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Old 14th August 2021, 11:23 AM   #281
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Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
Hi. I have a few questions for you. Whose work can this reference to science and especially the new science that has been discovered in the last century be?
I'm saying that just because it's possible to interpret this particular verse as a reference to current scientific knowledge, that does not mean that was the author's intended meaning. It's far more likely, given the context of the rest of the book, that the intended meaning was something else entirely, and the author had no knowledge whatsoever of future scientific discoveries.
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Old 14th August 2021, 11:27 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post

Here is verse 51.47 according to M.M. Pichthall

We have built the heaven with might, and We it is who made the vast extent thereof.

Here is Darwoods translation of 51.47

We built the heaven with our might, giving it a vast expanse and stretched the earth beneath it.

Here is the Yusuf Ali translation 51.47

With power and skill did we construct the firmament: for it is we who expand the vastness of space. 51.48 And we have spread out the earth: How excellently we do spread out!

Only the Yusuf Ali translation could be construed as meaning space is expanding. And that is not clear. And the next verse says the earth is flat.
Heydarian, do you read Arabic, and if so are you translating the Quran yourself, or are you using an English translation for your quotes?
If so Which translation are you using?

As far as I can see surah 51.47 is saying space is a vast expanse, Not that space is expanding.

We need an Arabic speaking scholar here to clarify the issue. Or access to more translations. I only have access to six translations at the moment.

Here is the translation of the knoble Quran, 51.47

47. With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.

Here is another translation by. Sherali

47And WE have built the heavens with Our own hands, and, verily, WE have vast powers.

another by Shakir

47 And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy

Last edited by Scorpion; 14th August 2021 at 12:11 PM.
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Old 15th August 2021, 12:53 AM   #283
heydarian saeed
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Edited by Agatha:  Edited to match quoted post


A testament to what about it? It is a religion whose holy book people attempt to retrofit to science in order to claim it must be the divine word of god. It isn't alone in this, and just because this is a rather poor attempt to paper over the cracks doesn't mean that this thread is unique either.

However, Islam is also a religion whose holy book very explicitly states that apostates should be killed. The Bible also shares this trait, but the quran is unique in how often it repeats this commandment. Not just the proclamations about how we will burn in hell (although that crops up constantly too) but to kill us. The Quran directly instructs Muslims to kill all non believers wherever they find them. More than once. That's a pretty disgusting book.



I have no problem with Muslims. I in fact find it impressive that there are so many good people who profess to believe in the violent, supremacist book of horrors that is the Quran, just like I find it impressive there are so many good people who profess to believe in the violent, supremacist book of horrors that is the Bible.

I do have a problem with any supremacist ideology. Any ideology that states that those outside of it should be killed and deserve to be killed is a horrifying one. I don't care if it is a religious ideology like Islam and Christianity or a political one like Fascism.
Hello. In the Qur'an and the religion of Islam, extravagance and extravagance are disliked and rejected. This is not the cause of the war in Islam. Rather, we have a defensive jihad in Islam. If the enemy of anyone (even the neighboring neighbor of the country, who is also a Muslim) intends to invade our land and attack, it is obligatory to defend and jihad against him. Isn't this the law and procedure in every country? If your land is invaded, will you not defend or attack?
In the Qur'an, the principle is based on peace and biological peace with all countries and nations. I will give you just one example: Surah Al-Mumtahanah. See verses 7 to 9, which say: "Allah will establish friendship between you and those with whom you have an enemy, and Allah is Able to do, and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." Religion has not fought you and expelled you from your religion, and does not forbid you from doing good to them and doing justice to them, for God loves the judges. Religion has fought you, driven you out of your homes, and supported you in driving you out, and whoever befriends them, they are the wrongdoers.
In the Qur'an, it says the cause of good and evil. And it tells the end of the work of the two groups. pay attention. He says that the reason for disbelief is covering the truth and not believing in the truth and denying it. The end of what they have provided is torment. God does not punish anyone for no reason. Torment and fire come from our own actions. On the contrary, it is good. The good ones accept the truth and act on it, so they are rewarded and found comfort in heaven.
Nowhere does the Qur'an insult or disrespect anyone. Unfortunately, this is our misconception of the Qur'an. If you have an example to the contrary, tell me the address so that I can check and answer.
Apart from this correct Qur'anic practice, if you see any violation, it is not from the Qur'an. It is the political work of governments. I do not want to talk about government policy. Because I believe that politics is always accompanied by lies. Not quite right. Of course, politicians justify that it should be expedient and act accordingly. These conversations are very common. And I do not belong to him.
Dear friend of the association, please tell me only about the article if you have a question or article so that I can review and answer. Because these conversations are long and our main goal is a long time behind. And it takes. Thank you very much.

Last edited by Agatha; 15th August 2021 at 06:14 AM.
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Old 15th August 2021, 01:06 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
Hello. In the Qur'an and the religion of Islam, extravagance and extravagance are disliked and rejected. This is not the cause of the war in Islam. Rather, we have a defensive jihad in Islam. If the enemy of anyone (even the neighboring neighbor of the country, who is also a Muslim) intends to invade our land and attack, it is obligatory to defend and jihad against him. Isn't this the law and procedure in every country? If your land is invaded, will you not defend or attack?
In the Qur'an, the principle is based on peace and biological peace with all countries and nations. I will give you just one example: Surah Al-Mumtahanah. See verses 7 to 9, which say: "Allah will establish friendship between you and those with whom you have an enemy, and Allah is Able to do, and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." Religion has not fought you and expelled you from your religion, and does not forbid you from doing good to them and doing justice to them, for God loves the judges. Religion has fought you, driven you out of your homes, and supported you in driving you out, and whoever befriends them, they are the wrongdoers.
In the Qur'an, it says the cause of good and evil. And it tells the end of the work of the two groups. pay attention. He says that the reason for disbelief is covering the truth and not believing in the truth and denying it. The end of what they have provided is torment. God does not punish anyone for no reason. Torment and fire come from our own actions. On the contrary, it is good. The good ones accept the truth and act on it, so they are rewarded and found comfort in heaven.
Nowhere does the Qur'an insult or disrespect anyone. Unfortunately, this is our misconception of the Qur'an. If you have an example to the contrary, tell me the address so that I can check and answer.
Apart from this correct Qur'anic practice, if you see any violation, it is not from the Qur'an. It is the political work of governments. I do not want to talk about government policy. Because I believe that politics is always accompanied by lies. Not quite right. Of course, politicians justify that it should be expedient and act accordingly. These conversations are very common. And I do not belong to him.
Dear friend of the association, please tell me only about the article if you have a question or article so that I can review and answer. Because these conversations are long and our main goal is a long time behind. And it takes. Thank you very much.
The Quran contains an entire surah number 8 entitled 'spoils of war'
Muhammad opens the surah by saying all spoils of war belong to him. But later in the surah at 8.41 he says only one fifth of the spoils belong to him.
You can see his mind working as he realized nobody would fight for him if he took all the spoils of war so he decided to settle for one fifth.

Also the Quran says fighting is prescribed for Muslims at 2.216 and it tells them the reward for those that fight against Muhammad should be they are killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides 5.33

There was nothing holy about Muhammad, he was a lying bandit who claimed he got a message from God to scare people into fighting his battles. He was a savage, not a messenger of God.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy

Last edited by Scorpion; 15th August 2021 at 01:15 AM.
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Old 15th August 2021, 01:23 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Heydarian, do you read Arabic, and if so are you translating the Quran yourself, or are you using an English translation for your quotes?
If so Which translation are you using?

As far as I can see surah 51.47 is saying space is a vast expanse, Not that space is expanding.

We need an Arabic speaking scholar here to clarify the issue. Or access to more translations. I only have access to six translations at the moment.

Here is the translation of the knoble Quran, 51.47

47. With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.

Here is another translation by. Sherali

47And WE have built the heavens with Our own hands, and, verily, WE have vast powers.

another by Shakir

47 And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.
Hi. Thank you dear friend for quoting several different meanings of this verse. All these meanings acknowledge the last point of the verse and confirm that we expand the heavens. In the word Lamosoun, the letter L refers to the sky and gives breadth to the sky. The word and before that is turning to the same sky. And these two letters in Arabic are to explain and confirm the word breadth. The word expanse has a clear meaning. So we created the sky with our power and we will always expand it. I recommend that you enlist the help of someone who is fluent in Arabic to explain the meaning of this verse to you in full.
And the words farshana and mahdon do not mean smooth. pay attention; That is, we have expanded and how well we are expanding the earth. This does not mean that the earth is flat and does not contradict its sphericity. In this verse, he does not mention the shape of the earth at all. He only says that we have spread the earth because it is ready for my life and yours - for my and your residence and urban development - for my and your agriculture and ... and how well we are spreading the earth for you human beings ... God is right and He loves me and you and all human beings very much. But we do not understand.
Thanks
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Old 15th August 2021, 01:39 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
.. God is right and He loves me and you and all human beings very much. But we do not understand.
Thanks
You must be joking. The Quran clearly says Gods curse is on unbelievers in Muhammad.

Surah 2.161 Lo! those who disbelieve. and die while they are disbelievers: on them is the curse of Allah and of the angels and of men combined.

Then there are the lovely verses that say Allah will burn disbelievers for all eternity. He will drag them through boiling liquid in chains and into hellfire, where they will have their skins burnt off and renewed and burnt off again for all eternity.

See Surah's 4.56 and 22.19 to 22.22 and 40.72


I am with Robert Ingersoll in the belief it would be better that God was destroyed than that even one person should burn for eternity.

Quote:
"I cannot believe that there is any being in this universe who has created a human soul for eternal pain. I would rather that every god would destroy himself; I would rather that we all should go to eternal chaos, to black and starless night, than that just one soul should suffer eternal agony".
Robert G. Ingersoll (1833-99):
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy

Last edited by Scorpion; 15th August 2021 at 01:41 AM.
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Old 15th August 2021, 02:24 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I'm saying that just because it's possible to interpret this particular verse as a reference to current scientific knowledge, that does not mean that was the author's intended meaning. It's far more likely, given the context of the rest of the book, that the intended meaning was something else entirely, and the author had no knowledge whatsoever of future scientific discoveries.
Good friend dear community; The same argument can be made by the author of the book. Isn't that so? that's mean ; You have your goal and it is true, but I will take a different view of what you are saying. I also advised other friends that; In the meaning of the verses of the Qur'an, which I say, it is better for you to seek help from a person who is completely fluent in Arabic and the Qur'an to fully explain to you what this verse of the Qur'an means. I inform you that; I use the text of the Qur'an by Uthman Taha and the meanings of Master Ghomshei - Makarem Shirazi - Fooladvand and Tabatabai. Thank you
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Old 15th August 2021, 02:56 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
Good friend dear community; The same argument can be made by the author of the book. Isn't that so?
The author of the book is long dead so no, he can't make that argument, or any other. We can't ask him what his meaning is. That's why we have to make informed guesses, taking into account the rest of the book and what we know about it.

Quote:
You have your goal and it is true, but I will take a different view of what you are saying. I also advised other friends that; In the meaning of the verses of the Qur'an, which I say, it is better for you to seek help from a person who is completely fluent in Arabic and the Qur'an to fully explain to you what this verse of the Qur'an means.
That depends on whether the fluent person in question is genuinely attempting to determine the author's intended meaning, or is biased in favour of a particular interpretation and is cherry picking verses and interpreting them accordingly. For example, if someone is attempting to show that the author possessed scientific knowledge not available when the book was written they will look for, and interpret, verses with that in mind, and ignore contradictory verses and interpretations. The latter is clearly what you and your sources are doing, which is why your "research" is worthless.
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Old 15th August 2021, 03:18 AM   #289
heydarian saeed
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
You must be joking. The Quran clearly says Gods curse is on unbelievers in Muhammad.

Surah 2.161 Lo! those who disbelieve. and die while they are disbelievers: on them is the curse of Allah and of the angels and of men combined.

Then there are the lovely verses that say Allah will burn disbelievers for all eternity. He will drag them through boiling liquid in chains and into hellfire, where they will have their skins burnt off and renewed and burnt off again for all eternity.

See Surah's 4.56 and 22.19 to 22.22 and 40.72


I am with Robert Ingersoll in the belief it would be better that God was destroyed than that even one person should burn for eternity.

Quote:
"I cannot believe that there is any being in this universe who has created a human soul for eternal pain. I would rather that every god would destroy himself; I would rather that we all should go to eternal chaos, to black and starless night, than that just one soul should suffer eternal agony".
Robert G. Ingersoll (1833-99):
No, I'm not kidding. Continuing the stubbornness of the disbelievers on a particular subject and their insistence on enmity with God and the Qur'an, it is natural that God curses them as well. What should I expect? But I'm arguing with you on a subject. If you insist on the wrong idea, I will never reject you, and I will address you as a friend. Thank you dear friend
You only see the negative dimension of the issue, dear friend. Why don't we do something to go to heaven? A paradise that is good and full of blessings and comfort. Are we stubborn? My dear God wants to say: a bad end is equal to a bad one, that's all. It tells these stories and examples for you and me to set foot on the right path. And do good and see good. Well is this good or not? Why do you insist on being bad?Be good, see well. Be bad, look bad.
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Old 15th August 2021, 03:30 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
No, I'm not kidding. Continuing the stubbornness of the disbelievers on a particular subject and their insistence on enmity with God and the Qur'an, it is natural that God curses them as well. What should I expect? But I'm arguing with you on a subject. If you insist on the wrong idea, I will never reject you, and I will address you as a friend. Thank you dear friend
You only see the negative dimension of the issue, dear friend. Why don't we do something to go to heaven? A paradise that is good and full of blessings and comfort. Are we stubborn? My dear God wants to say: a bad end is equal to a bad one, that's all. It tells these stories and examples for you and me to set foot on the right path. And do good and see good. Well is this good or not? Why do you insist on being bad?Be good, see well. Be bad, look bad.
To me the Quran is an utterly evil book of lies about God. I happen to believe in God and a spirit world, but as far as I am concerned the Allah described in the Quran is a sadistic monster.

I have quoted the horrible verses about eternal hellfire, and they do not seem to bother you. But I find them appalling, and can hardly understand how anyone would worship such a monster. There is actually a verse saying Allah only created jinn and humankind so that they would worship him. 51.56 That is a pathetic reason to create people.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 15th August 2021, 03:31 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
No, I'm not kidding. Continuing the stubbornness of the disbelievers on a particular subject and their insistence on enmity with God and the Qur'an, it is natural that God curses them as well. What should I expect? But I'm arguing with you on a subject. If you insist on the wrong idea, I will never reject you, and I will address you as a friend. Thank you dear friend
You only see the negative dimension of the issue, dear friend. Why don't we do something to go to heaven? A paradise that is good and full of blessings and comfort. Are we stubborn? My dear God wants to say: a bad end is equal to a bad one, that's all. It tells these stories and examples for you and me to set foot on the right path. And do good and see good. Well is this good or not? Why do you insist on being bad?Be good, see well. Be bad, look bad.
You are assuming that what the Qur'an says is true. But there is no good reason to believe that, and plenty of good reasons not to. If it's not true, and you still obey its teachings (to kill unbelievers, say) then its you that is bad and us disbelievers, who do not follow your false religion and hence do not murder people who rightly disagree with us, who are good.
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Old 15th August 2021, 03:31 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
The author of the book is long dead so no, he can't make that argument, or any other. We can't ask him what his meaning is. That's why we have to make informed guesses, taking into account the rest of the book and what we know about it.


That depends on whether the fluent person in question is genuinely attempting to determine the author's intended meaning, or is biased in favour of a particular interpretation and is cherry picking verses and interpreting them accordingly. For example, if someone is attempting to show that the author possessed scientific knowledge not available when the book was written they will look for, and interpret, verses with that in mind, and ignore contradictory verses and interpretations. The latter is clearly what you and your sources are doing, which is why your "research" is worthless.
good job. You say a good impression. And that's exactly what you say. "I first see the clear words of the Qur'an and its apparent and clear meaning. And whoever sees the clear word of the Qur'an and sees its clear and simple meaning is certainly not mistaken. You tell me the meaning: what is the sky and what makes it powerful? And then what do we develop and expand the sky? Dear friend, are these seven words of verse 47 of Surah Dhariyat clear? Is the meaning of each word also clear?
Good dear friend; The same clear and precise meaning says that we created the sky with power and we always expand. I did not add anything or a word about myself. This verse. This verse. This verse .... how complicated do you and your friends make it ?? !!!! For what purpose? !!!
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Old 15th August 2021, 03:31 AM   #293
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If a book fails to persuade people that it's story is true then it is not logical to assume that any fault lies with the people who are not persuaded.
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Old 15th August 2021, 03:36 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
This verse .... how complicated do you and your friends make it ?? !!!! For what purpose? !!!
You're the one who is making it complicated by trying to twist its meaning to line up with a recent scientific discovery. It's clearest and most obvious meaning has already been pointed out to you.
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Old 15th August 2021, 03:36 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
good job. You say a good impression. And that's exactly what you say. "I first see the clear words of the Qur'an and its apparent and clear meaning. And whoever sees the clear word of the Qur'an and sees its clear and simple meaning is certainly not mistaken. You tell me the meaning: what is the sky and what makes it powerful? And then what do we develop and expand the sky? Dear friend, are these seven words of verse 47 of Surah Dhariyat clear? Is the meaning of each word also clear?
Good dear friend; The same clear and precise meaning says that we created the sky with power and we always expand. I did not add anything or a word about myself. This verse. This verse. This verse .... how complicated do you and your friends make it ?? !!!! For what purpose? !!!

As far as I can see surah 51.47 is saying space is a vast expanse, Not that space is expanding.
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 15th August 2021, 03:39 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
Is the meaning of each word also clear?
Sadly, no.

In English the word "sky" can mean the earth's atmosphere, the weather above you, the entire visible universe or some imagined heaven. I don't know how many meanings it might have in the Quran. It is a simple word, but if you wish to argue that it is being used with one precise meaning then that is a claim which you are bringing yourself and is not in the text.
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Old 15th August 2021, 03:43 AM   #297
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..Continued method:
3. How the world ended;
There are different theories about the end of the world, but what they all have in common is that the world will end one day, so it is not possible for the universe to expand forever because according to the law of conservation of energy, matter and energy are always constant. The expansion of the universe will stop and begin to return and contract as it did.
The current view of scientists is that the shape of the universe is almost like a flat sheet with little curvature.
In response to the question of when the end of the world will occur, the Russian physicist Alexander Friedman in 1920 showed that the answer to this question depends on the mass of the universe.
"If the universe has enough matter, gravity (gravity) will eventually stop the universe from expanding, and objects will move toward each other, and eventually all of them," says Ray Willard in The Universe and the Way of the Galaxy. They gather at a single point. This event is called the "Great Depression." . "
It is strange that the Qur'an in the following verse refers to the end of the world and the shape of the universe, which is like a curved sheet.
In Surah Anbiya, verse 104 says: Translation; The Day when we will wrap the heavens like a scroll of writings and bring it back as We began the creation, this is a promise upon us, and we will surely fulfill it.
(For a better understanding; if we look closely, we find that the scroll sheets that were often used in the past is a flat sheet that is slightly curved due to folding.)
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Old 15th August 2021, 03:49 AM   #298
heydarian saeed
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Sadly, no.

In English the word "sky" can mean the earth's atmosphere, the weather above you, the entire visible universe or some imagined heaven. I don't know how many meanings it might have in the Quran. It is a simple word, but if you wish to argue that it is being used with one precise meaning then that is a claim which you are bringing yourself and is not in the text.
Yes, dear friend. It has different meanings, but one of them is my chosen meaning that I said. And this meaning refers to the science of the day. Dear friend, do you know why the Quran is eternal? And it always has meaning and meaning. The reason is that the words chosen in it by God Almighty have been in a way that has meaning at any time according to the science of time. And this in itself is a miracle of the Qur'an. thank you
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Old 15th August 2021, 03:53 AM   #299
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The Pickthall translation of that verse is:

Quran 21.104 The day when we shall roll up the heavens as a recorder rolls up a written scroll. As we began the first creation. We shall repeat it.

The Hindus had a view of a cyclic universe long before the Quran, in any case I believe the prevailing scientific theory is that the universe has not got enough matter in it to implode, so it will just continue expanding until all the stars go out, and there will be nothing but darkness.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy

Last edited by Scorpion; 15th August 2021 at 03:58 AM.
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Old 15th August 2021, 04:00 AM   #300
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... 4. Space black holes;
Space black holes are huge phenomena that scientists have been researching for more than half a century before finally acknowledging their existence. Scientists say that when stars become larger (they run out of nuclear fuel completely, and as a result the gravitational force in it overcomes the star and causes it to fall in and out), a black hole forms. Nothing can escape the gravitational field of such an area, not even a beam of light. And that's why black holes are not visible.Scientists consider black holes to have three basic properties: 1- They are invisible 2- They move 3- They attract other celestial bodies. It is strange that the Qur'an mentions the same attributes in the following verses.
In Surah Takwir, verses 14 and 15, he says: Translation; Translation: I swear by the hidden stars that are moving and attracting.
Al-Khans means that which is hidden and invisible, Al-Jawar means that which moves with great speed, and Al-Khans means that which attracts (and sweeps the sky). And this is what scientists admit about black holes. Kans is the plural of kans and kans in Arabic is something that sweeps. In fact, black holes, due to their extraordinary gravitational pull, attract many celestial bodies and seem to sweep the surrounding space.The Qur'an speaks of black holes when no one on earth had any idea of ​​them.
Elsewhere she says:Oaths to the Stars (75)
And this is a very great oath if you only knew! (76)
Regarding the times of astronomy which are mentioned in Surah Al-Waqi'ah:Sometimes it means a place to fall, and astronomy means a star. The probability given about the meaning of this word is the same as the space black holes that appear after the death of large stars. These stars have a high gravitational force after death, and the surrounding stars due to this attraction into this black The holes fall.
The Qur'an refers to this space event with the word "astronomical times".
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Old 15th August 2021, 04:08 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
Yes, dear friend. It has different meanings, but one of them is my chosen meaning that I said.
Exactly. This is why your argument fails.

If you accept that the text is a miracle of divine inspiration, then you might be more easily convinced that an interpretation of miraculous knowledge is reasonable.

If you accept that an interpretation of miraculous knowledge is reasonable then you might be persuaded that the text is a miracle of divine inspiration.

It is a circular argument which can only impress those who are already believers. Surely you must see this?
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Old 15th August 2021, 04:12 AM   #302
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...5. Pulses (pulsating stars);
Pulses are one of the most controversial discoveries of the twentieth century. Pulses refer to stars that sound like hammers. That's why scientists call them giant hammers. After much research, they have come to the conclusion that these stars emit very strong and penetrating waves that have the ability to penetrate everything; In general, they are "knocking" and "penetrating".
Pulses are one of the most astonishing astronomical phenomena for scientists.
The Qur'an has stated this truth in eloquent terms. Where he swore to this kind of stars and said:Translation: I swear by the sky and the (striking) star, and what do you know what the striking star is? (2) The same penetrating star! (3). (Surah Tariq, verses 1 to 3)
A study by Husselin Bell Bornell at the University of Cambridge in 1967 determined a regular radio signal. It was not previously known that celestial bodies had pulses like the heart. It becomes very busy and spins around.Then its magnetic field rotates and becomes extremely strong. For example, a trillion times stronger than the Earth's magnetic field. They discovered objects that spin around at very high speeds and convert strong radio waves into a cone. They broadcast themselves.It was later discovered that the source of these signals were neutron stars. These newly discovered neutron stars are also called Pulsar pulsar stars.Neutron stars are often invisible and can only be observed with radio waves (pulses). The waves coming from these stars look like someone is hitting somewhere! (Striking star).Yes, the word pulse from pulse means to move or strike or pulse regularly, which brings regular expansion and contraction in each pulse. This was mentioned about the stars long before the pulsating stars were discovered in the Qur'an. .Aren't these verses really a sign of knowledge and scientific encirclement of the narrator of the Qur'an? What is science? where does he come from? Who is the sender of the Quran book? And what is its purpose? Isn't his goal other than human progress and development?
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Old 15th August 2021, 04:14 AM   #303
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Pickthall translation

Surah 81.15 Oh, but I call witness to the planets. 81.16 The stars which rise and set.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 15th August 2021, 04:17 AM   #304
heydarian saeed
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The Pickthall translation of that verse is:

Quran 21.104 The day when we shall roll up the heavens as a recorder rolls up a written scroll. As we began the first creation. We shall repeat it.

The Hindus had a view of a cyclic universe long before the Quran, in any case I believe the prevailing scientific theory is that the universe has not got enough matter in it to implode, so it will just continue expanding until all the stars go out, and there will be nothing but darkness.
Well, this is also a theory! Thanks. Do we have to wait and see what happens? And how the world will end. Do you agree dear friend?
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Old 15th August 2021, 04:19 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Pickthall translation

Surah 81.15 Oh, but I call witness to the planets. 81.16 The stars which rise and set.
Oh. Thanks
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Old 15th August 2021, 04:21 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
..Continued method:
3. How the world ended;
There are different theories about the end of the world, but what they all have in common is that the world will end one day, so it is not possible for the universe to expand forever because according to the law of conservation of energy, matter and energy are always constant. The expansion of the universe will stop and begin to return and contract as it did.
The current view of scientists is that the shape of the universe is almost like a flat sheet with little curvature.
In response to the question of when the end of the world will occur, the Russian physicist Alexander Friedman in 1920 showed that the answer to this question depends on the mass of the universe.
"If the universe has enough matter, gravity (gravity) will eventually stop the universe from expanding, and objects will move toward each other, and eventually all of them," says Ray Willard in The Universe and the Way of the Galaxy. They gather at a single point. This event is called the "Great Depression." . "
It is strange that the Qur'an in the following verse refers to the end of the world and the shape of the universe, which is like a curved sheet.
In Surah Anbiya, verse 104 says: Translation; The Day when we will wrap the heavens like a scroll of writings and bring it back as We began the creation, this is a promise upon us, and we will surely fulfill it.
(For a better understanding; if we look closely, we find that the scroll sheets that were often used in the past is a flat sheet that is slightly curved due to folding.)
In the 1990s it was discovered that the expansion of the universe is not slowing down, as was expected, but speeding up. So your interpretation of this particular verse does not predict current scientific knowledge, it contradicts it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future...nding_universe
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Old 15th August 2021, 04:21 AM   #307
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Lets cut to another verse in the Quran about the stars. It clearly says the stars are missiles to throw at devils.

Quran sura 67:5
Pickthall- And verily We have beautified the world's heaven with lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils, and for them We have prepared the doom of flame.

Yusuf Ali- And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.

Hilali-Khan- And indeed We have adorned the nearest heaven with lamps, and We have made such lamps (as) missiles to drive away the Shayatin (devils), and have prepared for them the torment of the blazing Fire.

Shakir- And certainly We have adorned this lower heaven with lamps and We have made these missiles for the Shaitans, and We have prepared for them the chastisement of burning.

Sher Ali- And verily, WE have adorned the lowest heaven with lamps, and WE have made them the means of driving away satans, and WE have prepared for them the punishment of the blazing Fire.

Khalifa- We adorned the lowest universe with lamps, and guarded its borders with projectiles against the devils; we prepared for them a retribution in Hell.

Arberry- And We adorned the lower heaven with lamps, and made them things to stone Satans; and We have prepared for them the chastisement of the Blaze.

Palmer- And we have adorned the lower heaven with lamps; and set them to pelt the devils with; and we have prepared for them the torment of the blaze!

Rodwell- Moreover we have decked the lowest heaven with lights, and have placed them there to be hurled at the Satans, for whom we have prepared the torment of the flaming fire.

Sale- Moreover we have adorned the lowest heaven with lamps, and have appointed them to be darted at the devils, for whom we have prepared the torment of burning fire:
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 15th August 2021, 04:26 AM   #308
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Sura 21.33 And he it is who created the night and the day, and the Sun and the Moon. They float, each in an orbit.

sura 36.38 And the Sun runs on unto a resting place for him, That is the measuring of the mighty and wise.
sura 36.39 And for the Moon. We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shriveled leaf
Sura 36.40 It is not for the Sun to overtake the Moon,nor does the night outstrip the day. They float, each in an orbit.

The quran is clearly stating that the Sun has an orbit and the only realistic meaning of these verses is that Muhammed believed the Sun orbits the earth. Those that claim this shows incredible insight by Muhammed who realized the Sun had an orbit in the galaxy are talking rubbish. The quran shows clearly the limits of Muhammeds knowledge.
For one thing the Sun and Moon meet at every eclipse, for another there is often a visible Moon during the day, so day and night are not so separate as the quran suggests. The verse about the Moon shriveling shows no knowledge of the fact the light of the Sun is illuminating it from a different angle.
The Sun also does not run to a resting place, not unless you believe Greek mythology. Besides the quran goes on to say.

sura 25.61 Blessed be he who has placed in the heaven mansions of stars, and has placed therin a great lamp and a moon giving light.

sura 71.16 And has made the Moon a light therein, and made the Sun a lamp.

These verses show Muhammed calls the Moon a light, which makes clear he did not know it was reflecting the Suns light. He clearly regards the Sun and Moon as separate sources of light, one for the day and the other for night.

Sura 81.1 When the Sun is overthrown.
sura 81.2 And when the Stars fall.

The Stars will never fall as they are outside our gravity. In fact the Universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. But Muhammed thinks the Stars are just lamps to throw at devils, not distant Suns. as proved below.

Sura 67.5 And verily we have beautified the worlds heaven with lamps. And we have made them missiles for devils.

The following from Hadith Bukhari confirms that Muhammad thought the sun went to a resting place.


Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421:
Narrated Abu Dhar:

The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing." (36.38)

39.5 He created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): He makes the Night overlap the Day, and the Day overlap the Night: He has subjected the sun and the moon (to His law): Each one follows a course for a time appointed. Is not He the Exalted in Power - He Who forgives again and again?
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 15th August 2021, 04:30 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
...5. Pulses (pulsating stars);
Pulses are one of the most controversial discoveries of the twentieth century. Pulses refer to stars that sound like hammers. That's why scientists call them giant hammers. After much research, they have come to the conclusion that these stars emit very strong and penetrating waves that have the ability to penetrate everything; In general, they are "knocking" and "penetrating".
Pulses are one of the most astonishing astronomical phenomena for scientists.
The Qur'an has stated this truth in eloquent terms. Where he swore to this kind of stars and said:Translation: I swear by the sky and the (striking) star, and what do you know what the striking star is? (2) The same penetrating star! (3). (Surah Tariq, verses 1 to 3)
A study by Husselin Bell Bornell at the University of Cambridge in 1967 determined a regular radio signal. It was not previously known that celestial bodies had pulses like the heart. It becomes very busy and spins around.Then its magnetic field rotates and becomes extremely strong. For example, a trillion times stronger than the Earth's magnetic field. They discovered objects that spin around at very high speeds and convert strong radio waves into a cone. They broadcast themselves.It was later discovered that the source of these signals were neutron stars. These newly discovered neutron stars are also called Pulsar pulsar stars.Neutron stars are often invisible and can only be observed with radio waves (pulses). The waves coming from these stars look like someone is hitting somewhere! (Striking star).Yes, the word pulse from pulse means to move or strike or pulse regularly, which brings regular expansion and contraction in each pulse. This was mentioned about the stars long before the pulsating stars were discovered in the Qur'an. .Aren't these verses really a sign of knowledge and scientific encirclement of the narrator of the Qur'an? What is science? where does he come from? Who is the sender of the Quran book? And what is its purpose? Isn't his goal other than human progress and development?
I've never seen or heard any astronomers refer to a pulsar as being like a giant hammer. The pulsing of a pulstar bears no similarity whatsoever to a striking hammer. It's due to the fact that the pulsar emits a beam of radiation in a particular direction, as the star rotates that beam moves around and is only observed when it points towards the earth, thereby giving the appearance of pulsing. A lighthouse, rather than a hammer, is the usual analogy. So this is another verse that cannot be interpreted to predict current scientific knowledge.

You're zero for three so far, heydarian. If this is all you've got, you've got nothing.
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Old 15th August 2021, 04:38 AM   #310
heydarian saeed
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...6. The structure of the cosmic species (cosmic tissue);
In the 21st century, scientists from the United States, Germany, and the United Kingdom performed the largest computer calculations using supercomputers to achieve the shape of the universe, until the supercomputer gave a glimpse of the structure of the universe.
Interestingly, the proposed shape was like a texture, according to which the scientists concluded that the galaxies were arranged like solid strings of a texture; Strings, each of which reaches millions of light years. The general conclusion of scientists is that the universe is woven with galaxies.!
Surprisingly, the Qur'an speaks of this cosmic context in an astonishing way in the following verse.
In Surah Dhariyat. Verse 7 says: Translation; I swear to heaven with strong and beautiful textures.
The word Habak in Arabic means a braid with strong and beautiful thread and fabric. And it means strengthening and improving the effect of texture in clothes. And in this paragraph, he uses the hub for the sky. Why? Before reviewing this, I need to make a point. The Qur'an was sent to the people of the seventh century in the land of Saudi Arabia. Because people understand the concepts of the Qur'an according to their own understanding and cultureTherefore, phrases and words should be used to make them understandable. Therefore, the interpretations of the Qur'an are among the words that can be understood in human culture in the history of the seventh century and in the land of Saudi Arabia. On the other hand, for me, who lives in the twentieth century, it does not seem to have to be understood. So how should I understand the current scientific content of this book? And man has realized this!Because of this; The author of the Qur'an has mostly used nature and many of its meanings are symbolic. That is, there is an example of it in nature and it points to an important point. It is better for man to search and study thoroughly to reach the meaning of the symbolic phrases of the Qur'an. There are many verses in the Qur'an that advise man to think, research and study the issues raised.Can anything be found in the recent discoveries of scientists about the existence of some kind of cosmic tissue? It is now appropriate to turn to the most recent astronomical discovery, which is about the cosmic structure and its shape, and its striking correspondence with this paragraph of the Qur'an.
Scientists have found that there are many galaxies in the created universe, estimated to number in the hundreds of billions, with billions of stars in each galaxy. They sought to find the question, what does the world of creation look like when viewed from the outside? And how are galaxies and cosmic gases and dusts distributed in the distances between stars? And is there a special order in their distribution in the universe?A number of scientists from Britain, Germany, Canada, and the United States recently performed the largest computer operation to obtain a small image of the created universe, giving thousands of millions of information about 20 million galaxies to the supercomputer, despite the supercomputer's rapid speed. It took 28 days for the supercomputer to present a small picture of the created world.
The information provided was about the expansion of the universe, stellar orbits, galactic compositions, dark matter, and cosmic gases and dusts to simulate the universe in its expansion and determine the path of galaxies and stars. "It's been the biggest thing we've ever done, and it's probably the biggest physical calculation," he says. We have for the first time succeeded in having a simulated version of the universe. It is a version equal to the original, which is quite similar to the universe, and therefore we can have our initial experiences in the universe.It is a great discovery by a scientist and discoverer that for the first time in history, scientists have been able to get to the real world of creation and how galaxies are distributed. The image that the supercomputer presented of the world of creation is like the weaves of a spider, or spider house, which is why scientists call this phenomenon "cosmic texture." Each of these strands of tissue is made up of thousands of galaxies. Therefore, it can be said that the universe is woven quite tightly from galaxies.If we ask those scientists who have discovered the cosmic texture and spent billions of dollars to find a picture of the world: What do you think of what you have discovered in the 21st century, in a book from the 7th century? It is AD and it is still there, it is exactly mentioned.
No doubt they will say:"Such a thing is impossible because predicting the existence of cosmic tissue requires telescopes and observatories around the world. In addition, thousands of researchers have to work to map thousands of galaxies with their locations and light spectra, but such a thing." "It is only available at the end of the twentieth century, and how can a human being report on these scientific facts 14 centuries ago?"In response to these scientists, we say that what you are saying is true if the Qur'an was made and paid for by a human being, but the bearer of the Qur'an is a superhuman being, not a human being. With this explanation, my heart is humbled by these scientific reasons and the legitimacy of the Qur'an and Islam. And I love it. This book and its creator did not come to weaken me. It came to advance me and take me out of the Middle Ages. To research new sciences. And always make progress.Indeed, the Prophet of Islam, who is an illiterate person, so how did she get these scientific facts?
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Old 15th August 2021, 04:41 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I've never seen or heard any astronomers refer to a pulsar as being like a giant hammer. The pulsing of a pulstar bears no similarity whatsoever to a striking hammer. It's due to the fact that the pulsar emits a beam of radiation in a particular direction, as the star rotates that beam moves around and is only observed when it points towards the earth, thereby giving the appearance of pulsing. A lighthouse, rather than a hammer, is the usual analogy. So this is another verse that cannot be interpreted to predict current scientific knowledge.

You're zero for three so far, heydarian. If this is all you've got, you've got nothing.
Scientists have observed and recorded the sound of pulsars. You can hear it yourself on the relevant sites. I've heard. Good luck.
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Old 15th August 2021, 04:46 AM   #312
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Dear Friends; I'm going on vacation for a few days and I will not be. I hope you are healthy. Have your questions so I can come back. Bye
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Old 15th August 2021, 04:50 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
Scientists have observed and recorded the sound of pulsars. You can hear it yourself on the relevant sites. I've heard. Good luck.
And? I've heard it too. There's still no way of sensibly interpreting "striking stars" as referring to pulsars. Pulsars are rotating neutron stars, period.

The "cosmic texture" supposed prediction seems like just as big a reach. This is desperate stuff.
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Old 15th August 2021, 04:52 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
...5. Pulses (pulsating stars);
Pulses are one of the most controversial discoveries of the twentieth century. Pulses refer to stars that sound like hammers. That's why scientists call them giant hammers. After much research, they have come to the conclusion that these stars emit very strong and penetrating waves that have the ability to penetrate everything; In general, they are "knocking" and "penetrating".
Pulses are one of the most astonishing astronomical phenomena for scientists.
The Qur'an has stated this truth in eloquent terms. Where he swore to this kind of stars and said:Translation: I swear by the sky and the (striking) star, and what do you know what the striking star is? (2) The same penetrating star! (3). (Surah Tariq, verses 1 to 3)
A study by Husselin Bell Bornell at the University of Cambridge in 1967 determined a regular radio signal. It was not previously known that celestial bodies had pulses like the heart. It becomes very busy and spins around.Then its magnetic field rotates and becomes extremely strong. For example, a trillion times stronger than the Earth's magnetic field. They discovered objects that spin around at very high speeds and convert strong radio waves into a cone. They broadcast themselves.It was later discovered that the source of these signals were neutron stars. These newly discovered neutron stars are also called Pulsar pulsar stars.Neutron stars are often invisible and can only be observed with radio waves (pulses). The waves coming from these stars look like someone is hitting somewhere! (Striking star).Yes, the word pulse from pulse means to move or strike or pulse regularly, which brings regular expansion and contraction in each pulse. This was mentioned about the stars long before the pulsating stars were discovered in the Qur'an. .Aren't these verses really a sign of knowledge and scientific encirclement of the narrator of the Qur'an? What is science? where does he come from? Who is the sender of the Quran book? And what is its purpose? Isn't his goal other than human progress and development?
So many errors to correct!

For a start, the word you want is pulsars, not pulses. Pulsars are the rotating neutron stars, pulses are nuts.

Pulsars are not "striking" stars. They do not strike or hit anything. They do not penetrate anything. They do not look like they are striking or penetrating. They simply rotate like a light in a modern lighthouse, so we can measure the regular blinking radio signal they are sending the same way as the rotating light. Do you know what a lighthouse is? Were there any modern lighthouses in the 13th century when the Qu'ran was written? I don't think so.

The ancient writer would have been referring to stars he could see in the sky, which radiate visible light in the 13th century. Pulsars have never been visible in the sky as they radiate at radio frequency. Unless the ancient writer had a radio-telescope, he would have known nothing about pulsars.

This claim is, to be honest, ridiculous.
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Old 15th August 2021, 04:53 AM   #315
heydarian saeed
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
Before we come to that stage you have to show that there is such a thing as “the supernatural”. Currently, there is not a shred of evidence that the supernatural exists.

This is another area where you have simply ignored what we said. You claimed that it was current knowledge that “souls” exist, and several of us said “no, it is not current knowledge; in fact it appears that souls do not exist.”

Souls, seem to be something that religious people, and superstitious people believe in, but there is no evidence for this existence, any more than for Santa Claus.

So you cannot just continue to build your argumentation on the existence of souls, when in fact you need to bring evidence for their existence.
Yes, I will surely bring you the soul through science and modern science, and I will show you its effects and signs in the laboratory. More importantly, I will say that humans can create living things. In a scientific way. Wait until the end of the article.
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Old 15th August 2021, 05:01 AM   #316
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Your translation of surah 51.7 is not the same as Pickthall and Yusuf Ali
Your translation is:
Surah Dhariyat. Verse 7 says: Translation; I swear to heaven with strong and beautiful textures.

Pickthall translation of 51.7 says : By the heaven full of paths

Yusuf Ali 51.7 says: By the sky with its numerous paths.

Neither verse says anything about textures.

Shakir says: I swear by the heaven full of ways.

Sherali says :And by the heaven full of tracks,
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 15th August 2021, 05:14 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
Dear Friends; I'm going on vacation for a few days and I will not be. I hope you are healthy. Have your questions so I can come back. Bye
Thanks for letting us know. I would have fretted that you were not posting.
We can continue this when you return.
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 15th August 2021, 05:50 AM   #318
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Here is some more obvious nonsense from the Quran which shows it is not from God.


It is clear that the quran is echoing the bible on the matter of the six days of creation, and the bible also says that a day in the sight of God is as a thousand years to us. This means that both the bible and the quran are saying that God created the heaven and earth in six thousand years. As this is obviously not the case, I put it to you that the real source of the creation myth as it appears in the quran is in fact the bible.
We know the universe has existed for around fourteen billion years, and we have hubble space telescope pictures of the edge of the universe to prove it.
We also know that the age of the earth is around four billion years, so we know that the universe existed for ten billion years before the earth was formed. We also know that the earth is made of atoms that were formed in the first stars, and ejected into space after they exploded. So planets could not even have been created for the first few billion years of the universe, because there were no heavy atoms in existence. So the bible is wrong and the quran exactly repeats this mythology.

Quran, sura 7.54 Lo! your Lord is Allah who created the heavens and the earth in six days.

Quran, sura 10.3 Lo! your Lord is Allah who created the heaven and earth in six days.

Quran, sura 11.7 And He it is. Who created the heavens and the earth in six days.

Quran, sura 25.59 Who created the heaven and earth and all that is between them in six days.

Quran, sura 50.38 And surely We created the heaven and earth, and all that is between them, in six days.

Quran, sura 57.4 He it is Who created the heaven and earth in six days.

Quran, sura 22.47 A day in the sight of the Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning.

Quran, sura 32.4 Allah it is who created the heaven and earth, and that which is between them, in six days. The he mounted the throne. You have not beside him a protecting friend or mediator. Will you not then remember?

Quran, sura 32.5 He directs the ordinance from the heaven unto the earth; then it ascends unto him, in a day whereof the measure is a thousand years of that you reckon.

Here are the bible sources for these texts.

Bible, Genesis 1.31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Bible 2Peter 3.8 But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is as with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 15th August 2021, 06:32 AM   #319
steenkh
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Apparently the Quran thinks the universe will end in a Big Crunch, at least if we believe the OP. However, presently the universe seems to die a cold death as dark energy tears it apart.

We’ll have to return to this thread when we know what is true …
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Old 15th August 2021, 06:35 AM   #320
steenkh
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Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
Yes, I will surely bring you the soul through science and modern science, and I will show you its effects and signs in the laboratory. More importantly, I will say that humans can create living things. In a scientific way. Wait until the end of the article.

If you want to “prove” the existence of souls later, you cannot presume the existence for your argument now.
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