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Old 9th September 2021, 03:42 AM   #241
Michel H
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
A view of Afghanistan under the Taliban from on the ground in Kabul.

By a woman.

Al Jazeera reporter Charlotte Bellis has no plans to leave and here's her take, which is a lot more informed than a bunch of keyboard warriors, almost none of whom have set foot in the country: https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/l...-her-feel-safe
This article was first posted on August 22 (18 days ago): https://capsulenz.com/think/charlott...s-afghanistan/ and is a little old and out-of-date for the keyboard warriors who want to keep up-to-date with the most recent developments in this fast-evolving situation.
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Old 9th September 2021, 01:00 PM   #242
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She's on Al Jazeera most days and is staying.
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Old 9th September 2021, 09:57 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
A view of Afghanistan under the Taliban from on the ground in Kabul.

By a woman.

Al Jazeera reporter Charlotte Bellis has no plans to leave and here's her take, which is a lot more informed than a bunch of keyboard warriors, almost none of whom have set foot in the country: https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/l...-her-feel-safe
Quote:
“The Taliban have always treated me respectfully, and they’ve never intimidated me. I’m surprised at the image of them around the world, that they’re so inhuman. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.

“The easiest way for me to explain it is that the Taliban are like any political party. There are medieval brutes that you need to stay away from, there are politicians who will just tell you what you want to hear, and then there are smart, authentic people who genuinely want to see betterment, and who just didn’t want Americans here.

“Those are the people that I have relationships with – they’re intelligent and rational and want to see Afghanistan improve.
Yes let's improve Afghanistan by instituting an incompetent reactionary totalitarian theocracy that terrorizes people into following its rules. Naturally this can only be done by killing hundreds of thousands of people and maiming countless others, but the price is well worth it.

The Taliban - No different from any other political party or organisation.
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Last edited by Arcade22; 9th September 2021 at 10:02 PM.
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Old 9th September 2021, 10:12 PM   #244
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Meanwhile, in the real world, non-useful idiots are being beaten and tortured by The Taliban for having the courage to cover people protesting.

Quote:
A spate of violent attacks on Afghan journalists by the*Taliban*is prompting growing alarm over the freedom of the country’s media, with one senior journalist declaring that “press freedom has ended”.

As images and testimony circulated internationally of the arrest and brutal flogging of two reporters who were detained covering a women’s rights demonstration in Kabul on Wednesday, Human Rights Watch and the Committee to Protect Journalists raised concern over the recent string of attacks.

In just two days this week, the Taliban detained and later released at least 14 journalists covering protests in Kabul, with at least six of these journalists subject to violence during their arrests or detention, the CPJ reported.

Other journalists, including some working with the BBC, were also prevented from filming the protest on Wednesday.

The Taliban authorities also briefly detained a*Tolonews*photojournalist, Wahid Ahmadi, on Tuesday, confiscating his camera and preventing other journalists from filming the protest he was covering.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-growing-alarm

Journalism?! I don't bloody think shariah allows it!
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Old 9th September 2021, 11:06 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Yes let's improve Afghanistan by instituting an incompetent reactionary totalitarian theocracy that terrorizes people into following its rules.
But enough about Texas.

Exactly how are our reactionary theocratic schemes improving Afghanistan?

Originally Posted by Arcade22
Meanwhile, in the real world, non-useful idiots are being beaten and tortured by The Taliban for having the courage to cover people protesting.
Meanwhile in our real world, journalists in the US are being assaulted while police officers stand by.


‘Open season on media’: journalists increasingly targeted at Los Angeles protests
Quote:
Los Angeles has seen volatile protests almost every weekend this summer over trans rights, political opposition to masks and vaccines, and the recall of the Democratic governor. At least seven journalists have been physically assaulted while covering these rallies, six of them by rightwing demonstrators.

Attacks on the press are just one part of escalating rightwing street violence in the city, which has included multiple stabbings, people being sprayed in the face with bear Mace, an assault on a breast cancer patient outside a clinic, and repeated physical brawls with leftwing protesters in the streets. In another sign of growing tensions, protesters rallying against vaccine mandates showed up at the homes of two Los Angeles city council members on Sunday.

Several Los Angeles journalists said the violence was like nothing they had seen before, and that some of the attacks had taken place with police officers standing nearby.
Here's an idea. Instead of wringing our hands about what a country half way around the World is finally able to do after 20 years of us 'improving' it, how about we do something about the reactionary theocratic violence in our own country?
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Old 10th September 2021, 12:46 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
The Taliban - No different from any other political party or organisation.
No, they're an evil bunch of fanatics using islam as a tool.

And what do you want to do about it? Invade them and have another 20-year war?

Turn them into pariahs like North Korea, which neatly allows the leadership to starve millions of people to death?

Turn them over to sole Chinese influence and allow the Uighurs to be exterminated entirely?

How many people crying about the Taliban in this thread ranted about the Rwandan genocide and demanded action? How many of them remember Biafra, far less know what caused the famine? And of those few, how many stood outside Westminster and demanded criminal trials of those responsible?

Speaking of UK, it's not like Ireland's been well handled for several centuries, and in the end, they were forced to talk to Sinn Fein. I believe they even sit in Parliament now, and 40 years ago they were viewed exactly the same as the Taliban - murdering terrorist bastards, so yeah, maybe the Taliban aren't much different from other political parties.

If ever there were a time for the "You catch more flies with jam than vinegar" approach, what to do with the Taliban seems to be it.
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Old 10th September 2021, 10:46 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
No, they're an evil bunch of fanatics using islam as a tool.
You have it completely backwards. Religion is not a tool for these people, it's the goal.

Quote:
And what do you want to do about it? Invade them and have another 20-year war?
No what I want to do is pretend that the Taliban are a perfectly good people who are not really different from anyone else and all they want is to make Afghanistan a better place without any Americans.

Quote:
Turn them into pariahs like North Korea, which neatly allows the leadership to starve millions of people to death?
I'm pretty sure that the Taliban will be able to starve their people to death all on their own, just like the Kim dynasty does.

Oh and the Taliban have made themselves pariahs, but if you want act like 9/11 never happened then go ahead.

Quote:
Turn them over to sole Chinese influence and allow the Uighurs to be exterminated entirely?
That's such an ridiculous red herring that you deserve some kind of reward for it.

Quote:
How many people crying about the Taliban in this thread ranted about the Rwandan genocide and demanded action? How many of them remember Biafra, far less know what caused the famine? And of those few, how many stood outside Westminster and demanded criminal trials of those responsible?
Whataboutitis is a dangerous disease and I don't want to be infected. Try again.
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Old 10th September 2021, 10:49 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Here's an idea. Instead of wringing our hands about what a country half way around the World is finally able to do after 20 years of us 'improving' it, how about we do something about the reactionary theocratic violence in our own country?
Here's an idea: if you want to discuss American politics please do so in the proper forum section. This is a thread about Afghanistan, not your country.
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Old 11th September 2021, 03:42 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Oh and the Taliban have made themselves pariahs, but if you want act like 9/11 never happened then go ahead.
That is truly pathetic.

USA waged war on them for 20 years due to an attack carried out by a bunch of Saudi nationals.

But do carry on - you have no answers and are simply whining.

Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Whataboutitis is a dangerous disease and I don't want to be infected. Try again.
Yeah, it's dangerous because it's true. Atrocities happen all the time, and are ignored. There are a lot more people at risk right now in Ethiopia than Afghanistan, but it's whataboutism, so you can forget them.

In your infinite wisdom, what do you think the west should do about the Taliban?
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Old 11th September 2021, 05:28 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
That is truly pathetic.

USA waged war on them for 20 years due to an attack carried out by a bunch of Saudi nationals.
Are you really pretending the Taliban didn’t have a hand in 9/11?
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Old 11th September 2021, 07:25 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
That is truly pathetic.

USA waged war on them for 20 years due to an attack carried out by a bunch of Saudi nationals.
You are either lying or extremely ignorant.

The Taliban aided and abetted Al-Qaeda, refused to stop doing so even after the US launch missile strikes against AQ camps in Afghanistan after the USS Cole attack. They ignored UN sanctions to cease hosting terrorists even before 9/11. They knew exactly what AQ was doing.

Most importantly, even today they have not renounced Al-Qaeda.
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Old 11th September 2021, 01:06 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Are you really pretending the Taliban didn’t have a hand in 9/11?
Of course not.

I just find the response by USA hilarious.

"We've just had a terrorist strike carried out by a bunch of Saudis, aided by Afghanistan!"

"Ok, let's bomb the **** out of Afghanistan for twenty years and suck up to the House of Saud some more."

And just remind me again where those guys took their flying lessons? I'm pretty sure it wasn't Kabul.
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Old 11th September 2021, 02:45 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Of course not.

I just find the response by USA hilarious.

"We've just had a terrorist strike carried out by a bunch of Saudis, aided by Afghanistan!"

"Ok, let's bomb the **** out of Afghanistan for twenty years and suck up to the House of Saud some more."

And just remind me again where those guys took their flying lessons? I'm pretty sure it wasn't Kabul.
I’m confused. Did you want us to bomb Saudi Arabia?
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Old 12th September 2021, 02:19 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I’m confused. Did you want us to bomb Saudi Arabia?
No, I'd prefer you bombed nobody. The strikes are often very badly targeted and result in numerous innocent deaths. The fact that USA actively supports the revolting, murderous and genocidal Saud regime seems pretty damned ironic when you've just spent 20 years losing to a different bunch of ragheads.

The point is, there are many murderous, revolting dictatorships around the world and nobody voted America to play judge, jury and executioner. I have no idea what the criteria is for military action, because several million dead Rwandans didn't rate a single Seal team, and I don't see any attempt for America to divorce its production and economy from China, or declare war on them while they're actively involved in persecuting a million or so people.

Maybe if you guys won a war every now and then there'd be a point to it all, but as Iraq and Afghanistan show, countries are usually worse off after your involvement.
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Old 12th September 2021, 06:27 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
No, I'd prefer you bombed nobody.
Yeah, that's not going to happen. Nor, frankly, should it. Military reprisals for 9/11 were justified. You can quibble about how those reprisals were done, but if you actually think we would have been better off just taking it lying down, well, that's as delusional as thinking Hitler could have been appeased by letting him have Poland.

Quote:
I have no idea what the criteria is for military action, because several million dead Rwandans didn't rate a single Seal team
While I wish we had done something, it's not wrong for us to prioritize American lives.

Quote:
and I don't see any attempt for America to divorce its production and economy from China
There are some attempts. Yes, we should do more. But that's not really got a lot to do with Afghanistan.

Quote:
or declare war on them while they're actively involved in persecuting a million or so people.
Again: it is right and proper for the US government to prioritize US lives.
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Old 12th September 2021, 08:31 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Of course not.

I just find the response by USA hilarious.

"We've just had a terrorist strike carried out by a bunch of Saudis, aided by Afghanistan!"

"Ok, let's bomb the **** out of Afghanistan for twenty years and suck up to the House of Saud some more."

And just remind me again where those guys took their flying lessons? I'm pretty sure it wasn't Kabul.
Why would there be repercussions for a government that clearly didn't support these guys?

Why wouldn't there be repercussions for the government that did support them?

You seem to have a very weird idea of how complicity works. Either that or you've got a pretty good conspiracy theory going on.
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Old 12th September 2021, 08:46 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Speaking of UK, it's not like Ireland's been well handled for several centuries, and in the end, they were forced to talk to Sinn Fein. I believe they even sit in Parliament now, and 40 years ago they were viewed exactly the same as the Taliban - murdering terrorist bastards, so yeah, maybe the Taliban aren't much different from other political parties.
No. Sink Fein do not take their seats in Westminster. What planet are you on?
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Old 12th September 2021, 09:35 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
No. Sink Fein do not take their seats in Westminster. What planet are you on?
Plus, Sinn Fein were affiliated with the IRA, but not actually terrorists themselves.
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Old 12th September 2021, 11:47 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Of course not.

I just find the response by USA hilarious.

"We've just had a terrorist strike carried out by a bunch of Saudis, aided by Afghanistan!"

"Ok, let's bomb the **** out of Afghanistan for twenty years and suck up to the House of Saud some more."
Yes I do love these non-sequiturs you keep coming up with, they are very funny.

The US retaliating against terrorists who are operating out of Afghanistan is bad because many of them were from Saudi Arabia? Saudi Arabia sucks therefore Taliban and Al-Qaeda are good and America bad for defending themselves?

Quote:
And just remind me again where those guys took their flying lessons? I'm pretty sure it wasn't Kabul.
I'm not sure Kabul had a flight school at the time.
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Old 12th September 2021, 11:52 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yeah, that's not going to happen. Nor, frankly, should it. Military reprisals for 9/11 were justified.
A typical American response.

What a complete picture of everything that's wrong with America - you have only one eye open, and the only response ever is to hit harder than you yourself were hit. How very ******* grown-up of you. I've always considered America a bit like politicians - a toddler who never grew up. Cry and throw your toys out of the cot.

In 2021 AD.*

Utterly pathetic. Christ, I hope Vlad doesn't even perfect one of his not-secret weapons, because America would collectively **** its pants so hard the world would probably flip.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You can quibble about how those reprisals were done, but if you actually think we would have been better off just taking it lying down, well, that's as delusional as thinking Hitler could have been appeased by letting him have Poland.
Wow, Godwin already? Well played.

Again, you are so one-eyed you can't even see an alternative to lying down with your legs open. It never even occurs to you that there are options inbetween abject surrender and smashing the living crap out of them, while spending a trillion or two and killing or ruining countless American lives.

Nice work.

And you don't see the irony in promoting war when you've just utterly lost one, at enormous cost, for the sake of exactly no progress! You spent 20 years trying to defeat the Taliban and it took them a few days to take it all back.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
While I wish we had done something, it's not wrong for us to prioritize American lives.
I hope you were clutching your tit and saluting the American flag while you typed that.

Of course, American lives are more important than any other. Another reason the world views the country with horror or derision.

I can't wait to see how trying to stop the Rwandan genocide is prioritising American lives. Most of deaths were done with machetes fire. No IEDs, a few hundreds AK47s.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
There are some attempts. Yes, we should do more. But that's not really got a lot to do with Afghanistan.
China has everything to do with Afghanistan, and not just least because China is going to dive into that vacuum of international relations.

And since you're so worried about those god-blessed American people, I'd have expected any country that has so far killed tens of thousands of Americans in the past five years to be seen as a major threat.

Almost all illegal fentanyl comes to USA from China. I'd estimate the death toll from https://www.commonwealthfund.org/blo...-addressing-it.

And you can bet your life it's done with the full complicity of the CCP. Without political support the guys running it would be rotting corpses and the trade wouldn't exist.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Why would there be repercussions for a government that clearly didn't support these guys?

Why wouldn't there be repercussions for the government that did support them?
What repercussions are you talking about?

They can vary from suspending sports relations to all-out war.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You seem to have a very weird idea of how complicity works. Either that or you've got a pretty good conspiracy theory going on.
No, you just missed the entire point - try again. Maybe read my response above.

Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
No. Sink Fein do not take their seats in Westminster. What planet are you on?
When did they sink? But, fair cop.

Assembly.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Plus, Sinn Fein were affiliated with the IRA, but not actually terrorists themselves.
Jeez, that's a very fine distinction you're attempting there.

"Affiliated with IRA" doesn't seem to fit with: The British government stated in 2005 that "we had always said all the way through we believed that Sinn Féin and the IRA were inextricably linked and that had obvious implications at leadership level"

I think NI and the delightfully euphemistic name for the Civil War that raged for an entire generation of "The Troubles" are a good example of talking rather than shooting.

3500 known victims of that war, in a count that is almost certainly short, and a conflict that involved equally-horrendous human abuses, torture, rape and murder than the Taliban are capable of.

Yet, they put their guns and blowtorches down and while things aren't perfect, it's a very large improvement.

If you can spot the difference between raping and killing by the Taliban and raping and killing by provos and prods, let me know, because I ain't seeing any.


*Yes, don't care
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Old 12th September 2021, 11:53 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Yes I do love these non-sequiturs you keep coming up with, they are very funny.
I wonder if English is your second language, because you seem to miss a lot of context and nuance.

This is what I mean:

Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
The US retaliating against terrorists who are operating out of Afghanistan is bad because many of them were from Saudi Arabia?
No, Attacking Afghanistan was bad, because it was a stupid response to 9/11. And I'm not some Johnny-jump-lately-on-the-bandwagon in this, I have extensive blogs and letters from the time saying it was dumb and wouldn't work, and here were are twenty bleeding years later, and we know for certain it was dumb and didn't work. If you think it was a smart, successful action, please let me know how you arrived at that conclusion.

Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Saudi Arabia sucks therefore Taliban and Al-Qaeda are good and America bad for defending themselves?
Word salad, light on mayo.

Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I'm not sure Kabul had a flight school at the time.
Comprehension level 0, although I'll raise that to a 3 if you were trying to be funny.
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Old 12th September 2021, 11:56 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Plus, Sinn Fein were affiliated with the IRA, but not actually terrorists themselves.
Interesting viewpoint. My view is that affiliating with terrorists makes you a terrorist too. Or did you mean to say that Sinn Fein repudiated the IRA?
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Old 12th September 2021, 01:10 PM   #263
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While there's no doubt some elements of the Taliban are indulging in sadistic fantasies, they're certainly trying to stand up to criticism as a government:

Quote:
Afghan universities will be segregated by gender, and a new Islamic dress code will be introduced, the Taliban has said.

Higher Education Minister Abdul Baqi Haqqani indicated women would be allowed to study, but not alongside men.
That's a 1000% improvement on their previous position of not allowing women to study at all.

And an interesting side-note in that story:

Quote:
The announcement comes after a demonstration by women supportive of the Taliban's gender policies at Shaheed Rabbani Education University in Kabul yesterday.

Hundreds of women, most of them wearing black niqabs and carrying small Taliban flags, listened to speeches that praised the new regime and attacked those involved in large demonstrations across the country demanding the protection of women's rights.

Higher Education Minister Abdul Baqi Haqqani indicated women would be allowed to study, but not alongside men.
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Old 12th September 2021, 01:18 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
A typical American response.

What a complete picture of everything that's wrong with America - you have only one eye open, and the only response ever is to hit harder than you yourself were hit.
I never said anything about "harder". You invented that.

But your knee-jerk straw-man hyperventilating is a pretty good encapsulation of much (but not all) of what's wrong with anti-Americanism.

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Of course, American lives are more important than any other. Another reason the world views the country with horror or derision.
I didn't say that either. I said that America should prioritize American lives. Every country does that. Germany prioritizes German lives, Japan prioritizes Japanese lives, China prioritizes Chinese lives. There's nothing wrong with that, and if other countries view us with horror or derision for doing so, that's just pure hypocrisy on their part, since everyone does that. No country can survive if they don't. You can't even pretend that there's anything wrong with America prioritizing Americans. You have to straw man it instead, and claim it's something different than it actually is.

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I can't wait to see how trying to stop the Rwandan genocide is prioritising American lives. Most of deaths were done with machetes fire. No IEDs, a few hundreds AK47s.
This... doesn't even make any sense. You've completely lost the thread of any coherent expression. The fact that the Rwandan genocide involved so little military force is precisely why we could have intervened while still prioritizing ourselves. Untold thousands could have been saved at very little risk to our own forces. Prioritizing American lives doesn't mean being indifferent to others.

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China has everything to do with Afghanistan
They may have a lot to do with it going forward. They had nothing to do with our decision to invade in 2001.

Quote:
And since you're so worried about those god-blessed American people, I'd have expected any country that has so far killed tens of thousands of Americans in the past five years to be seen as a major threat.

Almost all illegal fentanyl comes to USA from China. I'd estimate the death toll from https://www.commonwealthfund.org/blo...-addressing-it.
What's your point? That China are bad guys? Yeah, I know. You aren't actually presenting anything that runs counter to me here.
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Old 12th September 2021, 05:07 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
While there's no doubt some elements of the Taliban are indulging in sadistic fantasies, they're certainly trying to stand up to criticism as a government:



That's a 1000% improvement on their previous position of not allowing women to study at all.

And an interesting side-note in that story:
If Adlof HItler were to end up oppoosed to the US, wyou would probably7 say nice things about Hitler.
You hate the US, pure and simple.
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Old 12th September 2021, 05:34 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I wonder if English is your second language, because you seem to miss a lot of context and nuance.
You are the one being incoherent, sorry.

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No, Attacking Afghanistan was bad, because it was a stupid response to 9/11. And I'm not some Johnny-jump-lately-on-the-bandwagon in this, I have extensive blogs and letters from the time saying it was dumb and wouldn't work, and here were are twenty bleeding years later, and we know for certain it was dumb and didn't work.
Okay Americans and the rest of the western world should just resign themselves to being killed by Terrorists without doing anything about it because doing something is "stupid", "dumb and "wouldn't work".

Presumably you'd be the first one to offer your family's heads to Al-Qaeda?

Quote:
If you think it was a smart, successful action, please let me know how you arrived at that conclusion.
Go ahead and bring up the old blog-posts and show your own reasoning why invading Afghanistan and ousting the Taliban would not stop Al-Qaeda from using Afghanistan as a base from which to commit terrorist attacks abroad.

In that regard the US and NATO response has actually been highly successful. The sole reason that the Taliban were able to persist in Afghanistan had nothing to do with 9/11 or Al-Qaeda but rather Pakistan's continuing support for the Taliban. They would not have been able to achieve nearly the same success without that help.

Quote:
Word salad, light on mayo.
How about you explain your rambling insane reasoning instead of insulting me?

Quote:
Comprehension level 0, although I'll raise that to a 3 if you were trying to be funny.
So you actually meant that they should have bombed the Flight school in America? You are more deranged than i thought.
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Old 12th September 2021, 05:44 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What's your point? That China are bad guys? Yeah, I know. You aren't actually presenting anything that runs counter to me here.
The reasoning is simply insane in its simplicity: if you bomb someone who assisted in the murder of thousands of your people then you absolutely must do the same to every single problem in the world. No exceptions.

If you bomb one you must bomb them all. Even things in the past must be bombed.
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Old 12th September 2021, 06:00 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
And an interesting side-note in that story:
I wonder how many of them were actual students and how much flour they got for showing up, unless they were just brought in at gunpoint.
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Old 12th September 2021, 06:11 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
The reasoning is simply insane in its simplicity: if you bomb someone who assisted in the murder of thousands of your people then you absolutely must do the same to every single problem in the world. No exceptions.
That would indeed be insane reasoning. But you may well be correct. I can’t think of any alternative interpretation that makes any sense.
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Old 13th September 2021, 02:30 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Interesting viewpoint. My view is that affiliating with terrorists makes you a terrorist too. Or did you mean to say that Sinn Fein repudiated the IRA?
No, I said what I meant to say. This forum is becoming less civil and more patronising by the day.
It is a fine distinction, but an important one.
It is possible to support the goals of the IRA- i.e. reunification with Ireland- without supporting the use of violence to acheive those goals.
This is what made the Good Friday Agreements possible- negotiation with Sinn Fein, in the knowledge that these talks would feed back to the IRA leadership, and their approval could be assessed and communicated. Ditto for the Unionist parties.
This is also what happened with the Taliban. The negotiators in Qatar were far more moderate. I wonder what they must be thinking seeing as most of what they agreed to had been abandoned by the hardline Taliban now they've got into power. A split between these factions would not necessarily be a bad thing, if it can rein in the fanatics.
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Old 13th September 2021, 03:27 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Plus, Sinn Fein were affiliated with the IRA, but not actually terrorists themselves.
That was never more than a convenient fiction.
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Old 13th September 2021, 07:33 AM   #272
Cosmic Yak
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That was never more than a convenient fiction.
Again, yes and no.
If you don't actually commit acts of terrorism, then arguably, you're not a terrorist. The line is vague and controversial, but it can be drawn somewhere.

That said, saying that Sinn Fein was a legitimate political party- even though everyone knew they were just the political arm of the IRA- was,as you say, a convenient fiction, but one that allowed negotiations to proceed, ultimately leading to the peace deal.
I would say that was a useful and pragmatic position to take.
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Old 13th September 2021, 12:46 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That was never more than a convenient fiction.
Sinn Finn was to the IRA like the Genco Puro Olive Oil company was to Vito Corleone: Nothing but a legal front to provide cover if his lillegal operations.
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Old 13th September 2021, 12:54 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
If Adlof HItler were to end up oppoosed to the US, wyou would probably7 say nice things about Hitler.
Funny you should mention that.

If I recall my history right, USA stayed completely out of WWII until the Japs sent you an invitation you couldn't refuse. A couple of famous Hitler fans spring to mind, and I think they were Yanks - one was a Kennedy, I think, and the other was some pilot bloke... Lindstrum, Lingham... no, Lindbergh, that was it.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You hate the US, pure and simple.
No, I hate the way it uses its power and weapons.
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Old 13th September 2021, 01:04 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
No, I said what I meant to say. This forum is becoming less civil and more patronising by the day.
It is a fine distinction, but an important one.
It is possible to support the goals of the IRA- i.e. reunification with Ireland- without supporting the use of violence to acheive those goals.
I wholeheartedly agree. I would respect a political party that espoused the goals while repudiating terrorism as a tool to achieve those goals. Sinn Fein didn't do that. As you say, they affiliated with the IRA.

Quote:
This is what made the Good Friday Agreements possible- negotiation with Sinn Fein, in the knowledge that these talks would feed back to the IRA leadership, and their approval could be assessed and communicated.
Usually the emissary of an enemy army, sent to negotiate terms under flag of truce, is well-understood to be a member of that army and a party to their aggression.

Quote:
This is also what happened with the Taliban. The negotiators in Qatar were far more moderate.
Carrot and stick are well-recognized tools of extortion. The extortionist that offers the carrot as an alternative is complicit in the same extortion racket as his partner who is offering the stick.

Sinn Fein wasn't a disinterested third party, trying to bring peace as a neutral facilitator of negotiations. They were the IRA's political arm, trying to advance a terrorist agenda by offering more terrorism as an alternative to negotiating with them.

I'm not saying you should never negotiate with terrorists. I'm just saying you should be clear that's what's going on.
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Old 13th September 2021, 01:09 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Okay Americans and the rest of the western world should just resign themselves to being killed by Terrorists...
Breathtaking in its ignorance.

How many Al Qaeda attacks have there been, and how many killed - apart from 9/11?

I can't be bothered checking, but I'd lay odds that outside of 9/11 sharks have killed more people than Al Qaeda since 2000 in the western world.

I love the way you see them as this threat to humankind, when it's clear their attacks have been on people who have attacked them and their kin first.

Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
... without doing anything about it because doing something is "stupid", "dumb and "wouldn't didn't work".
Not wouldn't work, did not work.

Want evidence? Here you go: https://www.wsj.com/articles/in-tali...er-11629990056

Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Presumably you'd be the first one to offer your family's heads to Al-Qaeda?


Yeah mate, my family is under threat from Al Qaeda.

What on earth are you drinking?

I quickly estimated the odds, and my family is more likely to be shot with a crossbow by a transgender elephant at the top of Mt Everest than be killed by Al Qaeda.

Hey, thanks for one thing, though - people tried to tell me Assange was right to avoid Sweden because of the pro-US/rendition attitude there and I wasn't convinced that was correct.

Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
In that regard the US and NATO response has actually been highly successful. The sole reason that the Taliban were able to persist in Afghanistan had nothing to do with 9/11 or Al-Qaeda but rather Pakistan's continuing support for the Taliban. They would not have been able to achieve nearly the same success without that help.
Gee, and now the Yanks have run home to mommy's apple pie, what do you think is going to happen?

Hint: read the link to WSJ.

Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
How about you explain your rambling insane reasoning instead of insulting me?
I didn't insult you - I pointed out your post is word salad.

That appears to be your problem rather than mine.

Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
So you actually meant that they should have bombed the Flight school in America?
I suspect it's not so much a comprehension problem as a deliberate attempt to deflect from the silly post, but what the heck.

Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
You are more deranged than i thought.
That's an insult. See if you can spot the difference between what I'm saying and what you posted.

Nothing cheers me up like people telling me I'm deranged when I point out the hypocrisy and stupidity of America's military actions.

Hey, I believe Granada turned out ok! Top effort.
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Old 13th September 2021, 01:25 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Funny you should mention that.

If I recall my history right, USA stayed completely out of WWII until the Japs sent you an invitation you couldn't refuse.
You recall your history wrong. The US was already giving assistance to the UK at that point, and was already gearing up for open war with the Axis. They weren't all in yet, but they were very much more than "completely out".
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Old 13th September 2021, 02:37 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You recall your history wrong. The US was already giving assistance to the UK at that point,....
That's a point I'd love to discuss in another thread if you want to go there, because my history - of the shipping at least - says the Yanks gave us a load of clapped-out, smoke-belching, slow, death traps of ships they didn't need any more.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
... and was already gearing up for open war with the Axis. They weren't all in yet, but they were very much more than "completely out".
Again, way off topic, so I'll just note that my take on that was that it was entirely Japanese growth and belligerence that drove that.
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Old 13th September 2021, 05:02 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Breathtaking in its ignorance.

How many Al Qaeda attacks have there been, and how many killed - apart from 9/11?

I can't be bothered checking, but I'd lay odds that outside of 9/11 sharks have killed more people than Al Qaeda since 2000 in the western world.
I will take that bet.

Shark attack fatalities 2000-2016 = 75 approx (excluding 9/11 of course)

Al Quaeda attack fatalities 2000-2016 = 4813 approx (excluding 9/11 of course)

It is like you never check anything, ever.
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Old 13th September 2021, 05:12 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
I will take that bet.

Shark attack fatalities 2000-2016 = 75 approx (excluding 9/11 of course)

Al Quaeda attack fatalities 2000-2016 = 4813 approx (excluding 9/11 of course)

It is like you never check anything, ever.
References?
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