session is a white Elect who waxes indignant when a white man has a black child on his knee at the meeting, claiming that such sights hurt “them” (i.e. us poor black people for whom seeing that is like watching our children dandled by David Duke). Never mind that it turned out that this man was good friends with the child’s mother and that their children were growing up together.
He uses "Elect" to label the anti-racist/woke types.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th May 2021, 12:55 PM   #131
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,714
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Here's an interesting piece by John McWhorter...
Wait, CRT has critics who aren't just white reactionaries?
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th May 2021, 01:15 PM   #132
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 90,508
Swarming school board meetings is the same thing evolution deniers did. They also ran for office on the boards.

From February through April, 1996, the small town of Sultan, WA, was the site of now-familiar rancorous school board meetings over the question of whether creationism should be taught with evolution.
Quote:
Meg [the science teacher] and her husband Mike gathered a committee of concerned citizens to protest the introduction of nonscience topics into the science class, and to support the teaching of evolution. At the April 10 school board meeting, 250 people (about 10% of the Sultan population!) filled the meeting room to overflowing, eager to argue the issue. According to the Towns, the crowd's opinions about creationism in the science curriculum were divided 50:50 — a terrific turnout for the pro-evolution side, which is ordinarily outnumbered in such meetings (see related stories about Ohio hearings, pp. 6, 18). Even so, the board seemed reluctant to adopt the curriculum without creation science added.
With a 50:50 split of opinions, evolution science won out.
Quote:
Thanks to Meg and Mike Town and their fellow citizens for upholding the integrity of science, and also to University of Washington scientists (and NCSE members) Gordon Orians and George Gilchrist for their testimony at the public hearing.
We can learn from this example. These people objecting have been pushing a completely false narrative about what Critical Race Theory is. IMO this is once again terrible messaging. They should have called it something like Broadening History Curriculum.

You know women are mostly left out of history curriculums as well. They throw a couple token females in and even then they distort the version.

Take Betsy Ross for example:
Quote:
What about Betsy Ross? Well, she was a real person, living in Philadelphia during that time period. She and her husband ran an upholstery business, but tragically he was killed in a munitions accident in 1776. She bravely toiled on, keeping the upholstery business going. We do know that she was an expert seamstress, often repairing uniforms for the Continental Army. There is even a record from the Navy Board of Pennsylvania, May 29, 1777, stating that Elizabeth Ross (Betsy) needed to be paid for sewing ships’ flags. (Pennsylvania had a Navy? Who knew?)

However, there is no historical evidence whatsoever that Washington or any member of Congress visited her and asked her to make a national flag. Historians today are almost certain that the whole story is fiction. In fact, there was no story about Betsy Ross and the flag until 1870 — almost 100 years after the fact! William Canby, Betsy’s grandson, started telling the story in 1870 that his grandmother made the first U.S. flag because of a personal request from George Washington. (When historians look at the diaries and other writings of Washington at this time, there is zero mention of such a story.)
So they might have addressed the whole genre of missing history except for that of white men. It would have been harder for the white supremacists to argue against.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 6th May 2021 at 01:22 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th May 2021, 06:05 PM   #133
Stout
Illuminator
 
Stout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,733
Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Your link does not describe the passage or its context as an editing error.
Oh really ? I thought it did, it must have been some other source then. I can't get in to check the NYT one as it's paywalled now. The point still stands though as the caption in question was actually titled The Atlantic Slave Trade so claims that this was a whitewash should be considered fake news.
Stout is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th May 2021, 06:08 PM   #134
Stout
Illuminator
 
Stout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,733
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It's not exactly a problem that they are showing up, it's more likely that they will resort to violence when the issue doesn't go their way.
After the BLM riots and the CHAZ/CHOP murders we're pretty much used to violence being used to make political points. Maybe we'll bet some good footage out of it.
Stout is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th May 2021, 11:14 PM   #135
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,726
And never m ind that the main groups rioting at BLM rallies were, in fact, police.

Let's put it this way - CRT is in reality a sociological framework that analyses division rather than causing it (it's also not the 1619 project, which is a project that studies US history))

Naive people said that Obama's election meant that racism was over. CRT folks immediately predicted a white supremacist backlash - which is what we have now, led by Donald Trump.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2021, 04:53 AM   #136
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,714
Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Oh really ? I thought it did, it must have been some other source then. I can't get in to check the NYT one as it's paywalled now. The point still stands though as the caption in question was actually titled The Atlantic Slave Trade so claims that this was a whitewash should be considered fake news.
Was it this textbook controversy from 2015? If so, the book got its facts wrong as well.

textbook-caption.jpg

Millions of slaves were brought to the Americas, but only around half a million were brought to the thirteen colonies.
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2021, 07:45 AM   #137
Stout
Illuminator
 
Stout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,733
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Was it this textbook controversy from 2015? If so, the book got its facts wrong as well.

Attachment 44637

Millions of slaves were brought to the Americas, but only around half a million were brought to the thirteen colonies.
That's the only one I could find. I was expecting something way worse like "Economic Migration From Africa to North America in the 16th-19th Century." but what I got was rather disappointing.

The use of the word workers could be easily explained somebody having English as a second language and not grabbing the subtle nuances of the language. As conspiracies go, this one was pretty weak.
Stout is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2021, 08:14 AM   #138
ahhell
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,724
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Was it this textbook controversy from 2015? If so, the book got its facts wrong as well.

Attachment 44637

Millions of slaves were brought to the Americas, but only around half a million were brought to the thirteen colonies.
No where close to half were brought to the 13 colonies. Unless there were millions more slaves captured after 1800.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlant...iangular_trade

The Portuguese really get off easy when we talk about slavery.
About 40% were sent to Brazil, about 3%* to North America.

*Further reading indicates it was closer to 10% for British North America. Obviously, mostly what is now the Southern US.

Last edited by ahhell; 7th May 2021 at 08:21 AM.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2021, 08:29 AM   #139
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,714
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
No where close to half were brought to the 13 colonies.
I'm going off these estimates plus around 70k or so individuals imported to the colonies from the Caribbean.
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

Last edited by d4m10n; 7th May 2021 at 08:38 AM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2021, 08:34 AM   #140
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,039
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...lained/618828/

Quote:
Who’s Afraid of Critical Race Theory?
How right-wing politicians and pundits became fixated on what has long been an academic theory
Quote:
The language of these bills is anodyne and fuzzy—compel, for instance, is never defined in the Idaho legislation—and that ambiguity appears to be deliberate. According to Ammon, “using taxpayer funds to promote ideas such as ‘one race is inherently superior to another race or sex’ … only exacerbates our differences.” But critics of these efforts warn that the bills would effectively prevent public schools and universities from holding discussions about racism; the New Hampshire measure in particular would ban companies that do business with government entities from conducting diversity, equity, and inclusion programs. “The vagueness of the language is really the point,” Leah Cohen, an organizer with Granite State Progress, a liberal nonprofit based in Concord, told me. “With this really broad brushstroke, we anticipate that that will be used more to censor conversations about race and equity.”


Most legal scholars say that these bills impinge on the right to free speech and will likely be dismissed in court. “Of the legislative language so far, none of the bills are fully constitutional,” Joe Cohn, the legislative and policy director of the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education, told me, “and if it isn’t fully constitutional, there’s a word for that: It means it’s unconstitutional.” This does not appear to concern the bills’ sponsors, though. The larger purpose, it seems, is to rally the Republican base—to push back against the recent reexaminations of the role that slavery and segregation have played in American history and the attempts to redress those historical offenses. The shorthand for the Republicans’ bogeyman is an idea that has until now mostly lived in academia: critical race theory.
It's the same old reactionary tactic. Gin up some obscure boogieman then smear everything as that boogieman.

Republicans shriek about critical race theory and then try to make it impossible to hold any discussion at all that focuses on the history of racism in this country. The language of these laws they are passing, and the outrage being whipped up by terrified white reactionaries at any mention of racism, makes it very clear what this tactic is really about.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 7th May 2021 at 08:39 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2021, 08:39 AM   #141
ahhell
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,724
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I'm going of these estimates plus around 70k or so individuals imported to the colonies from the Caribbean.
400k/10.5 million, is not 50%.

Quote:
Between 1525 and 1866, in the entire history of the slave trade to the New World, according to the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade Database, 12.5 million Africans were shipped to the New World. 10.7 million survived the dreaded Middle Passage, disembarking in North America, the Caribbean and South America.

And how many of these 10.7 million Africans were shipped directly to North America? Only about 388,000. That’s right: a tiny percentage.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2021, 08:54 AM   #142
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 15,724
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
400k/10.5 million, is not 50%.
I think d4m10n said half a million slaves, not half of the 10 million.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2021, 09:17 AM   #143
ahhell
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,724
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I think d4m10n said half a million slaves, not half of the 10 million.
Oh....disregard and carry on.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th May 2021, 12:56 PM   #144
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,714
If race is socially constructed (according to CRT) then who is tasked with constructing the white race? Delgado writes, "Whites do not see themselves as having a race, but being, simply, people." So far I've not found a CRT approved answer to this conundrum. Perhaps the white folks are tasked with socially constructing all the other races and leaving themselves to the negative space?

In related news, Oklahoma has passed a new bill into law which may have some bearing on this thread:
https://twitter.com/kfor/status/1390792297420398595

It is being described in mainstream news as restricting CRT, but the text of the bill doesn't mention any of the central concepts I've read in the Delgado and Stefancic book.
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

Last edited by d4m10n; 9th May 2021 at 01:08 PM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th May 2021, 01:11 PM   #145
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 21,128
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Perhaps the white folks are tasked with socially constructing all the other races and leaving themselves to the negative space?
Yes. That is the social construction.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th May 2021, 03:38 PM   #146
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,465
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I mean, a theory can be tested, right? Or at least spelled out/summarized plainly?
It's not that kind of theory. You could probably ask 10 academics and get 10 answers, some of which contradict each other. But it amazes me that it even has to be taught. "Though the civil rights movement ended formal segregation, racism did not disappear. For example, many white Americans did not want African-Americans moving into formerly all-white neighborhoods." Had to catch myself there! What they didn't want is black people living in their neighborhood. Look how easily I slipped into thinking in terms of entitlement: their neighborhood, as if the new black residents were violating the rights of white people by encroaching into their once-sacred spaces. That was literally about keeping black people in their place.

Is this an area where "teach the controversy" would make sense? Not in grade school and probably not in middle school, either. But it could be a terrific high school elective that might even look good to some colleges. I've been fortunate enough to work in a huge range of schools. Some were "segregated" by demographics, but the schools in poorer areas of the city proper were more mixed. I heard a black guy telling a slightly paler black guy that he should "turn in his Negro card" for some position he took. Man, I would have loved to facilitate that discussion but unfortunately I was supposed to be teaching them algebra.

Another time a kid said, "Miss, do you want to know what race I am?" Sure, said I. "I'm black and Korean." His name was Gabriel, I was thinking more along the lines of Latino, but it didn't matter. I was just touched that he wanted me to know him. There was also a white kid who made it a point of looking like a school shooter (trench coat, shades). I heard him telling his table that the Irish had suffered just as much as black people did. I mentally kind of rolled my eyes, but later I wondered whether if it was better to be "free" - but starving to death - than to be "owned," but adequately fed.

Teenagers would lap this stuff up. They're naturally critical thinkers, but typically we teach writing by having them produce essays about literature. IMO there are more interesting things to argue about, but literature is ... safe, maybe? While talking about race is a minefield. Is Kamala Harris "African American"? Discuss. Should we capitalize "black" but not "white" when speaking of race? Why or why not?

Last edited by Minoosh; 9th May 2021 at 03:44 PM. Reason: Added a bit
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th May 2021, 04:09 PM   #147
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,465
I shared a room with an English teacher, a good one, whose curriculum for a long unit was largely based on the civil rights movement. Which is all good, it's important stuff, but it goes back 50-60 years. Talking about current events is IMO more interesting, but also more controversial.

Man, critical race theory doesn't even sound new to me - didn't Malcolm X talk about this stuff?

ETA: My 8th-grade social studies teacher kept his own little lending library of paperbacks - Black Like Me, The Autobiography of Malcolm X, 1984, Brave New World (!). Thirty titles or so. They weren't formally part of the curriculum, which maybe kept the teacher out of trouble.

Last edited by Minoosh; 9th May 2021 at 04:17 PM.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th May 2021, 04:09 PM   #148
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 26,195
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I'm going off these estimates plus around 70k or so individuals imported to the colonies from the Caribbean.
That may be true but the US Census said there were almost 4 million slaves in 1860 (in the United States of course). The ones who were imported had children.
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th May 2021, 04:28 PM   #149
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,714
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
That may be true but the US Census said there were almost 4 million slaves in 1860 (in the United States of course). The ones who were imported had children.
True; doesn't help out McGraw-Hill, though.
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th May 2021, 05:19 PM   #150
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,726
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
If race is socially constructed (according to CRT) then who is tasked with constructing the white race? Delgado writes, "Whites do not see themselves as having a race, but being, simply, people." So far I've not found a CRT approved answer to this conundrum. Perhaps the white folks are tasked with socially constructing all the other races and leaving themselves to the negative space?
More or less - elite whites specifically, in the US. And considering how many white people are angered to merely be called "white", but are perfectly happy to refer to other races as such (write about "white fathers" causing "white on white crime" on twitter sometime and see how many people throw a fit).

It's similar to the anger many people feel at the simple word "cisgender", but who will, at best, talk about "trans people" - if not "trannies" or worse.

Quote:
In related news, Oklahoma has passed a new bill into law which may have some bearing on this thread:
https://twitter.com/kfor/status/1390792297420398595

It is being described in mainstream news as restricting CRT, but the text of the bill doesn't mention any of the central concepts I've read in the Delgado and Stefancic book.
That's because these are often aimed at the 1619 Project, or really at any discussion of race and racism in the US, rather than CRT (which the recent detractors typically can't even define, as seen in this clip.)

Hmmm...it may be best to think of CRT, and other such theories, as similar to theories of physics - thev don't, and can't describe reality in whole, but they're useful in specific contexts, much like Newton's laws don't *really* describe reality perfectly, but are still very helpful.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th May 2021, 05:28 PM   #151
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,465
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
True; doesn't help out McGraw-Hill, though.
You're right, they need to get their facts straight. Generally I have a low opinion of textbook publishers. Yet, textbooks are probably a necessary evil.

Oversimplification may be necessary, but does that make factual inaccuracy inevitable?

"Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong" makes for more interesting reading than the anodyne paragraphs of some book that manages to weigh 10 pounds without saying much.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th May 2021, 05:39 PM   #152
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 73,386
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
You're right, they need to get their facts straight. Generally I have a low opinion of textbook publishers. Yet, textbooks are probably a necessary evil.

Oversimplification may be necessary, but does that make factual inaccuracy inevitable?

"Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong" makes for more interesting reading than the anodyne paragraphs of some book that manages to weigh 10 pounds without saying much.
For a history textbook? Yes, factual inaccuracy is inevitable. There are lots of reasons for that, including the oft-cited cliche that history is almost always written by those in power, not those who are oppressed.
__________________
We are all #KenBehrens
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th May 2021, 05:58 PM   #153
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,714
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
That's because these are often aimed at the 1619 Project, or really at any discussion of race and racism in the US, rather than CRT...
Would it become difficult to teach 1619 without any of the following concepts?
  • one race or sex is inherently superior to another race or sex
  • an individual, by virtue of his or her race or sex, is inherently racist, sexist or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously
  • an individual should be discriminated against or receive adverse treatment solely or partly because of his or her race or sex
  • members of one race or sex cannot and should not attempt to treat others without respect to race or sex
  • an individual’s moral character is necessarily determined by his or her race or sex
  • an individual, by virtue of his or her race or sex, bears responsibility for actions committed in the past by other members of the same race or sex
  • any individual should feel discomfort, guilt, anguish or any other form of psychological distress on account of his or her race or sex
  • meritocracy or traits such as a hard work ethic are racist or sexist or were created by members of a particular race to oppress members of another race
I doubt it, but I only read the lead essay and a couple other bits.

Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
...it may be best to think of CRT, and other such theories, as similar to theories of physics - thev don't, and can't describe reality in whole, but they're useful in specific contexts, much like Newton's laws don't *really* describe reality perfectly, but are still very helpful.
I've seen several physicists give superstring theorists grief b/c their mathematical constructs are pretty but not testable. With the probable exemption of the social construction hypothesis, CRT seems a bit stringy to me.
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

Last edited by d4m10n; 9th May 2021 at 06:02 PM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th May 2021, 09:15 AM   #154
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,726
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Would it become difficult to teach 1619 without any of the following concepts?
  • one race or sex is inherently superior to another race or sex
  • an individual, by virtue of his or her race or sex, is inherently racist, sexist or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously
  • an individual should be discriminated against or receive adverse treatment solely or partly because of his or her race or sex
  • members of one race or sex cannot and should not attempt to treat others without respect to race or sex
  • an individual’s moral character is necessarily determined by his or her race or sex
  • an individual, by virtue of his or her race or sex, bears responsibility for actions committed in the past by other members of the same race or sex
  • any individual should feel discomfort, guilt, anguish or any other form of psychological distress on account of his or her race or sex
  • meritocracy or traits such as a hard work ethic are racist or sexist or were created by members of a particular race to oppress members of another race
I doubt it, but I only read the lead essay and a couple other bits.
I have no clue where you got most of that from, but no, history lessons don't require any such thing.

Quote:
I've seen several physicists give superstring theorists grief b/c their mathematical constructs are pretty but not testable. With the probable exemption of the social construction hypothesis, CRT seems a bit stringy to me.
Nah, quite a bit of it is not only testable, but tested and correct.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th May 2021, 09:24 AM   #155
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,714
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I have no clue where you got most of that from, but no, history lessons don't require any such thing.
See the "text of the bill" link at #150.

Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
...quite a bit of [CRT] is not only testable, but tested and correct.
Such as?

ETA:On another note, just came across this tweet from a guy I met at TAM:

https://twitter.com/peterboghossian/...02139178115076
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

Last edited by d4m10n; 10th May 2021 at 10:33 AM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2021, 04:05 AM   #156
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,726
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
See the "text of the bill" link at #150.
Ah.

I'm honestly uninterested in GOP fever dreams, I'd rather discuss...um...reality.

Quote:
Such as?
Such as my previous example of the racist backlash to Obama's election - granted, this one seems easy, but given how many people were talking about "Post-racial America", it's worth noting.

Quote:
Boghossian literally committed academic fraud. He's...not the sort of person I'd quote approvingly. But a glance at the article shows a few severe problem, among the first few:

Neither Kendri (a history populariser first and foremost, as I recall - important work for sure, but hardly primary research) nor DiAngelo (a corporate trainer - "diversity training" is itself heavily contested among CRT adherents, but is not central in any case) are at all involved in CRT. If there are the first two people cited in an article that claims to discuss, then the article is garbage.

Next, this quote:

Quote:
Racism "has contributed to all contemporary manifestations of group advantage and disadvantage along racial lines, including differences in income, imprisonment, health, housing, education, political representation, and military service," write several critical race theory scholars, including Kimberle Crenshaw and Mari Matsuda in Words that Wound. "Our history calls for this presumption."
Yes, contributed. The author takes this to mean "are defined by", which is of course absurd. YEs, they have contributed in a positive manner as well, as CRT adherents frequently state outright.

Last edited by Mumbles; 11th May 2021 at 04:10 AM.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2021, 05:02 AM   #157
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,714
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Such as my previous example of the racist backlash to Obama's election - granted, this one seems easy, but given how many people were talking about "Post-racial America", it's worth noting.
Who made this prediction while (at least implicitly) rooting the prediction in CRT? I mean, it seemed obvious enough given the usual pattern of how presidential candidates position themselves in sharp contrast to the previous incumbent. If Obama seems to be promising that "There is not a black America and a white America and Latino America and Asian America — there's the United States of America" then it should be unsurprising that the next guy doubles down on the idea that these are different interest groups with distinct interests. Come to think of it, that is a core idea in CRT.

Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I'm honestly uninterested in GOP fever dreams, I'd rather discuss...um...reality.
Some of us have to actually live, in reality, with the laws they've passed. Supposedly this one is indented to curb CRT, but it seems more relevant to training materials like Tema Okun's White Supremacy Culture.
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

Last edited by d4m10n; 11th May 2021 at 05:05 AM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2021, 04:33 PM   #158
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,726
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Who made this prediction while (at least implicitly) rooting the prediction in CRT? I mean, it seemed obvious enough given the usual pattern of how presidential candidates position themselves in sharp contrast to the previous incumbent. If Obama seems to be promising that "There is not a black America and a white America and Latino America and Asian America — there's the United States of America" then it should be unsurprising that the next guy doubles down on the idea that these are different interest groups with distinct interests. Come to think of it, that is a core idea in CRT.
Again, seems obvious enough as far as the prediction, yet a large number of people got it entirely wrong.

As far as the last sentence, CRT outright denies the concept of race as anything innate to the individual - although it does of course exist socially.

Quote:
Some of us have to actually live, in reality, with the laws they've passed. Supposedly this one is indented to curb CRT, but it seems more relevant to training materials like Tema Okun's White Supremacy Culture.
If you want to discuss the laws currently being pushed, then there's no point pretending that they're good faith efforts to protect anyone. May as well just get right to the white supremacist interests on the modern day GOP and start there.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th May 2021, 04:59 PM   #159
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,714
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Again, seems obvious enough as far as the prediction, yet a large number of people got it entirely wrong.
Which theorists linked w/ CRT got it right, back in the day? Before, say, 2016.

Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
If you want to discuss the laws currently being pushed, then there's no point pretending that they're good faith efforts to protect anyone.
I believe conservatives really are afraid of the things they claim to be afraid of in public, based on decades of lived experience.
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

Last edited by d4m10n; 11th May 2021 at 05:15 PM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2021, 04:22 AM   #160
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,039
The final public comment period for the Los Alamitos school district had to be held virtually over fears of right wing violence. Violent white nationalist groups like the Proud Boys were planning to be at the event and the risk of violence seemed high.

These militia groups showed up to the parking lot anyway. Pictures from the event show the crowd is clearly has a more broad interest than just school curricula, with the event becoming just another weird MAGA/white nationalist rally and culture war flashpoint.

The digital public comment period went on anyway and the school board voted 5-0 to approve the proposal. 85% of comments were in favor. Another L for reactionary freaks.

https://twitter.com/chadloder/status...93020939538435
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 12th May 2021 at 04:38 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:46 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.