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Old 27th August 2021, 04:13 AM   #81
Michel H
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Well, you have shown what you think about individual freedom.
It seems to me that only Afghans who have good reasons (for example business travel) should be allowed to leave their country, to prevent a catastrophic brain drain and economic collapse of Afghanistan.
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Old 27th August 2021, 04:47 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
No he didn't. In a lot of countries there are elections and political power passes peacefully from one government to the next.
It's like the League of Nations. Fair elections, rule of law.... all of it only work when there is nothing existential on the line. Pointing to countries who for many years hand over power from one dull regime to another and saying "therefore political power doesn't have to be backed by a gun", is like pointing to all the people who don't commit crimes and saying "therefore we don't need police".

For political power to be handed over fairly and peacefully, either relatively little has to be at stake for the sorts of people who could organize a coup/rig an election, or the cost of not handing over political power peacefully has to be very high.
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Old 27th August 2021, 04:56 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I'm not sure your premise is right, because isn't building a middle class exactly what was attempted?

Sending their girls to school, being moderate on religion, playing cricket... aren't those kind of things the exact domain of the middle classes?

Problem is those middle classes aren't armed to the teeth, while the religious zealots are. An AK47 beats a textbook every time.
I was thinking about this the other day. How long a period of Taliban control would it take to turn us into a nation of Islamic fundamentalists that carried on throwing homosexuals off buildings even if the Taliban left? 20 years seem like far too little time. Why would we expect to be able to change them more quickly?
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Old 27th August 2021, 05:03 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
It seems to me that only Afghans who have good reasons (for example business travel) should be allowed to leave their country, to prevent a catastrophic brain drain and economic collapse of Afghanistan.
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Old 27th August 2021, 06:34 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Of course. Why would I expect anything other than blaming the Jews for Islamic terrorism? Never mind that it’s historically ignorant and without any actual basis in fact. Al Qaeda didn’t really care about Israel.
You just have to read Osama bin Laden:
Quote:
God knows it did not cross our minds to attack the Towers, but after the situation became unbearable—and we witnessed the injustice and tyranny of the American-Israeli alliance against our people in Palestine and Lebanon—I thought about it. And the events that affected me directly were that of 1982 and the events that followed—when America allowed the Israelis to invade Lebanon, helped by the US Sixth Fleet. As I watched the destroyed towers in Lebanon, it occurred to me punish the unjust the same way: to destroy towers in America so it could taste some of what we are tasting and to stop killing our children and women.

— Osama bin Laden, 2004
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_...ber_11_attacks).

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Israel was an afterthought. They cared more about Al Andalus. Think we should give that back to appease them?
No, I don't think so.

Here is some of the things Joe Biden (whose approval rating seems to be in free fall these days) should do or might do (in my opinion) to stop anti-American hatred, a tragic example of which we just witnessed in Afghanistan:
1) Give the Taliban about 60% of the funding that the previous (democratic) government was receiving, provided they explain all expenses in a detailed way. Give them more if they create an inclusive government (with other political parties).
2) Lift all economic sanctions which target entire countries or their de-facto governments (for example the Taliban, Iran, Venezuela, Russia ...). Allow also freedom of speech on social media for organizations like the Taliban.
3) Suspend the U.S. financial aid to Israel. Use this money perhaps to build nuclear power stations and stop climate change.
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Old 27th August 2021, 06:37 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
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I really don't think that U.S. foreign policy is a model of brilliant intelligence. And the recent events don't make me change my mind.

Last edited by Michel H; 27th August 2021 at 06:41 AM.
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Old 27th August 2021, 07:00 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
You just have to read Osama bin Laden:
That's what he said post-9/11. Al Qaeda got a lot of flack in the middle east precisely because they had been largely ignoring Israel, and they tried to sound like they cared as a result. But they never really did. What really got the group off the ground was the US staging troops in Saudi Arabia in 1989 during the lead up to the first Gulf war.

And given that Al Qaeda didn't even really operate around Israel for most of its existence, why on earth would you expect Israel to be a priority for them? Conversely, if Israel was a priority, why would they spend so much time elsewhere, fighting other battles? It doesn't actually withstand scrutiny.

Quote:
Here is some of the things Joe Biden (whose approval rating seems to be in free fall these days) should do or might do (in my opinion) to stop anti-American hatred, a tragic example of which we just witnessed in Afghanistan:
1) Give the Taliban about 60% of the funding that the previous (democratic) government was receiving, provided they explain all expenses in a detailed way. Give them more if they create an inclusive government (with other political parties).
Bwahahahaha!

No.

First off, there's no chance in hell they will form an inclusive government. They will form a fundamentalist Islamic government. That is axiomatically not inclusive.

Second, why the **** would you ever believe anything they said about how they spent the money you gave them?

Quote:
2) Lift all economic sanctions which target entire countries or their de-facto governments (for example the Taliban, Iran, Venezuela, Russia ...). Allow also freedom of speech on social media for organizations like the Taliban.
Also, no. Why should we help our enemies?

Quote:
3) Suspend the U.S. financial aid to Israel. Use this money perhaps to build nuclear power stations and stop climate change.
We give financial aid to lots of countries. Why is it only Israel that we need to stop giving money to?

Oh, that's right. Because of the Jews. You think the world will stop hating us if we just let them destroy the Jews. Feeding the crocodile so it eats you last never works.
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Old 27th August 2021, 07:01 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I really don't think that U.S. foreign policy is a model of brilliant intelligence. And the recent events don't make me change my mind.
Neither do I. Our foreign policy "experts" are largely incompetent idiots. And yet, you still manage to be worse somehow.
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Old 27th August 2021, 09:01 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's what he said post-9/11. Al Qaeda got a lot of flack in the middle east precisely because they had been largely ignoring Israel, and they tried to sound like they cared as a result. But they never really did. What really got the group off the ground was the US staging troops in Saudi Arabia in 1989 during the lead up to the first Gulf war.

And given that Al Qaeda didn't even really operate around Israel for most of its existence, why on earth would you expect Israel to be a priority for them? Conversely, if Israel was a priority, why would they spend so much time elsewhere, fighting other battles? It doesn't actually withstand scrutiny.
It is true that bin Laden didn't like to see the U.S. military on Saudi soil but you don't really launch an attack of the scale of 9/11 just because the U.S. has deployed some troops to protect oil facilities, probably after a request by the Saudi government (and, anyway, with its agreement).
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
We give financial aid to lots of countries. Why is it only Israel that we need to stop giving money to?

Oh, that's right. Because of the Jews. You think the world will stop hating us if we just let them destroy the Jews. Feeding the crocodile so it eats you last never works.
Quote:
Why is it only Israel that we need to stop giving money to?
Because a large global power like the U.S. should not support illegal occupations in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

Israel has become a powerful country, more accepted by the international community than 50 years ago, and is under no imminent threat of destruction.

I really don't think you can seriously address the threat of global terrorism without taking into account the Israel-Palestine conflict.
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Old 27th August 2021, 09:35 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
It is true that bin Laden didn't like to see the U.S. military on Saudi soil but you don't really launch an attack of the scale of 9/11 just because the U.S. has deployed some troops to protect oil facilities, probably after a request by the Saudi government (and, anyway, with its agreement).
I don't launch an attack of that scale for that reason? You are correct, *I* do not. But bin Laden is not me, and his is not you. His motivations are alien to us. Why wouldn't he? Saudi Arabia is holy land. We are infidels. And in case you didn't notice, bin Laden rather hated the Saudi royals, precisely because they invited us in. You don't seem to actually take his religious beliefs seriously. He most certainly did take them seriously.

Quote:
Because a large global power like the U.S. should not support illegal occupations in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.
I keep seeing people talk about what's illegal, but other than appealing to the UN (which is a farce), there's no source for this claim. And it's a double standard anyways. Far worse behavior by other countries is ignored or accepted as routine.

Quote:
I really don't think you can seriously address the threat of global terrorism without taking into account the Israel-Palestine conflict.
Of course you don't think that. But you don't actually know anything. I'll let you in on a not-so-secret secret: most Arabs don't actually give a **** about the Palestinians, and many actually despise them. And Islamic terrorism is far more diverse than you give it credit for. Boko Harem doesn't give a **** about Israel. MILF doesn't give a **** about Israel. The bloody borders of the Islamic world aren't due to Israel.
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Last edited by Ziggurat; 27th August 2021 at 09:36 AM.
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Old 27th August 2021, 10:13 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't launch an attack of that scale for that reason? You are correct, *I* do not. But bin Laden is not me, and his is not you. His motivations are alien to us. Why wouldn't he? Saudi Arabia is holy land. We are infidels. And in case you didn't notice, bin Laden rather hated the Saudi royals, precisely because they invited us in. You don't seem to actually take his religious beliefs seriously. He most certainly did take them seriously.



I keep seeing people talk about what's illegal, but other than appealing to the UN (which is a farce), there's no source for this claim. And it's a double standard anyways. Far worse behavior by other countries is ignored or accepted as routine.



Of course you don't think that. But you don't actually know anything. I'll let you in on a not-so-secret secret: most Arabs don't actually give a **** about the Palestinians, and many actually despise them. And Islamic terrorism is far more diverse than you give it credit for. Boko Harem doesn't give a **** about Israel. MILF doesn't give a **** about Israel. The bloody borders of the Islamic world aren't due to Israel.
Quote:
I keep seeing people talk about what's illegal, but other than appealing to the UN (which is a farce)
No, the U.N. isn't just a farce or the joke, it is an important institution to maintain peace, security and dialogue among nations of the world:
Quote:
Charter of the United Nations
...
As a charter and constituent treaty, its rules and obligations are binding on all members and supersede those of other treaties.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charte...United_Nations).

Quote:
And Islamic terrorism is far more diverse than you give it credit for. Boko Harem doesn't give a **** about Israel. MILF doesn't give a **** about Israel. The bloody borders of the Islamic world aren't due to Israel.
The Israel/Palestine conflict is certainly not the only factor which motivates Islamic combatants.

Another problem is religion, especially the Muslim one, which seems to be particularly violent and intolerant (Sharia law and so on). In this respect, the U.S. could probably do more to fight superstition:
Quote:
By convention, incoming presidents raise their right hand and place the left on a Bible while taking the oath of office.
...
"So help me God"
...
In practice, however, most presidents, at least during the last century, have opted to take the oath (rather than an affirmation), to use a Bible to do so, and also to close the oath with the customary phrase.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_o...#Use_of_Bibles).
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Old 27th August 2021, 10:53 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
No, the U.N. isn't just a farce or the joke, it is an important institution to maintain peace, security and dialogue among nations of the world:
Yes, it is a farce. Just look at some of the countries which have sat on the human rights commission.

Quote:
The Israel/Palestine conflict is certainly not the only factor which motivates Islamic combatants.
Except in Israel, it's not even a significant one.

Quote:
Another problem is religion, especially the Muslim one, which seems to be particularly violent and intolerant (Sharia law and so on). In this respect, the U.S. could probably do more to fight superstition:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_o...#Use_of_Bibles).
Oh, FFS. This is one of the stupidest attempts at moral equivalency I've ever seen, and they're all stupid. Do you think bin Laden gave a single **** about how the President takes his oath of office? Do you think a single person in the entire world will change their opinion about the validity of religion if religious references were removed from that oath?

This is a non-issue.
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Old 27th August 2021, 11:23 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yes, it is a farce. Just look at some of the countries which have sat on the human rights commission.



Except in Israel, it's not even a significant one.



Oh, FFS. This is one of the stupidest attempts at moral equivalency I've ever seen, and they're all stupid. Do you think bin Laden gave a single **** about how the President takes his oath of office? Do you think a single person in the entire world will change their opinion about the validity of religion if religious references were removed from that oath?
Yes, of course I do. If the U.S. president made a very solemn statement to indicate that all references to religion should from now on be removed from the U.S. president's oath of office, because there is really no scientific evidence for a God, and because religious texts are filled with lies, this would certainly make headlines worldwide, and in a more interesting way that the latest Islamic terror attack, or the latest U.S. bombing.

And I think that this could save many lives (think about all the "Islamic combatants"), and liberate many people, because many people are kind of obsessed by their religion, especially in Muslim countries (Islam seeming a religion which is particularly retarded, and imposes many absurd constraints on people).

In a modern society, it is important to assign prestige to the things which really deserve respect (Science, for example). Religion is probably not one of these things, but this is probably still widely misunderstood in a supposedly advanced society like the States.

I remember this (very kind and nice) fellow who visited me sometimes when I was a student in the U.S. and gave me a Bible and said: "Jesus died for us, to save us ...". I am still not convinced by the logic of that argument ...
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Old 27th August 2021, 11:26 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Yes, of course I do.
There is no hope for you. You have terminal naivety.

Quote:
I remember this (very kind and nice) fellow who visited me sometimes when I was a student in the U.S. and gave me a Bible and said: "Jesus died for us, to save us ...". I am still not convinced by the logic of that argument ...
Well of course you weren't convinced. Just like nobody is going to be convinced by how the President takes his oath of office. Only an idiot would be convinced, and only an even bigger idiot would think anyone else would be convinced.
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Old 27th August 2021, 11:43 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Frankly, I don't even think the Afghans should be allowed to leave their country in these circumstances.

The Taliban should explain to them:"No, you can't go now because your country needs your talents and knowledge. Don't worry, you will be respected, you won't be persecuted".
I think westerners who promote this laughable drivel should should be forcibly relocated to Afghanistan immediately, while Afghans with the good sense to prefer not to live in a violent Islamic nightmare should be welcomed to Belgium (etc...) with open arms.

I mean this literally.
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Old 27th August 2021, 12:09 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
I think westerners who promote this laughable drivel should should be forcibly relocated to Afghanistan immediately, while Afghans with the good sense to prefer not to live in a violent Islamic nightmare should be welcomed to Belgium (etc...) with open arms.

I mean this literally.
I wonder if Michale H would have cndemned Jews who fled Naxi Germany causing a Brain Drain as well.
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Old 27th August 2021, 12:19 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I wonder if Michel H would have condemned Jews who fled Naxi Germany causing a Brain Drain as well.
No, I don't condemn the Jews who fled Germany in the 1930s because they were openly persecuted (Nuremberg laws and so on).

But the Taliban have not voted laws which segregate or discriminate those who have worked for Western countries, or for the democratic government. Instead, they have decreed, and repeated an amnesty.
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Old 27th August 2021, 12:23 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
I think westerners who promote this laughable drivel should should be forcibly relocated to Afghanistan immediately, while Afghans with the good sense to prefer not to live in a violent Islamic nightmare should be welcomed to Belgium (etc...) with open arms.

I mean this literally.
Then you are even more intolerant than the Taliban.

And it's not drivel, it's about preventing a predictable economic catastrophe.

The Taliban should take steps to make sure their country doesn't become an "Islamic nightmare" (one may cite an inclusive government, for example, if this is possible).

Objectively, just having worked for a foreign government, or for the legitimate, democratically elected government of Afghanistan, should be no cause for shame (in most cases) or for running away.

Last edited by Michel H; 27th August 2021 at 12:44 PM.
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Old 27th August 2021, 01:52 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Then you are even more intolerant than the Taliban.

And it's not drivel, it's about preventing a predictable economic catastrophe.
First, you're wrong on the facts: economic catastrophe cannot be prevented now. The Taliban will run the economy into the ground no matter who stays or leaves.

Second, you're basically arguing in favor of slavery on economic grounds, and that's just repulsive.

Quote:
The Taliban should take steps to make sure their country doesn't become an "Islamic nightmare" (one may cite an inclusive government, for example, if this is possible).
In other words, the Taliban should not be the Taliban.

But they are. And they want an Islamic nightmare. That's their explicit goal. They like it that way. And if your ignorance on this point actually held any sway in the world, you would be directly responsible for getting people killed. I take comfort in believing that you hold no actual influence over anything.

Quote:
Objectively, just having worked for a foreign government, or for the legitimate, democratically elected government of Afghanistan, should be no cause for shame (in most cases) or for running away.
The Taliban don't give a **** about what's objective.
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Old 27th August 2021, 01:59 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
No, I don't condemn the Jews who fled Germany in the 1930s because they were openly persecuted (Nuremberg laws and so on).

But the Taliban have not voted laws which segregate or discriminate those who have worked for Western countries, or for the democratic government. Instead, they have decreed, and repeated an amnesty.
And yet they keep killing such people anyways. They don't need laws to do so, they don't feel bound to public promises either.

"Don't run. We are your friends."
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Old 27th August 2021, 03:05 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I wonder if Michale H would have cndemned Jews who fled Naxi Germany causing a Brain Drain as well.
Wonder no more. The answer is yes.
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Old 27th August 2021, 03:08 PM   #102
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In the "Afghanistan -- would Trump have done differently?" thread (in the USA Politics subforum), Hercules56 just said this:
Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
He would have pulled our troops out by May 1st, as he promised, and taken ZERO Afghans with us.
This is an interesting remark, in view of what we know now (a big attack targeting people wanting to leave the country). Perhaps: "How being just selfish can save lives".
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Old 27th August 2021, 03:11 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Wonder no more. The answer is yes.
No (see post #97).
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Old 27th August 2021, 03:33 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Wonder no more. The answer is yes.
Michel H believes all the Taliban promises. That tells you are you need to know.
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Old 27th August 2021, 03:39 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
No (see post #97).


And, pray tell, what is the diffrence between a Jew fleeing Nazi Germany, or a RUssian fleeing Soviet Russia and an Afghan fleeing what anybody who is not living in another reality knows i going to be a brutal Taliban regime?
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Old 27th August 2021, 03:39 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
No (see post #97).
I saw post 97. I don't believe it.
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Old 27th August 2021, 03:55 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
I think westerners who promote this laughable drivel should should be forcibly relocated to Afghanistan immediately, while Afghans with the good sense to prefer not to live in a violent Islamic nightmare should be welcomed to Belgium (etc...) with open arms.

I mean this literally.
I more then every think this is the latest verson of Rosseua crap Nobel Savage theory...that (for lack of a better word) primitive,less developed peoples are automatcially purer,more spiritual, and generally morally superior to corrupt Modern Society.
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Old 27th August 2021, 03:56 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
I saw post 97. I don't believe it.
Yeah, making people slaves to the state is OK with Michael H.
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Old 27th August 2021, 04:16 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And, pray tell, what is the diffrence between a Jew fleeing Nazi Germany, or a RUssian fleeing Soviet Russia and an Afghan fleeing what anybody who is not living in another reality knows i going to be a brutal Taliban regime?
There is an essential difference between a Jew fleeing Germany in the 1930s, and an Afghan fleeing Afghanistan now, in the sense that the Jews in Germany were no longer welcome in their own country (according to their government, which was thinking about relocating all of them in Madagascar), while the Taliban have decreed an amnesty, and have expressed concern about the departure of so many of their fellow citizens.

One might argue that most of the Afghans leaving now are actually cowards and traitors to their own country, who exaggerate the Taliban threat ("They are going to kill me if they know what I have done" (sic)), in order to be able to emigrate. Resettling them in the West will be complicated and expensive (and sometimes painful for them) at a time when the world is in a crisis:
Quote:
KABUL, Afghanistan — In his first sit-down interview with a Western media outlet since the Taliban took full control of Afghanistan, one of the group’s leaders on Wednesday offered a portrait of a group intent on rebuilding a country shattered by decades of war.

“We want to build the future, and forget what happened in the past,” the spokesman, Zabihullah Mujahid, said in an interview with The New York Times.
...
He also denied allegations that the Taliban have been searching for former interpreters and others who worked for the American military, and claimed that they would be safe in their own country. And he expressed frustration at the Western evacuation efforts.

“They shouldn’t interfere in our country and take out our human resources: doctors, professors and other people we need here,” Mr. Mujahid said. “In America, they might become dishwashers or cooks. It’s inhuman.
(https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/08...bul-biden-news).

One might argue that the Biden administration is now trying to develop a new kind of crime against humanity: removing all intellectual and economic elites from a country, this being combined with various forms of ferocious and idiotic sanctions (central bank reserves frozen and so on). They may know what they're doing, but I am not sure at all their goal is to help the 38 million Afghans. Let me just say it's the "American way".
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Old 27th August 2021, 04:20 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Yeah, making people slaves to the state is OK with Michael H.
Not slaves, the Taliban have a duty to do all they can to provide them with a good life.

But the U.S. might be a more dangerous enemy to the Afghan people than the Taliban themselves (note that I said "might", because I am actually not sure about this).
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Old 27th August 2021, 04:42 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
One might argue that the Biden administration is now trying to develop a new kind of crime against humanity: removing all intellectual and economic elites from a country, this being combined with various forms of ferocious and idiotic sanctions (central bank reserves frozen and so on). They may know what they're doing, but I am not sure at all their goal is to help the 38 million Afghans. Let me just say it's the "American way".
It's nice that you are so far superior to those all educated people such that you know what's best for them better than they do.

Honestly - you make them sound like subhuman animals who can't comprehend what's good, but you will be their savior from on high.

They are human people who can make their own choices - they don't need your supremacist views to guide them.
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Old 27th August 2021, 05:04 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
It's nice that you are so far superior to those all educated people such that you know what's best for them better than they do.
Those educated people might have an intelligent understanding of what is good for them, personally.

But there are other important aspects: the country they leave behind, the problems they will face in their new countries, the cost of resettling them, geopolitical considerations of peace and justice.

I make no claim of being "superior" to anyone, my opinions are just my own. But I do have some general ideas about peace and progress which, I think, may be of interest. These ideas, if implemented, could profoundly change the world. It would be something different from "every week, a new terror attack".
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Old 27th August 2021, 08:02 PM   #113
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One less ISIS K scum littering up the universe.
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Old 27th August 2021, 11:09 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Not slaves, the Taliban have a duty to do all they can to provide them with a good life.

But the U.S. might be a more dangerous enemy to the Afghan people than the Taliban themselves (note that I said "might", because I am actually not sure about this).
The Taliban do not care what you think their duty is, and they feel no obligation to fulfill your imagined duty. And they do not agree with you about what a good life is. For them, raping women is a good life.
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Old 28th August 2021, 12:22 AM   #115
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The Taliban might be chums with Beijing, but that just makes Chinese enterprises in the country a jucy target for anti-Taliban groups.
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Old 28th August 2021, 12:43 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
I saw post 97. I don't believe it.
But Hitler was a great painter....he could do a whole apartment in one afternoon, two coats!
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Old 28th August 2021, 07:44 AM   #117
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Even if you're not superior,

Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
....I make no claim....But I do have some general ideas about peace and progress which...if implemented, could profoundly change the world....
you should publish. I mean, changing the world? And profoundly even? Sounds worth the effort.

I know! Start a thread here!
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Old 28th August 2021, 09:31 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The Taliban might be chums with Beijing, but that just makes Chinese enterprises in the country a jucy target for anti-Taliban groups.
Wonder how China would react to an attack on their financial interests there?
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Old 28th August 2021, 12:30 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
Wonder how China would react to an attack on their financial interests there?
They would be willing to kill lots and lots of people in response.

But I don't think they are actually able to do very much. Afghanistan and China technically share a border, but there are no roads across it, and it's at the end of this weird protrusion through pretty barren wasteland. Overland access has to be through Turkmenistan. That country is friendly enough, but that still only gets them to the border. China's military has scant experience with foreign deployments OR counter-insurgency, and it doesn't have a whole lot of airlift capacity. Even from just a logistics point of view, projecting power into Afghanistan is a nightmare for them. They may be far more ruthless than we are, but that doesn't mean they'll have any more success.

Probably their best leverage is to bribe Pakistan into keeping the Taliban in line, but that's of likely limited efficacy. Pakistan created the Taliban, and may have some influence with them still, but the monster is already off the leash.
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Old 29th August 2021, 02:21 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
They would be willing to kill lots and lots of people in response.

But I don't think they are actually able to do very much. Afghanistan and China technically share a border, but there are no roads across it, and it's at the end of this weird protrusion through pretty barren wasteland. Overland access has to be through Turkmenistan. That country is friendly enough, but that still only gets them to the border. China's military has scant experience with foreign deployments OR counter-insurgency, and it doesn't have a whole lot of airlift capacity. Even from just a logistics point of view, projecting power into Afghanistan is a nightmare for them. They may be far more ruthless than we are, but that doesn't mean they'll have any more success.

Probably their best leverage is to bribe Pakistan into keeping the Taliban in line, but that's of likely limited efficacy. Pakistan created the Taliban, and may have some influence with them still, but the monster is already off the leash.
Re. the highlighted: Turkmenistan is on the other side of Asia. Do you mean Tajikistan- which is more affiliated with Russia than with China- or perhaps Xinjiang, which was formerly known as Turkestan?
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