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Old 11th September 2021, 08:47 AM   #41
dann
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Oh for pity's sake. I know more than a few white kids that got through school without adequate reading and writing skills.

Me too. And the ones I know are all white.
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Old 11th September 2021, 08:51 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Why bother the cashier? When I (very rarely) use cash at a supermarket, I put the extra coin, if that suits me, into the machine, the computer does the rest and gives me back the correct amount in coins.
The $2 and a penny happens so rarely that kids can't be expected to know about the custom. It's up to you to consider what you want: the 24 cents in small coins or having to deliver a long explanation about what you are trying to accomplish. Don't blame the kids because you are living in the past. Use plastic.
Already addressed, catch up before chastising. My beach town is largely cash-only. Every retail establishment I've ever seen still has a cash register. Also, some people don't want their monthly bank statements to be 70 pages long of tiny purchases, so use cash for grabbing a coffee or picking up milk.

Eta: serious question: would you be confused by the $2 and a penny? In the states, a quarter dollar coin still has use. A pocket full of pennies, nickels and dimes does not. Plus the cashier probably needs the small change to have enough to make small change for others. It actually helps both of us to do it the way I do.
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Old 11th September 2021, 08:55 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I'd bet you have seen similar behavior and just didn't notice or generally take notes on odd behaviors. I do.

I live in a resort town where a staggering majority of businesses are "cash only" (buncha tax dodgers) and see this often enough where it is glaring. My kids have even commented on it.
Problem with this type of occurrence.

It was being said when I was a kid in the 1970s, so I was one of these kids who weren't apparently able to handle change as adroitly as my elders. So when were these skills taught and cultivated and were a positive skill to have? Well it has to be before we had widespread "electronic" tills (now terminals) i.e mid 1970s onwards, in other words never in my adult lifetime.

It certainly wasn't taught when I was in school in the 70s (how to "make change" in such a way). And it wasn't in my grandmother's education in the 1910s or my mother's in the 1940s (in the family we've talked about this in the past). This was a skill you learnt via experience, a shop worker who worked the tills would be an expert because of their experience, the rest of us merely picked up bits and pieces, to expect kids to be as good as an adult with decades of experience in making change seems to be rather harsh.

When did an education system teach these skills in making change? I suspect never if we can't find it in different education systems spread over a period of 60 years and more.

It says absolutely nothing about the education system "kids today" are put through.
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Old 11th September 2021, 10:47 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Problem with this type of occurrence.

It was being said when I was a kid in the 1970s, so I was one of these kids who weren't apparently able to handle change as adroitly as my elders. So when were these skills taught and cultivated and were a positive skill to have? Well it has to be before we had widespread "electronic" tills (now terminals) i.e mid 1970s onwards, in other words never in my adult lifetime.

It certainly wasn't taught when I was in school in the 70s (how to "make change" in such a way). And it wasn't in my grandmother's education in the 1910s or my mother's in the 1940s (in the family we've talked about this in the past). This was a skill you learnt via experience, a shop worker who worked the tills would be an expert because of their experience, the rest of us merely picked up bits and pieces, to expect kids to be as good as an adult with decades of experience in making change seems to be rather harsh.
What makes it harsh? As I said, more than once, and even in the post you are referring to, I live in a largely cash-only beach town. These local kids (late teens and young adults, really) have been using coins pretty much exactly as often as you and I did.

And we are not talking about some arcane skill; it's child level math and a little tiny bit of flexible thinking.

Quote:
When did an education system teach these skills in making change? I suspect never if we can't find it in different education systems spread over a period of 60 years and more.

It says absolutely nothing about the education system "kids today" are put through.
You make my point for me. I led off with this saying it was "semi related". Not even strictly related, just 'semi' so. It's an odd rigidity of thinking I am noticing, more so than this vaunted coin-counting Olympic level skillset you seem to take it as.

Why it is semi-related is that I suspect our educational system has become more ridgid and standardized, leaving kids thinking in a binary way.
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Old 11th September 2021, 04:32 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
First link is about marketing and the conclusions drawn about why are nothing more than speculation.

Second link which obviously has a right-wing bias buried this paragraph below the fold:The issue with the tests was that teachers ended up teaching to the test instead of teaching the subjects overall.

That bill is about standardized tests, not about dumbing down any curriculum.


There is an actual issue and the OP and links don't address it. That is the problem of teachers passing kids who shouldn't pass. That has been a problem for decades. What should be happening is kids getting extra work and help when they aren't passing the classes. Standardized tests are not solving the problem.


And by the way, what's with the BS racism that somehow the standardized tests were a racial issue? I don't see anything supporting that assertion in either link.
Overall I am glad that we agree this is an issue. Let me provide some more background on my main assertion.

The discussion about reading level being an indication of systemic racism was based off of a Washington Post article about a 2019 NAEP study on reading and other achievement levels

Quote:
NAEP is known as the “nation’s report card,” the largest nationally representative and continuing assessment of U.S. students in various subjects.

The percentage of each group’s achievement levels was reported as advanced, proficient, basic and below basic, or very good, good, good enough and worrying. The national results in eighth-grade reading were: 4 percent at advanced, 29 percent at proficient, 39 percent at basic and 28 percent at below basic. One-third above average, nearly one-third below average.

This looks something like a bell curve — a normal distribution, what one would expect from many studies of large samples.

But reading ability is not something like height, weight or breakfast cereal preferences. It’s a vital skill, essential for education and adult life. Imagine if a pharmacy filled orders for important medications in such a way that nearly a third of the prescriptions were incorrect. That would not be tolerated. Yet we tolerate the education equivalent.

That is the outcome for the entire public school population. NAEP did not stop there. It then analyzed the data in a number of different ways, one of which was by race/ethnicity. Twelve percent of Asian/Pacific Islander students were at the advanced level, 42 percent were at proficient, 31 percent were at basic and 15 percent were at below basic; it’s something like a bell curve skewed a bit to the right.

Achievement outcomes for White non-Hispanic students (whom NAEP calls “White”) were something like a bell curve skewed to the left: 5 percent at advanced, 36 percent at proficient, 39 percent at basic and 19 percent below basic.

Outcomes for Hispanic students were heavily skewed to the left: 1 percent at advanced, 20 percent at proficient, 40 percent at basic and 38 percent at below basic.

Outcomes for Black students were even more heavily skewed to the left: 1 percent at advanced, 14 percent at proficient, 39 percent at basic and 47 percent — nearly half — at below basic.
Overall I agree with the premise of the article. The fact that there are these serious achievement gaps, and people think the education system is working fine, and have been taking efforts to make these gaps worse is wrong.

These are serious problems that should be addressed. I feel that the actions to commit less effort to solving these problems, and effectively place in policies that will increase this gap seems seriously unjust and wrong to me.
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Old 11th September 2021, 05:03 PM   #46
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They way schools are funded in the USA guarantees terrible education. Poor, locally-funded school boards can't afford to do it right.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/07/m...education.html
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Old 11th September 2021, 07:17 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by The Common Potato View Post
Is there such a thing as a 25 cent coin? If there isn't, I can see why the sales staff would be perplexed.
Reminds me I forgot to mention how many minimart counters have a penny dish: take a penny leave a penny.

I suppose these cashiers never asked what it was for.
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Old 11th September 2021, 07:22 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I'd bet you have seen similar behavior and just didn't notice or generally take notes on odd behaviors. I do.

I live in a resort town where a staggering majority of businesses are "cash only" (buncha tax dodgers) and see this often enough where it is glaring. My kids have even commented on it.
Post a study or something more relevant that cynical 'kids these days' anecdotes.

Tell me how is it no one gave these cashiers extra change to make the return change come out with more even coinage/dollars until you came along? Does that not seem the least bit odd to you?
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Old 11th September 2021, 07:27 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Problem with this type of occurrence.

It was being said when I was a kid in the 1970s, so I was one of these kids who weren't apparently able to handle change as adroitly as my elders. So when were these skills taught and cultivated and were a positive skill to have? Well it has to be before we had widespread "electronic" tills (now terminals) i.e mid 1970s onwards, in other words never in my adult lifetime.

It certainly wasn't taught when I was in school in the 70s (how to "make change" in such a way). And it wasn't in my grandmother's education in the 1910s or my mother's in the 1940s (in the family we've talked about this in the past). This was a skill you learnt via experience, a shop worker who worked the tills would be an expert because of their experience, the rest of us merely picked up bits and pieces, to expect kids to be as good as an adult with decades of experience in making change seems to be rather harsh.

When did an education system teach these skills in making change? I suspect never if we can't find it in different education systems spread over a period of 60 years and more.

It says absolutely nothing about the education system "kids today" are put through.
I'm telling you, kids these days.

I get it some new cashiers and probably even more kids who are not cashiers don't know how to make change. But it's nonsense that once one has been on the job for more than a week one would not learn what to do with extra coins.

I don't believe the vast majority of 'kids these days cashiers' can't understand a simple concept.
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Old 11th September 2021, 07:35 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Overall I am glad that we agree this is an issue. Let me provide some more background on my main assertion.
I don't agree with your racist OP. Don't try to make it sound like I do.

Quote:
The discussion about reading level being an indication of systemic racism was based off of a Washington Post article about a 2019 NAEP study on reading and other achievement levels
Is that link in your OP? Does that one article confirm your bias? Look at the title of your thread. You claimed getting rid of standardized tests somehow was an effort to dumb down school curricula so black kids could pass.

Your links didn't support any such assertion nor does trying to discuss a very complex topic in some oversimplified racist way. I'm not going there.

Your thread is a fail.
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Old 11th September 2021, 08:46 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Some states including California and Oregon have decided that the best way to address racial inequities in graduation rates and grade levels is to dumb down curriculum and standards.
The motivation might be racist but there is a more fundamental reason why education is being dumbed down. No jobs.

Many decades ago, a child could leave school and walk straight into an entry level job. However, those jobs have been gradually decreasing until we have been forced to choose between having hordes of kids roaming the streets all day or forcing them to remain in school longer.

Since the latter is the only real option, we have to dumb down the system so that they can't drop out. Ditto for colleges. We have to lower the entry standards so that the high school graduates can still get in.
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Old 11th September 2021, 09:57 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I don't agree with your racist OP. Don't try to make it sound like I do.

Is that link in your OP? Does that one article confirm your bias? Look at the title of your thread. You claimed getting rid of standardized tests somehow was an effort to dumb down school curricula so black kids could pass.

Your links didn't support any such assertion nor does trying to discuss a very complex topic in some oversimplified racist way. I'm not going there.

Your thread is a fail.
The point of this thread is to oppose measures that increase the levels of systemic racism and achievement gaps in schools.

There is nothing really controversial about the facts that show the gaps in educational proficiency. The fact that those gaps statistically will more likely lead to negative issues, and reduces chances at financial mobility for the rest of the affected students lives, is also not controversial. If we all agree that those achievement gaps are an issue in schools, then it is really not a stretch to say that making policies that reduces pressure to fix those gaps will exacerbate those problems.

If we are being honest, the only thing that you have had a problem with is that the ones instituting these systemically racist policies are Democrats.

If you are only interested in making progress towards racial justice if you or your party can get credit for it, than I think it is time to reassess your priorities. Sometimes, pointing out a mistake in your own parties actions is far more important than feeling self righteous about our flawless actions.
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Old 11th September 2021, 11:42 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Eta: serious question: would you be confused by the $2 and a penny?

I wouldn't, but I know about an awful lot of things that confuse me and don't confuse the kids working as cashiers.

Quote:
In the states, a quarter dollar coin still has use. A pocket full of pennies, nickels and dimes does not. Plus the cashier probably needs the small change to have enough to make small change for others. It actually helps both of us to do it the way I do.

At my local supermarket, I can put all those coins into the machine next to the cashier, which then counts and subtracts them from the total amount I have to pay. That machine confused me the first time I saw it and had no idea what it was. Now it helps both of us!
(A very long time ago, I decided that I would not become the kind of old guy I occasionally had to deal with when I was young! You know, the kind who complained about young people back then no longer having the skills that had become obsolete since they were young.)
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Old 12th September 2021, 12:01 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The motivation might be racist but there is a more fundamental reason why education is being dumbed down. No jobs....
Where is the evidence of anything being dumbed down? It certainly isn't included in the OP.

What we are seeing is a backlash to standardized testing. There are many opinions about those tests. But eliminating them doesn't say anything about dumbing anything down. If teachers mostly teach to the test, what are they trading for that?

Address the problems of teachers passing kids that shouldn't be passed. Maybe the standardized tests were addressing that. Maybe they weren't. In order to find out we need a lot more data than there is in this discussion.
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Old 12th September 2021, 12:05 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
The point of this thread is to oppose measures that increase the levels of systemic racism and achievement gaps in schools.

There is nothing really controversial about the facts that show the gaps in educational proficiency. The fact that those gaps statistically will more likely lead to negative issues, and reduces chances at financial mobility for the rest of the affected students lives, is also not controversial. If we all agree that those achievement gaps are an issue in schools, then it is really not a stretch to say that making policies that reduces pressure to fix those gaps will exacerbate those problems.

If we are being honest, the only thing that you have had a problem with is that the ones instituting these systemically racist policies are Democrats.

If you are only interested in making progress towards racial justice if you or your party can get credit for it, than I think it is time to reassess your priorities. Sometimes, pointing out a mistake in your own parties actions is far more important than feeling self righteous about our flawless actions.
You have not made your case. Your whole spiel here is you making overly broad assumptions. You have not shown that schools are dumbing down anything let alone that it is so black kids can graduate.
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Old 12th September 2021, 03:42 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Why bother the cashier? When I (very rarely) use cash at a supermarket, I put the extra coin, if that suits me, into the machine, the computer does the rest and gives me back the correct amount in coins.
The $2 and a penny happens so rarely that kids can't be expected to know about the custom. It's up to you to consider what you want: the 24 cents in small coins or having to deliver a long explanation about what you are trying to accomplish. Don't blame the kids because you are living in the past. Use plastic.
Just to understand you, are you saying basic arithmetic ability is of no importance to young people? It seems so from your “living in the past” comment.
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Old 12th September 2021, 05:35 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Where is the evidence of anything being dumbed down? It certainly isn't included in the OP.
Have you got any evidence that the educational standard is as high as ever?

Maybe you don't believe that you have to demonstrate this. If there is no absolute proof that educational standards will drop if failure is removed from the school system the I guess you are arguing that the change must be implemented no matter what.
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Old 12th September 2021, 07:33 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Just to understand you, are you saying basic arithmetic ability is of no importance to young people? It seems so from your “living in the past” comment.
I think the issue is that, specifically for the "change" problem, people are underestimating the role played by repetition and pattern recognition.

I think when you have made change thousands of times, hearing "and seventy-six cents" triggers a reaction based on experience rather than calculation.

For young people, they haven't done it as much, and that was true back when our dads were complaining of the same phenomenon in the days before calculators. However, it is made much worse now, becuase the kids are even less likely to deal with those issues. First, cash registers started telling people how much change to give, or even automatically dumping change for you. Then, people stopped using cash altogether, so they never even had the experience of wishing they just had a quarter instead of those six coins they got in change.
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Old 12th September 2021, 07:35 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Have you got any evidence that the educational standard is as high as ever? ...snip...
Why should Skeptic Ginger provide data for something she hasn't claimed?
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Old 12th September 2021, 07:46 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Just to understand you, are you saying basic arithmetic ability is of no importance to young people? It seems so from your “living in the past” comment.

It is of no importance for the job function. Working as a cashier no longer requires those skills.
I have a little experience working at a cash register as far back as in the eighties when it still required that I typed in the prices. Nowadays, it requires focus but almost no thinking skills at all. This makes it even more confusing when somebody suddenly does something that you aren't used to and which requires some kind of response. The cashier becomes an appendix to the machinery, as Marx would have put it, which is mind-numbing.

And as SkepticGinger has already pointed out, this probably happens so rarely nowadays that some cashiers have never had the experience. I was surprised the first time I paid with bills + a couple of small coins in the hope of getting back a coin that might actually be useful (something akin to the quarter in Danish currency) and the cashier pointed at the coin-counting machine - which was also where the useful coin then appeared.

It was a new experience to me as I imagine it also was for the cashier being handed Thermal's coins.

ETA: Denmark got rid of anything smaller than (approximately) dimes years ago!
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Old 12th September 2021, 08:10 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why should Skeptic Ginger provide data for something she hasn't claimed?
Educational standards are either as high as ever or they have been dumbed down. Guess which position SG has taken?
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Old 12th September 2021, 09:04 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
It is of no importance for the job function. Working as a cashier no longer requires those skills.
We are still not talking about arcane skills. We are talking about third grade addition and subtraction and poodle-level reasoning abilities.

Quote:
I have a little experience working at a cash register as far back as in the eighties when it still required that I typed in the prices. Nowadays, it requires focus but almost no thinking skills at all. This makes it even more confusing when somebody suddenly does something that you aren't used to and which requires some kind of response. The cashier becomes an appendix to the machinery, as Marx would have put it, which is mind-numbing.
You are literally claiming that... sentience.... has become an outdated skill. Mind-numbing, indeed.

Quote:
And as SkepticGinger has already pointed out, this probably happens so rarely nowadays that some cashiers have never had the experience. I was surprised the first time I paid with bills + a couple of small coins in the hope of getting back a coin that might actually be useful (something akin to the quarter in Danish currency) and the cashier pointed at the coin-counting machine - which was also where the useful coin then appeared.

It was a new experience to me as I imagine it also was for the cashier being handed Thermal's coins.
Except that as Thermal has said several times now, it's an overwhelmingly cash-only beach town, where the local workers have been using coins as much as when I grew up.

Actually, you may be right. You seem to be doing exactly what I see them doing, ie being unwilling or unable to process what is presented, and being locked into responding to stimuli, but with you responding to keywords out of context. No matter how many times I say it is a cash-only town, you treat it as if the teens never heard of cash or change. Teens, btw, who handle calculus in their local high school.

Quote:
ETA: Denmark got rid of anything smaller than (approximately) dimes years ago!
Which many of us advocate here in the States.

Also, the little change thingy you mentioned at cash registers sounds very helpful. Never saw one here. Here, you tend to see a donation cup for a charity that keeps half (or more) of the take.
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Old 12th September 2021, 09:35 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Educational standards are either as high as ever or they have been dumbed down. Guess which position SG has taken?
The claim she is addressing is the claim in the opening post. It up to those like yourself to provide evidence for your claim.
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Old 12th September 2021, 11:32 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Have you got any evidence that the educational standard is as high as ever?
You mean because the OP has no evidence now I'm supposed to post evidence he is wrong?

Originally Posted by psion
Maybe you don't believe that you have to demonstrate this. If there is no absolute proof that educational standards will drop if failure is removed from the school system the I guess you are arguing that the change must be implemented no matter what.
To review: the OP asserts that dropping standardized tests is evidence the schools are dumbing down so black kids can graduate.

His link is about the OR legislature dropping standardized tests. Nothing else. There's no evidence the standardized tests raised educational standards. There's no evidence dropping the testing had anything to do with lowering any bar let alone dropping the bar so black kids could pass.

Here's what HB said in case people don't remember:
Originally Posted by HB in the OP
Some states including California and Oregon have decided that the best way to address racial inequities in graduation rates and grade levels is to dumb down curriculum and standards. These ideas including that "math is racist," and other denunciations of core educational components, are based on the very ironically racist notion that people of color cannot mentally handle basic educational subjects.
Not one word in that assertion is supported by his link except that there is legislation in OR to end standardized tests. The one relevant link (because the other isn't) says this:
Quote:
Proponents of dropping the longstanding requirement to demonstrate the ability to read, write and do math at about a 10th-grade level say students who pass all classes required for graduation shouldn’t have to do more.

Many of them are deeply critical of standardized tests. But Oregon gives students the option to demonstrate proficiency with in-depth work done at school and graded by their own teachers. And some concede that if the bill is approved, as expected, students who can’t write very well or do elementary algebra would nonetheless be allowed to graduate without the school having to teach them more.
There is not one word about black students (people of color) in the link. Instead there is support for dropping the tests by a special ed teacher.
Quote:
Rep. Zach Hudson, a Troutdale Democrat who teaches special education math at Reynolds High, said for too many of his students, having to prove their proficiency in math is “that axe of ‘Yeah you’re not going to graduate’ hanging over them.”
There's a reference to not all kids are going off to college:
Quote:
The provision to cancel the requirement that Oregon schools get all students proficient in the three core skills by the end of high school is in a bill requiring an in-depth examination and likely update of Oregon’s graduation requirements. Such a reexamination is almost universally supported. Oregon might, for instance, set differentiated requirements for students who opt for a career tech or fine arts focus in their high school educations.
The OP is racist without noting anything about the multiple reasons for dropping standardized tests.


This thread needs to die and if someone wants the discuss the pros and cons of standardized tests, or of the problems with public schools, or of the reasons and solutions for improving outcomes for kids of color who don't do as well as white kids overall then they should start a new thread.
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Old 12th September 2021, 11:36 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
...
And as SkepticGinger has already pointed out, this probably happens so rarely nowadays that some cashiers have never had the experience....
I didn't say that! I said the opposite: it happens often enough the assertion cashiers don't understand it when given extra coins to make the change come out a certain way makes no sense.
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Old 12th September 2021, 12:13 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
To review: the OP asserts that dropping standardized tests is evidence the schools are dumbing down so black kids can graduate.

His link is about the OR legislature dropping standardized tests. Nothing else. There's no evidence the standardized tests raised educational standards. There's no evidence dropping the testing had anything to do with lowering any bar let alone dropping the bar so black kids could pass.

Here's what HB said in case people don't remember:

Not one word in that assertion is supported by his link except that there is legislation in OR to end standardized tests. The one relevant link (because the other isn't) says this:

There is not one word about black students (people of color) in the link. Instead there is support for dropping the tests by a special ed teacher.


There's a reference to not all kids are going off to college:

The OP is racist without noting anything about the multiple reasons for dropping standardized tests.

This thread needs to die and if someone wants the discuss the pros and cons of standardized tests, or of the problems with public schools, or of the reasons and solutions for improving outcomes for kids of color who don't do as well as white kids overall then they should start a new thread.
The systematic racism issue that I brought up in this thread is the issue, not highlighting that racism.

Gov. Kate Brown signed a law to allow Oregon students to graduate without proving they can write or do math.

Quote:
For the next five years, an Oregon high school diploma will be no guarantee that the student who earned it can read, write or do math at a high school level...

Charles Boyle, the governor’s deputy communications director, said in an emailed statement that suspending the reading, writing and math proficiency requirements.. will benefit “Oregon’s Black, Latino, Latina, Latinx, Indigenous, Asian, Pacific Islander, Tribal, and students of color.”
As I have said, the problem that you have with this is that the group creating bills that worsen achievement gaps and the systemic racism that goes along with it, are Democrats.

If you are more interested in party loyalty rather than racial justice, it shows that this is just a vanity issue to make yourself feel self righteously high and mighty, rather than actually making positive change.
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Old 12th September 2021, 12:43 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The claim she is addressing is the claim in the opening post. It up to those like yourself to provide evidence for your claim.
There definitely is evidence that there are problematic achievement gaps based on race in this country. In addition there is also a problem with graduation rates. Increasing graduation rates by reducing the requirements to adequately teach students will increase graduation rates. However it does so at the cost of worsening the achievement gaps, and putting more students of color at a greater disadvantage. There are not many cases were people are purposefully choosing policies to increase systemic racism, but this is one of those cases.

One of the implied messages of this thread is about the consequences of group think and polarization of the parties on the implementation of our policies. As we have become more and more polarized, we have pushed more blind loyalty through the moral justification of our sides. Because of that, we are having fewer dialogues with opposing sides, and fewer people are questioning policies of their own party.

Even though efforts to reduce systemic racism has traditionally been important for the Democratic party, as we have seen from Skeptic Ginger, there is an issue when having to choose between party loyalty and social justice. This is certainly not the only case where people have chosen party loyalty over issues that they traditionally would support.
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Old 12th September 2021, 08:54 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
And? What's the issue?

I think for most of my life I would have agreed that this was ridiculous, but I think that's just because I never really thought about what the purpose was for a high school diploma. Once upon a time, it meant something about academic skills, but, realistically, that was a very long time in the past. Decades ago employers figured out that high school diplomas no longer were a guarantee of academic ability. I'm not sure they ever have been that, but I'm certain they haven't been that in my adult lifetime.

if an employer wants to know if a candidate can read, maybe the employer should give the candidate a reading test? Why should the State of Oregon be doing pre-employment screening?



On a lot of your other points, I have often found myself saying the same things, so I agree, in principle. I'm just not sure that the real policies you cite have anything to do with the problems you wish to point out. In particular, I'm not sure that changing, and, realistically that means acknowledging, what a high school diploma means in the modern world is a horrible thing.
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Old 12th September 2021, 08:59 PM   #69
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As for other points in the OP, including the idea that "wrong answers" are racist, I agree that's dumb as all heck. I just don't know how much influence that kind of stupidity has outside of an occasional teacher conference or academic journal. Is that idiocy actually reaching the classroom level? If so, that's bad.
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Old 13th September 2021, 04:22 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
There definitely is evidence that there are problematic achievement gaps based on race in this country. In addition there is also a problem with graduation rates. Increasing graduation rates by reducing the requirements to adequately teach students will increase graduation rates. However it does so at the cost of worsening the achievement gaps, and putting more students of color at a greater disadvantage. There are not many cases were people are purposefully choosing policies to increase systemic racism, but this is one of those cases.

One of the implied messages of this thread is about the consequences of group think and polarization of the parties on the implementation of our policies. As we have become more and more polarized, we have pushed more blind loyalty through the moral justification of our sides. Because of that, we are having fewer dialogues with opposing sides, and fewer people are questioning policies of their own party.

Even though efforts to reduce systemic racism has traditionally been important for the Democratic party, as we have seen from Skeptic Ginger, there is an issue when having to choose between party loyalty and social justice. This is certainly not the only case where people have chosen party loyalty over issues that they traditionally would support.
As I said it is up to you to provide evidence for your many claims.
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Old 13th September 2021, 04:25 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That's simply a result of bad training.

The McDonald's training is to check the money the customer hands you and to enter the exact money you were handed into the till. The reason is to use an old-fashioned phrase I really miss all about "time and motion" studies, she increased the interaction time by querying what you had handed her, which slows down the transaction rate, simply entering it into the till would have taken less time with the exact same result for you the customer. Plus of course it means there is one more negatively slanted story about the business out there.
This reminds me (I hope I'm not straying too far from the topic) but here in Japan, a lot of stores no longer involve handing cash money to a cashier at all anymore. Both my local grocery stores and nearby convenience stores now have machines that the customer uses to pay. There are several cashless options to pay, but if you want to pay with cash, you put the bills and/or coins into the machine yourself, and collect your change yourself. The person behind the counter never has to touch your money.
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Old 13th September 2021, 09:08 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
And? What's the issue?

I think for most of my life I would have agreed that this was ridiculous, but I think that's just because I never really thought about what the purpose was for a high school diploma. Once upon a time, it meant something about academic skills, but, realistically, that was a very long time in the past. Decades ago employers figured out that high school diplomas no longer were a guarantee of academic ability. I'm not sure they ever have been that, but I'm certain they haven't been that in my adult lifetime.

if an employer wants to know if a candidate can read, maybe the employer should give the candidate a reading test? Why should the State of Oregon be doing pre-employment screening?



On a lot of your other points, I have often found myself saying the same things, so I agree, in principle. I'm just not sure that the real policies you cite have anything to do with the problems you wish to point out. In particular, I'm not sure that changing, and, realistically that means acknowledging, what a high school diploma means in the modern world is a horrible thing.
Thank you for the post Meadmaker, there are a number of areas that I agree with you on. However, I worry that these moves will worsen achievement gaps.

Right now there is pressure on students, parents, teachers, principals, and school district administrators to teach basic educational fundamentals for graduation. If you take that away, there would less reasons for students and teachers to strive for educational success as it would have no bearing on their graduation.

Do you remember when teachers would say "don't worry, this is not on the test." Imagine if they would say, "don't worry this is not on the test, and even if it was, you will pass even if you don't get any of it right." For people who are struggling, it takes the pressure off in both a good and a bad way.

Systemic racism often focuses on the wealth gap, wage gap, and job gap between different races. If we are taking an education system that already is failing to equitably teach or students, and put in policies that worsen those proficiency gaps, than we are creating more of a gap between those who get the needed qualifications for employment. Basic reading, writing, and math jobs are important for medium paying, and even some low paying jobs. Even if there are jobs that do not require it, those are lower paying jobs, and an education system that pushes a larger percentage of people of color into lower paying jobs is absolutely increasing systemic racism even if their use the justification of equity to make those changes.

The differences in those wages affects who has money for emergency expenses, who has money for college, for houses, etc. It definitely has domino implications for how families will be able to provide opportunities for themselves and their children.

While school administrators may be able to pat themselves on their backs for higher graduation rates, it worsens the gap for job skills, and puts less pressure on them to equitably serve their students.
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Old 13th September 2021, 10:07 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Thank you for the post Meadmaker, there are a number of areas that I agree with you on. However, I worry that these moves will worsen achievement gaps.

Right now there is pressure on students, parents, teachers, principals, and school district administrators to teach basic educational fundamentals for graduation. If you take that away, there would less reasons for students and teachers to strive for educational success as it would have no bearing on their graduation.

Do you remember when teachers would say "don't worry, this is not on the test." Imagine if they would say, "don't worry this is not on the test, and even if it was, you will pass even if you don't get any of it right." For people who are struggling, it takes the pressure off in both a good and a bad way.

Systemic racism often focuses on the wealth gap, wage gap, and job gap between different races. If we are taking an education system that already is failing to equitably teach or students, and put in policies that worsen those proficiency gaps, than we are creating more of a gap between those who get the needed qualifications for employment. Basic reading, writing, and math jobs are important for medium paying, and even some low paying jobs. Even if there are jobs that do not require it, those are lower paying jobs, and an education system that pushes a larger percentage of people of color into lower paying jobs is absolutely increasing systemic racism even if their use the justification of equity to make those changes.

The differences in those wages affects who has money for emergency expenses, who has money for college, for houses, etc. It definitely has domino implications for how families will be able to provide opportunities for themselves and their children.

While school administrators may be able to pat themselves on their backs for higher graduation rates, it worsens the gap for job skills, and puts less pressure on them to equitably serve their students.
I share your concerns. It certainly is an odd thing to do. However, I just wonder if there isn't more to the story. Maybe what is really happening is a shift of focus away from a diploma and more toward other standards.

When I say, "I wonder". I mean that literally. I didn't look deeply into the issue. When I googled, the few articles that looked like they might have some substance were paywalled, and I didn't bother to cheat the paywall. Or, they were "outrage pieces", i.e. "Look what the stupid libs are doing now to destroy America!" I haven't seen anything defending it. So, I don't know the motivation behind it, or even the avowed motivation. I would hope that they aren't so stupid that all they are doing is saying that we need higher graduation rates, so let's just call everyone a graduate. I'll try to look up more to see if I can understand the actual idea behind it.
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Old 14th September 2021, 06:20 AM   #74
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I looked up the Oregon law.

What it did was eliminate a standardized test requirement, but students still had to pass classes where proficiency had to be proved. In other words, Oregon's current graduation requirement is exactly the same as the graduation requirements in place when I went to school. Given that fact, it's hard for me to say that this means education in Oregon is going to Hell in a handbasket.
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Old 14th September 2021, 06:37 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I looked up the Oregon law.

What it did was eliminate a standardized test requirement, but students still had to pass classes where proficiency had to be proved. In other words, Oregon's current graduation requirement is exactly the same as the graduation requirements in place when I went to school. Given that fact, it's hard for me to say that this means education in Oregon is going to Hell in a handbasket.
The heavy reliance on standardized testing was one of the more controversial elements of the Bush era "No Child Left Behind" policy.

Critics of these tests often claim they are a waste of classroom time that could be used much more productively. The common complaint is that emphasizing standardized testing, especially when funding is tied to test results, creates a perverse incentive for schools to narrow their education only towards teaching students how to perform well on these tests.
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Old 14th September 2021, 07:00 AM   #76
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The idea that education is degrading over time is hard to square with the Flynn Effect.
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Old 14th September 2021, 09:41 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
We are still not talking about arcane skills. We are talking about third grade addition and subtraction and poodle-level reasoning abilities.

No, we're not. We are talking about a cashier who doesn't know what you want him/her to do with extra coin(s). You interpret this as an inability to add and subtract.

Quote:
You are literally claiming that... sentience.... has become an outdated skill. Mind-numbing, indeed.

I am claiming that a cashier's job nowadays doesn't require the ability to add and subtract. The cash register (or whatever it's called nowadays) has rendered it superfluous for the job as a cashier - at least in my local supermarkets. The cashier still needs to be sentient, for now. You may not have noticed, but in big supermarkets nowadays cashiers have been replaced by people who watch the customers register and pay for their own purchases digitally. The staff is only there to make sure that the customers actually do so and don't leave without paying.
No adding and subtracting at all. And no Thermal to try to pick an argument with the machinery.

Quote:
Except that as Thermal has said several times now, it's an overwhelmingly cash-only beach town, where the local workers have been using coins as much as when I grew up.

Your beach town is very different from my beach towns.

Quote:
Actually, you may be right. You seem to be doing exactly what I see them doing, ie being unwilling or unable to process what is presented, and being locked into responding to stimuli, but with you responding to keywords out of context. No matter how many times I say it is a cash-only town, you treat it as if the teens never heard of cash or change. Teens, btw, who handle calculus in their local high school.

You are still pretending that this is a question of inability to add and subtract. It isn't. It is your inability to interpret the situation correctly. There is no problem except your inability to understand what is going on, and the fact that you enjoy being offended by your own fantasy. If I went to your beach town (note to self: remember to bring cash!) and had your alleged problem with a cashier, I would come up with the simplest solution in the world: I would use the tool of sentients and tell the cashier what I was trying to achieve with the extra coin(s).
Instead of this simple solution, you came up with this elaborate fantasy about kids' inability to add and subtract!

Quote:
Which many of us advocate here in the States.

Also, the little change thingy you mentioned at cash registers sounds very helpful. Never saw one here. Here, you tend to see a donation cup for a charity that keeps half (or more) of the take.

The change thingy isn't exactly little. It's this black-and-gray machine. (It looks bigger in the photo that it actually is.) Apparently, it also makes it more difficult for robbers to get at the cash.
And the beauty of it is that it will actually give me the coin I was hoping for if I have added and subtracted correctly!

When we recycle bottles and cans at the supermarket, a similar machine gives us the choice between receiving money for the returnables or donating it to charity. Two buttons. No cup.
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Old 14th September 2021, 09:44 AM   #78
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Makes Venn Diagram of people complaining the schools are dumbing down and people who are aggressively wrong about literally everything.

Wow look at that it's a circle.

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Oh so you're not stupid you're just bad at determining whether or not you know anything. How convenient.
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Old 14th September 2021, 09:46 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
The idea that education is degrading over time is hard to square with the Flynn Effect.

Good point!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th September 2021, 09:52 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
This reminds me (I hope I'm not straying too far from the topic) but here in Japan, a lot of stores no longer involve handing cash money to a cashier at all anymore. Both my local grocery stores and nearby convenience stores now have machines that the customer uses to pay. There are several cashless options to pay, but if you want to pay with cash, you put the bills and/or coins into the machine yourself, and collect your change yourself. The person behind the counter never has to touch your money.

In Denmark, most (big!) supermarkets give you the choice between manned and unmanned cash registers. If you choose unmanned where the lines tend to be shorter, you cannot use cash.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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